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Super80Fan
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Re: B6 Worst Airline in the USA?

Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:34 pm

backseatdriver wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
Well we all know that the WSJ is fake news, so take anything they say with a grain of salt.


The WSJ is the preeminent news source in the country, perhaps to the chagrin of only those who posses a strong distaste for truth in reporting.

The article informs the reader exactly what the metrics are for this study. Other studies that factor in cabin service, amenities, etc. are available if you want to see those. Just take it at face value.


Without going far off topic, the WSJ is owned by the biggest fake news provider in the country, News Corp. I'll change my tune if this was a New York Times or Washington Post article.

Anyway, WSJ's measurement here is seriously flawed, one-sided, and ill thought out. I can't believe they produced this garbage. All the data involved in airline operations needs to be collected, analyzed, and put out there for the public to decide. As always in this country, the sheep are eating it up while those of us with free thought left can see through this.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
 
santi319
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Re: B6 Worst Airline in the USA?

Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:36 pm

Well most people in the world just wanna get there safely and on time from point A to point B.

NK was #1 ontime in the US in the months of November and October and top 3 during December. It was also ranked the safest airline in North America so theres that.

The unlimited "free" snacks and "free" everything is mainly an airliners.net thing
 
flymia
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Re: B6 Worst Airline in the USA?

Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:39 pm

This has to do with having large operations out of JFK and BOS. Even FLL is not an easy airport for ATC and weather delays too.

From a passenger prospective, JetBlue IMO is fantastic. I hope they don't change. No economy "saver" bogus fares, you get to pick your seat as you wish, more legroom than anyone else, actual PTV at every seat, decent snacks and drinks.

I used to fly AA pretty often. I have 3 trips in the next 3 months booked and 3 more coming up booked and not-booked but planned. In all likelihood I will be flying B6 on 5 of the 6, and already booked on B6 for 3 of them. They are almost always cheaper than AA or other airlines other than NK. So I get more legroom, better IFE, seat selection, a carry on bag, actual decent snack for less money than AA "economy saver".

B6 is great from a passenger comfort prospective from my experience. I am just afraid as the others continue to get worse and worse that B6 will follow suit.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
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Polot
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Re: B6 Worst Airline in the USA?

Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:39 pm

Super80Fan wrote:
Anyway, WSJ's measurement here is seriously flawed, one-sided, and ill thought out. I can't believe they produced this garbage. All the data involved in airline operations needs to be collected, analyzed, and put out there for the public to decide. As always in this country, the sheep are eating it up while those of us with free thought left can see through this.

Just out of curiosity how is the data flawed, one-sided, and ill thought out?

WSJ clearly identified the metrics they were looking at. They provide the ranking of each airline in each metric, and then gave an overall rank.

Would you be here complaining if the title of the article was "The Best and Worst U.S. Airlines of 2017 in Terms of Operational Performance" instead?
 
b6bos143
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Re: B6 Worst Airline in the USA?

Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:39 pm

RDUDDJI wrote:
b6bos143 wrote:

Just to be clear: The point of the post was not to say B6 was "no worse than anybody else." It was to help illustrate that, when you isolate the two airports mentioned frequently in this thread, JetBlue was largely on par with other carriers (not significantly better or worse than the others,) at least for the most recent month for which data is available. I think it makes a fair point that with a disproportionately large percentage of its operation in those two cities, JetBlue still does fairly well at maintaining an on-time operation most of the time, despite its lack of another hub the size of JFK or BOS in a different geographical area to help balance the negative effects of a saturated operating region.


I'm a fan of B6. They're probably one of my top three airlines in the US. However, the reason I don't fly them (unless terminating in BOS/JFK) is because I intentionally avoid congested/delay prone airports like JFK. I suspect there are many others that do the same. B6 (and other carriers who choose to hub at congested/delay prone airports) deserve some of the blame. They're directly contributing to the congestion. They could have another (connecting) hub operation at a less congested airport*.

*I'm not advocating or even suggesting that B6 move their hub (after all it's the No 1 O&D market in the US), but they did choose the bed that they lie in. They should not be absolved from all blame for congestion issues that they contribute to. On the flip side, just ~10 years ago, WN pulled down the PHL hub citing chronic delays that were cascading into their whole network. Of course that's a bit easier for WN who has a dozen or so hubs, but it's a business decision available for any airline.

Just my 2 XRP.


I wholeheartedly agree with you. They chose to operate in this area, so they have to step up and do whatever is necessary to effectively compete with the others. It's one thing for me to post on-time stats for BOS and JFK and say "look, they're not really that much worse than the others" here in this forum. The average flier is not going to do that. They're going to go to a news source, be it WSJ or another, and see that JetBlue is the "worst" and then book on a competitor.

:point: By the way - hi everyone! I've been lurking on this site for nearly 20 years, and I've never joined or posted before today. It's a pleasure to finally join in the conversations! :D
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: B6 Worst Airline in the USA?

Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:44 pm

Polot wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
Anyway, WSJ's measurement here is seriously flawed, one-sided, and ill thought out. I can't believe they produced this garbage. All the data involved in airline operations needs to be collected, analyzed, and put out there for the public to decide. As always in this country, the sheep are eating it up while those of us with free thought left can see through this.

Just out of curiosity how is the data flawed, one-sided, and ill thought out?

WSJ clearly identified the metrics they were looking at. They provide the ranking of each airline in each metric, and then gave an overall rank.

Would you be here complaining if the title of the article was "The Best and Worst U.S. Airlines of 2017 in Terms of Operational Performance" instead?


Yeah they went in and only "pick and chose" what they wanted to look at/report. This almost seems personal as opposed to an actual study/analysis.

If the article did read that, I would absolutely be fine with that. But, since they are producing fake news, I will not stop complaining.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
 
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Polot
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Re: B6 Worst Airline in the USA?

Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:49 pm

Super80Fan wrote:
Yeah they went in and only "pick and chose" what they wanted to look at/report. This almost seems personal as opposed to an actual study/analysis.

All studies/analysis, including scientific ones, "pick and choose" what to look at/report. I say this as a scientist myself.

What metrics do you think they should be looking at but are not, and how do scientifically quantify and "rank" an airline based off that metric?
 
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jnev3289
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Re: B6 Worst Airline in the USA?

Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:53 pm

Fake news garbage gets to stay but you point out the values of a social media presence by an airline and you get deleted... Unbelievable
 
RDUDDJI
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Re: B6 Worst Airline in the USA?

Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:58 pm

Super80Fan wrote:

Yeah they went in and only "pick and chose" what they wanted to look at/report. This almost seems personal as opposed to an actual study/analysis.

If the article did read that, I would absolutely be fine with that. But, since they are producing fake news, I will not stop complaining.


Um yeah [slow clap], it's the same report they do every year... Did you actually read the article? They give a clear explanation of what is measured and how. In no way is that "fake news". It's news "you dislike". Go create a rigged analysis that magically puts your favorite carrier on top and then see if anyone will publish it. We'll all wait...smh

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-best-a ... 1515594783
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
NichCage
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Re: B6 Worst Airline in the USA?

Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:03 pm

Just because an airline has to deal with snow at two of it's main bases (BOS and JFK) doesn't mean that it's bad at all. AC has to deal with snow at YUL, YYZ, YYC, and maybe YVR. If a flight is delayed because of bad weather it's not the fault of AC. The onboard experince could be amazing despite a delay that's out of the airline's control.
 
stlgph
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Re: B6 Worst Airline in the USA?

Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:07 pm

Look kiddies -

No one here is saying JetBlue isn't giving you nice movies & TV to watch, clean planes, an entire (free) can of Coke to enjoy on the trip, some decent (free) snacks that are a step above some of the other carriers, and a couple of extra smiles along the way.

That's all nice and most appreciated, but we're talking about what matters most: getting from Point A to Point B.

Right now, JetBlue just isn't cutting it. Deal.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
UWPAviation
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Re: B6 Worst Airline in the USA?

Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:08 pm

This is all New York markets....Which are horrible regardless of whatever airline it is.
 
AA94
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Re: B6 Worst Airline in the USA?

Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:20 pm

The situation at B6 is complex: An extremely high aircraft utilization, coupled with the fact that 70% of their daily movements touch JFK/BOS, creates operational issues. Add in unpredictable weather at FLL and you've got a perfect storm. Granted, these are issues of their own making, and they need to do a better job of managing and mitigating them.
Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
 
tphuang
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Re: B6 Worst Airline in the USA?

Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:37 pm

If b6 was actually significantly worse than delta and aa in JFK and bos, it won't be able to attract any corporate traffic or ff base.

All data point to the opposite. In spite of an absolutely horrendous year of operation, they have more ff base now than ever and more corporate base. And they are higher yielding than the dl, the greatest airline ever created.

So I guess the real world haven't found them to be significantly worse than their competitors in this area. It looks like the stats for bos and JFK show that they are certainly below average, but not significantly worse.

On the flip side, the continued revenue growth might encourage them to do nothing to fix their operational problems.
 
ILS28ORD
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Re: B6 Worst Airline in the USA?

Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:42 pm

I flew them from FLL-SJU and really enjoyed it. Aside from maybe the NE weather delays, they're onboard experience is good and if you don't fly them through NYC/BOS they're a good choice. Better than Allegiant, NK, or Frontier.
 
RDUDDJI
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Re: B6 Worst Airline in the USA?

Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:04 pm

tphuang wrote:
If b6 was actually significantly worse than delta and aa in JFK and bos, it won't be able to attract any corporate traffic or ff base.

All data point to the opposite. In spite of an absolutely horrendous year of operation, they have more ff base now than ever and more corporate base. And they are higher yielding than the dl, the greatest airline ever created.

So I guess the real world haven't found them to be significantly worse than their competitors in this area. It looks like the stats for bos and JFK show that they are certainly below average, but not significantly worse.


b6bos143 wrote:
At JFK, for the period 10/2016 - 11/2017:

B6 - 71.15 % on time; 3.06% cancel
AA - 74.51% on time; 1.78% cancel
DL - 78.29% on time; 1.07% cancel


10% worse OT percentage than the best (large percentage of pax) carrier at JFK. Almost 300% higher rate of cancellation. I would call that "significant"...

