Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
vadodara
Posts: 1146
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:45 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:21 pm

binayak wrote:
vadodara wrote:
binayak wrote:
All that is now history. 9W has understood its mistakes and are making every move with utmost caution. Yes we might not be able to see that ambitious 9W any more but a profitable and well run 9W .
....
Had 9W tried to reduce operational costs like they are doing today, they could've been saved.

Shouldnt this be the first thing a business should do?
They should thank their political connections that they are still in the game.

Yes this must be one of the first things .
Little did 9W know that the market will turn out to be so price sensitive. They still thought that they will win the heart of travellers with good service. Well their survival is more of a luck else they would have had the same fate like KF .


Price sensitive? I thought BOM was a premium market. Only 1st class seats needed. Just follow the BOM hub-wallah's posts on this forum.
 
binayak
Posts: 992
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2017 2:00 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:39 pm

vadodara wrote:
Price sensitive? I thought BOM was a premium market. Only 1st class seats needed. Just follow the BOM hub-wallah's posts on this forum.

Yes BOM is a premium market. But they served many other places too. Look how they have reduced their network out of many other cities. I referred to the growing population of air travellers as "price sensitive" . Last decade our FSCs used to rule the market while later the traffic patterns changed and shifted towards LCCs. So the people who have started travelling by air in recent years are a bit price conscious.which has affected 9W's market share.
It is because of BOM's premium demand that 9W is still surviving in the market. Being myself one of the " BOM hub-wallah " I can bet the city has the true potential of being a good hub for 9W more than DEL can be for AI. It has historically been the main operating base of FSCs. ( earlier AI , east west etc).
The best preparation for tomorrow is doing your best today
 
vadodara
Posts: 1146
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:45 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:53 pm

As a business, Jet Airways can choose whatever model it wishes. It should not be allowed to use its muscle, by irrational laws such as 20-5 rule, to keep competition out.
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 1244
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:53 pm

globetrotter94 wrote:
BawliBooch wrote:
unrave wrote:
Good, so yanking AI off government's hands will save the taxpayer $200m. Good news no?



Save the taxpayer $200m by making the taxpayer pay $6bn to write off debts!

Now THAT is good economics!


Cherry on the cake is, pay $6bn to write off debts, and then, the thing you paid for gets sold off into private hands for a pittance anyway! No longer national property. Even the finance people who engineered the 2008 collapse were not so ingenious as to engineer such a wealth transfer scheme!


Dude you clearly do not understand how M&A works. The debt incurred by AI due to mismanagement and govt needs (running certain routes, not firing people etc) are all the GOI's. What the GOI has said is that debt will NOT be transferred in the sale. Only debt relating to the planes will be. That is in line with normal acquisition structuring. This is essentially an asset sale. No one would buy the company called AI. Because this is aviation, you need to actually by the company so AI Inc has to be cleaned up for the transfer. There is absolutely NOTHING weird about this. The alternative is to do exactly what Air Asia did - buy from the govt for $1 and then pay down the debt (which would mean the purchase price was $1+debt nor $1. But very few buyers would purchase debt caused by mismanagement - debt is always netted from assets when calculating value - finance 101. Plus India would go crazy if it was sold at a lower price with the assumption that debt was paid down (the common man would not be able to move past a sale at $1 or what ever). Much better to sell at a higher price free of debt. That said, I don't why people on this forum care. Just sell AI in a fair process for what ever price.

The GOI and current AI staff have failed in running an airline. Plain and simple.
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 1244
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:12 pm

vadodara wrote:
binayak wrote:
vadodara wrote:
Shouldnt this be the first thing a business should do?
They should thank their political connections that they are still in the game.

Yes this must be one of the first things .
Little did 9W know that the market will turn out to be so price sensitive. They still thought that they will win the heart of travellers with good service. Well their survival is more of a luck else they would have had the same fate like KF .


Price sensitive? I thought BOM was a premium market. Only 1st class seats needed. Just follow the BOM hub-wallah's posts on this forum.


Coach in India is very price sensitive, even in BOM. That said BOM is still India's most premium market (and before you go there it's nowhere as premium as LHR, JFK, HKG, SFO, etc but it is a long way from VFR/Worker dominated MAA, HYD, TRV etc - only BOM, DEL & BLR come close to somewhat premium global markets). ME3 operate some of their best products to BOM because of the premium demand. The issue in BOM is that the ME3 are so dominant and the local carriers relatively weak, that premium customers are spread amongst many airlines. In most countries, the dominant local carrier in a premium market, captures a good amount of premium traffic due to FF programs and corporate accounts. AI and 9W have not done a good job of this in the past. With the AF/KL/DL/VS/9W partnership, 9W is finally making good inroads with premium clients and guess what....the ME3 and others are feeling it.
 
User avatar
globetrotter94
Posts: 427
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2016 5:05 am

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:04 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
globetrotter94 wrote:
BawliBooch wrote:


Save the taxpayer $200m by making the taxpayer pay $6bn to write off debts!

Now THAT is good economics!


Cherry on the cake is, pay $6bn to write off debts, and then, the thing you paid for gets sold off into private hands for a pittance anyway! No longer national property. Even the finance people who engineered the 2008 collapse were not so ingenious as to engineer such a wealth transfer scheme!


Dude you clearly do not understand how M&A works. The debt incurred by AI due to mismanagement and govt needs (running certain routes, not firing people etc) are all the GOI's. What the GOI has said is that debt will NOT be transferred in the sale. Only debt relating to the planes will be. That is in line with normal acquisition structuring. This is essentially an asset sale. No one would buy the company called AI. Because this is aviation, you need to actually by the company so AI Inc has to be cleaned up for the transfer. There is absolutely NOTHING weird about this. The alternative is to do exactly what Air Asia did - buy from the govt for $1 and then pay down the debt (which would mean the purchase price was $1+debt nor $1. But very few buyers would purchase debt caused by mismanagement - debt is always netted from assets when calculating value - finance 101. Plus India would go crazy if it was sold at a lower price with the assumption that debt was paid down (the common man would not be able to move past a sale at $1 or what ever). Much better to sell at a higher price free of debt. That said, I don't why people on this forum care. Just sell AI in a fair process for what ever price.

The GOI and current AI staff have failed in running an airline. Plain and simple.


