Kenya Airways is going to announce its first route to the US tomorrow according to the article below:

National carrier Kenya Airways (KQ) plans to start marketing direct flights to the United States this week. The airline will begin selling tickets on the new route tomorrow, whereby travellers will have an opportunity to pre-book the inaugural and subsequent flights slated for later in the year.
Read more at: https://www.standardmedia.co.ke/busines ... us-flights

https://www.standardmedia.co.ke/busines ... us-flights

They want to lose even more money?

JFK or ATL. They applied for JFK in March so I would almost certainly say that its going to be JFK.

jubguy3 wrote:

JFK or ATL. They applied for JFK in March so I would almost certainly say that its going to be JFK.

Yeah, that's what I was about to say. I personally would prefer ATL, but I understand why they would add JFK instead. Either way, glad to hear this as a DL FF, I have to travel to NBO at least 1 once a year so a n/s from the US is ideal for me.

Definitely MSP. I heard from someone in 2008 that they were looking at NBO-CDG-MSP.

But seriously, I'll guess JFK.

Midwestindy wrote:

jubguy3 wrote:

JFK or ATL. They applied for JFK in March so I would almost certainly say that its going to be JFK.

Yeah, that's what I was about to say. I personally would prefer ATL, but I understand why they would add JFK instead. Either way, glad to hear this as a DL FF, I have to travel to NBO at least 1 once a year so a n/s from the US is ideal for me.

With the new IND-CDG I would much rather clear customs in Paris than JFK if I were you, and fly Air France to Nairobi. I fly to Accra occasionally for a phlebotomy / reference laboratory exchange program and I always fly through Amsterdam to clear customs in Salt Lake City instead of New York. Clearing customs in SLC or IND is much easier than say, LAX or JFK. And I would prefer to fly on Kenya Airways as little as possible... Air France out of Paris is probably much more comfortable than Kenyan. I wouldn't want to fly on KQ all the way from New York to Nairobi. Yes to Ethiopian, but that's an extra stop and it's Star Alliance.

Kenya Airways? To the US?

JFK are my bets.

Where is the cash coming from?

Saludos,
Alex

I guess they need to burn more cash on prestige routes.

jubguy3 wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

jubguy3 wrote:

JFK or ATL. They applied for JFK in March so I would almost certainly say that its going to be JFK.

Yeah, that's what I was about to say. I personally would prefer ATL, but I understand why they would add JFK instead. Either way, glad to hear this as a DL FF, I have to travel to NBO at least 1 once a year so a n/s from the US is ideal for me.

With the new IND-CDG I would much rather clear customs in Paris than JFK if I were you, and fly Air France to Nairobi. I fly to Accra occasionally for a phlebotomy / reference laboratory exchange program and I always fly through Amsterdam to clear customs in Salt Lake City instead of New York. Clearing customs in SLC or IND is much easier than say, LAX or JFK. And I would prefer to fly on Kenya Airways as little as possible... Air France out of Paris is probably much more comfortable than Kenyan. I wouldn't want to fly on KQ all the way from New York to Nairobi. Yes to Ethiopian, but that's an extra stop and it's Star Alliance.

Yeah that's why I would prefer ATL, I fly the DL IND-ATL-LOS flight usually a couple times a year and I used to fly IND-ATL-ABV when it was around, so obviously I will usually take connecting in ATL over JFK almost any day. (I have global entry clearing customs isn't that much of a hassle)

I travel to CMN a decent amount, so the IND-CDG flight will work well for connections through CDG. But for say IND-NBO, I think connecting in JFK makes more sense considering IND-JFK will be 3x daily now, and the times on the IND-CDG-IND flight don't work out to fly AF on the CDG-NBO-CDG route so I would have to fly KQ anyway.

But I honestly don't mind KQ that much, I flew a couple times on their 737s in early 2017 and late 2016, and I remember them being decent flights (although I haven't been on their 787).

Glad to see KQ is expanding into the US though!

Must be a cruel joke.

An airline that was on verge on bankruptcy, risk of its airplanes being repossessed embarks on a costly long-haul adventure to a far away continent never served before

Is this the big new MCI announcement?

Midwestindy wrote:

jubguy3 wrote:

JFK or ATL. They applied for JFK in March so I would almost certainly say that its going to be JFK.

Yeah, that's what I was about to say. I personally would prefer ATL, but I understand why they would add JFK instead. Either way, glad to hear this as a DL FF, I have to travel to NBO at least 1 once a year so a n/s from the US is ideal for me.

The article states a direct flight to the US, leaving it wide open for an en-route stop, if KQ tries this n/s I bet they will be taking payload hits, which makes the comments about trade in the article all but moot.

According to this:
- Begins October 2018
- Service to JFK
- Boeing 787-8 with 234 seats

NBO JFK 2230 0600
JFK NBO 1330 1030

http://bankelele.co.ke/2017/02/kenya-us ... ights.html

I see from the last post we have some plausible times but I don’t see how this can work, 7,360 miles in still air, then factor in headwinds and a mile high runway at Nairobi. As a tag-on from a west African port that lacks transatlantic service maybe, but nonstop is going to be really tough.

Probably makes sense to reactivate their B777-200 for the route

flyfresno wrote:

Is this the big new MCI announcement?

That was Icelandair if your not probably aware yet!

af773atmsp wrote:

Definitely MSP. I heard from someone in 2008 that they were looking at NBO-CDG-MSP.

But seriously, I'll guess JFK.

SERIOUSLY but WHY MSP?

Surely having been told that 'false' information way back in '2008' wouldn't you have disputed it immediately!

That person you 'heard' it from in 2008 is in an institution now if you haven't 'heard'!

Anywho, congrats to Kenya Airways and JFK

JFK would be pretty obvious. Just as on TPAC routes it is usually SFO or LAX.

KQ will begin daily service to JFK from 30 October

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... -oct-2018/

Daylight flight. Sweet for photographers!

mercure1 wrote:

Must be a cruel joke.

An airline that was on verge on bankruptcy, risk of its airplanes being repossessed embarks on a costly long-haul adventure to a far away continent never served before

KQ has never served the U.S. before?

I don't agree with this planning of making the route a daily nonstop. To me, it would have made more sense to do this in a way that maximizes connections, as a fifth-freedom extension taking advantage of existing open skies agreements. Either it should have been via LOS, which would replace DL's own service to LOS from JFK, or via AMS, where one takes over one of the daily frequencies between AMS and JFK, likely DL46/7 or DL48/9. As a non-stop, 4 times weekly at most would suffice. (I'm surprised that SA runs JNB-JFK daily as a ULH nonstop.)

As for the equipment, at 6395 nmi, this would pass BNE-YVR as the longest Boeing 787-8 route in the world and is at the edge of its range.

At least other routes that seem to be outliers make sense (i.e., GYD-JFK; exists as an alternative to LY as GYD to TLV is now on a wide-body on select dates).

Cunard wrote:

flyfresno wrote:

Is this the big new MCI announcement?

That was Icelandair if your not probably aware yet!

Yeah it was a joke...I would have been surprised at any US city other than NY...

I’m very excited for this route! Unfortunately I dit suspect this will do too well for the Airline and may be short lived.
Timing for the flights is pretty good!

aemoreira1981 wrote:

As for the equipment, at 6395 nmi, this would pass BNE-YVR as the longest Boeing 787-8 route in the world and is at the edge of its range.

I believe the longest B788 flight as PVG-MEX, at 6,938 nmi. Noted that this is 1-way, as the reverse stops in TIJ.

jubguy3 wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

jubguy3 wrote:

JFK or ATL. They applied for JFK in March so I would almost certainly say that its going to be JFK.

Yeah, that's what I was about to say. I personally would prefer ATL, but I understand why they would add JFK instead. Either way, glad to hear this as a DL FF, I have to travel to NBO at least 1 once a year so a n/s from the US is ideal for me.

With the new IND-CDG I would much rather clear customs in Paris than JFK if I were you, and fly Air France to Nairobi. I fly to Accra occasionally for a phlebotomy / reference laboratory exchange program and I always fly through Amsterdam to clear customs in Salt Lake City instead of New York. Clearing customs in SLC or IND is much easier than say, LAX or JFK. And I would prefer to fly on Kenya Airways as little as possible... Air France out of Paris is probably much more comfortable than Kenyan. I wouldn't want to fly on KQ all the way from New York to Nairobi. Yes to Ethiopian, but that's an extra stop and it's Star Alliance.

I've flown KQ on NBO-AMS, and their service was on par with KL, AF, etc. I also have flown ET on DUB-LAX and I have to say KQ's service was better. KQ might not be run very well from a business perspective, but their service is just fine, and definitely better than the US3.

'902

MileHFL400 wrote:

Probably makes sense to reactivate their B777-200 for the route

That planes are gone many years ago and I don't even think they can make the trip, the B77W that KQ operate for few months could have been a better option, but the B77W was way too much plane for KQ and the lease price was killing KQ, so they left long time ago also and now all they have are B787.

I don't think the timings are the best, going NBO-JFK is good because KQ has a big bank at that time, around 2200-2300LT, but the morning would have been much better landing at NBO around 6 am to connect with 8-9 am bank of African departures. However looking at the timings it looks like KQ-DL are more after the traffic connecting at JFK than in NBO.
I think DL was a better option for the route, they could have adjusted the scheducle to improve connectivity in both ends better, with the flexibility to rotate the plane at JFK, something like JFK departure around 2000-2100 LT to land in NBO at 1900-2000 (+1) and depart back with the same schedule, 2335-0625 (+1), with A350, 32-48-226.

234 seat B788 with only 30 business and 204 economy, KQ will need to have very strong loads to make it work, but I still think it will be very difficult.

Excellent news for Kenyans and Kenya Airways and I do agree with TWA902fly's comment!
If you want to discover KQ's nice product you can read this recent TR posted:

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1382395

aemoreira1981 wrote:

I don't agree with this planning of making the route a daily nonstop. To me, it would have made more sense to do this in a way that maximizes connections, as a fifth-freedom extension taking advantage of existing open skies agreements. Either it should have been via LOS, which would replace DL's own service to LOS from JFK, or via AMS, where one takes over one of the daily frequencies between AMS and JFK, likely DL46/7 or DL48/9. As a non-stop, 4 times weekly at most would suffice. (I'm surprised that SA runs JNB-JFK daily as a ULH nonstop.)

And which countries would this 5th freedom be available from? Certainly not Nigeria.

Would a JV from a large EU hub be possible? Get all those connections? This is a long flight.

Sidenote, why aren't they choosing DTW? Rip off.

They have a joint venture on EU-NBO I believe. The AMS flights are on neutral metal i believe.

airzona11 wrote:

Would a JV from a large EU hub be possible? Get all those connections? This is a long flight.

They'd need open skies agreement with the EU for a JV. They would de facto then join the DL-AF-KL JV. But how would this routing improve on their codeshares with KL, AF and DL?

aemoreira1981 wrote:

I don't agree with this planning of making the route a daily nonstop. To me, it would have made more sense to do this in a way that maximizes connections, as a fifth-freedom extension taking advantage of existing open skies agreements. Either it should have been via LOS, which would replace DL's own service to LOS from JFK, or via AMS, where one takes over one of the daily frequencies between AMS and JFK, likely DL46/7 or DL48/9. As a non-stop, 4 times weekly at most would suffice. (I'm surprised that SA runs JNB-JFK daily as a ULH nonstop.)

As for the equipment, at 6395 nmi, this would pass BNE-YVR as the longest Boeing 787-8 route in the world and is at the edge of its range.

At least other routes that seem to be outliers make sense (i.e., GYD-JFK; exists as an alternative to LY as GYD to TLV is now on a wide-body on select dates).

I also think it is too ambitious to go with a daily nonstop out of NBO. To me, it's the airline or its government trying to make a big splash while they should be focusing on what operations are not working well for them today. A 3-4x per week start would have been prudent, but time will tell of course.

In terms of your options to replace DL's LOS flight, or to fly via AMS, you are assuming that DL and KL are willing to let KQ go with it. LOS is a big money maker for DL, and KL has long kept KQ a regional partner and will not cede such coveted route. Furthermore, the JV that DL/KL have will not be receptive to KQ's ambitions. I read an article last night that alluded to the fact that DL is not [yet] placing its code on KQ's new service because of the JVs that are in place.

This might be the first big destination that KQ is going daily on, and there's a lot it's betting. Even to CDG, KQ started out gradually and had the support of AF as a feeder.

The beauty of this of course is that we will see competition to East Africa, and the mainstays such as TK, AF, KL, BA, AF, EK and ET will react with sales and possibly better offerings. One might ask if Ethiopian will look at going nonstop to IAD or even EWR now that there's direct competition.

Anyone notice how long the aircraft sits idle at JFK for?

berari wrote:

One might ask if Ethiopian will look at going nonstop to IAD or even EWR now that there's direct competition.

I feel that this is why KQ announced JFK. In the last few years, they have lost a lot of market share for eastern Africa traffic to ET, and it was only a matter of time before ET went into JFK on their own. This might make ET think twice about expanding there but I doubt it.

berari wrote:

One might ask if Ethiopian will look at going nonstop to IAD or even EWR now that there's direct competition.

If they could they would, but they can't. The 787 can't fly a route that long out of ADD without a mearningly payload penalty. In fact I don't believe any of their aircraft including the 77L can do it.

MileHFL400 wrote:

Anyone notice how long the aircraft sits idle at JFK for?

See Reply #14.

airbazar wrote:

berari wrote:

One might ask if Ethiopian will look at going nonstop to IAD or even EWR now that there's direct competition.

If they could they would, but they can't. The 787 can't fly a route that long out of ADD without a mearningly payload penalty.

I figured that NBO-JFK could not be done without a weight penalty or intermediate stop. I realize it wont be a day departure so not as hot but definitely still high although no as bad as ADD. They're going to need a high premium load especially if they plan to price competitively with ET/EK/QR/TK and if they are taking a weight penalty it will have to come from Y or cargo (not that I think cargo is a huge factor here). The economics of this whole thing just don't make sense to me especially for an airline that was about to go under and recently cancelled routes.

airzona11 wrote:

Would a JV from a large EU hub be possible? Get all those connections? This is a long flight.

Sidenote, why aren't they choosing DTW? Rip off.

Too long for the B788. This would be the longest flight on one as it is.

This is gonna be a long route for sure. I find it kind of weird how ET flies to YYZ and IAD via DUB, but the return flight is direct because YYZ and IAD are not high altitude airports. A non-stop NBO-JFK will still have to deal with the high altitude on takeoff and there will be weight limits for sure. The 787 is an very capable aircraft, but using it above sea level will mean weight limits will come into play much more. Why does ET need a stopover on the way to YYZ and IAD while KQ is using an 788 direct both ways?

ULH routes are no doubt very expensive to operate. Hopefully it works out and it's profitable at the same time.

NichCage wrote:

Why does ET need a stopover on the way to YYZ and IAD while KQ is using an 788 direct both ways?

ET is not willing to take the payload restrictions and ADD is much higher than NBO. NBO is 5292 ft while ADD is 7657 ft.

KQ will have payload restrictions but no where near as bad as ET would need to operate ADD-NA nonstop.

Regardless, I suspect this route is going to be a major money loser for KQ but I wish them the best...

I suspect it's only a matter of time before the route gets cut, if it ever takes off....

Surely a good way of burning money.

MileHFL400 wrote:

Anyone notice how long the aircraft sits idle at JFK for?

6 hours is nothing for a flight this long. Airlines will park the aircraft for 16+ hours if it makes the timing better.

Michael

I hope they do better than all the armchair CEOs would suggest. There are many airlines that are losing money, AF, AZ, EY, VA, SQ, CX. I'm sure most of you wouldn't be so critical of those airlines starting routes to new markets, Sometimes an airline has to break away from what it has been doing to turn things around - Let's hope that's what JFK is for KQ. Financials aside, as an airline, they have a competitive product and if they can work through any potential payload issues hopefully it can help the KQ cause.

This will unfortunately rapidly lead to higher losses overall for KQ.

There is no way this flight can fly nonstop year round with a full payload. They should have flown it via ACC in order to allow convenient two way connections via ACC to ROB + FNA hence diversifying their passenger portfolio base.

This must have been discussed in one form or another, dozens of time, with members frantically stabbing at one point or another about this route for years. Here we are at an official announcement & now it's getting negativity? Oh well, just an observation, I thought if this ever happened (which I'm a bit skeptical still) there would be more interested support.

The last few years have not been great for Kenya Airways and now they want to fly 15 hours nonstop daily to New York with a 787-8 ? I applaud the ambition, this sounds like a financial disaster waiting to happen. KA should start 3 times weekly and build up the route as demand expands. The other question is what has KA been doing with its fleet that all of a sudden it has two 787 "available" to fly to JFK.

KA sold 25% of itself years ago to KLM (before merging with AF), now AF/KLM and Delta with are in Skyteam and have a huge JV. Wouldn't KA be better flying to CDG, LHR and AMS for its traffic to the USA ?

af773atmsp wrote:

mercure1 wrote:

Must be a cruel joke.

An airline that was on verge on bankruptcy, risk of its airplanes being repossessed embarks on a costly long-haul adventure to a far away continent never served before

KQ has never served the U.S. before?

Up until last year Kenya was FAA Category 2. They could not operate to the United States.

https://www.faa.gov/news/press_releases ... wsId=21454

Now that Kenya meets FAA and ICAO safety standards, they can start service. Maybe I am wrong, but they might have a chance on this route. It might be for prestige or it might actually have a legitimate market that is untapped since airlines couldn’t operate the route before.

jfk777 wrote:

The last few years have not been great for Kenya Airways and now they want to fly 15 hours nonstop daily to New York with a 787-8 ? I applaud the ambition, this sounds like a financial disaster waiting to happen. KA should start 3 times weekly and build up the route as demand expands. The other question is what has KA been doing with its fleet that all of a sudden it has two 787 "available" to fly to JFK.

KA sold 25% of itself years ago to KLM (before merging with AF), now AF/KLM and Delta with are in Skyteam and have a huge JV. Wouldn't KA be better flying to CDG, LHR and AMS for its traffic to the USA ?

KQ already flie to LHR, AMS, and CDG.

Clearly the airline, and/or the Kenyan government, see a benefit in redeploying capacity to the JFK route. I’m pretty sure they have visibility of demand and yields for the traffic flowed over Europe, so it’s not like they’re making a random decision.

Delta had plans to fly to NBO. I’m sure if they were actually starting service it’d be hailed as a brilliant decision.