BOS is better, but still significantly worse than their peers.
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
tphuang
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Re: B6 Worst Airline in the USA?

Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:05 pm

RDUDDJI wrote:
tphuang wrote:
If b6 was actually significantly worse than delta and aa in JFK and bos, it won't be able to attract any corporate traffic or ff base.

All data point to the opposite. In spite of an absolutely horrendous year of operation, they have more ff base now than ever and more corporate base. And they are higher yielding than the dl, the greatest airline ever created.

So I guess the real world haven't found them to be significantly worse than their competitors in this area. It looks like the stats for bos and JFK show that they are certainly below average, but not significantly worse.


b6bos143 wrote:
At JFK, for the period 10/2016 - 11/2017:

B6 - 71.15 % on time; 3.06% cancel
AA - 74.51% on time; 1.78% cancel
DL - 78.29% on time; 1.07% cancel


10% worse OT percentage than the best (large percentage of pax) carrier at JFK. Almost 300% higher rate of cancellation. I would call that "significant"...

BOS is better, but still significantly worse than their peers.

I am not sure if delta numbers there includes regional operation.

As for cancellations, that's bound to happen with how much of their flights are toward Florida and Puerto Rico. Much larger than delta.

Again, it clearly hasn't been bad enough that people have made the switch. The opposite is happening.
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: B6 Worst Airline in the USA?

Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:33 pm

RDUDDJI wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:

Yeah they went in and only "pick and chose" what they wanted to look at/report. This almost seems personal as opposed to an actual study/analysis.

If the article did read that, I would absolutely be fine with that. But, since they are producing fake news, I will not stop complaining.


Um yeah [slow clap], it's the same report they do every year... Did you actually read the article? They give a clear explanation of what is measured and how. In no way is that "fake news". It's news "you dislike". Go create a rigged analysis that magically puts your favorite carrier on top and then see if anyone will publish it. We'll all wait...smh

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-best-a ... 1515594783


Lies, straight up lies. The real world knows JetBlue fails at being OT at NYC/BOS, but the real world also realizes that other aspects of the company fit their needs to that is why they continue to win customer service awards/gain business travel. The real world looks at many factors before they book their flight, and look to friends/family on their experiences. In WSJ world, they create slander because a gate agent wouldn't upgrade them to an EMS seat for free.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
 
richierich
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Re: B6 Worst Airline in the USA?

Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:35 pm

stlgph wrote:
Look kiddies -

No one here is saying JetBlue isn't giving you nice movies & TV to watch, clean planes, an entire (free) can of Coke to enjoy on the trip, some decent (free) snacks that are a step above some of the other carriers, and a couple of extra smiles along the way.

That's all nice and most appreciated, but we're talking about what matters most: getting from Point A to Point B.

Right now, JetBlue just isn't cutting it. Deal.


Fair point, but I think you have to say percentage points behind DL and AA at JFK and BOS. And, again, considering how many regional flights both legacy carriers operate, the numbers really begin to blur when those get counted. Maybe B6 should open a regional outfit to skirt the DOT numbers.

I'm not saying the WSJ is wrong, and metrics are there for all to see. However they don't tell the whole story. That's the problem here.
To imply that there is a deep-seeded operational issue at JetBlue, as several on this site have done on this thread and in the past, is misguided given where JetBlue has chosen to focus their business. Indeed, they have made their bed - there is a reason they are based in New York and not Idaho.
None shall pass!!!!
 
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United787
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Re: B6 Worst Airline in the USA?

Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:20 pm

Super80Fan wrote:
United787 wrote:
I have flown them twice, ORD-JFK and JFK-ORD.

The first flight was cancelled because of "weather", in fact B6 cancelled most of their flights that day...the other airlines did not and operated fairly normally that day. I had to fly the next day.

The second flight was delayed for 3-4 hours at JFK, their hub, because of "late arriving crew". They can't find a crew at their own hub?

So yes, in my experience, worst airline ever. Even Olympic circa 1991 wasn't this bad.


This post folks, is why you take airline complaints with a grain of salt.


That was exactly my point. My sarcasm didn't come across... but my experience, although crappy, is so limited, I can't really judge. But others do about UA all day long with the same amount of experience...
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: B6 Worst Airline in the USA?

Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:22 pm

United787 wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
United787 wrote:
I have flown them twice, ORD-JFK and JFK-ORD.

The first flight was cancelled because of "weather", in fact B6 cancelled most of their flights that day...the other airlines did not and operated fairly normally that day. I had to fly the next day.

The second flight was delayed for 3-4 hours at JFK, their hub, because of "late arriving crew". They can't find a crew at their own hub?

So yes, in my experience, worst airline ever. Even Olympic circa 1991 wasn't this bad.


This post folks, is why you take airline complaints with a grain of salt.


That was exactly my point. My sarcasm didn't come across... but my experience, although crappy, is so limited, I can't really judge. But others do about UA all day long with the same amount of experience...


My apologies, I overlook sarcasm sometimes.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
 
stlgph
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Re: B6 Worst Airline in the USA?

Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:26 pm

Super80Fan wrote:
RDUDDJI wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:

Yeah they went in and only "pick and chose" what they wanted to look at/report. This almost seems personal as opposed to an actual study/analysis.

If the article did read that, I would absolutely be fine with that. But, since they are producing fake news, I will not stop complaining.


Um yeah [slow clap], it's the same report they do every year... Did you actually read the article? They give a clear explanation of what is measured and how. In no way is that "fake news". It's news "you dislike". Go create a rigged analysis that magically puts your favorite carrier on top and then see if anyone will publish it. We'll all wait...smh

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-best-a ... 1515594783


Lies, straight up lies. The real world knows JetBlue fails at being OT at NYC/BOS, but the real world also realizes that other aspects of the company fit their needs to that is why they continue to win customer service awards/gain business travel. The real world looks at many factors before they book their flight, and look to friends/family on their experiences. In WSJ world, they create slander because a gate agent wouldn't upgrade them to an EMS seat for free.


Yeah, and then there's those folks at Bloomberg, clearly making stuff up, too.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... since-2007

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. None.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
stlgph
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Re: B6 Worst Airline in the USA?

Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:29 pm

richierich wrote:
stlgph wrote:
Look kiddies -

No one here is saying JetBlue isn't giving you nice movies & TV to watch, clean planes, an entire (free) can of Coke to enjoy on the trip, some decent (free) snacks that are a step above some of the other carriers, and a couple of extra smiles along the way.

That's all nice and most appreciated, but we're talking about what matters most: getting from Point A to Point B.

Right now, JetBlue just isn't cutting it. Deal.


Fair point, but I think you have to say percentage points behind DL and AA at JFK and BOS. And, again, considering how many regional flights both legacy carriers operate, the numbers really begin to blur when those get counted. Maybe B6 should open a regional outfit to skirt the DOT numbers.

I'm not saying the WSJ is wrong, and metrics are there for all to see. However they don't tell the whole story. That's the problem here.
To imply that there is a deep-seeded operational issue at JetBlue, as several on this site have done on this thread and in the past, is misguided given where JetBlue has chosen to focus their business. Indeed, they have made their bed - there is a reason they are based in New York and not Idaho.


That's exactly what it boils down - where did you choose to make your bed. If you build a house in Kansas, don't sit around and wonder why a cow comes crashing through the front door when it gets windy unless you're going to put the safe guards/infrastructure in place to manage such a situation.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: B6 Worst Airline in the USA?

Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:54 pm

stlgph wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
RDUDDJI wrote:

Um yeah [slow clap], it's the same report they do every year... Did you actually read the article? They give a clear explanation of what is measured and how. In no way is that "fake news". It's news "you dislike". Go create a rigged analysis that magically puts your favorite carrier on top and then see if anyone will publish it. We'll all wait...smh

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-best-a ... 1515594783


Lies, straight up lies. The real world knows JetBlue fails at being OT at NYC/BOS, but the real world also realizes that other aspects of the company fit their needs to that is why they continue to win customer service awards/gain business travel. The real world looks at many factors before they book their flight, and look to friends/family on their experiences. In WSJ world, they create slander because a gate agent wouldn't upgrade them to an EMS seat for free.


Yeah, and then there's those folks at Bloomberg, clearly making stuff up, too.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... since-2007

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. None.


You just outed yourself, good going.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: B6 Worst Airline in the USA?

Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:17 pm

AAvgeek744 wrote:
IMO, B6 has gone down, but it's still light years ahead of F9, NK, or B6.



JetBlue is so amazing that not even JetBlue can beat JetBlue!


In all seriousness though, I agree. They're way ahead of any of our ULCCS, and by extension, the legacies as well.


There is room for operational improvement, and with a newer fleet, and some of the other initiatives, it will probably be a better year for them. I'm certainly not afraid to fly with them for all my east coast needs.
Much like a GE90, I'm a huge fan of Big Twins...
 
BerenErchamion
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Re: B6 Worst Airline in the USA?

Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:18 pm

diverdave wrote:
shamrock350 wrote:
"The Wall Street Journal looks at seven key operational metrics for their rankings, including on-time arrivals, canceled flights, extreme delays, 2-hour tarmac delays, mishandled luggage, involuntary bumping and complaints."


So what is wrong with those metrics, and what would you propose be used in their stead?


A lot of them (e.g. airspace congestion, weather) are beyond their control, and disproportionately affect JetBlue because its operations are focused in areas that are particularly susceptible to those issues.
It's OK to be rude to fascists.
 
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OA940
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Re: B6 Worst Airline in the USA?

Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:19 pm

Even for us who've never flown them you can tell they actually put effort into their interiors and care for customers. I'd say they are the best in the US for their markets. Definitely beats AA's new MAX's (soon to be the norm).
A350/CSeries = bae
 
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OA260
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Re: B6 Worst Airline in the USA?

Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:09 pm

I flew them for the first time back in November. SJU-MCO and of course it was at a time B6 were axing tons of flights from SJU due to hurricane damage in PR. Lucky my flight was not cancelled but the earlier one was. I found them ok. Check in was hassle free and crew friendly. I liked the EMS product. Cabin was one of the older ones and tired though. I am sure the new product is impressive. I would certainly choose them again. The only thing they should update is the ability to add extra bags at anytime after booking and not just at check in/OLCI.
 
AAvgeek744
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Re: B6 Worst Airline in the USA?

Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:58 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
AAvgeek744 wrote:
IMO, B6 has gone down, but it's still light years ahead of F9, NK, or B6.



JetBlue is so amazing that not even JetBlue can beat JetBlue!


In all seriousness though, I agree. They're way ahead of any of our ULCCS, and by extension, the legacies as well.


There is room for operational improvement, and with a newer fleet, and some of the other initiatives, it will probably be a better year for them. I'm certainly not afraid to fly with them for all my east coast needs.


I'd agree they are better than the ULCC's. My experience with them versus WN and DL show the legacies have the edge.
 
AtomicGarden
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Re: B6 Worst Airline in the USA?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:38 am

Let me join the "this is bollocks" crew here. Granted that it was a short, summer, hop to BOS, but I recently flew with them and had a very enjoyable flight.
 
gmcc
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Re: B6 Worst Airline in the USA?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:19 am

<sarcasm> Well this clearly can't be true because according to some on A.net, the WORST airline in the USA bought the Best airline in the USA about a year ago and is in the process of painting all their red and white airbuses blue and white to match their blue and white boeings.<sarcasm>. Now turning are running for cover behind a Most West Coast A321 white tail. :duck: :stirthepot:
 
RDUDDJI
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Re: B6 Worst Airline in the USA?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:58 am

tphuang wrote:

Again, it clearly hasn't been bad enough that people have made the switch. The opposite is happening.


Please provide a link for this claim.
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
CobaltScar
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Re: B6 Worst Airline in the USA?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:06 am

B6 is overdue for some structural and fleet (and fleet interior) changes, and they need more of their business to branch outside of the NE.

What part of B6 do you guys like the most? The Flight Attendants/In-flight service and experience?
 
RDUDDJI
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Re: B6 Worst Airline in the USA?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:15 am

BerenErchamion wrote:
diverdave wrote:
shamrock350 wrote:
"The Wall Street Journal looks at seven key operational metrics for their rankings, including on-time arrivals, canceled flights, extreme delays, 2-hour tarmac delays, mishandled luggage, involuntary bumping and complaints."


So what is wrong with those metrics, and what would you propose be used in their stead?


A lot of them (e.g. airspace congestion, weather) are beyond their control, and disproportionately affect JetBlue because its operations are focused in areas that are particularly susceptible to those issues.


B6 (and any other carrier) have a choice where (and in the case of JFK, what time of day) they plan their operation. You choose a congested airport/airspace, you better plan accordingly (I.e. longer block times, more spares, more ready reserves, etc.). Judging by generally accepted operational metrics, B6 has been behind their peers recently. It really is that simple. Doesn’t mean they’re a bad airline, just means they need operational improvement.
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
klm617
Posts: 2955
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: B6 Worst Airline in the USA?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:16 am

Just another survey bought and paid for by cooperate dollars. These things are nothing more than fluff and told from the perspective of the agenda they are trying to further.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
RDUDDJI
Posts: 1920
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 4:42 am

Re: B6 Worst Airline in the USA?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:22 am

CobaltScar wrote:
B6 is overdue for some structural and fleet (and fleet interior) changes, and they need more of their business to branch outside of the NE.

What part of B6 do you guys like the most? The Flight Attendants/In-flight service and experience?


I think their hard onboard product is the best in the US. Free WiFi, Live TV, decent free snacks, etc. Crews are also very good (not my fav but certainly top 3).
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
RDUDDJI
Posts: 1920
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 4:42 am

Re: B6 Worst Airline in the USA?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:24 am

klm617 wrote:
Just another survey bought and paid for by cooperate dollars. These things are nothing more than fluff and told from the perspective of the agenda they are trying to further.


Yes operational surveys (using actual data) have no place in the airline World. Why would travelers care if a carrier can operate flights, on time, with their bags... /sarcasm.
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
MR27122
Posts: 57
Joined: Sat May 06, 2017 3:00 am

Re: B6 Worst Airline in the USA?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:25 am

BREECH wrote:
MR27122 wrote:
B6 is hyper-proactive towards resolving customer issues in favor of the customer, often before they're asked for anything by the customer. The Valentine's Day massacre conditioned them "big time", and shed light open fantastical operational failings...namely, they possessed no "action plan". A March ice storm crippled the airline & tarnished it's image just as "phones on planes" were starting to be in vogue. Neeleman certainly deserves a heap of criticism for somehow believing B6 was immune from Mother Nature. Geography is a very large piece of the pie in regards to how these stats skew. The one absolute failing of B6 is timeliness as the day progresses. As for not "over booking"----I don't "buy it". I flew them on Saturday from BOS-AUS...the flight had been cxld Thur/Fri due to the northeast snowstorm. Prior to boarding they were asking for 4 "volunteers" yet kept on repeating the flight was not oversold (in that specific instance, 2 days of back-to-back cancellations for the nonstop BOS-AUS, it probably would've been better to be transparent---too many pax were booked for too few seats). Yet they proceeded with boarding after not getting sufficient volunteers. We then sat for 4.5 hours due to a "weight & balance" issue (we were overweight) that evolved into a suitable runway issue due to winds, that became a fuel issue due to weight & the decision to offload fuel & stop at RDU, that became a decision to re-fuel after 2 people volunteered to get off, that became a too few passengers---6 had deplaned because we were sitting for so long and had to be called back, while they offered everybody the option to de-plane (very odd), that finally turned into a refueling issue because they were having issues connecting the fuel pump, that became a suitable runway issue again. The point being---B6 has always seemed to be transparant since the Valentine's Day massacre...not so much anymore (if your giving away $700 travel vouchers pre-boarding & going via JFK to 4 volunteers, yet nobody bites, it's fairly obvious that the flight is overbooked....going "weight and balance" when you need 4 people off the plane was simply dopey because 4 people is a razor thin weight & balance "need").

Okay, so you had a bad flight. Doesn't mean the airline is bad. I'm sure you've been in a situation where you are late everywhere all day and the problems just keeping piling up and every call on your phone just adds to the already disastrous day. Mind you, people around you are kind enough to not call it "Bobby's f*ck-up Tuesday" (or what's your real name). Oh, and Valentine's Day massacre was a tragic event in Chicago in 1929 when Al Capone's gang killed seven people. Don't you think calling a plane delay the same name is a bit... how do I say it nicely?.. STUPID?


I'm Mosiac 3 years running, flown Mint countless times, live in Boston, & favor B6 anytime/always. My business travel "rule" is make believe it's my first day of basic-training again....just "Yes Sir/Ma'am, No Sir/Ma'am". Everything goes more smoothly & an airline delay/hotel walking you etc is inconsequential. My point was that I've seen slippage, yet B6 continues to supersede---in my estimation---all other airlines. In the instance I gave, which is all of 6 days old---and came on the heels of a 12" snow storm, why not simply state the truth after boarding the aircraft & then asking for 4 volunteers due to the aircraft being overweight? Also, their Mint Menu items r more like kitchen concoctions of ingredients above my palate knowledge basis...I'm a total simpleton re: food, but I wouldn't call it "stupid"

Yes, Massacre is too strong when a DUMMY interprets to a gangsta...how do I say this...murder upon an AIRLINE WEBSITE. Only an ---how do I say this---IDIOT wouldn't recognize The JetBlue JFK Valentine's Day Massacre as the flash-point for pax empowerment & Gov regulations...hence it was far more consequential than simply being delayed upon a plane Mr. Brainiac!
 
tphuang
Posts: 1742
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: B6 Worst Airline in the USA?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:05 am

RDUDDJI wrote:
tphuang wrote:

Again, it clearly hasn't been bad enough that people have made the switch. The opposite is happening.


Please provide a link for this claim.


Go check FT JetBlue forum. There are now E90 flights with 25+ mosaics on board. Whereas in the years past, 5 mosaic would've been a lot.

As for corporate contracts, all of their major corporate markets in Boston area have seen improvements in fares against primary competition in the past year. Some markets even saw big improvements from Q1 to Q2.

Now, you can attribute that to more complete network coverage or mint, but whatever the reason is, they are getting more ff and business markets are doing better.

On the flip side, they also shouldn't take this for granted and blow away all the gains by continuing to run worse operation than their major competitors.
 
NWADTWE16
Posts: 549
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:12 am

Re: B6 Worst Airline in the USA?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:29 am

I'm convinced many Americans just cant be fixed. Its the same crap responses when presented with actual FACTS, they drone on and on still, as if the facts weren't just shared with them. I am American too btw.

related to the topic:
I've stated in other threads: JetBlue has an issue with customer service, front facing (Ticket counter agents, Gate agents, and the Management that should be bettering them), other than that they are my #2 go to carrier. They made JFK into what it is, it was Intl before and some American flights, mostly also intl.
I haven't been everywhere, but it's on my list!
 
BREECH
Posts: 498
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:20 am

Re: B6 Worst Airline in the USA?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:44 am

Polot wrote:
Also late arriving crew was probably because the inbound flight they were working on was late to arrive (aka, also delayed), not because "they started their day at home in LA". If you decide to commute you have a responsibly to be on work on time, living in the other side of the country is not a valid excuse.

I'm sure you have never been late to work. Or school. Or an appointment. Or an important meeting. And have never caused any inconvenience to anyone. Ever.
No friendship, love or respect unite people as much as shared hatred.
Sergey Dovlatov
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 8516
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: B6 Worst Airline in the USA?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:41 pm

BREECH wrote:
Polot wrote:
Also late arriving crew was probably because the inbound flight they were working on was late to arrive (aka, also delayed), not because "they started their day at home in LA". If you decide to commute you have a responsibly to be on work on time, living in the other side of the country is not a valid excuse.

I'm sure you have never been late to work. Or school. Or an appointment. Or an important meeting. And have never caused any inconvenience to anyone. Ever.

3-4 hours late with no notice? Nope, not at all. Again it is the pilots responsibility to be there on time. That is their job, and a critical one for the operations of an airline at that. It is not a hobby for them that they can just reschedule if timing doesn't exactly work out. They chose to live somewhere outside their base requiring a flight to commute, they were not forced to do so. They might get a warning/slap on the wrist if they are late once or twice, but if it a regular thing they would no longer have to worry about the commute, as they would no longer be employed by JetBlue. How would your employer feel if you were showing up to work 3-4 hours late?
 
N757ST
Posts: 571
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 6:00 am

Re: B6 Worst Airline in the USA?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:46 pm

Polot wrote:
BREECH wrote:
Polot wrote:
Also late arriving crew was probably because the inbound flight they were working on was late to arrive (aka, also delayed), not because "they started their day at home in LA". If you decide to commute you have a responsibly to be on work on time, living in the other side of the country is not a valid excuse.

I'm sure you have never been late to work. Or school. Or an appointment. Or an important meeting. And have never caused any inconvenience to anyone. Ever.

3-4 hours late with no notice? Nope, not at all. Again it is the pilots responsibility to be there on time. That is their job, and a critical one for the operations of an airline at that. It is not a hobby for them that they can just reschedule if timing doesn't exactly work out. They chose to live somewhere outside their base requiring a flight to commute, they were not forced to do so. They might get a warning/slap on the wrist if they are late once or twice, but if it a regular thing they would no longer have to worry about the commute, as they would no longer be employed by JetBlue. How would your employer feel if you were showing up to work 3-4 hours late?



Or, the original crew timed out or had to be re-routed, and this a reserve crew had to be called out. Reserves are on a 2 hour call to the airport +1 hour to get the flight out. Seems far more likely then the pilots were “tardy”.....
 
IPFreely
Posts: 2057
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:26 am

Re: B6 Worst Airline in the USA?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:23 pm

Polot wrote:
I think the main issue is the title they used (general best/worst airline) versus their actual rankings which are perfectly valid metrics for looking at airlines.


People need to be careful of what metrics they use with regard to on-time and completed flights. Just look at weather in the northeast and especially at JFK yesterday (Friday). At the end of the day, Delta cancelled 6 flights and JetBlue cancelled 119 flights. And that's before Delta operates these cancelled flights today or tomorrow, bringing their "completion percentage" up to 100. So Delta performed great, JetBlue is terrible, and if you travelled yesterday you should have flown Delta, right? But wait -- there's more. JetBlue operates all it's own flights and Delta outsources much of it's domestic flying. And the Delta Connection regional airlines combined to cancel 480 flights yesterday. So we know what the selected metrics say, but which airline really performed better?
 
fastmover
Posts: 313
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 5:37 pm

Re: B6 Worst Airline in the USA?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:46 pm

Polot wrote:
BREECH wrote:
Polot wrote:
Also late arriving crew was probably because the inbound flight they were working on was late to arrive (aka, also delayed), not because "they started their day at home in LA". If you decide to commute you have a responsibly to be on work on time, living in the other side of the country is not a valid excuse.

I'm sure you have never been late to work. Or school. Or an appointment. Or an important meeting. And have never caused any inconvenience to anyone. Ever.

3-4 hours late with no notice? Nope, not at all. Again it is the pilots responsibility to be there on time. That is their job, and a critical one for the operations of an airline at that. It is not a hobby for them that they can just reschedule if timing doesn't exactly work out. They chose to live somewhere outside their base requiring a flight to commute, they were not forced to do so. They might get a warning/slap on the wrist if they are late once or twice, but if it a regular thing they would no longer have to worry about the commute, as they would no longer be employed by JetBlue. How would your employer feel if you were showing up to work 3-4 hours late?



If the “crew” is late I guarantee is because of something out of their control.
Let’s see in my 12 years of flying 121 I have never been late because of me. There are rules about which commute flights you need to take. Pilots being late because they caused it is very very rare.
What is common are gates not giving the full information because they don’t have it.

Just the other day the inbound crew was stuck so they called in a reserve crew. Now we have 2 hours but by the time they decided to re re crew it departure time was only an hour away. They asked how soon can you be there and the standard answer is 2 hours but I’ll do my best to be there (ASAP) if you don’t say you need the 2 hours and it ends up going out late it’s on you so that’s why we say that. So I get there in an hour and as I walk up, the agent is saying the captain is running late and when he gets here we will go. So I get the stink eye from the pax and the standard thanks for showing up. But I was actually way earlier than I needed to be. Point of the story is you are not always given the correct information.
 
fastmover
Posts: 313
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 5:37 pm

Re: B6 Worst Airline in the USA?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:47 pm

IPFreely wrote:
Polot wrote:
I think the main issue is the title they used (general best/worst airline) versus their actual rankings which are perfectly valid metrics for looking at airlines.


People need to be careful of what metrics they use with regard to on-time and completed flights. Just look at weather in the northeast and especially at JFK yesterday (Friday). At the end of the day, Delta cancelled 6 flights and JetBlue cancelled 119 flights. And that's before Delta operates these cancelled flights today or tomorrow, bringing their "completion percentage" up to 100. So Delta performed great, JetBlue is terrible, and if you travelled yesterday you should have flown Delta, right? But wait -- there's more. JetBlue operates all it's own flights and Delta outsources much of it's domestic flying. And the Delta Connection regional airlines combined to cancel 480 flights yesterday. So we know what the selected metrics say, but which airline really performed better?



And than DELTA touts how amazing it is. It’s so annoying how they use the system to get away with stuff like that.
 
DDR
Posts: 1412
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:09 pm

Re: B6 Worst Airline in the USA?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:00 pm

fastmover wrote:
IPFreely wrote:
Polot wrote:
I think the main issue is the title they used (general best/worst airline) versus their actual rankings which are perfectly valid metrics for looking at airlines.


People need to be careful of what metrics they use with regard to on-time and completed flights. Just look at weather in the northeast and especially at JFK yesterday (Friday). At the end of the day, Delta cancelled 6 flights and JetBlue cancelled 119 flights. And that's before Delta operates these cancelled flights today or tomorrow, bringing their "completion percentage" up to 100. So Delta performed great, JetBlue is terrible, and if you travelled yesterday you should have flown Delta, right? But wait -- there's more. JetBlue operates all it's own flights and Delta outsources much of it's domestic flying. And the Delta Connection regional airlines combined to cancel 480 flights yesterday. So we know what the selected metrics say, but which airline really performed better?



And than DELTA touts how amazing it is. It’s so annoying how they use the system to get away with stuff like that.

I agree with both of you. Those regional jets say DELTA on the side but yet DL doesn't take the it when DL decides to cancel the RJ flight. Also, at my airline we do not "delay" flights for 24 hours to avoid a cancellation. To me that should actually be illegal.

BTW, I'm not a DL hater. I've flown them internationally a few times and enjoyed the flights.
 
IPFreely
Posts: 2057
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:26 am

Re: B6 Worst Airline in the USA?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:16 pm

tphuang wrote:
I am not sure if delta numbers there includes regional operation.

As for cancellations, that's bound to happen with how much of their flights are toward Florida and Puerto Rico. Much larger than delta.

Again, it clearly hasn't been bad enough that people have made the switch. The opposite is happening.


The Delta numbers do not include their regional operation. As posted above, look at yesterday when the northeast -- particularly JFK -- had weather issues:
Delta cancelled 6 flights.
JetBlue cancelled 119 flights.
Delta Connection carriers (combined) cancelled 480 flights.
Delta's regional operation is as bad as it gets.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 3913
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: B6 Worst Airline in the USA?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:12 pm

b6bos143 wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
Those metrics are for one month. A good weather month. A low traffic month.

Post the stats at JFK and BOS for the year. Then we will have a real discussion.


At JFK, for the period 10/2016 - 11/2017:

B6 - 71.15 % on time; 3.06% cancel
AA - 74.51% on time; 1.78% cancel
DL - 78.29% on time; 1.07% cancel

At BOS, for the same period:

B6 - 73.13% on time; 2.06% cancel
AA - 77.11% on time; 2.39% cancel
DL - 79.03% on time; 1.00% cancel


Thank you. Six or seven points of on-time performance is a big deal. Last in a 3-way race is a big deal. B6 management shouldn't be looking for rationalizations (but they have other hubs!); they should be driving improvements.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 3913
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: B6 Worst Airline in the USA?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:24 pm

IPFreely wrote:
Polot wrote:
I think the main issue is the title they used (general best/worst airline) versus their actual rankings which are perfectly valid metrics for looking at airlines.


People need to be careful of what metrics they use with regard to on-time and completed flights. Just look at weather in the northeast and especially at JFK yesterday (Friday). At the end of the day, Delta cancelled 6 flights and JetBlue cancelled 119 flights. And that's before Delta operates these cancelled flights today or tomorrow, bringing their "completion percentage" up to 100. So Delta performed great, JetBlue is terrible, and if you travelled yesterday you should have flown Delta, right? But wait -- there's more. JetBlue operates all it's own flights and Delta outsources much of it's domestic flying. And the Delta Connection regional airlines combined to cancel 480 flights yesterday. So we know what the selected metrics say, but which airline really performed better?


You're right to call attention to Delta mainline stats vs. what they call 'Delta brand' stats which include Delta Connection. You might want to normalize for total number of flights, and to focus on JFK cancellations vs. total cancellations. Delta Connection didn't cancel 480 flights at JFK yesterday.

You're on shakier ground to assert that Delta outsources 'much of it's (sic) domestic flying.' It was 15.5% of domestic RPMs in 2017, down from 2016.

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