Oh so it's now an asset sale is it? A few pages back, posters in favor of the current plan of privatization were saying AI has no assets worth buying, but now it's an asset sale? Some consistency from the pro-privatization people would be appreciated. If, after writing off the debt in question, AI remains a viable concern such that it would be of interest to other airline buyers, then why is there the need to sell it to what is in effect its rivals in the first place? Why not just spin-it off into a separate, autonomous company with professional management, forgive the aircraft debt as well, and let it go its own merry way, without disrupting its network structure, alliance affiliation, codeshares, or anything like that? Oh, and perhaps keep it in one piece as well, rather than disintegrating it into 4? Or would that not please all the lobbyists and corrupt private sector businessmen that have been lining the GOI's pockets all along to bring things to this stage?
6E, 9W, AF, AI, B6, BA, BI, BR, CA, DN, GA, IC, JL, KB, KL, KU, NH, QR, SQ, TG, TK, UA, VS
 
Kashmon
Posts: 642
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 8:08 am

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:26 pm

globetrotter94 wrote:
Kashmon wrote:

CX is operationally VERY profitable- they just screwed up on a fuel bet



And AI is also operationally VERY profitable -- they just GOT screwed over by a corrupt aviation ministry to buy more planes than they had any idea what to do with. We can all caveat and make exceptions until the crows come home. The fact of the matter is that CX is under enormous pressure from mainland Chinese carriers and also hamstrung by Hong Kong's declining (still big--but declining) relative importance in the Asia-Pacific region.

instead of assuming go and ready their operational profit figures from their annual report...
no explanations- their airline itself is competitive regardless of mainland competition and CX has always had competition
but you would not understand hedging... but I can't expect someone who thinks AI's incompetence is equivalent to CX to understand anything that involves basic math.

Hong Kong's not declining it is still growing and always has it just won't be the number one in everything like it used to be some mainland city will take over ( and about time they have 1.4 billion people and still have not caught up to HK)
- only in the mind of SIN fans is it declining- they have always envied HKG, in fact HK is the envy of most Asian governments. HKG is growing just fine and in line for a developed city, no decline or crash

the others are just catching up and with lots of debt - when a single east Asian city has the GDP per capita of HKG and virtually zero debt with 2 trillion dollar reserves lets talk.

as for India blitaterals with HKG

as long as Indian airlines and EK etc bribe the government to block CX from expanding into India CX has every right to use the same tactic in its home city and hog slots away from Indian carriers.

the focus of the Indian government should be the consumer, not private companies- international or domestic

EK should be allowed to expand as should CX- they should not be punished for the incompetence of domestic Indian airlines
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 20545
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:56 pm

QR denies report of joint venture bid for AI:

https://www.ndtv.com/business/air-india ... ai-rum=off
Winter is coming.
 
User avatar
globetrotter94
Posts: 427
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2016 5:05 am

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:23 am

lightsaber wrote:
QR denies report of joint venture bid for AI:

https://www.ndtv.com/business/air-india ... ai-rum=off


I am finding it difficult to believe denials this month. AI also denied it had got Saudi permission to overfly its airspace on the way to Israel till the last minute until, one day, all of a sudden, said permission magically appeared. Anyway, if it is true, then at least that is something I can understand.
6E, 9W, AF, AI, B6, BA, BI, BR, CA, DN, GA, IC, JL, KB, KL, KU, NH, QR, SQ, TG, TK, UA, VS
 
User avatar
unrave
Posts: 2682
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:37 am

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:51 am

globetrotter94 wrote:


Oh so it's now an asset sale is it? A few pages back, posters in favor of the current plan of privatization were saying AI has no assets worth buying, but now it's an asset sale?


Nobody in their right mind thinks that AI has not assets worth selling. It AI's equity that has completely eroded to be of no value. While this is not exactly a pure asset sale - that happens when the company is wound down or close to being shut, like KF, much of the price that an acquirer will pay here can be attributed to the value of the assets


Some consistency from the pro-privatization people would be appreciated. If, after writing off the debt in question, AI remains a viable concern such that it would be of interest to other airline buyers, then why is there the need to sell it to what is in effect its rivals in the first place? Why not just spin-it off into a separate, autonomous company with professional management, forgive the aircraft debt as well, and let it go its own merry way, without disrupting its network structure, alliance affiliation, codeshares, or anything like that?


The debt is not being forgiven completely. Part of the debt, let us call it tranche A, will be assumed by the acquirer. The remaining debt, tranche B, will be moved to an SPV. The acquisition price will be used to pay down part of the debt in tranche B. What ever remains will be a haircut for the banks or paid by the government (the shareholder). This is how acquisitions of highly leveraged and unprofitable companies take place the world over. How much of the debt is taken over by the government ultimately depends on the valuation that AI fetches.

The primary aim of privatisation is for the government to get out of businesses, especially money bleeding unprofitable ones like AI. It doesn't make sense to forgive its debt and let it continue in its current form. It will only be a matter of time before we taxpayers are required to bail it out again.

Oh, and perhaps keep it in one piece as well, rather than disintegrating it into 4?

Value unlocking. When a large organisation with multiple business segments is being sold, it is common to split it into parts so that the valuation of the better performing/profitable parts are not bogged down by the unprofitable ones. In AI's case Turkish ground handling company Celebi has expressed interest in acquiring AI's ground handling division, AITSL, for example.
17April2019: RIP Jet Airways
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 1244
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:15 am

Kashmon wrote:
globetrotter94 wrote:
Kashmon wrote:

CX is operationally VERY profitable- they just screwed up on a fuel bet



And AI is also operationally VERY profitable -- they just GOT screwed over by a corrupt aviation ministry to buy more planes than they had any idea what to do with. We can all caveat and make exceptions until the crows come home. The fact of the matter is that CX is under enormous pressure from mainland Chinese carriers and also hamstrung by Hong Kong's declining (still big--but declining) relative importance in the Asia-Pacific region.

instead of assuming go and ready their operational profit figures from their annual report...
no explanations- their airline itself is competitive regardless of mainland competition and CX has always had competition
but you would not understand hedging... but I can't expect someone who thinks AI's incompetence is equivalent to CX to understand anything that involves basic math.

