Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
intothinair
Topic Author
Posts: 479
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 3:05 pm

Airbus offers China Industrial Partnership for A380 Programme

Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:16 pm

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/08/china-h ... jumbo.html

Fantastic news indeed, if China accepts. This will no doubt be a leap frog for more A380 sales, and will help China to further evolve its own Aerospace programme, after a very successful C919 launch!


Cheers,
intothinair
 
User avatar
N14AZ
Posts: 4151
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:19 pm

Re: Airbus offers China Industrial Partnership for A380 Programme

Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:23 pm

Interesting. Will be interesting to see what kind of works will be transferred to China, if they find an agreement.

For example, if it will be cabin outfitting à la A320 and A330, it would be the end of cabin outfitting in XFW. At a production rate of < 1 per month I guess there is no way to divide these works between two production facilities.
 
SFOtoORD
Posts: 1216
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:26 am

Re: Airbus offers China Industrial Partnership for A380 Programme

Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:30 pm

Much like the deal with Bombardier this seems like a management team that is getting very creative to continue to grow their business. Even if this doesn’t happen the thought process is good.
 
BHXLOVER
Posts: 220
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:20 pm

Re: Airbus offers China Industrial Partnership for A380 Programme

Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:42 pm

SFOtoORD wrote:
Much like the deal with Bombardier this seems like a management team that is getting very creative to continue to grow their business. Even if this doesn’t happen the thought process is good.


Agreed.

And with over 1.38 billion people, they should be able to fill a few more A380's themselves !
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8413
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Airbus offers China Industrial Partnership for A380 Programme

Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:49 pm

Interesting move by Airbus. Chinese controlled A380 program. Emirates will throw a fit.
All posts are just opinions.
 
douwd20
Posts: 155
Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 3:45 am

Re: Airbus offers China Industrial Partnership for A380 Programme

Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:57 pm

And somehow this move will magically make airlines want the A380? This is not the same business case as the C-Series.
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Posts: 26968
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

Re: Airbus offers China Industrial Partnership for A380 Programme

Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:00 pm

douwd20 wrote:
And somehow this move will magically make airlines want the A380?


Of course not.

CAAC orders A380s and places them at Chinese carriers, similar to what happens with A320s and A330s.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
tphuang
Posts: 5329
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Airbus offers China Industrial Partnership for A380 Programme

Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:04 pm

I always thought this was the most plausible solution to continue a380. There are plenty of trunk routes in china where a380 could be applied. Chinese air space is tight. All the major airports will be seriously slot constrained. Those major routes could all use a380 capacity.
 
User avatar
BaconButty
Posts: 822
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:42 pm

Re: Airbus offers China Industrial Partnership for A380 Programme

Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:08 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Interesting move by Airbus. Chinese controlled A380 program. Emirates will throw a fit.

Where did you get "controlled" from?

Looks like an interesting move. Depends what moves to China. Cabin outfitting? The FAL? If it generates 30-40 orders from CAAC, added to the 35 that Emirates would presumably order (given they would then get the production guarantees) that's another 6 years production. Could limp it through to the point where the -900NEO happens.
Down with that sort of thing!
 
727200
Posts: 633
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:31 pm

Re: Airbus offers China Industrial Partnership for A380 Programme

Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:10 pm

Desperate times, desperate measures.

Just kill this dinosaur and move on.
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Posts: 26968
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

Re: Airbus offers China Industrial Partnership for A380 Programme

Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:18 pm

Yes President Macron is visiting China this week and brought a gift:

French President Macron offers Xi Jinping a horse from elite presidential cavalry during 3 day trip to China

French President Emmanuel Macron went out of his way to win the heart of the Chinese leader on the first day of his state visit on Monday, offering him a horse of the elite French Republican Guard.


Which brings us to the cartoon of the day:

Image
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 19176
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Airbus offers China Industrial Partnership for A380 Programme

Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:19 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Interesting move by Airbus. Chinese controlled A380 program. Emirates will throw a fit.


