Tiger119
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Re: Toronto-bound Porter Airlines passengers told to delete videos or face arrest

Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:00 am

georgiaame wrote:
Pity for them they WEREN'T arrested. In America, we have this funny thing called "free speech". I know it isn't for everyone I know, but it works, and is recognized by all of our courts. They could have made a hell of a lot of money on this one, and would never have to fly Porter again in the future.


In some states, if the post is truthful, that employee could be charged with battery and disorderly conduct. Not all states require actual physical contact, and that is how some states get around the non-witnessed domestic violence arrests.
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777PHX
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Re: Toronto-bound Porter Airlines passengers told to delete videos or face arrest

Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:16 am

vatveng wrote:
SheikhDjibouti wrote:
I'm not sure about the "most airports are owned by a government or government agency" bit.
I suspect this varies considerably from country to country. So; where are you basing your perceptions on?
[...]
Basically, everywhere I look, I see either Government investment (but at arm's length) or non-Government ownership.


In the US, with just a handful of exceptions, commercial airports are owned by a State or City government (or in some cases multiple State governments; see PANYNJ) and operated by an agency of said government. Their top management in most cases is appointed by, answers to, and serves at the pleasure of one or more elected officials.


It's sort of a gray area. I know at several airports, airlines either own their terminal buildings entirely or own a portion of them. I believe WN owns their building at STL, for example. I'm pretty sure DL owns many of their facilities at their hubs. At any rate, if you're being disruptive and they order you to leave, there's not much you can do about it.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Toronto-bound Porter Airlines passengers told to delete videos or face arrest

Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:39 am

The relative easy access and ability to record due to smartphones almost every teen and adult have means a lot more recording. Many record conflicts like with airlines so have evidence to protect their consumer rights and of what they consider to be improper, unprofessional or lying behavior so not just a person's word vs another's. to prove they were 'right' even if dead wrong. Of course many service persons don't want to be recorded as may show the awful truth, even if per their employer's rules as to what they do, fear the recording may be altered to make the look bad, maybe lose their job even if doing it per rules, or not becoming blasted all over the internet and fear for their lives or privacy.
 
m007j
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Re: Toronto-bound Porter Airlines passengers told to delete videos or face arrest

Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:04 am

MD88CLE wrote:
bagoldex wrote:
flydude380 wrote:

That's fine. Each to their own.

Want to compliment me on my customer service? Write to my company about it, I tell my customers. Not happy with my service or company policies? Once again, write in about it.


It's your job and you're compensated for providing exceptional customer service so I won't be writing any thank you letters but if you seriously screw up, it's vastly more effective to get it on tape for the others to see.


I think this is a large part of the problem.

Yes, it is too bad that people have felt the need to record things instead of bringing their concerns to the company. But from what I have seen companies also care less and less unless there is a video and threat of a social media firestorm. You can blame the people who record for starting the cycle, but now that it's started it seems to be the way things are.


Amen.
Few people will pull out a recording device unprovoked. And if you're a public facing employee who has put them in that position, it's no one's fault but yours. There plenty of ways to de-escalate that, but people get a badge, get to sit behind a desk, and think they're God almighty. It should serve as a reality check to get a camera in your face that you're just like the rest of us.
 
N415XJ
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Re: Toronto-bound Porter Airlines passengers told to delete videos or face arrest

Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:11 am

EDIT: You know what? Nevermind. I just realized how little I care what anyone on a.net of all places has to say about filming law.
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: Toronto-bound Porter Airlines passengers told to delete videos or face arrest

Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:00 am

First off, are these Porter employees or third party employees? And are they Canadian citizens or American? Good on Porter (the company, not the stooges working for them), BOS, and the news outlets for conveying the law.

You have no expectation of privacy in public. It amuses me when people freak out over one guy with a camera when there are 100's of cameras pointed at them. It also amuses me that no one who has issues with cameras seem to know the law. Unless you are a law enforcement official, you cannot force someone to stop filming and you ESPECIALLY can't force them to delete their footage, take their device, and assault them.

There are two options to those who don't like being filmed:
1. If the person is doing nothing illegal, leave them be. If they are breaking the law (something else, filming in itself is not a crime) call law enforcement.
2. Quit your public job and stay at home with the curtains closed.
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Thomaas
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Re: Toronto-bound Porter Airlines passengers told to delete videos or face arrest

Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:36 am

I’m surprised at many of the responses on this thread. I doubt many of you would happily have a camera pointed at your face to record every single one of your responses at work. Filming an employee is a form of intimidation and harassment and should not be tolerated.
 
hz747300
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Re: Toronto-bound Porter Airlines passengers told to delete videos or face arrest

Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:01 am

Man, if someone filmed me at this job I am doing now, they'd be bored out of their minds. They could put it on that channel that is designed to help people sleep better.
Keep on truckin'...
 
bagoldex
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Re: Toronto-bound Porter Airlines passengers told to delete videos or face arrest

Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:19 am

Thomaas wrote:
I’m surprised at many of the responses on this thread. I doubt many of you would happily have a camera pointed at your face to record every single one of your responses at work. Filming an employee is a form of intimidation and harassment and should not be tolerated.


I've flown almost two million miles in my adult life(I'm 33). I've never experienced a situation where I've been compelled to record an incident but if I am being seriously wronged or if someone else is, I'm going to document it. One thirty second video on YouTube and/or Twitter is going to do a lot more to change policy and behavior than a letter, or worse, letting people get away with it.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Toronto-bound Porter Airlines passengers told to delete videos or face arrest

Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:31 am

It is strange. Here we have the rule obsessed airline staff when it comes to passenger obeying rules. But the same group does not like to obey rules themselves.
When in an public area you can be videotaped. That is the rule. Suck it up, you do not have the right to stop people from videotaping you.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Toronto-bound Porter Airlines passengers told to delete videos or face arrest

Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:48 am

Thomaas wrote:
I’m surprised at many of the responses on this thread. I doubt many of you would happily have a camera pointed at your face to record every single one of your responses at work. Filming an employee is a form of intimidation and harassment and should not be tolerated.


With so many places, shops and businesses littered with CCTV, many people are "under surveillance" all day at work.

hz747300 wrote:
Man, if someone filmed me at this job I am doing now, they'd be bored out of their minds. They could put it on that channel that is designed to help people sleep better.


Been there, done that! :lol:
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tcfc424
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Re: Toronto-bound Porter Airlines passengers told to delete videos or face arrest

Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:18 pm

So...the delay of Porter Airlines has evolved into a free speech debate and discussion of what constitutes a public versus private place. Oh, and why Canadians have the Canadian flag on their luggage.

My question is related to the delay...a weather-caused frozen cargo hold latch. And it took 3 days to rectify the situation. This, I don't understand. I do understand the crew timing out. So, in 12-24 hours they would be legal to fly again. Surely, within that time frame maintenance could thaw the cargo door enough to open it. It would be my belief that there was more to the mechanical issue than a frozen (by the cold) cargo latch, and thus would require the airline to take care of pax expenses, as well as compensate them for the delay.
 
Calder
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Re: Toronto-bound Porter Airlines passengers told to delete videos or face arrest

Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:35 pm

longhauler wrote:
I find people tend to use their cameras as an act of (passive) agression, not just in the airline world, but everywhere. As long as we back them and "like" them, they will continue.

I recently had an incident where when leaving the forward lav to go to the cockpit, a Business Class passenger jumped past the curtain (and Flight Attendant) to use the lav. When I explained to him politely that that Canadian Air Regulations requires that he be on the other side of the curtain (and F/A) while the cockpit door was opened, his answer was "you can wait".

Again, I explained the rules and he pulled out his phone and placed it two inches from my nose, "daring" me to do something.

So, I took a deep breath and said to his phone "I am Captain Longhauler, commanding Air Canada flight AAA, from BBB to CCC on Decmeber XX. 2017. I have asked this gentleman twice, and now three times to comply with CARs and leave the galley area while the cockpit door is opened." Then I told him ... see there, a security camera, over there, another camera, and back there, a third camera ... all recording this. So ... if this doesn't go as you hope, you won't be able to delete every copy of this interaction when the authorities are called when we reach CCC. And trust me, I am required to call the authorities at CCC if you don't comply with Canadian Air Regulations.

He swore loudly and went back to his seat.


What a professional response.

I hope I'm able to handle myself similarly if I ever find myself in the same type of situation.
C. T.
 
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awschucks77
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Re: Toronto-bound Porter Airlines passengers told to delete videos or face arrest

Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:59 pm

I have no trust in Porter Airlines. Our flights BOS-YTZ-YOW were cancelled back in August due to crew issues. We were told that we could alternate means of transportation and we'd be reimbursed. False. We were not. Because of this incident, and others, I simply cannot fly and will not fly Porter again.
 
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longhauler
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Re: Toronto-bound Porter Airlines passengers told to delete videos or face arrest

Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:06 pm

Calder wrote:
I hope I'm able to handle myself similarly if I ever find myself in the same type of situation.

One thing social media (and this forum) has taught me, is to imagine any interaction on facebook and how it would look.

I have boatloads of respect for our gate agents. A tough job at the best of time, with this new twist, it can't be any easier.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
Dominion301
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Re: Toronto-bound Porter Airlines passengers told to delete videos or face arrest

Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:20 pm

awschucks77 wrote:
I have no trust in Porter Airlines. Our flights BOS-YTZ-YOW were cancelled back in August due to crew issues. We were told that we could alternate means of transportation and we'd be reimbursed. False. We were not. Because of this incident, and others, I simply cannot fly and will not fly Porter again.


Why didn't you just fly BOS-YOW nonstop on AC?
 
qcpilotxf
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Re: Toronto-bound Porter Airlines passengers told to delete videos or face arrest

Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:26 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
qcpilotxf wrote:
Thats funny you say that, I have worked in an airport for many years. The exact quote from the airport police and administrator on this topic is "The airport is a public place, we can't stop the public from doing things that don't impede security". If it is owned by a government or a government agency (which most are) that means it is public.

I'm not sure about the "most airports are owned by a government or government agency" bit.
I suspect this varies considerably from country to country. So; where are you basing your perceptions on?

Basically, everywhere I look, I see either Government investment (but at arm's length) or non-Government ownership.


Since we are speaking almost exclusively about the United States here (since this is where this occurred), most airports in the US are owned by Airport Authorities, which are fully owned by the municipalities in the area. They receive government funding and have leaders appointed by local officials or even elected in some places. Granted there are a few exceptions to this rule, most of those exceptions still receive government.

Even in cases in the US where it might appear that another company "owns" the airport, normally it is an operational lease and the local government still owns the physical airport.
 
Aptivaboy
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Re: Toronto-bound Porter Airlines passengers told to delete videos or face arrest

Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:45 pm

Recording is absolutely allowed in airports, even in some (thought not all) TSA and CBP secured areas. The First Amendment audit folks went nuts (in a good way) a few years ago when this video was posted, because an officer actually knew the Constitution and applicable law and refused to halt filming in an airport. Now, not every LEO and airport employee knows the law, but this gentleman clearly did and protected the filmers' right to record.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1CjZN2H5-8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5ZiMoo43HU

Now, semi-public and private places are subject to different rules, as I stated earlier. And yes, airlines can attempt to prohibit photography of their personnel and can write such things into the CoCs and other policies. However, if the photography is being done in a public or in certain situations semi-public locations, then the First Amendment will trump those internal airline rules.

It all comes down, in the end, to an expectation of privacy. Many would argue that there is no such expectation in a crowded airport terminal, especially if you're an airline worker manning a busy customer service or gate desk where your job entails interacting with large swaths of the public. Think about it - how would the news media be able to report on airline and airport issues if they couldn't film within a terminal at times for fear of taping a random airport or airline worker? They wouldn't be able to, which would chill free speech. But, since there is no reasonable expectation of privacy in a crowded airport terminal, they can.
 
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tlecam
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Re: Toronto-bound Porter Airlines passengers told to delete videos or face arrest

Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:58 pm

Thomaas wrote:
I’m surprised at many of the responses on this thread. I doubt many of you would happily have a camera pointed at your face to record every single one of your responses at work. Filming an employee is a form of intimidation and harassment and should not be tolerated.


This is hyperbole. No one was filming "every single one of [their] responses at work."

People did film what appears to be a poorly handled situation, by Porter. Porter did not want that situation being recorded because it was being poorly handled.

That aside - I did not realize that the Q400 came with a door that didn't work in certain types of weather, therefore causing a weather delay.

Seems strange to me, at least on the surface. Probably another reason why Porter didn't want any of the incident documented.
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vfw614
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Re: Toronto-bound Porter Airlines passengers told to delete videos or face arrest

Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:09 pm

I think a couple of legal aspects get mixed up here.

Whether someone is allowed to film in a terminal or not is a different legal issue than whether someone can film an individual and post his/her image on a commercial website as this concerns that individual's right of publicity. And this, of course, also makes it different from surveillance cameras as images taken by such cameras cannot and will not be used in a similar way. While the right of publicity for someone working in a public space and in a professional capacity might be judged somewhat differently than someone's right of publicity filmed in his back garden a home, I would be very surprised if that right would be non-existent.

To give you an idea on the right of publicity, in my country currently a divorced father is before court for posting a picture of his child on facebook because of a violation of the child's right of publicity (the mother had sole custody and had not consented).

Generally speaking, in times of social media, mobil devices, government snooping around etc., there is worrying trend that privacy rights of individuals are no longer respected.
 
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awschucks77
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Re: Toronto-bound Porter Airlines passengers told to delete videos or face arrest

Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:14 pm

@Dominion301 -- AC was twice the price.
 
rajincajun01
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Re: Toronto-bound Porter Airlines passengers told to delete videos or face arrest

Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:41 pm

m007j wrote:
Amen.
Few people will pull out a recording device unprovoked. And if you're a public facing employee who has put them in that position, it's no one's fault but yours. There plenty of ways to de-escalate that, but people get a badge, get to sit behind a desk, and think they're God almighty. It should serve as a reality check to get a camera in your face that you're just like the rest of us.


You say “few people”, which shows there are people that are just looking for confrontation. You go on to argue that it’s the employees fault when that happens. THAT is the exact argument that entitles people to shove a camera in people’s face unprovoked, looking for compensation or fame. Just because someone has a badge doesn’t make them deserving of that treatment, or in need of a “reality check”.
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NichCage
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Re: Toronto-bound Porter Airlines passengers told to delete videos or face arrest

Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:47 pm

I guess it depends on the flight or airline you are flying on whatever you can film onboard or not. Some flight attendants care and some won't bother you if the camera is out.

I don't think it's a crime at all to be filming someone or something stupid. If your being stupid enough that you should be fired you deserve it.
 
richierich
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Re: Toronto-bound Porter Airlines passengers told to delete videos or face arrest

Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:03 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
flydude380 wrote:
....How would the general public like to be recorded? ...


Every airport has 100s if not 1000s of cameras.


That's not a true statement. I'm willing to bet small airports like HVN don't even have ten cameras. Even a midsize airport like, say, SAV, probably doesn't have "100s" of cameras.
None shall pass!!!!
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Toronto-bound Porter Airlines passengers told to delete videos or face arrest

Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:16 pm

tlecam wrote:
Thomaas wrote:
I’m surprised at many of the responses on this thread. I doubt many of you would happily have a camera pointed at your face to record every single one of your responses at work. Filming an employee is a form of intimidation and harassment and should not be tolerated.


This is hyperbole. No one was filming "every single one of [their] responses at work."

People did film what appears to be a poorly handled situation, by Porter. Porter did not want that situation being recorded because it was being poorly handled.

That aside - I did not realize that the Q400 came with a door that didn't work in certain types of weather, therefore causing a weather delay.

Seems strange to me, at least on the surface. Probably another reason why Porter didn't want any of the incident documented.


Except that QX had no door issues that I know of operating Q400s in Alaska in the Winter.
 
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tlecam
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Re: Toronto-bound Porter Airlines passengers told to delete videos or face arrest

Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:02 am

BoeingGuy wrote:
tlecam wrote:
Thomaas wrote:
I’m surprised at many of the responses on this thread. I doubt many of you would happily have a camera pointed at your face to record every single one of your responses at work. Filming an employee is a form of intimidation and harassment and should not be tolerated.


This is hyperbole. No one was filming "every single one of [their] responses at work."

People did film what appears to be a poorly handled situation, by Porter. Porter did not want that situation being recorded because it was being poorly handled.

That aside - I did not realize that the Q400 came with a door that didn't work in certain types of weather, therefore causing a weather delay.

Seems strange to me, at least on the surface. Probably another reason why Porter didn't want any of the incident documented.


Except that QX had no door issues that I know of operating Q400s in Alaska in the Winter.


Exactly! Either they didn't explain the reason for the delay well or they're using some very creative rationale to call it a weather delay.
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D L X
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Re: Toronto-bound Porter Airlines passengers told to delete videos or face arrest

Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:58 am

If you ask 10 Americans what freedom of speech means, you’re probably going to get nine wrong answers.


georgiaame wrote:
Pity for them they WEREN'T arrested. In America, we have this funny thing called "free speech". I know it isn't for everyone I know, but it works, and is recognized by all of our courts. They could have made a hell of a lot of money on this one, and would never have to fly Porter again in the future.


Huh? How is being told to stop recording crew on a private enterprise a free speech issue? Recording isn’t speech, and even if it were, companies can tell you you don’t have free speech there.
 
zippy
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Re: Toronto-bound Porter Airlines passengers told to delete videos or face arrest

Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:35 am

flydude380 wrote:
    dtw2hyd wrote:
    flydude380 wrote:
    ....How would the general public like to be recorded? ...


    Every airport has 100s if not 1000s of cameras.


    Sure, for your safety and security. Not so you can abuse an airline member of staff for whatever reason, then get thousands of 'likes' for it on social media!!


    lol what?

    From the article:

    Many customers faced with denials of compensation choose to record the company representatives’ statements for use in complaints or civil law suits.


    While Porter provided hotel accommodation and covered the cost of some meals, it’s refusing to pay additional compensation. The airline is citing weather as the cause of the flight delay and not mechanical reasons, which would necessitate cash payment.


    Video recording is absolutely the right thing to do to ensure you can recover your losses especially when the airline in question is lying. Additionally:

    “No, there is no law or policy that prohibits filming inside Logan Airport, except in secure areas and of security procedures,” said Kelly Smith, media relations manager
    for the Massachusetts Port Authority.


    “We do not have any policy that would prevent people from taking video at airports,” said Cicero.

    “Circumstances may differ on an aircraft if taking video has the potential to affect safety or the personal comfort of others on board.”
     
    zippy
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    Re: Toronto-bound Porter Airlines passengers told to delete videos or face arrest

    Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:36 am

    D L X wrote:
    Huh? How is being told to stop recording crew on a private enterprise a free speech issue? Recording isn’t speech, and even if it were, companies can tell you you don’t have free speech there.


    The threat wasn't that Porter was going to do something, but that Porter was acting as an agent of the government and threatening criminal consequences for recording.
     
    Maverick623
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    Re: Toronto-bound Porter Airlines passengers told to delete videos or face arrest

    Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:01 am

    D L X wrote:
    If you ask 10 Americans what freedom of speech means, you’re probably going to get nine wrong answers.


    georgiaame wrote:
    Pity for them they WEREN'T arrested. In America, we have this funny thing called "free speech". I know it isn't for everyone I know, but it works, and is recognized by all of our courts. They could have made a hell of a lot of money on this one, and would never have to fly Porter again in the future.


    Huh? How is being told to stop recording crew on a private enterprise a free speech issue? Recording isn’t speech, and even if it were, companies can tell you you don’t have free speech there.


    In the US, even in the most private of "public" areas, the most any person or organization can do is kick the recorder out. They cannot call for an arrest, or even force people to delete images or video. The worst thing that even the police could do is give a trespass warning, an official caution that should the person return to the premisis they could be arrested.
    "PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
     
    Dominion301
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    Re: Toronto-bound Porter Airlines passengers told to delete videos or face arrest

    Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:08 am

    awschucks77 wrote:
    @Dominion301 -- AC was twice the price.


    With their nonstop monopoly on the route I’m not surprised. Sometimes it is worth it though to pay more.

    Having said that I’ve had nothing but great experiences on PD. I’d recommend giving them a second chance as what you experienced is not the norm with Porter.
     
    hinckley
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    Re: Toronto-bound Porter Airlines passengers told to delete videos or face arrest

    Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:58 am

    D L X wrote:
    Huh? How is being told to stop recording crew on a private enterprise a free speech issue? Recording isn’t speech, and even if it were, companies can tell you you don’t have free speech there.


    Ya, recording actually is considered a First Amendment/free speech right. It came down in cases when police started to try to stop people from recording police activity. It's a pretty well established legal principal now. As far as the venue, constitutional rights - or the general law for that matter - do not end inside a "company". You can't legally commit murder inside an airport, right? Lastly, pilots have been given very broad legal rights to regulate activity within an airplane in the name of safety. But these actions took place in the airport terminal.
     
    alasizon
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    Re: Toronto-bound Porter Airlines passengers told to delete videos or face arrest

    Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:10 am

    rajincajun01 wrote:
    m007j wrote:
    Amen.
    Few people will pull out a recording device unprovoked. And if you're a public facing employee who has put them in that position, it's no one's fault but yours. There plenty of ways to de-escalate that, but people get a badge, get to sit behind a desk, and think they're God almighty. It should serve as a reality check to get a camera in your face that you're just like the rest of us.


    You say “few people”, which shows there are people that are just looking for confrontation. You go on to argue that it’s the employees fault when that happens. THAT is the exact argument that entitles people to shove a camera in people’s face unprovoked, looking for compensation or fame. Just because someone has a badge doesn’t make them deserving of that treatment, or in need of a “reality check”.


    I've had a camera shoved in my face more times than I'd care to admit, all by passengers who didn't like their flight was delayed or cancelled (majority of which were due to factors out of the airline's control). Many passengers try to incite a reaction out of those they are filming just so they can point out how bad the big bad airline really is. I have no problem with the people who wish to record the conversation so they "have a record of it". The ones I have an issue with are those that try to incite a reaction and those who physically make contact with my face with their cellphone.
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    Super80Fan
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    Re: Toronto-bound Porter Airlines passengers told to delete videos or face arrest

    Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:44 am

    D L X wrote:
    If you ask 10 Americans what freedom of speech means, you’re probably going to get nine wrong answers.


    georgiaame wrote:
    Pity for them they WEREN'T arrested. In America, we have this funny thing called "free speech". I know it isn't for everyone I know, but it works, and is recognized by all of our courts. They could have made a hell of a lot of money on this one, and would never have to fly Porter again in the future.


    Huh? How is being told to stop recording crew on a private enterprise a free speech issue? Recording isn’t speech, and even if it were, companies can tell you you don’t have free speech there.


    What an ignorant statement. Recording has already established to be free speech, you're just late to the party. Furthermore, private companies can tell you to stop recording/no free speech on THEIR property. They can't force you to stop it on PUBLIC property.

    If this took place on the aircraft, Porter would well be within their right to remove the individuals from the aircraft or tell them to stop. However this took place in the airport, where the operator/owner, Massport, allows photography as long as it doesn't include secure off limits areas or interfere with the operation of the airport. Simply pointing your camera at a gate agent doesn't constitute any of that, so it is well within everyone's first amendment right to do so, and the airline employees just need to suck it up.
    RIP McDonnell Douglas
    RIP US Airways
     
    D L X
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    Re: Toronto-bound Porter Airlines passengers told to delete videos or face arrest

    Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:10 am

    zippy wrote:
    D L X wrote:
    Huh? How is being told to stop recording crew on a private enterprise a free speech issue? Recording isn’t speech, and even if it were, companies can tell you you don’t have free speech there.


    The threat wasn't that Porter was going to do something, but that Porter was acting as an agent of the government and threatening criminal consequences for recording.

    Yes, but it’s not porter pressing any charges for speech, but rather trespassing. You come into my house, you follow my rules, or I can show you the door. Add to that the (in my opinion stupid) rules that allow Airlines to order arrests, and there ya go.

    But no free speech issue here.
     
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    Super80Fan
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    Re: Toronto-bound Porter Airlines passengers told to delete videos or face arrest

    Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:24 am

    D L X wrote:
    zippy wrote:
    D L X wrote:
    Huh? How is being told to stop recording crew on a private enterprise a free speech issue? Recording isn’t speech, and even if it were, companies can tell you you don’t have free speech there.


    The threat wasn't that Porter was going to do something, but that Porter was acting as an agent of the government and threatening criminal consequences for recording.

    Yes, but it’s not porter pressing any charges for speech, but rather trespassing. You come into my house, you follow my rules, or I can show you the door. Add to that the (in my opinion stupid) rules that allow Airlines to order arrests, and there ya go.

    But no free speech issue here.


    Again, complete ignorance of the law. If this happened on a Porter aircraft, they could absolutely get the individuals trespassed. They do not own the airport or gate area, so they cannot get those individuals trespassed.
    RIP McDonnell Douglas
    RIP US Airways
     
    D L X
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    Re: Toronto-bound Porter Airlines passengers told to delete videos or face arrest

    Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:26 am

    hinckley wrote:
    D L X wrote:
    Huh? How is being told to stop recording crew on a private enterprise a free speech issue? Recording isn’t speech, and even if it were, companies can tell you you don’t have free speech there.


    Ya, recording actually is considered a First Amendment/free speech right. It came down in cases when police started to try to stop people from recording police activity. It's a pretty well established legal principal now. As far as the venue, constitutional rights - or the general law for that matter - do not end inside a "company". You can't legally commit murder inside an airport, right? Lastly, pilots have been given very broad legal rights to regulate activity within an airplane in the name of safety. But these actions took place in the airport terminal.

    Well established for police, yes. But not for private parties. That can be trespass and in many states, it is expressly illegal to record someone (in audio) without their permission. These laws stand despite the first amendment.
    Remember, the first amendment protects ::expression::. Where is the expression when you are recording?

    I will correct one thing though: I misunderstood that this was at the gate area. But I don’t think that changes much legally.
     
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    Re: Toronto-bound Porter Airlines passengers told to delete videos or face arrest

    Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:27 am

    Super80Fan wrote:
    D L X wrote:
    zippy wrote:

    The threat wasn't that Porter was going to do something, but that Porter was acting as an agent of the government and threatening criminal consequences for recording.

    Yes, but it’s not porter pressing any charges for speech, but rather trespassing. You come into my house, you follow my rules, or I can show you the door. Add to that the (in my opinion stupid) rules that allow Airlines to order arrests, and there ya go.

    But no free speech issue here.


    Again, complete ignorance of the law. If this happened on a Porter aircraft, they could absolutely get the individuals trespassed. They do not own the airport or gate area, so they cannot get those individuals trespassed.

    Educate me. Tell me a case which said a person had a first amendment right to record another person.
     
    zippy
    Posts: 157
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    Re: Toronto-bound Porter Airlines passengers told to delete videos or face arrest

    Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:39 am

    D L X wrote:
    Super80Fan wrote:
    D L X wrote:
    Yes, but it’s not porter pressing any charges for speech, but rather trespassing. You come into my house, you follow my rules, or I can show you the door. Add to that the (in my opinion stupid) rules that allow Airlines to order arrests, and there ya go.

    But no free speech issue here.


    Again, complete ignorance of the law. If this happened on a Porter aircraft, they could absolutely get the individuals trespassed. They do not own the airport or gate area, so they cannot get those individuals trespassed.

    Educate me. Tell me a case which said a person had a first amendment right to record another person.


    Glik v. Cunniffe
     
    slcdeltarumd11
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    Re: Toronto-bound Porter Airlines passengers told to delete videos or face arrest

    Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:42 am

    edmountain wrote:
    https://globalnews.ca/news/3953290/porter-airlines-video-boston-toronto/

    Frustrated by disorganization, some passengers pulled out their phones and began video recording Porter staff delivering information. It was then they were confronted with an unusual demand.

    “At that point, the personnel came from behind the desk and started threatening us to call the police if we don’t delete the videos off of our phones and show evidence that it’s gone from our trash bin,” said Wegler.


    Yet another example of spending more effort trying to control the message rather than getting the job done. Porter at least apologized later for the behaviour of their misguided employee.


    I totally agree here. The airlines have to stop blaming EVERYTHING on the weather too. Porter had lots of ways to solve the problem, they just chose the weather to try to sneak out. So lame.
     
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    Super80Fan
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    Re: Toronto-bound Porter Airlines passengers told to delete videos or face arrest

    Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:01 am

    zippy wrote:
    D L X wrote:
    Super80Fan wrote:

    Again, complete ignorance of the law. If this happened on a Porter aircraft, they could absolutely get the individuals trespassed. They do not own the airport or gate area, so they cannot get those individuals trespassed.

    Educate me. Tell me a case which said a person had a first amendment right to record another person.


    Glik v. Cunniffe


    What zippy said. There are also many other cases at a local and federal level where judges consistently rule that recording on public property is a first amendment protected activity. I am not going to list all of them here, you can look it up yourself. There's a reason why Massport sided with the people with cameras.
    RIP McDonnell Douglas
    RIP US Airways
     
    vfw614
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    Re: Toronto-bound Porter Airlines passengers told to delete videos or face arrest

    Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:53 am

    Folks, again: Filming is one thing. A wholly different matter is passing the result of the filming to, say, a newspaper, tv station etc. so that the tape is being used for commercial purposes. The cases we discuss only come up because someone does not simply film something and keeps the file on his computer, but because he passes it on to someone who uses it commercially. And in my book, this effects the right of property of the filmed individual. And that is also the case why those companies who respect the right of property blur out faces.
     
    mjoelnir
    Posts: 9300
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    Re: Toronto-bound Porter Airlines passengers told to delete videos or face arrest

    Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:38 am

    vfw614 wrote:
    Folks, again: Filming is one thing. A wholly different matter is passing the result of the filming to, say, a newspaper, tv station etc. so that the tape is being used for commercial purposes. The cases we discuss only come up because someone does not simply film something and keeps the file on his computer, but because he passes it on to someone who uses it commercially. And in my book, this effects the right of property of the filmed individual. And that is also the case why those companies who respect the right of property blur out faces.


    Get it through your heads, filming in a public place is not banned. Filming airline staff in a public place is not banned. It does not matter a bit if you do not like it. An airport is a public place. It could be banned in places like North Korea or Saudi Arabia and so on.
    Trying to ban a passenger to film you when you are declaring the bad news in regards to some delay in a public place, is breaking the rules. The passenger filming is aloud to make a record of your declaration. Airlines have been lying often enough to passengers for the passengers to be distrustful. If you call the police or security on the filming or tapping passengers. it should result in security or police telling you that you are not allowed to ban it.
    If the passenger filming passes it on to a newspaper or puts it on youtube, you can try to sue him or her.
     
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    SomebodyInTLS
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    Re: Toronto-bound Porter Airlines passengers told to delete videos or face arrest

    Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:02 pm

    scbriml wrote:
    Thomaas wrote:
    I’m surprised at many of the responses on this thread. I doubt many of you would happily have a camera pointed at your face to record every single one of your responses at work. Filming an employee is a form of intimidation and harassment and should not be tolerated.


    With so many places, shops and businesses littered with CCTV, many people are "under surveillance" all day at work.


    I can see two right now from where I'm sitting.

    I always smile for the camera when passing the little black bubble on the ceiling outside the lav... :)
    "As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
     
    mjoelnir
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    Re: Toronto-bound Porter Airlines passengers told to delete videos or face arrest

    Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:06 pm

    D L X wrote:
    Super80Fan wrote:
    D L X wrote:
    Yes, but it’s not porter pressing any charges for speech, but rather trespassing. You come into my house, you follow my rules, or I can show you the door. Add to that the (in my opinion stupid) rules that allow Airlines to order arrests, and there ya go.

    But no free speech issue here.


    Again, complete ignorance of the law. If this happened on a Porter aircraft, they could absolutely get the individuals trespassed. They do not own the airport or gate area, so they cannot get those individuals trespassed.

    Educate me. Tell me a case which said a person had a first amendment right to record another person.


    Why should anybody need to educate you? Go on the internet and check up on it. You will also see that the police tried, or tries to stop folk from filming them, every time that goes to court it is again affirmed that it is aloud to film in public places. There is no special law exempting airline staff from being filmed.
     
    m007j
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    Re: Toronto-bound Porter Airlines passengers told to delete videos or face arrest

    Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:10 pm

    rajincajun01 wrote:
    m007j wrote:
    Amen.
    Few people will pull out a recording device unprovoked. And if you're a public facing employee who has put them in that position, it's no one's fault but yours. There plenty of ways to de-escalate that, but people get a badge, get to sit behind a desk, and think they're God almighty. It should serve as a reality check to get a camera in your face that you're just like the rest of us.


    You say “few people”, which shows there are people that are just looking for confrontation. You go on to argue that it’s the employees fault when that happens. THAT is the exact argument that entitles people to shove a camera in people’s face unprovoked, looking for compensation or fame. Just because someone has a badge doesn’t make them deserving of that treatment, or in need of a “reality check”.


    You're exactly right, no one deserves that treatment. But again, as in this case, there was a series of events that led to the customer having to pull out their phone and record which probably could have been handled better. I work for the one of the world's most popular museums; my job includes bring filmed almost all the time because just about every visitor has 3 cameras. Part of my job also requires me to help throw people out as needed, and we toss a lot of people. Why doesn't that make the news? Because we are taught from day one how to de-escalate, and how to frame the situation positively. People will happily respect the badge and the uniform if you wield your power rationally. I understand that human nature would want you to escalate with your customer, but you are literally being paid to not do that.

    alasizon wrote:
    The ones I have an issue with are those that try to incite a reaction and those who physically make contact with my face with their cellphone.

    Hm, that is terrible if you had to encounter that. If they really wanted a picture of my nose hair I'd just give them a hair.
     
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    SomebodyInTLS
    Posts: 1819
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    Re: Toronto-bound Porter Airlines passengers told to delete videos or face arrest

    Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:13 pm

    richierich wrote:
    dtw2hyd wrote:
    flydude380 wrote:
    ....How would the general public like to be recorded? ...


    Every airport has 100s if not 1000s of cameras.


    That's not a true statement. I'm willing to bet small airports like HVN don't even have ten cameras. Even a midsize airport like, say, SAV, probably doesn't have "100s" of cameras.


    That's only your opinion (and I think you're incorrect for anything but the tiniest airfields) so it is wrong for you to say it's "not a true statement".

    If I think about my local (small) airport, I probably pass twenty cameras just driving onto the complex and parking the car... two of those are registering the license plate.
    Last edited by SomebodyInTLS on Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
    "As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
     
    planecane
    Posts: 1425
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    Re: Toronto-bound Porter Airlines passengers told to delete videos or face arrest

    Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:24 pm

    Aptivaboy wrote:
    I was under the impression that If you tell someone thats recording you to stop and that you do not authorize your image in their pictures/videos they have to comply? Why wouldnt they blur out people on those hidden cams TV shows.


    It depends upon where the taping is being done. Short answer, if you're in a place deemed to be public or even semi-public, taping is usually permitted because there is no assumed privacy there. If you've ever seen those drunks being removed from plane videos, some of them start telling the other pax that they can't tape them. Um, wrong. In a semi-public place like a metal tube filled with a couple hundred folks, there is no assumed right to privacy. I would imagine it would be the same in an airport terminal. In a private setting like a closed office, you could argue the opposite since in a very private space like that there is an assumed right to privacy, and there are various state laws to that effect around the country.

    All of this applies to the USA, of course. Other countries have different laws.


    You just can't use somebody's image for commercial purposes without their consent. Somehow news (which is a business) is exempted and doesn't have to blur people out in the background of reports but reality TV shows do.
     
    D L X
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    Re: Toronto-bound Porter Airlines passengers told to delete videos or face arrest

    Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:31 pm

    Super80Fan wrote:
    zippy wrote:
    D L X wrote:
    Educate me. Tell me a case which said a person had a first amendment right to record another person.


    Glik v. Cunniffe


    What zippy said. There are also many other cases at a local and federal level where judges consistently rule that recording on public property is a first amendment protected activity. I am not going to list all of them here, you can look it up yourself. There's a reason why Massport sided with the people with cameras.

    Glik v. Cunnife is still about public officials. My question was about videotaping private actors.

    It’s not my argument that courts have said you can—that’s your argument, so point me to a case. I’m ready to believe you, but you have to put up the evidence. All the cases I’ve seen so far only give that right pertaining to videotaping public officials.

    This shouldn’t be surprising. Surely you are aware of the many laws in many states prohibiting recording people without their permission. It’s how Linda Tripp ended up indicted.
     
    D L X
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    Re: Toronto-bound Porter Airlines passengers told to delete videos or face arrest

    Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:35 pm

    mjoelnir wrote:

    Why should anybody need to educate you? Go on the internet and check up on it. You will also see that the police tried, or tries to stop folk from filming them, every time that goes to court it is again affirmed that it is aloud to film in public places. There is no special law exempting airline staff from being filmed.

    Because they claimed something existed counter to my own research without offering proof. It’s pretty simple.

    Again, airline employees are not police or other PUBLIC officials. Show me a case that shows you have a first amendment right to record PRIVATE actors, and I’ll believe you.

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