Hong Kong's not declining it is still growing and always has it just won't be the number one in everything like it used to be some mainland city will take over ( and about time they have 1.4 billion people and still have not caught up to HK)
- only in the mind of SIN fans is it declining- they have always envied HKG, in fact HK is the envy of most Asian governments. HKG is growing just fine and in line for a developed city, no decline or crash

the others are just catching up and with lots of debt - when a single east Asian city has the GDP per capita of HKG and virtually zero debt with 2 trillion dollar reserves lets talk.

as for India blitaterals with HKG

as long as Indian airlines and EK etc bribe the government to block CX from expanding into India CX has every right to use the same tactic in its home city and hog slots away from Indian carriers.

the focus of the Indian government should be the consumer, not private companies- international or domestic

EK should be allowed to expand as should CX- they should not be punished for the incompetence of domestic Indian airlines


HKG isn’t getting more frequencies because (1) HKG won’t give good slots to Indian carriers and most importantly (2) CX wants the seats to move pax from India to west coast of USA and Canada. Tell me why does India need to do this??? India already has a super liberal bilateral with the ME3 plus SE asia. China protects its airlines. Why can’t india? Do you work for CX or something? If HKG and China offered proper slots to India carriers with fifth freedoms onwards, then I agree, liberalize the bilateral (remember Jet with it’s ONE flight BOM-PVG-SFO that China gave HORRIBLE slots to). If they use protectionism then screw them. Btw no country is pro consumer and anti local business. It’s a balance between the two. On the Anet India boards the so called casual posters seem to think just give away everything and screw local airlines and local JOBS so people can fly for $5 less. What ever...Thank god for the current govt. Not perfect but better than the crap from before that sold indian aviation for $$$
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 20545
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:35 am

unrave wrote:
globetrotter94 wrote:


Oh so it's now an asset sale is it? A few pages back, posters in favor of the current plan of privatization were saying AI has no assets worth buying, but now it's an asset sale?


Nobody in their right mind thinks that AI has not assets worth selling. It AI's equity that has completely eroded to be of no value. While this is not exactly a pure asset sale - that happens when the company is wound down or close to being shut, like KF, much of the price that an acquirer will pay here can be attributed to the value of the assets


Some consistency from the pro-privatization people would be appreciated. If, after writing off the debt in question, AI remains a viable concern such that it would be of interest to other airline buyers, then why is there the need to sell it to what is in effect its rivals in the first place? Why not just spin-it off into a separate, autonomous company with professional management, forgive the aircraft debt as well, and let it go its own merry way, without disrupting its network structure, alliance affiliation, codeshares, or anything like that?


The debt is not being forgiven completely. Part of the debt, let us call it tranche A, will be assumed by the acquirer. The remaining debt, tranche B, will be moved to an SPV. The acquisition price will be used to pay down part of the debt in tranche B. What ever remains will be a haircut for the banks or paid by the government (the shareholder). This is how acquisitions of highly leveraged and unprofitable companies take place the world over. How much of the debt is taken over by the government ultimately depends on the valuation that AI fetches.

The primary aim of privatisation is for the government to get out of businesses, especially money bleeding unprofitable ones like AI. It doesn't make sense to forgive its debt and let it continue in its current form. It will only be a matter of time before we taxpayers are required to bail it out again.

Oh, and perhaps keep it in one piece as well, rather than disintegrating it into 4?

Value unlocking. When a large organisation with multiple business segments is being sold, it is common to split it into parts so that the valuation of the better performing/profitable parts are not bogged down by the unprofitable ones. In AI's case Turkish ground handling company Celebi has expressed interest in acquiring AI's ground handling division, AITSL, for example.

Globaltrotter: It is a strawman's argument that AI doesn't have assets.

Right now, if broken up and the GoI takes over a large portion of debt, air India is worth something. From all accounts about half the known debt.

Some buyers want an airline.
Some buyers want real estate.
Some want the ground service.
Some want the maintenance unit.

But none want it all. Best estimate of fair market value is half the debt.

That is at today's market. Every analysis shows the value of the parts declining by the quarter. Either AI is sold off or it will lose so much market share that no buyer wants the hassle.

International is only 16.6% of the market (posted links in prior posts in this thread).
Domestic is 13.3%. What is too little to matter? When will that threshold be crossed and it isn't worth taking over anything but the real estate?

Everything I've seen has needed expenses outside of operating expenses such as advertising and the required corporate overhead. In other words the operating profit is a fabrication.

India will be much better off when it is a bunch of private airlines compete for their business.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
sand26391
Posts: 672
Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 11:47 am

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:12 am

Four Indian airports make it to the TOP 100 Airports in the world for 2018 acc to Skytrax.
BOM(63rd), BLR(64th), DEL(66th) & HYD(75th)

http://www.worldairportawards.com/Award ... ating.html
 
Kashmon
Posts: 642
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 8:08 am

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:59 am

CaliguyNYC wrote:
Kashmon wrote:
globetrotter94 wrote:

And AI is also operationally VERY profitable -- they just GOT screwed over by a corrupt aviation ministry to buy more planes than they had any idea what to do with. We can all caveat and make exceptions until the crows come home. The fact of the matter is that CX is under enormous pressure from mainland Chinese carriers and also hamstrung by Hong Kong's declining (still big--but declining) relative importance in the Asia-Pacific region.

instead of assuming go and ready their operational profit figures from their annual report...
no explanations- their airline itself is competitive regardless of mainland competition and CX has always had competition
but you would not understand hedging... but I can't expect someone who thinks AI's incompetence is equivalent to CX to understand anything that involves basic math.

Hong Kong's not declining it is still growing and always has it just won't be the number one in everything like it used to be some mainland city will take over ( and about time they have 1.4 billion people and still have not caught up to HK)
- only in the mind of SIN fans is it declining- they have always envied HKG, in fact HK is the envy of most Asian governments. HKG is growing just fine and in line for a developed city, no decline or crash

the others are just catching up and with lots of debt - when a single east Asian city has the GDP per capita of HKG and virtually zero debt with 2 trillion dollar reserves lets talk.

as for India blitaterals with HKG

as long as Indian airlines and EK etc bribe the government to block CX from expanding into India CX has every right to use the same tactic in its home city and hog slots away from Indian carriers.

the focus of the Indian government should be the consumer, not private companies- international or domestic

EK should be allowed to expand as should CX- they should not be punished for the incompetence of domestic Indian airlines


HKG isn’t getting more frequencies because (1) HKG won’t give good slots to Indian carriers and most importantly (2) CX wants the seats to move pax from India to west coast of USA and Canada. Tell me why does India need to do this??? India already has a super liberal bilateral with the ME3 plus SE asia. China protects its airlines. Why can’t india? Do you work for CX or something? If HKG and China offered proper slots to India carriers with fifth freedoms onwards, then I agree, liberalize the bilateral (remember Jet with it’s ONE flight BOM-PVG-SFO that China gave HORRIBLE slots to). If they use protectionism then screw them. Btw no country is pro consumer and anti local business. It’s a balance between the two. On the Anet India boards the so called casual posters seem to think just give away everything and screw local airlines and local JOBS so people can fly for $5 less. What ever...Thank god for the current govt. Not perfect but better than the crap from before that sold indian aviation for $$$


HKG has no incentive to provide slots when India refuses more rights...
local airlines?
local jobs?

screw cronyism and unfair competition
that is worse for the consumer
you have a case when CX has the same rights as SQ or TG
but until then HKG has every right to hold its ground, especially when HKG allows Indian carriers fifth freedoms to NE Asia....

does UAE offer any fifth freedoms?
no

just bribes....
 
anshabhi
Posts: 2258
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:40 am

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:22 am

Kashmon wrote:
HKG has no incentive to provide slots when India refuses more rights...
local airlines?
local jobs?

screw cronyism and unfair competition
that is worse for the consumer
you have a case when CX has the same rights as SQ or TG
but until then HKG has every right to hold its ground, especially when HKG allows Indian carriers fifth freedoms to NE Asia....

does UAE offer any fifth freedoms?
no

just bribes....

You are comfortably ignoring the fact how many Indians live and work in ME and Singapore. ME have a lot of bilateral, which were misused later but the first reason was the large Indian migrant labour community there. How many Indians live and work in Hong Kong? Entire ME economies are being managed by Indians in one way or the other..

Secondly, the fifth freedoms are mutual. CX also operates cargo flights like DEL-LHR , and some other flights too.
And yes, Indian carriers are allowed to use unlimited 5th freedoms from AUH/DXB, but don't use because of business reasons.

and TG..? What special rights do they have.. In any case, liberal Bilaterals to SE Nations are a part of RCEP (Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnerships), which is a free trade agreement between India+ASEAN+Japan+Australia.
 
User avatar
globetrotter94
Posts: 427
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2016 5:05 am

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:13 am

Only 2.5 hours left until departure of AI's new DEL-TLV flight overflying Saudi. Flight is AI-139 (outbound)/AI-140 (inbound), ETD: 6:00PM IST, ETA: 9:45PM Israel Standard Time, Scheduled aircraft according to FR24 is VT-ANX, <2 year old Boeing 787-8 "Dreamliner". It is a historic moment for aviation!
6E, 9W, AF, AI, B6, BA, BI, BR, CA, DN, GA, IC, JL, KB, KL, KU, NH, QR, SQ, TG, TK, UA, VS
 
User avatar
globetrotter94
Posts: 427
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2016 5:05 am

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:21 am

anshabhi wrote:
You are comfortably ignoring the fact how many Indians live and work in ME and Singapore. ME have a lot of bilateral, which were misused later but the first reason was the large Indian migrant labour community there. How many Indians live and work in Hong Kong? Entire ME economies are being managed by Indians in one way or the other..


~22,000 Indian citizens + 28,500 PIOs according to Wiki (although latter category doesn't matter for the sake of this discussion)... which, as you rightly say, is an absolute pittance compared to the millions of Indian citizens living and earning in the UAE. Let's also not forget that India-UAE trade constitutes India's 2nd largest trade surplus with any country, more than 2X both the surplus and total trade with Hong Kong.
6E, 9W, AF, AI, B6, BA, BI, BR, CA, DN, GA, IC, JL, KB, KL, KU, NH, QR, SQ, TG, TK, UA, VS
 
GroundPlanner
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:51 am

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:42 am

May be a little off-topic, but I want to ask a few questions :) I just became a member, this is my first post... There are a few questions which have been tickling my mind for some time so I wanted to summarize them in one post. I hope nobody minds...

How is Indigo impacted by the 8 aircraft grounded because of the PW A320 Neo engines? What are the routes most impacted by this? Any ideas if the DGCA will revoke the flight-ban? Any updates when they will become operational?

Go Air and some flights of Spice Jet have moved to T2 in IGI Airport, is Indigo going to move some flights as well? I believe T2 is too small for the entire Indigo operation but could successfully handle Spice Jet and Go Air; why would Spice Jet not move all flights and risk so much inter-terminal transfers and confusion to stay in T1 instead of a newly renovated T2?

Regarding Kannur International Airport; what is the current status? Which Local / Domestic Carriers will fly there / do you expect to fly there?
Considering Kerala is feeding the Gulf region with labor and Kannur not being a very touristic destination; in terms of Int'l flights, what are the odds of more than a few Gulf LLC's?
 
User avatar
unrave
Posts: 2682
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:37 am

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:47 am

Couple of images from the Tel Aviv inaugural courtesy Air India Twitter
Image

Image
17April2019: RIP Jet Airways
 
User avatar
unrave
Posts: 2682
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:37 am

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:06 pm

GroundPlanner wrote:
I just became a member, this is my first post...

Welcome to Anet! You'll find that most Indian aviation enthusiasts here are a friendly bunch.

How is Indigo impacted by the 8 aircraft grounded because of the PW A320 Neo engines? What are the routes most impacted by this? Any ideas if the DGCA will revoke the flight-ban? Any updates when they will become operational?

Operationally, the grounding has been a blow for IndiGo. They have announced the cancellation of 600+ flights for the month of April. The ongoing PW engine fiasco has resulted in IndiGo losing market share from 42% to 40%. This grounding will further hamper their ability to ramp up operations. Financially they aren't likely to suffer as the engines are covered by performance penalties.


Go Air and some flights of Spice Jet have moved to T2 in IGI Airport, is Indigo going to move some flights as well?

Yes, IndiGo is also moving a bunch of its departures from T1 to T2.

believe T2 is too small for the entire Indigo operation but could successfully handle Spice Jet and Go Air; why would Spice Jet not move all flights and risk so much inter-terminal transfers and confusion to stay in T1 instead of a newly renovated T2?

The initial plan by DIAL was something along those lines but airlines refused because ceding T1 completely to 6E will give them an unfair advantage. T1 has better connectivity than T2,

Regarding Kannur International Airport; what is the current status?

Kannur is under construction and is slated to open in September 2018. A few months back an Indian Air Force plane landed at CNN to test flight operations.