In what way will the A380 program be "controlled" by China? :shakehead:

727200 wrote:
Desperate times, desperate measures.


Of course. :wink2:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
DWC
Posts: 607
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:49 pm

Re: Airbus offers China Industrial Partnership for A380 Programme

Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:19 pm

As I explained in another thread, viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1382315&start=63

DWC wrote:
Interestingly, the French Press pay lip service to the FT's suggestion that Airbus would have another "industrial partnership" with China should China buy new A380s. But they do insist that Airbus & France are adamant in strengthening their foothold in China ( and thus in Asia ), which is indispensable for their LT future to fend off somewhat whatever plans China have to develop their own industries.
https://www.boursier.com/actions/actual ... 52743.html
http://www.lemonde.fr/economie/article/ ... _3234.html
While China may indeed learn from Airbus for their own sake, Airbus are also in a unique position there to monitor what is happening while at the same time forging better contacts with decision-making Chinese. I am not suggesting this is enough, but it still is better than nothing, and nowhere else do personal relations matter as in China : it's called "Guangxi". Without "Guangxi", you are basically done for.

The French Press are actually detailing the strategic mission of Macron in China : it is not just to sell airframes, but to sign no less than some 50 contracts in other key areas such as nuclear power & hydraulic networks, Macron is actually flying with some 50 French CEOs. Otherwise put, FT's interesting article to us is actually biased in favour of the sole aeronautics industry & missing the point altogether : France is counter-attacking China's new Silk Road mega programmes, qualified as a "Geo Strategic Hold-up", and "the West" ( France in this case ) wants both to be part of it but also develop strategies of its own.
https://www.latribune.fr/economie/franc ... 63545.html
http://www.lefigaro.fr/conjoncture/2018 ... a-soie.php https://www.lesechos.fr/monde/chine/030 ... 142782.php
 
VSMUT
Posts: 4576
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Airbus offers China Industrial Partnership for A380 Programme

Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:39 pm

douwd20 wrote:
And somehow this move will magically make airlines want the A380? This is not the same business case as the C-Series.


The Chinese market is heavily regulated and restrained by the state. Airlines can't just open new routes or add capacity as they see fit, and the government has curbed the number of flights. If the market was allowed a bit more freedom, it isn't hard to imagine A380s plying the domestic network. It would also solve some of those congestion issues they have.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 4325
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Airbus offers China Industrial Partnership for A380 Programme

Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:41 pm

A range limited stretched 350 (ala 787-10) strikes me as a better big people regional plane than a 380. The 380 cannot be optimized as a regional so far as I know.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24605
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Airbus offers China Industrial Partnership for A380 Programme

Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:46 pm

intothinair wrote:
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/08/china-holds-key-to-future-of-airbus-a380-superjumbo.html

Fantastic news indeed, if China accepts. This will no doubt be a leap frog for more A380 sales, and will help China to further evolve its own Aerospace programme, after a very successful C919 launch!

Cheers,
intothinair

Your link wasn't working for me, permission denied. I was able to read FT ( https://www.ft.com/content/f67dd44e-f34 ... 65a6ce1a00 ) after searching on the title via Google.

Bottom line to me is, what will China learn about aerospace by installing A380 cabins that it is not learning from installing A330 cabins? Probably not much. Therefore if the deal closes, it'll be for political, symbolic reasons.

As suggested in the title, it's just something Airbus is offering to try to move some A380s. If the ploy works, then it's a nice win for Airbus. I give it 50/50 odds.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
douwd20
Posts: 155
Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 3:45 am

Re: Airbus offers China Industrial Partnership for A380 Programme

Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:01 pm

VSMUT wrote:
douwd20 wrote:
And somehow this move will magically make airlines want the A380? This is not the same business case as the C-Series.


The Chinese market is heavily regulated and restrained by the state. Airlines can't just open new routes or add capacity as they see fit, and the government has curbed the number of flights. If the market was allowed a bit more freedom, it isn't hard to imagine A380s plying the domestic network. It would also solve some of those congestion issues they have.


I think it is hard to imagine actually given that chinese airlines had no problems buying the 747.
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Posts: 26968
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

Re: Airbus offers China Industrial Partnership for A380 Programme

Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:06 pm

Revelation wrote:
Bottom line to me is, what will China learn about aerospace by installing A380 cabins that it is not learning from installing A330 cabins? Probably not much. Therefore if the deal closes, it'll be for political, symbolic reasons.


And what is China learning about aerospace by installing A330 cabins that it is not learning from assembling A320s?
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8413
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Airbus offers China Industrial Partnership for A380 Programme

Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:07 pm

There is nothing wrong in giving away the program if it doesn't help company's bottom line. Take a dollar, sign the napkin and walk away.

I don't think Chinese will buy A380s, offset may come in a different form like 500x A32Xs. Example France-India Rafale deal has Dassault Falcon related offsets.
All posts are just opinions.
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Posts: 26968
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

Re: Airbus offers China Industrial Partnership for A380 Programme

Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:20 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
I don't think Chinese will buy A380s, offset may come in a different form like 500x A32Xs. Example France-India Rafale deal has Dassault Falcon related offsets.


What is the whole point of this venture if Chinese airlines will not order more A380s? It's not like those orders would come from other airlines outside China.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
redflyer
Posts: 3905
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:30 am

Re: Airbus offers China Industrial Partnership for A380 Programme

Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:33 pm

tphuang wrote:
I always thought this was the most plausible solution to continue a380. There are plenty of trunk routes in china where a380 could be applied. Chinese air space is tight. All the major airports will be seriously slot constrained. Those major routes could all use a380 capacity.

Slot constraints are a product of the West, where new airport construction and new runway construction have been at a standstill for the past couple of decades. China does not have this restriction. When the demand is there, they will simply bulldoze entire villages and relocate the populace in order to build new airports and/or runways.

But I digress. Slot constraints at airports in the West haven't rendered the A380 a success, either, so what makes anyone think it will be any different in China?
A government big enough to take away a constitutionally guaranteed right is a government big enough to take away any guaranteed right. A government big enough to give you everything you need is a government big enough to take away everything you have.
 
User avatar
william
Posts: 3333
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 1:31 pm

Re: Airbus offers China Industrial Partnership for A380 Programme

Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:38 pm

If the plane is not selling then yes, it is a desperate move. Smart move though, its not like the majority of A380 orders in the future will come from Europe.

Also, what better way for John Leahy to have a final dropping the mike farewell moment by signing a big China A380 order and maybe an EK order. EK gets its 10 year production guarantee,.
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Posts: 26968
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

Re: Airbus offers China Industrial Partnership for A380 Programme

Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:48 pm

william wrote:
Also, what better way for John Leahy to have a final dropping the mike farewell moment by signing a big China A380 order and maybe an EK order. EK gets its 10 year production guarantee,.


Talks with China have just started by Fabrice Bregier and may take another year or so to complete. Mr Leahy will be long gone by then.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
User avatar
Jayafe
Posts: 1224
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:12 pm

Re: Airbus offers China Industrial Partnership for A380 Programme

Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:50 pm

redflyer wrote:
Slot constraints are a product of the West, where new airport construction and new runway construction have been at a standstill for the past couple of decades. China does not have this restriction. When the demand is there, they will simply bulldoze entire villages and relocate the populace in order to build new airports and/or runways.


You are aware that constraint slots also come from the really constraint Chinese airspace, aren't you?
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 27231
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

Re: Airbus offers China Industrial Partnership for A380 Programme

Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:56 pm

The regulation VSMUT noted up-thread is a major reason why CZ's experience with the A380 has been less-than-optimal. CAN doesn't have the feed to fill it on either domestic or international routes, but CAAC will not allow them to move operations to PEK.

The A380 is likely only really going to work from PEK and PVG, but putting the A380 into those airports will have an impact on other national carriers operating out of PEK and local carriers (CX) out of HKG - especially if only one or two carriers is given it (say CZ is allowed to take more in exchange for operating most of them from PEK).
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8413
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Airbus offers China Industrial Partnership for A380 Programme

Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:00 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
I don't think Chinese will buy A380s, offset may come in a different form like 500x A32Xs. Example France-India Rafale deal has Dassault Falcon related offsets.


What is the whole point of this venture if Chinese airlines will not order more A380s? It's not like those orders would come from other airlines outside China.


A Chinese low-cost low-rated FAL is the only way to get out of sloppy contract Airbus signed with a prominent customer and to sign one more sloppy contract. Anyone wants NEO can talk to Chinese.

IMHO this will liberate entire EU from this conundrum.
All posts are just opinions.
 
tphuang
Posts: 5329
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Airbus offers China Industrial Partnership for A380 Programme

Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:05 pm

redflyer wrote:
tphuang wrote:
I always thought this was the most plausible solution to continue a380. There are plenty of trunk routes in china where a380 could be applied. Chinese air space is tight. All the major airports will be seriously slot constrained. Those major routes could all use a380 capacity.

Slot constraints are a product of the West, where new airport construction and new runway construction have been at a standstill for the past couple of decades. China does not have this restriction. When the demand is there, they will simply bulldoze entire villages and relocate the populace in order to build new airports and/or runways.

But I digress. Slot constraints at airports in the West haven't rendered the A380 a success, either, so what makes anyone think it will be any different in China?

There is really a lot of ignorance going on here.

Chinese civilian airspace is extremely congested due to military usage. There is only so many planes that can take off and land at congested air space at any given time. People are not willing to sit on a train for 2 hours to go to countryside because govt figures that's where they can build the largest airport.

Beijing to Shanghai the greatest capacity will always be between pek and sha airport. Any further out, will be taking express trains instead.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 19176
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Airbus offers China Industrial Partnership for A380 Programme

Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:25 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Excuse me while I roll my eyes...


x2

dtw2hyd wrote:
A Chinese low-cost low-rated FAL is the only way to get out of sloppy contract Airbus signed with a prominent customer and to sign one more sloppy contract.


It will be a completion centre a la A330 and Boeing 737. But don't let that get in the way of your rant.

tphuang wrote:
There is really a lot of ignorance going on here.


There certainly is. :yes:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 11891
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Airbus offers China Industrial Partnership for A380 Programme

Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:35 pm

Interesting move, in the end: good for Airbus and China. For the Chinese. For China, it might be most interesting if they can fulfill a role in the proposed A380-850/900NEO. And in the meantime order, 50 A380plus's for their airlines. They should be able to use them.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
QuarkFly
Posts: 369
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 4:20 pm

Re: Airbus offers China Industrial Partnership for A380 Programme

Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:41 pm

So those convoy's carrying giant A380 sections through small French villages are now going to road-trip it across Eurasia to China for assembly?
Always take the Red Eye if possible
 
User avatar
N14AZ
Posts: 4151
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:19 pm

Re: Airbus offers China Industrial Partnership for A380 Programme

Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:53 pm

QuarkFly wrote:
So those convoy's carrying giant A380 sections through small French villages are now going to road-trip it across Eurasia to China for assembly?

Yapp, via the new Silk Road (... belt whatever, as they now call it...)...

Seriously, we don’t know what kind of works will go to China. Of course, cabin outfitting seems logical but I haven’t seen anything official
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 27231
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

Re: Airbus offers China Industrial Partnership for A380 Programme

Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:55 pm

Dutchy wrote:
And in the meantime order, 50 A380plus's for their airlines. They should be able to use them.


With all due respect, where would they use them?

We've read ad nauseam about China Southern's less-than-optimal experience with the A380 due to lack of local feed at CAN and Guangzhou is a city of 14 million people. Heck, they could not make it work flying between Guangzhou and Hong Kong (a city of over 7 million) nor Beijing (a city of 22 million). I believe CZ would be more successful if they were allowed to operate the A380 out of Beijing and Shanghai (a city of 24 million), but I cannot see how either of those catchment areas could support a fleet of 50 across three or four carriers.

I could see CZ adding maybe another five to their current five if they were allowed to move most (or better, all) of them from CAN to PEK and added SFO, LHR, CDG and JFK to the existing LAX and AMS services now at CAN.
 
User avatar
N14AZ
Posts: 4151
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:19 pm

Re: Airbus offers China Industrial Partnership for A380 Programme

Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:08 pm

Stitch wrote:
Heck, they could not make it work flying between Guangzhou and Hong Kong

Sorry for nitpicking, Guangzhou and Hong Kong are very close to each other. I cannot imagine they ever considered to fly this route.

I agree with all the rest. I guess only CA could make it work and only from PEK. By the way, I am booked on an A380-CA-flight from PEK to FRA, “operated by LH”, due to their new JV.
 
BOAC1966
Posts: 424
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 6:55 pm

Re: Airbus offers China Industrial Partnership for A380 Programme

Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:12 pm

This is encouraging news if it fully materialises! A380 already has good foothold in China(s) and see no reason why no greater use both domestically and internationally ....just remember the colossal markets emerging plus dramatically increasing metropolis as depopulation of rural areas accelerates. Resources are always finite and the A380 maybe just about to come of age!
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 3524
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: Airbus offers China Industrial Partnership for A380 Programme

Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:17 pm

Stitch wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
And in the meantime order, 50 A380plus's for their airlines. They should be able to use them.


With all due respect, where would they use them?

We've read ad nauseam about China Southern's less-than-optimal experience with the A380 due to lack of local feed at CAN and Guangzhou is a city of 14 million people. Heck, they could not make it work flying between Guangzhou and Hong Kong (a city of over 7 million) nor Beijing (a city of 22 million). I believe CZ would be more successful if they were allowed to operate the A380 out of Beijing and Shanghai (a city of 24 million), but I cannot see how either of those catchment areas could support a fleet of 50 across three or four carriers.

I could see CZ adding maybe another five to their current five if they were allowed to move most (or better, all) of them from CAN to PEK and added SFO, LHR, CDG and JFK to the existing LAX and AMS services now at CAN.


Nobody flies between Guangzhou and Hong Kong anyway. It's 2 hrs by train and maybe a little bit longer on the gajillion cross-border buses. And they still operate 2 daily RT PEK-CAN.

They couldn't make it work on PEK-PVG (CZ was never a strong player on Beijing-Shanghai, then having to fly it to Pudong instead of Hongqiao hurts it more), nor PEK-HKG (Again, CA and CX dominate this route anyway). CAN itself just doesn't have too many long-haul route that can fill up a A380 (CAN is too close to HKG on a global scale, and Guangzhou overall is just not as international as Beijing and especially Shanghai). CZ wanted to operated something like PEK-JFK with those A380s anyway, but of course, Air China is not going to let CZ just jump into their turf :stirthepot:

Best thing for CZ would be wait for the new airport in Beijing (Daxing) to open, then they can have a lot more spaces there.

As for A380 overall - I'll wait until everything is finalized as to the scale of the partnership before jumping into any conclusion. Either that, or we may see CEAIC (or CFAIC) CE939 (or CF939) in the making :rotfl: .
 
WPvsMW
Posts: 2252
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: Airbus offers China Industrial Partnership for A380 Programme

Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:24 pm

Having done decades work in tech transfer deals, I can tell you the PRC partner wants all the documentation, and unlimited domestic rights, for anything the PRC partner manufactures. That's why KTX and Shinkansen builders refused JVs for the PRC's high speed rail system. If the deal is limited to interiors, it's a nonevent. If the PRC partner demands the usual JV manufacturing deal, Airbus won't do it.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 19176
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Airbus offers China Industrial Partnership for A380 Programme

Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:35 pm

Stitch wrote:
With all due respect, where would they use them?


I guess if “China Inc” decides they want this to go ahead, it will. China will then order A380s and Chinese airlines will then operate them (whether or not they actually want to.)

Personally I don’t see a lot of hope for a major order.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 27231
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

Re: Airbus offers China Industrial Partnership for A380 Programme

Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:45 pm

N14AZ wrote:
Sorry for nitpicking, Guangzhou and Hong Kong are very close to each other. I cannot imagine they ever considered to fly this route.


I expect because that is what CAAC told them to fly it on.


N14AZ wrote:
I guess only CA could make it work and only from PEK.


But Air China already has seven 747-8I that fly from PEK to SFO, JFK, FRA in addition to domestic services. Those are already near 400-seat four-class birds so do they need any more capacity?


scbriml wrote:
I guess if “China Inc” decides they want this to go ahead, it will. China will then order A380s and Chinese airlines will then operate them (whether or not they actually want to.). Personally I don’t see a lot of hope for a major order.


Agreed on both counts - With the backing of the central government, CACSG can force them down the national carrier's throats whether they want them or not, but I also expect those national carriers do have some influence within said government and seeing how CAAC somewhat screwed over CZ, I would not be surprised to see some push-back if they are not allowed to operate them from PEK and PVG which could limit the order amount (if there is an order amount).

Or maybe the government will just subsidize the flights to cover any losses, though I am sure that will go over well with both much of this forum and non-Chinese carriers facing subsidized A380 competition on flights to/from China.
Last edited by Stitch on Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:51 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 10350
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Airbus offers China Industrial Partnership for A380 Programme

Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:51 pm

Ok, we all know what is in this for Airbus, the A380 production continues until such time that they are willing to invest in the A380NEO.
Now the other side of the coin, what is in this for China, so far not much debate.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 27231
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

Re: Airbus offers China Industrial Partnership for A380 Programme

Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:57 pm

So the speculation is that this will become an A380 Completion and Delivery Centre, complementing the current A330 Completion and Delivery Centre at Tianjin.

All current A350 Completion and Delivery is done in TLS, correct? And I believe I have read here that the A350 program is using some A380 FAL space at TLS for outfitting?

Assuming the above is true, could the impetus for this be Airbus wanting to move the A380 outfitting from Hamburg to Tianjin and then moving some A350 outfitting to Hamburg in support of higher (planned and future) A350 production rates that would require more outfitting capacity? This would keep the Germans happy for losing the A380 outfitting and even if China does not themselves buy any A380s, it would still strengthen ties between Airbus and China if China took over outfitting A380s.
Last edited by Stitch on Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
redflyer
Posts: 3905
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:30 am

Re: Airbus offers China Industrial Partnership for A380 Programme

Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:58 pm

tphuang wrote:
redflyer wrote:
tphuang wrote:
I always thought this was the most plausible solution to continue a380. There are plenty of trunk routes in china where a380 could be applied. Chinese air space is tight. All the major airports will be seriously slot constrained. Those major routes could all use a380 capacity.

Slot constraints are a product of the West, where new airport construction and new runway construction have been at a standstill for the past couple of decades. China does not have this restriction. When the demand is there, they will simply bulldoze entire villages and relocate the populace in order to build new airports and/or runways.

But I digress. Slot constraints at airports in the West haven't rendered the A380 a success, either, so what makes anyone think it will be any different in China?

There is really a lot of ignorance going on here.

Chinese civilian airspace is extremely congested due to military usage. There is only so many planes that can take off and land at congested air space at any given time. People are not willing to sit on a train for 2 hours to go to countryside because govt figures that's where they can build the largest airport.

Beijing to Shanghai the greatest capacity will always be between pek and sha airport. Any further out, will be taking express trains instead.


So a couple of hundred of A380's injected into the Chinese market is going to miraculously alleviate all of the problems of millions of people needing access to air transportation in China.

You're right, there is a lot of ignorance going on here. The kind that continuously thinks there is a silver bullet of success just around the next corner for the A380 program.
A government big enough to take away a constitutionally guaranteed right is a government big enough to take away any guaranteed right. A government big enough to give you everything you need is a government big enough to take away everything you have.
 
fsabo
Posts: 197
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2015 8:41 pm

Re: Airbus offers China Industrial Partnership for A380 Programme

Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:03 pm

Stitch wrote:
So the speculation is that this will become an A380 Completion and Delivery Centre, complementing the current A330 Completion and Delivery Centre at Tianjin.

All current A350 Completion and Delivery is done in TLS, correct? And I believe I have read here that the A350 program is using some A380 FAL space at TLS for outfitting?

Assuming the above is true, could the impetus for this be Airbus wanting to move the A380 outfitting from Hamburg to Tianjin and then moving some A350 outfitting to Hamburg in support of higher (planned and future) A350 production rates that would require more outfitting capacity? This would keep the Germans happy for losing the A380 outfitting and even if China does not themselves buy any A380s, it would still strengthen ties between Airbus and China if China took over outfitting A380s.


Any impact on possible A320/1 production rate increases?
 
User avatar
JetBuddy
Posts: 2570
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:04 am

Re: Airbus offers China Industrial Partnership for A380 Programme

Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:07 pm

Interesting development indeed. There's not much information on what the deal might include, but I'm somewhat sceptical of transferring tech to China.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 10350
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Airbus offers China Industrial Partnership for A380 Programme

Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:07 pm

So does China want an outfitting and delivery center for all Airbus products they purchase, is one not enough?
Not saying it is not, but I would suspect that since they already have a center for narrow and wide body a/c, another wide body center has to come with something else.

Politically the Chinese Government purchases a/c from both OEM's narrow and wide, if they decide to purchase A380's with the offset of production / outfitting / delivery etc. one will have to assume that going forward this will become their primary wide body a/c, where does the leave the A350, a regional frame only?
 
tphuang
Posts: 5329
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Airbus offers China Industrial Partnership for A380 Programme

Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:16 pm

redflyer wrote:
tphuang wrote:
redflyer wrote:
Slot constraints are a product of the West, where new airport construction and new runway construction have been at a standstill for the past couple of decades. China does not have this restriction. When the demand is there, they will simply bulldoze entire villages and relocate the populace in order to build new airports and/or runways.

But I digress. Slot constraints at airports in the West haven't rendered the A380 a success, either, so what makes anyone think it will be any different in China?

There is really a lot of ignorance going on here.

Chinese civilian airspace is extremely congested due to military usage. There is only so many planes that can take off and land at congested air space at any given time. People are not willing to sit on a train for 2 hours to go to countryside because govt figures that's where they can build the largest airport.
Beijing to Shanghai the greatest capacity will always be between pek and sha airport. Any further out, will be taking express trains instead.


So a couple of hundred of A380's injected into the Chinese market is going to miraculously alleviate all of the problems of millions of people needing access to air transportation in China.

You're right, there is a lot of ignorance going on here. The kind that continuously thinks there is a silver bullet of success just around the next corner for the A380 program.

No your comments about China bulldozing villages to build airport is quite ignorant and frankly offensive.

Saying that there is no slot constraints in China is ignorant and non factual.
 
douwd20
Posts: 155
Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 3:45 am

Re: Airbus offers China Industrial Partnership for A380 Programme

Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:27 pm

Just another desperate attempt to save a money-losing venture. If China agrees it will only be to pilfer/harvest whatever technology they can for their own domestic aerospace industry.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 27231
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

Re: Airbus offers China Industrial Partnership for A380 Programme

Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:31 pm

par13del wrote:
So does China want an outfitting and delivery center for all Airbus products they purchase, is one not enough?


I imagine they would like this.


par13del wrote:
Politically the Chinese Government purchases a/c from both OEM's narrow and wide, if they decide to purchase A380's with the offset of production / outfitting / delivery etc. one will have to assume that going forward this will become their primary wide body a/c, where does the leave the A350, a regional frame only?


Aircraft purchases are a major way China helps address the (Im)Balance of Trade with the US and the EU. Even if the A380 Completion and Delivery Centre does move from Hamburg to Tianjin, China will still be buying plenty of A350s for regional and international missions.
 
alfa164
Posts: 3666
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Airbus offers China Industrial Partnership for A380 Programme

Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:39 pm

N14AZ wrote:
Stitch wrote:
Heck, they could not make it work flying between Guangzhou and Hong Kong

Sorry for nitpicking, Guangzhou and Hong Kong are very close to each other. I cannot imagine they ever considered to fly this route.


zakuivcustom wrote:
Nobody flies between Guangzhou and Hong Kong anyway. It's 2 hrs by train and maybe a little bit longer on the gajillion cross-border buses.


CZ doesn't fly it, but CX (actually flown by KA, I think) goes HKG-CAN twice daily.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
Planesmart
Posts: 2891
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 3:18 am

Re: Airbus offers China Industrial Partnership for A380 Programme

Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:48 pm

VSMUT wrote:
douwd20 wrote:
And somehow this move will magically make airlines want the A380? This is not the same business case as the C-Series.


The Chinese market is heavily regulated and restrained by the state. Airlines can't just open new routes or add capacity as they see fit, and the government has curbed the number of flights. If the market was allowed a bit more freedom, it isn't hard to imagine A380s plying the domestic network. It would also solve some of those congestion issues they have.

We shouldn't underestimate how strategic the Chinese government is in respect to optimising resources, especially as everything on earth, just about, is finite.

Multiple airlines only exist in China, because the Government wants that for now, giving them the opportunity to benchmark operations, staff and management. They will in time choose winners.

Although they have not yet signed up to Corsia, it is only a matter of time.

Doubt China will be interested in only fitting out A380 interiors. But if in time they own the design, production and future derivatives....

Does China see more future in VLA's than the West? Does China have an EK vision?

I've previously considered that post-A380, the next VLA will be an Airbus/Boeing collaboration. Perhaps it will be another partnership, but with Chinese aerospace in the lead role. Quite a smart move by Airbus if the Chinese are indeed receptive. Perhaps RR and EA will reconsider their PiP decisions?
 
BHXLOVER
Posts: 220
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:20 pm

Re: Airbus offers China Industrial Partnership for A380 Programme

Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:24 pm

redflyer wrote:
tphuang wrote:
redflyer wrote:
Slot constraints are a product of the West, where new airport construction and new runway construction have been at a standstill for the past couple of decades. China does not have this restriction. When the demand is there, they will simply bulldoze entire villages and relocate the populace in order to build new airports and/or runways.

But I digress. Slot constraints at airports in the West haven't rendered the A380 a success, either, so what makes anyone think it will be any different in China?

There is really a lot of ignorance going on here.

Chinese civilian airspace is extremely congested due to military usage. There is only so many planes that can take off and land at congested air space at any given time. People are not willing to sit on a train for 2 hours to go to countryside because govt figures that's where they can build the largest airport.

Beijing to Shanghai the greatest capacity will always be between pek and sha airport. Any further out, will be taking express trains instead.


So a couple of hundred of A380's injected into the Chinese market is going to miraculously alleviate all of the problems of millions of people needing access to air transportation in China.

You're right, there is a lot of ignorance going on here. The kind that continuously thinks there is a silver bullet of success just around the next corner for the A380 program.


Millions? China has a potential future traveling Billions!

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos