FrancisBegbie
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:38 pm

DALCE wrote:
ULD equiped A32S vs. Bulk 737's... The Airbus wins that all day long. The 737 only loads up to 99-149kgs per piece ( can differ slightly between operators ) whereas the AKH can weigh up to 1134kgs, meaning approx 1000kgs per piece. Max loading height on the 737 is approx 86cm's and on the AKH/PKC you can load 113cm height with ease.
Combined loads is also mentioned wrongly here, Hold 5 is always bulk, regardless of the a/c type (also widebodies) and often used only for crew bags and the likes or top urgent cargo shipments. ( LHO,AOG,SHL and the likes).
I also read that DHL & FEDEX are the beating the traditional airline cargo systems door-2-door. Also this is not true, it all depends on the SOP's dictated by customers.

In whatever way you put it, the 320-series with ULD's are far more convient for cargo than the 737. I yet have to read a strong argument to why a 737 is better for cargo.
Sorry guys/girls, don't take it personal, but I strongly disagree here. And I have been in Cargo for 20 years, having dealt with both 737's and Airbus NB's.


Not questioning what you're putting here. Just questioning why so many people think that cargo capabilities will be the all-overriding decision factor in this competition. The other arguments all stand too: pricing, capability differences (and their relevance on the shortish sectors in Europe), maintenance expertise, training requirements when switching, historical company preference/bias, etc.
 
WIederling
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:22 pm

Ufsatp wrote:
And yet operators of the 737 do that thousands of times every day. Maybe it isn’t as big of a deal as you try to sell on here?


In Europe that is running into all kind of issues.

we don't have nice weather.
we don't really have a big pool of low qualification but eager brawn workers
that are needed for endlessly handling baggage again and again.

( going through HAM recently 3 bags ( 1 mine ) came in rather fast,
then for the bigger part of an hour nothing and then the remaining bags
were made available for the waiting travelers. I had to wait some more
for my second bag to appear in front of the oversize baggage counter.
Magic! HAM has issues getting baggage handlers. )
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DALCE
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:30 pm

Cargo brings in a lot of money for airlines and could be one of the factors leading to a choice between aircraft producers. If you look for an average european flight of 3hrs. fe. AMS-ATH or LHR-MOW, MAD-FRA or OSL-BCN it is very well possible that there is more than € 10.000 of cargo revenue on board that flight. Obviously I can't disclose any real figures here due to regulations I have to adhere to. But this could be a realistic cargo revenue for a 737/320 on these kind of stretches.
If you divide € 10.000.- revenue over 180seats it compares to € 55.- per seat extra. This is serious money.
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xwb777
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:57 pm

AF-KLK will decide about the medium haul fleet in 2018
https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... al-in-2018
 
mat66
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:16 pm

I think we have a really good test case for the max10 here. If KLM orders a combination of max8 and max10, everything is fine. If on the other hand KLM (of all airlines) order max8 and A321neo...
Right now they only have 5 737-900, but everyone else is going bigger.
Transavia is the same thing. All 737, now.
AF is all Airbus, of course.

All together they operate 231 737/A32X. Big order that will be.
 
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keesje
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:24 pm

xwb777 wrote:
AF-KLK will decide about the medium haul fleet in 2018
https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... al-in-2018


Air France-KLM will launch a tender for new medium-haul aircraft in the first quarter of 2018 and plans to decide on the new aircraft for all four group's subsidiaries by the end of this year, CEO Jean-Marc Janaillac said during a hearing in the French Senate.

He underlined that the holding will invite all manufacturers to participate in the tender, including Airbus, Boeing, Bombardier, and Embraer.

The renewal will concern Air France, KLM Royal Dutch Airlines, mainline units of the group, as well as its low-cost subsidiary Transavia Airlines and regional unit HOP!.

It is unclear what exactly did Janaillac mean by the "medium-haul" designator, but most likely the replacement will concern the 100+ seat narrow-body segment.

Currently, the group's medium-haul fleet consists of a variety of types from all major manufacturers.

According to the ch-aviation fleet module, Air France currently operates eighteen A318-100s, thirty-eight A319-100s, forty-two A320-200s, five A321-100s, and fifteen A321-200s. For its part, HOP! operates fourteen CRJ-1000ERs, ten EMB-190s, along with a number of smaller Bombardier and Embraer regional jets.

KLM operates eighteen B737-700s, twenty-seven B737-800s, five B737-900s, and its KLM cityhopper (WA, Amsterdam) unit thirty EMB-190s.

For its part, Transavia operates eight B737-700s and thirty-one B737-800s, while its subsidiary Transavia France operates a further twenty-four B737-800s.


Inevitible.

The 737-10 would certainly have a chance at KLM. Commonality is there, range - runway restrictions hardly play a role. 737-8 could do the real long ME / Africa routes.
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EPA001
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:50 pm

mig17 wrote:
In the end, only 3 possible outcomes :
- AF, KLM, Joon, Transavia & Transavia fr goes all A320/A321 neo.
- AF, KLM, Joon, Transavia & Transavia fr goes all 737 8/9/10 max.
- AF & Joon goes A320/A321 neo while KLM & both Transavias goes 737 8/9 max.

1 or 3 could happen, 2 is more improbable.


The third option is also imho the most likely outcome of this fleet renewal. I would be quite surprised if option 1 or 2 would become a reality.
 
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PHBVF
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:05 pm

I could also see a fourth option.
AF, Joon, Transavia France get the A320neo
KLM, Transavia Netherlands get the 737 MAX

Might sound odd, but the two Transavia's are seperate companies.
I know KLM and Transavia NL can make use of each others 737s, in case of an aircraft going tech, scheduling requirement, etc.
But Transavia NL and Transavia FR can't interchange (or at least don't)

Not sure about the situation between AF/Joon/Transavia FR, but I would not be surprised if they could achieve the same structure, hence this fourth option could make sense...

Though in the end I think the the option with AF/Joon being the only A320neo operators seems most likely
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Jetty
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:57 pm

PHBVF wrote:
I know KLM and Transavia NL can make use of each others 737s, in case of an aircraft going tech, scheduling requirement, etc.

:checkmark: And this actually happens, Transavia NL planes flying KLM flights with KLM crew. To keep this useful option indeed expect Transavia NL and KLM to order from the same company.
 
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:37 pm

And I think AF/Joon/Transavia FR would benefit from a similar construction, hence the fourth option. Though as said by no means a given.
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mig17
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:17 pm

EPA001 wrote:
mig17 wrote:
In the end, only 3 possible outcomes :
- AF, KLM, Joon, Transavia & Transavia fr goes all A320/A321 neo.
- AF, KLM, Joon, Transavia & Transavia fr goes all 737 8/9/10 max.
- AF & Joon goes A320/A321 neo while KLM & both Transavias goes 737 8/9 max.

1 or 3 could happen, 2 is more improbable.


The third option is also imho the most likely outcome of this fleet renewal. I would be quite surprised if option 1 or 2 would become a reality.

A week ago I would have said yes. But since Air France KLM annoncement, a split order, 2 different contract, seems very unlikely. AFKL group want an offer to replace regional to medium haul fleet in AF, Joon, Hop, Transavia fr & nl, klm and klm city ... They have asked all suppliers, airbus, boeing, bombardier and embraer to bid.

Looks to me that even if they end up taking différent models, they want a kind of joint venture to pass one huge order to.

And since Airbus and Bombardier have done exacly that recently, I feel AFKL is compelling them to "deliver" on that now.
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:45 pm

And one thing that might put the scales in a single order is the ability to defer planes to one airline instead of the other.

You see that with the A350. some were planned to go to KLM, but the introduction/number of planes keeps getting defered. This in line with the crazy "equal growth" policy imposed by AF-unions.

With a split order you can't move a different type to the other airline, with a single order you can.
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keesje
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:46 pm

hooverman wrote:
According to https://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/categorie/2/airlines/klm-vervanger-boeing-737-vloot-nog-niet-in-beeld article(dutch only) a few days ago KLM boss Pieter Elbers says they are not thinking of a 737 replacement yet..


xwb777 wrote:
AF-KLK will decide about the medium haul fleet in 2018
https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... al-in-2018


:bored:
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EPA001
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:49 pm

mig17 wrote:
Looks to me that even if they end up taking différent models, they want a kind of joint venture to pass one huge order to.

And since Airbus and Bombardier have done exacly that recently, I feel AFKL is compelling them to "deliver" on that now.


You may be right. But as always time will tell what is going to happen at AF-KLM. ;)
 
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:17 pm

AFKLM are not generating for shareholders a rate of return which supports new investment. Controlled shrinkage would be a wise move. If IAG were in charge they would likely say "no more investment in anything and particularly no new aeroplanes, until you bunch of clowns get your act together".

It will be interesting to see if the new French President will permit the continuing drift into the abyss. It will be a real test of his metal. From an Anglo Saxon view point there is only one way to resolve the mess.
 
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PHBVF
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:49 pm

Egerton wrote:
AFKLM are not generating for shareholders a rate of return which supports new investment. Controlled shrinkage would be a wise move. If IAG were in charge they would likely say "no more investment in anything and particularly no new aeroplanes, until you bunch of clowns get your act together".

It will be interesting to see if the new French President will permit the continuing drift into the abyss. It will be a real test of his metal. From an Anglo Saxon view point there is only one way to resolve the mess.


Both companies are profitable at the moment and I can with some certainty say recent fleet renewal has definitely helped.
I do not see (even when shrinking) how a 737/A320 replacement order can be postponed past this year, given that all mayor competitors have newer, more efficient aircraft on order.
Maintenance and fuel wise it is an investment...
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Egerton
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:18 pm

PHBVF wrote:
Egerton wrote:
AFKLM are not generating for shareholders a rate of return which supports new investment. Controlled shrinkage would be a wise move. If IAG were in charge they would likely say "no more investment in anything and particularly no new aeroplanes, until you bunch of clowns get your act together".

It will be interesting to see if the new French President will permit the continuing drift into the abyss. It will be a real test of his metal. From an Anglo Saxon view point there is only one way to resolve the mess.


Both companies are profitable at the moment and I can with some certainty say recent fleet renewal has definitely helped.
I do not see (even when shrinking) how a 737/A320 replacement order can be postponed past this year, given that all mayor competitors have newer, more efficient aircraft on order.
Maintenance and fuel wise it is an investment...


Thank you.

With respect, being profitable in today's benign scenario is not a useful measure of financial performance. Any comparison of AFKLM with Ryanair, BA, IB, or LH would highlight the abysmal financial performance of AFKLM. This performance makes it impossible to fund new aeroplanes (leasing is just another form of debt). A new fleet for short haul might be good for ego, but if the cost of capital is ignored then it will only speed the arrival in the abyss.

My Anglo Saxon proposition has been tried and tested, but not yet in the case of AFKLM. I mean no more investment in anything and particularly no new aeroplanes, no pay increases, etc, until this bunch of clowns get their act together. Thus resulting controlled shrinkage would concentrate minds on the solutions.

Sorry to be blunt, but the truth has to be faced.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:00 am

A keeping a Boeing fleet at KLM and an Airbus fleet at AF, is simple impossible when LH and IAG are working on being able to switch planes between their individual brands within days.In their current situation just buying more efficient planes is simply not enough.
 
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keesje
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:31 am

Egerton wrote:
PHBVF wrote:
Egerton wrote:
AFKLM are not generating for shareholders a rate of return which supports new investment. Controlled shrinkage would be a wise move. If IAG were in charge they would likely say "no more investment in anything and particularly no new aeroplanes, until you bunch of clowns get your act together".

It will be interesting to see if the new French President will permit the continuing drift into the abyss. It will be a real test of his metal. From an Anglo Saxon view point there is only one way to resolve the mess.


Both companies are profitable at the moment and I can with some certainty say recent fleet renewal has definitely helped.
I do not see (even when shrinking) how a 737/A320 replacement order can be postponed past this year, given that all mayor competitors have newer, more efficient aircraft on order.
Maintenance and fuel wise it is an investment...


Thank you.

With respect, being profitable in today's benign scenario is not a useful measure of financial performance. Any comparison of AFKLM with Ryanair, BA, IB, or LH would highlight the abysmal financial performance of AFKLM. This performance makes it impossible to fund new aeroplanes (leasing is just another form of debt). A new fleet for short haul might be good for ego, but if the cost of capital is ignored then it will only speed the arrival in the abyss.

My Anglo Saxon proposition has been tried and tested, but not yet in the case of AFKLM. I mean no more investment in anything and particularly no new aeroplanes, no pay increases, etc, until this bunch of clowns get their act together. Thus resulting controlled shrinkage would concentrate minds on the solutions.

Sorry to be blunt, but the truth has to be faced.


KLM has been profitable, growing and investing over the last 25 years. Recently we have seen cost cutting programs as we have seen in previous years when required. They have been expanding their fleet and will keep doing so. Soon A350s and 787-10s will join the fleet.

This year the airline will be 100 yrs old, not bad for a bunch of clowns. Even from an Anglo Saxon perspective : you can be blunt, but the truth has to be faced. https://nltimes.nl/2017/07/28/klm-driving-force-behind-air-france-klm-soaring-profits

Image
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mjoelnir
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:42 am

Egerton wrote:
PHBVF wrote:
Egerton wrote:
AFKLM are not generating for shareholders a rate of return which supports new investment. Controlled shrinkage would be a wise move. If IAG were in charge they would likely say "no more investment in anything and particularly no new aeroplanes, until you bunch of clowns get your act together".

It will be interesting to see if the new French President will permit the continuing drift into the abyss. It will be a real test of his metal. From an Anglo Saxon view point there is only one way to resolve the mess.


Both companies are profitable at the moment and I can with some certainty say recent fleet renewal has definitely helped.
I do not see (even when shrinking) how a 737/A320 replacement order can be postponed past this year, given that all mayor competitors have newer, more efficient aircraft on order.
Maintenance and fuel wise it is an investment...


Thank you.

With respect, being profitable in today's benign scenario is not a useful measure of financial performance. Any comparison of AFKLM with Ryanair, BA, IB, or LH would highlight the abysmal financial performance of AFKLM. This performance makes it impossible to fund new aeroplanes (leasing is just another form of debt). A new fleet for short haul might be good for ego, but if the cost of capital is ignored then it will only speed the arrival in the abyss.

My Anglo Saxon proposition has been tried and tested, but not yet in the case of AFKLM. I mean no more investment in anything and particularly no new aeroplanes, no pay increases, etc, until this bunch of clowns get their act together. Thus resulting controlled shrinkage would concentrate minds on the solutions.

Sorry to be blunt, but the truth has to be faced.


If we go by your Anglo Saxon business understanding, than KLM and AF should have followed the US example and used chapter 11 to get rid of the necessity to pay pesky creditors and other cost factors to get a better financial performance.
 
marcelh
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:54 am

Egerton wrote:
From an Anglo Saxon view point

Ever heard of the Rhineland view point?
 
FrancisBegbie
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:26 am

Egerton wrote:

Sorry to be blunt, but the truth has to be faced.


The truth is that AFKL have to deal with powerful unions and national sentiments. You're ignoring those complicating factors. Let's just assume that the board of AFKL for the last 14 years haven't been exclusively occupied by muppets. The fact that these people are still looking for the key to crack the code should be a hint that it's not that easy in real life.
 
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FlyRow
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:28 am

mjoelnir wrote:
Egerton wrote:
PHBVF wrote:

Both companies are profitable at the moment and I can with some certainty say recent fleet renewal has definitely helped.
I do not see (even when shrinking) how a 737/A320 replacement order can be postponed past this year, given that all mayor competitors have newer, more efficient aircraft on order.
Maintenance and fuel wise it is an investment...


Thank you.

With respect, being profitable in today's benign scenario is not a useful measure of financial performance. Any comparison of AFKLM with Ryanair, BA, IB, or LH would highlight the abysmal financial performance of AFKLM. This performance makes it impossible to fund new aeroplanes (leasing is just another form of debt). A new fleet for short haul might be good for ego, but if the cost of capital is ignored then it will only speed the arrival in the abyss.

My Anglo Saxon proposition has been tried and tested, but not yet in the case of AFKLM. I mean no more investment in anything and particularly no new aeroplanes, no pay increases, etc, until this bunch of clowns get their act together. Thus resulting controlled shrinkage would concentrate minds on the solutions.

Sorry to be blunt, but the truth has to be faced.


If we go by your Anglo Saxon business understanding, than KLM and AF should have followed the US example and used chapter 11 to get rid of the necessity to pay pesky creditors and other cost factors to get a better financial performance.


Why would KLM go chapter 11? ................... Let alone that chapter 11 is a weird-american thing and isn't a thing in the EU.
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keesje
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:08 pm

I can see KLM for a 737-8 / A321NEO combination. The A320 NEO would reduce capacity.

The latter would be used on longer flights and seasonal / new lines.

The A310/767 fleets used to make short early morning rotations to London, Berlin, Paris etc. and do medium long flights after that.
E.g. BEY, CAI, THR, BDL, DME .
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:07 pm

Guess not every airline has to jump on the bandwagon just yet.
AA AC AS BA BD BF BN BR BY B6 CO CP(2) DG DL EA EI EN FL FT F9 HA HP ICX JI JQ J7 KE KS LH MC NW OC OO OZ(1) OZ(2) PA PI PT QF QQ RM RO RV(1) RV(2) RW SK SM SQ S4 TI TS TW UA UK US UZ VS VX WA WN WS W7 XV YV YX(2) ZZ 9K
 
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:14 pm

I'm not adding anything meaningful to this thread...I just want to say how much I love the KLM color scheme...have since 1978 when I got my first Airfix DC-9-30 model with KLM colors. Those two current shades of blue are just fantastic. I also really enjoyed/miss the Eastern Air Lines hockey stick colors.

Image
AA AC AS BA BD BF BN BR BY B6 CO CP(2) DG DL EA EI EN FL FT F9 HA HP ICX JI JQ J7 KE KS LH MC NW OC OO OZ(1) OZ(2) PA PI PT QF QQ RM RO RV(1) RV(2) RW SK SM SQ S4 TI TS TW UA UK US UZ VS VX WA WN WS W7 XV YV YX(2) ZZ 9K
 
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Wed May 30, 2018 8:46 am

CFRPwingALbody wrote:
I could see KLM ordering A321LR with CFM LEAP engines.
Does someone know how many airplanes KLM has with engines not provided by GE or CFM?
AFAIK only the A350's that could come and some old odd B747 converted freighter.


It was communicated AF - KLM would take a decision for the European fleet this year. This could be a large order.
Deliveries will probably take years to start because of high demand & large backlogs at Airbus & Boeing.

Statements they won't order seem political motivated. (AF crew)

LEAP Maintenance capabillity capability was introduced last year, that will indeed probably be the engines.
http://www.mro-network.com/maintenance-repair-overhaul/afi-klm-em-leap-ready

Maybe Transavia will order first?

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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Wed May 30, 2018 10:13 am

keesje wrote:
CFRPwingALbody wrote:
I could see KLM ordering A321LR with CFM LEAP engines.
Does someone know how many airplanes KLM has with engines not provided by GE or CFM?
AFAIK only the A350's that could come and some old odd B747 converted freighter.


It was communicated AF - KLM would take a decision for the European fleet this year. This could be a large order.
Deliveries will probably take years to start because of high demand & large backlogs at Airbus & Boeing.

Statements they won't order seem political motivated. (AF crew)

LEAP Maintenance capabillity capability was introduced last year, that will indeed probably be the engines.
http://www.mro-network.com/maintenance-repair-overhaul/afi-klm-em-leap-ready

Maybe Transavia will order first?

Image


Almost looks like this Transavia (France?) aircraft is landing on an aircraft carrier!

HV may very well receive 737MAX first, probably from a leasing company. The MAX-200 and the MAX-10 are likely IMO.
KL will probably order the MAX too. Before the launch of the MAX-10 I considered the A321neo a possibility for KL, now less likely. But with AMS maxing out on slots in 2020, larger aircraft are needed.

KLM will add 4 new 737-800s next year, (rumored as replacement of 4 737-700s, but that's unconfirmed):
PH-BCG 62578 Op. Lease Mar 2019 CFM56-7B24 30C 6Y 150M
PH-BCH 62579 Op. Lease Mar 2019 CFM56-7B24 30C 6Y 150M
PH-BCK 62580 Op. Lease Apr 2019 CFM56-7B24 30C 6Y 150M
PH-BCL 63624 Op. Lease Apr 2019 CFM56-7B24 30C 6Y 150M
(source: Scramble forum, user Nemaco).
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Wed May 30, 2018 10:33 pm

frigatebird wrote:
KLM will add 4 new 737-800s next year, (rumored as replacement of 4 737-700s, but that's unconfirmed):
PH-BCG 62578 Op. Lease Mar 2019 CFM56-7B24 30C 6Y 150M
PH-BCH 62579 Op. Lease Mar 2019 CFM56-7B24 30C 6Y 150M
PH-BCK 62580 Op. Lease Apr 2019 CFM56-7B24 30C 6Y 150M
PH-BCL 63624 Op. Lease Apr 2019 CFM56-7B24 30C 6Y 150M
(source: Scramble forum, user Nemaco).


In my opinion this settles the debate whether KLM will order the MAX or the NEO.
It would not make sense to order 737NGs in the same year as a NEO order...
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Thu May 31, 2018 7:19 am

PHBVF wrote:
frigatebird wrote:
KLM will add 4 new 737-800s next year, (rumored as replacement of 4 737-700s, but that's unconfirmed):
PH-BCG 62578 Op. Lease Mar 2019 CFM56-7B24 30C 6Y 150M
PH-BCH 62579 Op. Lease Mar 2019 CFM56-7B24 30C 6Y 150M
PH-BCK 62580 Op. Lease Apr 2019 CFM56-7B24 30C 6Y 150M
PH-BCL 63624 Op. Lease Apr 2019 CFM56-7B24 30C 6Y 150M
(source: Scramble forum, user Nemaco).


In my opinion this settles the debate whether KLM will order the MAX or the NEO.
It would not make sense to order 737NGs in the same year as a NEO order...


It makes even less sense to place a separate order for just 4x 737NGs in the same year as a major MAX order. If they were planning to order that, then tacking the 4x NGs onto a much bigger order from Boeing would be more likely.
 
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PHBVF
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Thu May 31, 2018 9:24 am

Not really. The MAX/NEO order will be made on a group level. This order has been made on a company level.
This indicates KLM has a requirement sooner rather than later to receive these birds.

I am assuming the -700 leases are ending before they can receive their first MAX aircraft...
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keesje
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Thu May 31, 2018 10:20 am

KLM traditionally orders smaller quantities at a time, gradually building the fleet, keeping finances under control. E.g. once they quickly ordered a few 744s for cash when nett profit became uncomfortably high irt upcoming salary negotiations.

Regarding AF, it seems the A320 replacement is the biggest, next to 318/319s (CSeries seems a serious option).

Replacing the large, aging A320 fleet with a same size A320NEO after 30 years seems not optimal. The A321NEO is a given, but a bit large for 1:1 replacement of all A320s. I always expected AF one of the airline pushing for a A320 200 seat organic growth version.. They have the cloud in Paris/TLS.

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For KLM the 737-10 might fit a requirement. Average flight length from SPL on the European net is little more than an hour..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
LifelinerOne
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Thu May 31, 2018 10:58 am

PHBVF wrote:
frigatebird wrote:
KLM will add 4 new 737-800s next year, (rumored as replacement of 4 737-700s, but that's unconfirmed):
PH-BCG 62578 Op. Lease Mar 2019 CFM56-7B24 30C 6Y 150M
PH-BCH 62579 Op. Lease Mar 2019 CFM56-7B24 30C 6Y 150M
PH-BCK 62580 Op. Lease Apr 2019 CFM56-7B24 30C 6Y 150M
PH-BCL 63624 Op. Lease Apr 2019 CFM56-7B24 30C 6Y 150M
(source: Scramble forum, user Nemaco).


In my opinion this settles the debate whether KLM will order the MAX or the NEO.
It would not make sense to order 737NGs in the same year as a NEO order...


These four planes are not orders, just four new leases and, as I remember correctly, for less than ten years. An NEO/MAX-order would take probably the same time to get fully delivered to both Air France and KLM, so these four would not hinder a possible order, but ensures enough available planes during the transition and to cover for four B737-700s coming off leases.

Cheers!
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A388
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Thu May 31, 2018 12:38 pm

As I've said before already, KLM and AF are big enough to have their own Boeing and Airbus narrow body fleets. No need to change that as it involves more costs. To my knowledge KL is also a Boeing center of excellence. This means they can offer Boeing certified third party maintenance work for other airlines too which has a value on it's own. Going for Airbus in this case means they would lose that third party work. The only question is how important is this third party business for KLM? I'm not sure if AF has the same with Airbus models(?)

A388
 
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Thu May 31, 2018 1:10 pm

keesje wrote:
KLM traditionally orders smaller quantities at a time, gradually building the fleet, keeping finances under control. E.g. once they quickly ordered a few 744s for cash when nett profit became uncomfortably high irt upcoming salary negotiations.

Regarding AF, it seems the A320 replacement is the biggest, next to 318/319s (CSeries seems a serious option).

Replacing the large, aging A320 fleet with a same size A320NEO after 30 years seems not optimal. The A321NEO is a given, but a bit large for 1:1 replacement of all A320s. I always expected AF one of the airline pushing for a A320 200 seat organic growth version.. They have the cloud in Paris/TLS.

Image

For KLM the 737-10 might fit a requirement. Average flight length from SPL on the European net is little more than an hour..


They may be waiting for a long time since the A320neo plus has been shelved (despite denials from Keesje)

viewtopic.php?t=1391201
 
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Thu May 31, 2018 1:12 pm

keesje wrote:
Regarding AF, it seems the A320 replacement is the biggest, next to 318/319s (CSeries seems a serious option).

Replacing the large, aging A320 fleet with a same size A320NEO after 30 years seems not optimal. The A321NEO is a given, but a bit large for 1:1 replacement of all A320s. I always expected AF one of the airline pushing for a A320 200 seat organic growth version.. They have the cloud in Paris/TLS.


AF's current A320s have 165-178 seats. If they copy LH Group, the A320NEO can have 180 seats two-class or "go EZY" and have 186 seats at 28-29 inch pitch. With short Euro flights there is little need for large galleys.

Low-MTOW CS300 with 145-150 seats will be a great A318/319 replacement.

As for KLM - how has the B737-900 fared in their fleet? Have the 188-189 seats been a real asset or do they often leave with empty seats? If AMS is getting crowded, 220-seat MAX 10 will be a great asset to KLM and 230 seats for Transavia.
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keesje
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Thu May 31, 2018 1:40 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:

They may be waiting for a long time since the A320neo plus has been shelved (despite denials from Keesje)

viewtopic.php?t=1391201


You used the wrong link, that's from last month. These are from 6 and 12 years ago:
https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/483658-200-seat-a320-plus-inbetween-a320-a321-feasible.html
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392177

Since then Airbus apparently adapted A320 "Plus".


While some really believe they "shelved" it, be sure they "un-shelve" it in a second if they want to. If they shelved it anyway. This is a long term product development process, not a media quote competition.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
kimimm19
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:13 pm

Is it still expected to hear word of the group's narrowbody order by the end of this year (next 7 weeks)?
 
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:14 am

KLM's 737NG fleet is not that old; AF's A32Xs, while slightly older, aren't ancient either, so I am guessing that they are happy to sit tight for a while. I think the AF Groupe, while several others, are happy to sit and wait to see what Boeing's NMA will look like and how it mght compare to the A32X Neo, or any future mid-market aircraft Airbus might come up with.
 
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FlyRow
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:29 pm

I would expect things to happen in this years Paris Air Show.
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mwhcvt
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:58 pm

It always makes me smile the idea of lines being sold out for years, that’s really not the case just because the manufacturer has an order backlog totalling 7 years that doesn’t mean it will take 7 years to get a first delivery as those existing orders will probably be spread out over 10+ years, then there is orders from leasing companies when airlines can either take that lease or even buy/swap the slot if the company is willing, finally you also have cancellations and deferments from airlines going out of business or in financial trouble...I’m sure airbus or boeing would be able to finds delivery’s within 18 months or so
Must think up a new one soon, slow moving brain trying to get into gear ;)
 
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:04 pm

Today, March 28th, 2019 KLM took delivery of its latest B737-800 PH-BCH (ln 7472) new from the Boeing factories.

The aircraft may have made a record delivery flight as it flew NON-STOP from BFI -> AMS a distance of 4.881 miles in 9,5 hours.

The flight was planned to operate BFI-GLA-AMS, but re-cleared en-route direct AMS.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airc ... h#1ff3edec

This is the 2nd aircraft of four additional new B737-800's to be delivered to KLM in March/April 2019.
 
mig17
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:03 pm

FlyRow wrote:
I would expect things to happen in this years Paris Air Show.

If the group place a narrowbody order at Le Bourget, it will be for some Airbus ones. Or ... E-jet ^^

kaitak wrote:
KLM's 737NG fleet is not that old; AF's A32Xs, while slightly older, aren't ancient either, so I am guessing that they are happy to sit tight for a while. I think the AF Groupe, while several others, are happy to sit and wait to see what Boeing's NMA will look like and how it mght compare to the A32X Neo, or any future mid-market aircraft Airbus might come up with.

The AF/KL/TO/HV/HN/A5 narrowbody fleet is composed of planes with a large range of ages and cycles not always linked to the model, A318/19/20/21, 737/8/9, E-130/70/90, ATR42/72 and CRJ7/10.
There are a few planes (738 and E190) on order at HV, A5 and KL but not enough to anticipate the true replacement cycle coming post 2022. At AF, some A319 and A321 will need replacement. At KL some 738 and at HOP some E-jet. In the mean time, HV and TO are growing so if some replacement are selected for A319/321/738, it will also impact them someway. Either they will get the younger A320 and 737 from AF/KL while those are getting NEO/MAX or they will also buy the new NEO/MAX for growth.


If a narrowbody order is passed at Paris Air Show by the group it could be for both A321NEO and A221/3 to initiate post 2022 fleet plan.
727 AT, 737 UX/SK/TO/SS, 747 UT/AF/SQ/BA/SS, 767 UA, 777 AF, A300 IW/TG, A310 EK, A318/19/20/21 AF/U2/VY, A332/3 EK/QR/TX, A343 AF, A388 AF, E145/170/190 A5/WF, Q400 WF, ATR 72 A5/TX, CRJ100/700/1000 A5, C-150/172, PC-6.
 
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spinotter
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:58 pm

Egerton wrote:
AFKLM are not generating for shareholders a rate of return which supports new investment. Controlled shrinkage would be a wise move. If IAG were in charge they would likely say "no more investment in anything and particularly no new aeroplanes, until you bunch of clowns get your act together".

It will be interesting to see if the new French President will permit the continuing drift into the abyss. It will be a real test of his metal. From an Anglo Saxon view point there is only one way to resolve the mess.


Of all the airlines on earth, the dysfunctions of AF would be the most difficult to extirpate. Not maybe as dysfunctional as AZ, AI, or SA on the whole, but unions and lower management not willing to move an inch. I honestly admire the French mentality - they seem unwilling to bow before the gods of capitalism - but it plays havoc with their profits.
 
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keesje
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:21 am

It seems the KLM E195-E2 order is mainly focussed on replacing the KLM 737-700 fleet.. they already started withdrawing some -700s.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/paris-klm-joins-e2-customer-list-459202/

KLM entered strategic cooperation on MRO with Embraer years ago.

From 737-700 to E195-E2, probably a significant efficiency / comfort bump.

Image
https://luchtvaartfotograaf.nl/index.php/nl/klm/event/klm/KLM_B737
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
CHRISBA35X
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:43 am

I'm a loyal KL stalwart after moving to the Netherlands and see the fleet splitting into Embraers for Cityhopper and potentially 195-E2s for mainline to replace the 73Gs, with the mainline NB fleet focusing on working the 738s and 9s to the death and replacing them as they come up it with 739ER and 73X MAXes.

We'll see a very slick cabin, slimline seats, good wifi and wide aisles to make these very solid short and mid-haul people movers on the AMS-BCN/MAD/LHR/MAN/FRA/BER/CDG/FCO/MXP/LED/ATH/IST/OSL/CPH/ARN/PRG/WAW etc trunk routes.
 
CHRISBA35X
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:45 am

keesje wrote:
It seems the KLM E195-E2 order is mainly focussed on replacing the KLM 737-700 fleet.. they already started withdrawing some -700s.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/paris-klm-joins-e2-customer-list-459202/

KLM entered strategic cooperation on MRO with Embraer years ago.

From 737-700 to E195-E2, probably a significant efficiency / comfort bump.

Image
https://luchtvaartfotograaf.nl/index.php/nl/klm/event/klm/KLM_B737


That may be so and i do agree with you but the KL new livery 73Gs are some of the nicest looking 737s ever made by the hand of man or woman in my view. Stunning. Thats a great picture.
 
CHRISBA35X
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:56 am

spinotter wrote:
Egerton wrote:
AFKLM are not generating for shareholders a rate of return which supports new investment. Controlled shrinkage would be a wise move. If IAG were in charge they would likely say "no more investment in anything and particularly no new aeroplanes, until you bunch of clowns get your act together".

It will be interesting to see if the new French President will permit the continuing drift into the abyss. It will be a real test of his metal. From an Anglo Saxon view point there is only one way to resolve the mess.


Of all the airlines on earth, the dysfunctions of AF would be the most difficult to extirpate. Not maybe as dysfunctional as AZ, AI, or SA on the whole, but unions and lower management not willing to move an inch. I honestly admire the French mentality - they seem unwilling to bow before the gods of capitalism - but it plays havoc with their profits.


Thing is it is easy for us non-French to criticise but AF are probably (along with A3 and LX) the best short and mid-haul airline i have ever flown - consistently. Great service, good transfer/connection performance, nice hard and soft short haul product, humour and a little bit of style, even on their very old frames. Long haul ive flown their new business class and found it to be excellent. Even their widely derided old A380 products are still decent. Put it this way - i'd take AF over either of my own national carriers any day of the week. Its easy to criticise as say but they do have a great product and I've always found them several notches above airlines like BA, DL, AA, SK, LH, AZ, IB, US and VS in every class consistently. Yes they are a little idiosyncratic at times with an imbued "Frenchness" that non-French can find infuriating at times and for sure the strikes and such are not fun but on some level i do respect them for holding true to their values and doing what they do well, not selling out to the low cost model like BA have done and believing in what they are doing. That is tough for an Englishman to admit especially given how poor my own national airline has fallen in recent years in many ways.
 
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Momo1435
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:01 am

The E195 order is for KLM Cityhopper, it will not be used to replace the 737-700. This was confirmed by KLM to the cabin crew union who were logically woried that work would be transferred from KLM to KLM Cityhopper.

The Flightglobal is correct in their statement that KLM has looked at the E195 for the replacement of the 737-700, however that had nothing to do with the recent order.

No final decission has been made yet by KLM concerning the complete replacement of the 737-700s.
 
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keesje
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:20 am

Momo1435 wrote:
The E195 order is for KLM Cityhopper, it will not be used to replace the 737-700. This was confirmed by KLM to the cabin crew union who were logically woried that work would be transferred from KLM to KLM Cityhopper.

The Flightglobal is correct in their statement that KLM has looked at the E195 for the replacement of the 737-700, however that had nothing to do with the recent order.

No final decission has been made yet by KLM concerning the complete replacement of the 737-700s.


737-700 are phased out faster than new -800 capacity is added. In total KLM - KLM Cityhopper EMEA capacity is growing meanwhile (e.g Stobart). 1 + 1 = 2.

https://aeronauticsonline.com/klm-phasing-out-the-boeing-737-700/
Last edited by keesje on Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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