Which Local / Domestic Carriers will fly there / do you expect to fly there?
Considering Kerala is feeding the Gulf region with labor and Kannur not being a very touristic destination; in terms of Int'l flights, what are the odds of more than a few Gulf LLC's?

Given that it is a new airport CNN is not on any bilateral, so foreign carriers will not be able to operate there. Several Indian carriers have assured flight operations to domestic and Gulf airports.
17April2019: RIP Jet Airways
 
JOYA380B747
Posts: 794
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 11:31 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:28 pm

Just wondering why BOM never got an airport on reclaimed land. I had asked this question a couple of years back (when a team from the Netherlands did a ground study in Mumbai and suggested the same) and was replied saying how it is so much more expensive for India to pay for such a huge investment which countries like China (and HongKong), Japan can dish out but not so much India. Isn't it because there is lesser possibility of under the table dealings, bribes, etc for a Govt in case of building on reclaimed land v/s on land?

http://www.firstpost.com/tech/news-anal ... 41429.html

Mumbai biggest loss IMO, was a second airport on reclaimed land like HKG or KIX, which would've been very expensive to build in the first place(when you don't consider the "other" expenses that would go into an airport on land like Navi Mumbai) but would be free from politics, or any problems of future expansibility in the forseeable future. Safe to say no project can ever happen in India until it can feed the coffers of the bloodsucking babus in one way or another.
India's biggest loss w.r.t global aviation (so far) - Being an Australasia-Europe stopover.
 
User avatar
unrave
Posts: 2682
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:37 am

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:35 pm

deleted.
Last edited by unrave on Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
17April2019: RIP Jet Airways
 
JOYA380B747
Posts: 794
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 11:31 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:42 pm

unrave wrote:
JOYA380B747 wrote:
Just wondering why BOM never got an airport on reclaimed land.

Supreme court issued a blanket ban on land reclamation around Mumbai in the 80s. There is no question of construction of airport on reclaimed land there.


How else would they go about with the coastal road project which has been rumored (correct me if I am wrong) to be reclaiming of around 164 hectares of land. I am unsure of the 80s blanket ban but I am pretty sure there were amendments or exceptions made afterwards. A Dutch company wouldn't have been called to assess the possibilities for the same back in 2013 when the state government was "toying with the idea of setting up the new airport on land reclaimed from the sea."
India's biggest loss w.r.t global aviation (so far) - Being an Australasia-Europe stopover.
 
binayak
Posts: 992
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2017 2:00 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:03 pm

Even I think the act was amended. The coastal road project is not just a rumour. Parts of land near Worli sea face has been reclaimed (anyone living in mumbai will understand the place I'm referring to ) for the purpose and the work is going on in full force.
When the villagers near navi mumbai airport area protested in november last year CIDCO had considered reclaiming land from the sea.
The best preparation for tomorrow is doing your best today
 
User avatar
unrave
Posts: 2682
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:37 am

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:03 pm

JOYA380B747 wrote:
How else would they go about with the coastal road project which has been rumored (correct me if I am wrong) to be reclaiming of around 164 hectares of land. I am unsure of the 80s blanket ban but I am pretty sure there were amendments or exceptions made afterwards. A Dutch company wouldn't have been called to assess the possibilities for the same back in 2013 when the state government was "toying with the idea of setting up the new airport on land reclaimed from the sea."

Ok, looks like I jumped the gun there. In the late 80s SC directed the MH govt to regulate the reclamation of land leading to CRZ ruled being passed in 1991 which severely limited reclamation.
17April2019: RIP Jet Airways
 
binayak
Posts: 992
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2017 2:00 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:07 pm

unrave wrote:
Couple of images from the Tel Aviv inaugural courtesy Air India Twitter

The TVs of Delhi airport look quite old as compared to others
The best preparation for tomorrow is doing your best today
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 1244
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:58 pm

Kashmon wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
Kashmon wrote:
instead of assuming go and ready their operational profit figures from their annual report...
no explanations- their airline itself is competitive regardless of mainland competition and CX has always had competition
but you would not understand hedging... but I can't expect someone who thinks AI's incompetence is equivalent to CX to understand anything that involves basic math.

Hong Kong's not declining it is still growing and always has it just won't be the number one in everything like it used to be some mainland city will take over ( and about time they have 1.4 billion people and still have not caught up to HK)
- only in the mind of SIN fans is it declining- they have always envied HKG, in fact HK is the envy of most Asian governments. HKG is growing just fine and in line for a developed city, no decline or crash

the others are just catching up and with lots of debt - when a single east Asian city has the GDP per capita of HKG and virtually zero debt with 2 trillion dollar reserves lets talk.

as for India blitaterals with HKG

as long as Indian airlines and EK etc bribe the government to block CX from expanding into India CX has every right to use the same tactic in its home city and hog slots away from Indian carriers.

the focus of the Indian government should be the consumer, not private companies- international or domestic

EK should be allowed to expand as should CX- they should not be punished for the incompetence of domestic Indian airlines


HKG isn’t getting more frequencies because (1) HKG won’t give good slots to Indian carriers and most importantly (2) CX wants the seats to move pax from India to west coast of USA and Canada. Tell me why does India need to do this??? India already has a super liberal bilateral with the ME3 plus SE asia. China protects its airlines. Why can’t india? Do you work for CX or something? If HKG and China offered proper slots to India carriers with fifth freedoms onwards, then I agree, liberalize the bilateral (remember Jet with it’s ONE flight BOM-PVG-SFO that China gave HORRIBLE slots to). If they use protectionism then screw them. Btw no country is pro consumer and anti local business. It’s a balance between the two. On the Anet India boards the so called casual posters seem to think just give away everything and screw local airlines and local JOBS so people can fly for $5 less. What ever...Thank god for the current govt. Not perfect but better than the crap from before that sold indian aviation for $$$


HKG has no incentive to provide slots when India refuses more rights...
local airlines?
local jobs?

screw cronyism and unfair competition
that is worse for the consumer
you have a case when CX has the same rights as SQ or TG
but until then HKG has every right to hold its ground, especially when HKG allows Indian carriers fifth freedoms to NE Asia....

does UAE offer any fifth freedoms?
no

just bribes....


Why does HK not have to provide slots because India won't provide more flights? Didn't India provide slots for all the frequencies that CX wanted? Once HKG provides India with all the slots provided for in the last bilateral, then new rights would be provided. "screw cronyism and unfair competition" - what are you even trying to say here? Bilaterals are all tried with with overall business conditions between two countries and travel needs. India gave generous bilaterals to SE Asia as part of govt policy of bringing ASEAN into India's orbit (meaning dependent on India for things). The UAE tried playing this same blackmail game and the GOI pushed back - great. Anyway, your post is very confusing if you are a casual traveler. But then again so many posts on this board are.
 
vadodara
Posts: 1146
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:45 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:04 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
Kashmon wrote:
globetrotter94 wrote:

And AI is also operationally VERY profitable -- they just GOT screwed over by a corrupt aviation ministry to buy more planes than they had any idea what to do with. We can all caveat and make exceptions until the crows come home. The fact of the matter is that CX is under enormous pressure from mainland Chinese carriers and also hamstrung by Hong Kong's declining (still big--but declining) relative importance in the Asia-Pacific region.

instead of assuming go and ready their operational profit figures from their annual report...
no explanations- their airline itself is competitive regardless of mainland competition and CX has always had competition
but you would not understand hedging... but I can't expect someone who thinks AI's incompetence is equivalent to CX to understand anything that involves basic math.

Hong Kong's not declining it is still growing and always has it just won't be the number one in everything like it used to be some mainland city will take over ( and about time they have 1.4 billion people and still have not caught up to HK)
- only in the mind of SIN fans is it declining- they have always envied HKG, in fact HK is the envy of most Asian governments. HKG is growing just fine and in line for a developed city, no decline or crash

the others are just catching up and with lots of debt - when a single east Asian city has the GDP per capita of HKG and virtually zero debt with 2 trillion dollar reserves lets talk.

as for India blitaterals with HKG

as long as Indian airlines and EK etc bribe the government to block CX from expanding into India CX has every right to use the same tactic in its home city and hog slots away from Indian carriers.

the focus of the Indian government should be the consumer, not private companies- international or domestic

EK should be allowed to expand as should CX- they should not be punished for the incompetence of domestic Indian airlines


HKG isn’t getting more frequencies because (1) HKG won’t give good slots to Indian carriers and most importantly (2) CX wants the seats to move pax from India to west coast of USA and Canada. Tell me why does India need to do this??? India already has a super liberal bilateral with the ME3 plus SE asia. China protects its airlines. Why can’t india? Do you work for CX or something? If HKG and China offered proper slots to India carriers with fifth freedoms onwards, then I agree, liberalize the bilateral (remember Jet with it’s ONE flight BOM-PVG-SFO that China gave HORRIBLE slots to). If they use protectionism then screw them. Btw no country is pro consumer and anti local business. It’s a balance between the two. On the Anet India boards the so called casual posters seem to think just give away everything and screw local airlines and local JOBS so people can fly for $5 less. What ever...Thank god for the current govt. Not perfect but better than the crap from before that sold indian aviation for $$$


I think I would be the casual poster who supports liberal flying. I would agree, if CX wants more flights, then HKG authorities need to provide reciprocal slots so Indian carriers can fly.

I would tend to suggest that if someone wants to fly to secondary cities, it would be in interest of India to allow them to fly. It makes no sense for the govt. to block say CX from flying to Ahmedabad or Jaipur or Gauhati.
 
vadodara
Posts: 1146
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:45 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:08 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
vadodara wrote:
binayak wrote:
Yes this must be one of the first things .
Little did 9W know that the market will turn out to be so price sensitive. They still thought that they will win the heart of travellers with good service. Well their survival is more of a luck else they would have had the same fate like KF .


Price sensitive? I thought BOM was a premium market. Only 1st class seats needed. Just follow the BOM hub-wallah's posts on this forum.


Coach in India is very price sensitive, even in BOM. That said BOM is still India's most premium market (and before you go there it's nowhere as premium as LHR, JFK, HKG, SFO, etc but it is a long way from VFR/Worker dominated MAA, HYD, TRV etc - only BOM, DEL & BLR come close to somewhat premium global markets). ME3 operate some of their best products to BOM because of the premium demand. The issue in BOM is that the ME3 are so dominant and the local carriers relatively weak, that premium customers are spread amongst many airlines. In most countries, the dominant local carrier in a premium market, captures a good amount of premium traffic due to FF programs and corporate accounts. AI and 9W have not done a good job of this in the past. With the AF/KL/DL/VS/9W partnership, 9W is finally making good inroads with premium clients and guess what....the ME3 and others are feeling it.


It seems to me, based on the marketshare of the likes of Indigo and even an Air India Express, there is a bit of unserved market in the LCC space.

Why have a policy that is dovetailed around BOM, DEL and BLR, which as you put is where the premium market is. Afterall, these 3 cities constitute only a fraction of Indian population and economy. In denying others an opportunity, you are restricting those regions from growth.
 
binayak
Posts: 992
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2017 2:00 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:22 pm

vadodara wrote:
I think I would be the casual poster who supports liberal flying. I would agree, if CX wants more flights, then HKG authorities need to provide reciprocal slots so Indian carriers can fly.

I would tend to suggest that if someone wants to fly to secondary cities, it would be in interest of India to allow them to fly. It makes no sense for the govt. to block say CX from flying to Ahmedabad or Jaipur or Gauhati.

It was even earlier said that bilaterals are mostly based on O&D and a bit for connecting traffic. As such there is hardly any traffic for HKG from the cities you mentioned. What was done for EK need not be repeated .
I'm not against foreign airlines operating to smaller cities. We have a few operating there but the govt must keep it to a limit and not let more foreign carriers flood the market. The new govt is trying to make connectivity to those places better through our own carriers by UDAN scheme.
The best preparation for tomorrow is doing your best today
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8451
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:26 pm

unrave wrote:
Nobody in their right mind thinks that AI has not assets worth selling. It AI's equity that has completely eroded to be of no value. While this is not exactly a pure asset sale - that happens when the company is wound down or close to being shut, like KF, much of the price that an acquirer will pay here can be attributed to the value of the assets


AI's real estate assets are an entangled mess. PSU Banks hold lien on buildings, some of which are on leased land owned by state/city governments. So to sell a building AI has to payoff SBI/PNB and convince say State of Maharashtra to transfer long term lease to the new buyer.

This is where airlines like QR or DL with deep pockets have an advantage. Anyone goes in $3B cash will make money by buying 100% of all AI units. Kick government and PSU Banks out.

Imagine AIESL as Delta Techops subsidiary, it will become Asia's largest MRO provider overnight.
All posts are just opinions.
 
User avatar
unrave
Posts: 2682
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:37 am

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:48 pm

vadodara wrote:

It seems to me, based on the marketshare of the likes of Indigo and even an Air India Express, there is a bit of unserved market in the LCC space.

Why have a policy that is dovetailed around BOM, DEL and BLR, which as you put is where the premium market is. Afterall, these 3 cities constitute only a fraction of Indian population and economy. In denying others an opportunity, you are restricting those regions from growth.


Yup, look no further than CJB and TRZ. Both are secondary cities in TN. Both airports acquired international status around the same time. But the powers that be for reasons known only to them decided that TRZ will be part of the ASEAN bilateral and CJB will not. Look what has happened since then: international traffic to TRZ has exploded while CJB has stagnated.

binayak wrote:
I'm not against foreign airlines operating to smaller cities. We have a few operating there but the govt must keep it to a limit and not let more foreign carriers flood the market.

This is backwards logic! You would want as much as your premium traffic as possible to fly with local carriers, and this premium traffic is found in the big cities. Look at what Australia does: their bilaterals typically grant restricted rights to SYD, MEL and BNE - the DEL, BOM and BLR of Australia - and grant liberal flying rights to other airports. For some strange reason India does it backwards, and it is retarded. The smaller airports of India are starved of international connectivity while the government forces everyone to compete for the same traffic at DEL-BOM-BLR
17April2019: RIP Jet Airways
 
vadodara
Posts: 1146
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:45 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:58 pm

binayak wrote:
It was even earlier said that bilaterals are mostly based on O&D and a bit for connecting traffic. As such there is hardly any traffic for HKG from the cities you mentioned. What was done for EK need not be repeated .
I'm not against foreign airlines operating to smaller cities. We have a few operating there but the govt must keep it to a limit and not let more foreign carriers flood the market. The new govt is trying to make connectivity to those places better through our own carriers by UDAN scheme.


I fail to see your logic here other than 'blocking' access.

As many posters love to mention on this board, cities like AMD have only VFR traffic which the likes of Jet Airways are not interested in serving. So what if the EK's and SQ's and CX's want to serve?
 
binayak
Posts: 992
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2017 2:00 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:26 pm

vadodara wrote:
I fail to see your logic here other than 'blocking' access.
As many posters love to mention on this board, cities like AMD have only VFR traffic which the likes of Jet Airways are not interested in serving. So what if the EK's and SQ's and CX's want to serve?

I can't understand that how can you claim that 9W and other indian carriers do not wanna serve the VFR from AMD? The main motto of EK , SQ , CX , 9W , AI, at AMD is the same i e connect it to their hub which I think all are doing.
I don't know whether you want to have non stops from AMD or are you not comfortable connecting at hubs like DEL or you wanna see more b777s land at AMD. Having no int'l flight does not mean the airline is not targeting the pax . You all expect either foreign airlines to arrive at your city from their hubs and provide one stops to far off places or our indian airlines to have more " non stops " from your city to far off places . So I must say that your expectations from Indian carriers are too much and they won't be met in the near future.
Limiting foreign carriers will not only help our indian ones grow but also create new jobs. We are all heading towards creating new global hubs in india and for that even folks from smaller cities need to cooperate and have some faith in our airlines.
Last edited by binayak on Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The best preparation for tomorrow is doing your best today
 
binayak
Posts: 992
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2017 2:00 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:38 pm

unrave wrote:
binayak wrote:
I'm not against foreign airlines operating to smaller cities. We have a few operating there but the govt must keep it to a limit and not let more foreign carriers flood the market.

This is backwards logic! You would want as much as your premium traffic as possible to fly with local carriers, and this premium traffic is found in the big cities. Look at what Australia does: their bilaterals typically grant restricted rights to SYD, MEL and BNE - the DEL, BOM and BLR of Australia - and grant liberal flying rights to other airports. For some strange reason India does it backwards, and it is retarded. The smaller airports of India are starved of international connectivity while the government forces everyone to compete for the same traffic at DEL-BOM-BLR

One thing I would like to tell you: Look at Australia's geographical location. As far as I think anyone except SQ will hesitate to operate to any small city there given the distance they have to travel . So any way there won't be foreign airlines flooding the market and their carriers will be protected despite such liberal policies by their govt.
Now look at India , we have so many int'l hubs around our subcontinent. What I think can be a solution is having multiple daily non stops from those smaller cities to DEL/BOM. and allow those folks to complete immigration and customs at their home airport if they wanna avoid long queues at hubs. Letting multiple foreign carriers flood the small cities in the name of int'l connectivity will not be good for our aviation industry. If the demand rises, then even AI and 9W will operate wide bodies with world class facilities to those places.
The best preparation for tomorrow is doing your best today
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 1244
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:40 pm

vadodara wrote:
binayak wrote:
It was even earlier said that bilaterals are mostly based on O&D and a bit for connecting traffic. As such there is hardly any traffic for HKG from the cities you mentioned. What was done for EK need not be repeated .
I'm not against foreign airlines operating to smaller cities. We have a few operating there but the govt must keep it to a limit and not let more foreign carriers flood the market. The new govt is trying to make connectivity to those places better through our own carriers by UDAN scheme.


I fail to see your logic here other than 'blocking' access.

As many posters love to mention on this board, cities like AMD have only VFR traffic which the likes of Jet Airways are not interested in serving. So what if the EK's and SQ's and CX's want to serve?


Well once you get a decent level of international connectivity (especially for key O&D routes), doesn't the GOI also have a responsibility to improve domestic connectivity as well? What I mean by that people flying internationally through BLR, MAA, BOM, DEL to international destinations allow more frequencies between that city and BLR, MAA, BOM, DEL. So while TRV should absolutely be connected to key international O&D locations (and I think it have great connectivity to key cities in the gulf), you also want some of these international flyers to fly through BLR, MAA, BOM, DEL. They help put butts in seats and allow for a BLR-AMS flight to happen. It is a balancing act that the govt needs to play. Btw AMD probably has the biggest claim to be annoyed in India - it has wealth, large diaspora, business (although not very premium) and poor international connectivity. The South, in general, has done much much better with international flights.
 
sibibom
Posts: 468
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2016 7:04 am

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:51 pm

In other news AI139 has entered Saudi Arabia on its way to Tel Aviv! Hell just froze over!
 
anshabhi
Posts: 2258
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:40 am

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:01 pm

unrave wrote:
History has just been made! After 70 years an Israel bound aircraft has entered Saudi Arabian airspace.

Image courtesy: Flightradar24 on Twitter

Congratulations to everyone involved who made this possible. This is nothing short of a foreign policy masterstroke by the Indian government.
Here's to even stronger relations with a country that has always had India's back.

I'm glad that that the sceptics and naysayers have been proven wrong!

Awesome !! But I heard AI used to fly over Saudi in 1990's to TLV on BOM-TLV route..?
 
User avatar
unrave
Posts: 2682
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:37 am

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:02 pm

History has just been made! After 70 years an Israel bound aircraft has entered Saudi Arabian airspace.
Image
Image courtesy: Flightradar24 on Twitter

Congratulations to everyone involved who made this possible. This is nothing short of a foreign policy masterstroke by the Indian government.
Here's to even stronger relations with a country that has always had India's back.

I'm glad that that the sceptics and naysayers have been proven wrong!
17April2019: RIP Jet Airways
 
User avatar
unrave
Posts: 2682
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:37 am

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:14 pm

anshabhi wrote:
Awesome !! But I heard AI used to fly over Saudi in 1990's to TLV on BOM-TLV route..?

Several news sites have reported that the ban has been lifted after 70 years. I have come across this BOM-TLV in the 90s claim too, but only in the comments section. Is there anyway to know for sure?
17April2019: RIP Jet Airways
 
anshabhi
Posts: 2258
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:40 am

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:16 pm

unrave wrote:
anshabhi wrote:
Awesome !! But I heard AI used to fly over Saudi in 1990's to TLV on BOM-TLV route..?

Several news sites have reported that the ban has been lifted after 70 years. I have come across this BOM-TLV in the 90s claim too, but only in the comments section. Is there anyway to know for sure?

There are several sources which say AI used to fly DEL-TLV using A310 until 1990's, but there's no confirmation about Saudi Overflying.

Ex;:Air India’s Airbus A310 planes flew directly to Israel from Delhi until mid-1990s and Mumbai until early 2000 after which the flights were withdrawn for commercial reasons.
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... I4DRK.html
 
vadodara
Posts: 1146
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:45 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:39 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
Btw AMD probably has the biggest claim to be annoyed in India - it has wealth, large diaspora, business (although not very premium) and poor international connectivity. The South, in general, has done much much better with international flights.


Precisely. It also has a very large flyer numbers. Those could be even larger if there was better air connectivity. Now, lets get to your initial arguments.

CaliguyNYC wrote:
Well once you get a decent level of international connectivity (especially for key O&D routes), doesn't the GOI also have a responsibility to improve domestic connectivity as well? What I mean by that people flying internationally through BLR, MAA, BOM, DEL to international destinations allow more frequencies between that city and BLR, MAA, BOM, DEL.


Lets take the case of BOM. Ironically, it was a JRD Tata committee that came up with the Santa Cruz - Sahar idea. If you combine that with local Bombay politics, why should the GOI have a responsibility to ensure BOM maintains its primacy?

I think the term 'competitive fedralism' comes to mind here. BOM needs to compete for business.

If Bombay and Maharashtra wants 'business', it needs to have a better model than bunch of Shiv Sena guys shaking travellers who are trying to transit from Sahar to Santa Cruz. If you say 'it is not the case now', sorry, looks like you missed the bus. There are others in the game now, viz. DXB, AUH, DOH. If you go back couple of decades, it was SIN.
 
vadodara
Posts: 1146
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:45 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:42 pm

binayak wrote:
Limiting foreign carriers will not only help our indian ones grow but also create new jobs. We are all heading towards creating new global hubs in india and for that even folks from smaller cities need to cooperate and have some faith in our airlines.


This is Air India speak. They have a big sugar daddy in GOI to pay for their stupidity. If Jet Airways thinks like Air India, its chances of survival may not be very high.
 
nmraja
Posts: 146
Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2009 8:59 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:17 pm

unrave wrote:
Yup, look no further than CJB and TRZ. Both are secondary cities in TN. Both airports acquired international status around the same time. But the powers that be for reasons known only to them decided that TRZ will be part of the ASEAN bilateral and CJB will not. Look what has happened since then: international traffic to TRZ has exploded while CJB has stagnated.



IXM is in the same boat as CJB unfortunately. :( As you said TRZ has been enjoying the benefits at the cost of IXM and CJB who deserve their share of the pie.

Air Asia (parent) had been showing interest in serving IXM even about 15 years back, but couldn't do it due to the ASEAN bilaterals. Hopefully Air Asia India will serve IXM-Malaysia soon.
Raja.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8451
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:02 am

vadodara wrote:
... why should the GOI have a responsibility to ensure BOM maintains its primacy? ...


But Prime Minister's Office(PMO) acting as Gujarat Economic Development Board, diverting all federal funds and projects to Gujarat is perfectly acceptable.

Rest of the country has to repay $34B fancy perpetual loss making 300 mile High Speed Railway project enjoyed by ONE state.
All posts are just opinions.
 
User avatar
unrave
Posts: 2682
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:37 am

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:50 am

VT-ANX at TLV
Image
Image courtesy: AFP
17April2019: RIP Jet Airways
 
binayak
Posts: 992
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2017 2:00 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:23 am

Anyone here knows about the load factors on the first DEL TLV flight. I'm curious to know that.
The best preparation for tomorrow is doing your best today
 
User avatar
unrave
Posts: 2682
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:37 am

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:41 am

Video link of AI193water cannon salute at TLV: https://twitter.com/airindiain/status/9 ... 1173518336
17April2019: RIP Jet Airways
 
User avatar
Slash787
Posts: 951
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 9:37 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:30 pm

A lot of Indians go to UAE, Saudi, Kuwait, Bahrain. So won't they have a problem with an Israeli Stamp/Visa on their passport? I don't think so many Indians have a 2nd passport.
 
vadodara
Posts: 1146
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:45 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:41 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
vadodara wrote:
... why should the GOI have a responsibility to ensure BOM maintains its primacy? ...


But Prime Minister's Office(PMO) acting as Gujarat Economic Development Board, diverting all federal funds and projects to Gujarat is perfectly acceptable.

Rest of the country has to repay $34B fancy perpetual loss making 300 mile High Speed Railway project enjoyed by ONE state.


Like your audited Air India books, any basis to your statements?

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos