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Bombardier Wants to Sell Downsview Airport Land

Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:33 am
by YVRing
Just an interesting story I came across.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/b ... -1.4486212

Apparently they are hoping to get about 900million CAD from the sale if the developer can get the rights to put some mixed used buildings. Another story says that they were considering moving to YYZ. I cannot imagine land there is cheap...

I assume Downsview cannot be used for commercial aviation?

Re: Bombardier Wants to Sell Downsview Airport Land

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:32 am
by dr1980
With the right zoning in place that land would be worth a fortune. With the recent opening of the TTC Line 1 extension it’s practically surrounded by subway stations, so that zoning would likely be an easy sell to the city.

The avgeek in me cringes to think of this but the urban planner in me thinks it actually makes a lot of good sense.

Re: Bombardier Wants to Sell Downsview Airport Land

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:32 am
by ExMilitaryEng
Elections coming in this year in Ontario. Good timing for BBD to steer the pot.

BBD has said repeatedly it's losing $ with every Q400 sold. Something has to give.

I see a sale of the whole property ($1B?) and BBD leasing back only what it needs, for X many years - BBD only uses 10% of the property.

Re: Bombardier Wants to Sell Downsview Airport Land

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:41 am
by whywhyzee
YVRing wrote:

I assume Downsview cannot be used for commercial aviation?


This would essentially spell the closing of Downsiview. It’s not a practical airport, it is pinned below CYYZ’s approach path, the airspace is a nightmare. Furthermore, it is owned and operated by Bombarider, it’s sale would likely be a part of the sale of the entire facility.

Re: Bombardier Wants to Sell Downsview Airport Land

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:25 am
by Skywatcher
This should have been done years ago. I suspect that the ownership of the land is intertwined with numerous government entities which will likely complicate the process unfortunately. For all the bad press that BBD receives from the Toronto based media (horrible subsidies even though Oshawa/Oakville car industry received 15 billion etc.) it'll be interesting to see what the reaction will be when BBD closes down one of the largest remaining manufacturing facilities in the GTA.

Re: Bombardier Wants to Sell Downsview Airport Land

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:31 am
by LockheedBBD
Skywatcher wrote:
This should have been done years ago. I suspect that the ownership of the land is intertwined with numerous government entities which will likely complicate the process unfortunately. For all the bad press that BBD receives from the Toronto based media (horrible subsidies even though Oshawa/Oakville car industry received 15 billion etc.) it'll be interesting to see what the reaction will be when BBD closes down one of the largest remaining manufacturing facilities in the GTA.


Bombardier is damned if they do and damned if they don't. If they do/can sell, the politicians will complain about the job losses etc., and money given to Bombardier. If they can't/don't sell, then Bombardier will continue to lose money, continue further into debt and won't be able to pay back loans, thus also resulting in job losses.

Re: Bombardier Wants to Sell Downsview Airport Land

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:02 am
by AvroLanc
I agree with whywhyzee, Downsview is not practical now or in the long run. Keeping the jobs in the GTA is imperative for Provincial and Federal Government as elections loom. Hope they dont move back to Montreal? Hamilton(YHM) would be a good location, lots of land and still close to Toronto for job relocation. Problem being how much cash would be burned in relocating the line? Downsview is prime real estate and should be sold.

Re: Bombardier Wants to Sell Downsview Airport Land

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:45 am
by leghorn
Never been in Canada in my life but this picture tells me why it is in the city's interest to redevelop the land. With good transport links to the centre of the city that is grade A prime real estate.
While Bombardier might get another decade out of the Q400 the sales towards the end will trickle off and it seems that building planes is a hit and miss activity where if you are lucky the plane establishes itself in the market.

Image

Re: Bombardier Wants to Sell Downsview Airport Land

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:12 pm
by Skywatcher
BBD used to have an airfield at their Cartierville production facility in Montreal. It was sold off I guess around 20 years ago for real estate development. It's now almost full of townhouses/apartment buildings/golf course.

Re: Bombardier Wants to Sell Downsview Airport Land

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:02 pm
by sanjet
There is little public support for further government funding into Bombardier. I think given the real estate prices reaching their peak in Toronto, it is a wise decission to sell the land and get more capital and allocate it appropriately elsewhere.

Re: Bombardier Wants to Sell Downsview Airport Land

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:11 pm
by leghorn
just putting a dent in their debt pile would be a start.

Re: Bombardier Wants to Sell Downsview Airport Land

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:42 pm
by 1900Driver
ExMilitaryEng wrote:

BBD has said repeatedly it's losing $ with every Q400 sold. Something has to give.

.


Source?

Re: Bombardier Wants to Sell Downsview Airport Land

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:50 pm
by leghorn
1900Driver wrote:
ExMilitaryEng wrote:

BBD has said repeatedly it's losing $ with every Q400 sold. Something has to give.

.


Source?

https://www.fliegerfaust.com/bombardier ... 01163.html
q400 project still not sold though.

Re: Bombardier Wants to Sell Downsview Airport Land

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:32 pm
by leghorn
it is a direct quote.

Re: Bombardier Wants to Sell Downsview Airport Land

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:32 pm
by 767333ER
leghorn wrote:
1900Driver wrote:
ExMilitaryEng wrote:

BBD has said repeatedly it's losing $ with every Q400 sold. Something has to give.

.


Source?

https://www.fliegerfaust.com/bombardier ... 01163.html
q400 project still not sold though.

If the source is wrong about the status of the program and who owns it what’s to say they are right about anything else such as whether they make money off of it or not? I don’t think it’s very reputable to begin with so who knows.

Re: Bombardier Wants to Sell Downsview Airport Land

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:18 pm
by ExMilitaryEng
leghorn wrote:
it is a direct quote.

Alain Bellemare has said BBD was losing $ with every Q400 sold. That was also mentionned during labor contract negotiations - after which DHC unions finally agreed to an eventual wing manufacturing outsourcing.

(I never mentioned that the Q400 program was sold - but it might soon)

Re: Bombardier Wants to Sell Downsview Airport Land

Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:26 pm
by leghorn
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... -site-sale

Agent to sell Downsview selected.
They claim savings from not needing to maintain the runway if they move to a location where there is already a runway being maintained.

Re: Bombardier Wants to Sell Downsview Airport Land

Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:40 am
by BawliBooch
Whats the history here? Isnt the property owned & managed as a Crown Corporation?

If BBD received some property as a development grant, doesnt it belong to the Govt?

Re: Bombardier Wants to Sell Downsview Airport Land

Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:32 pm
by YVRing
This would be a good location for a future Amazon HQ.

Bombardier sells Downsview Production plant

Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 12:38 pm
by northstardc4m
https://www.thestar.com/business/2018/0 ... r-635m.htm

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/busines ... nd-profit/

$635M CAD price tag.

Out by 2023 at the latest... no word on future production site for Q400. Global business jets to new production site leased at YYZ from GTAA (wonder where...).

Re: Bombardier sells Downsview Production plant

Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 12:53 pm
by queb
In fact, only the site has been sold, the plant will be relocated at Pearson Airport.

Re: Bombardier sells Downsview Production plant

Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 12:58 pm
by northstardc4m
queb wrote:
In fact, only the site has been sold, the plant will be relocated at Pearson Airport.


Again only the Global Business jets are being moved to Pearson, not the Q400... they have not stated where the Q400 line will be moved to.

Re: Bombardier sells Downsview Production plant

Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 1:03 pm
by queb
northstardc4m wrote:
queb wrote:
In fact, only the site has been sold, the plant will be relocated at Pearson Airport.


Again only the Global Business jets are being moved to Pearson, not the Q400... they have not stated where the Q400 line will be moved to.


Yes but the production plant has not been sold.

Re: Bombardier sells Downsview Production plant

Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 1:08 pm
by baje427
Perhaps they will announce they are discontinuing the Q?

Re: Bombardier sells Downsview Production plant

Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 1:09 pm
by Noshow
A long time ago the Q400 assembly was said to be moving to Ulyananovsk, Russia, wasn't it? What happened to those plans?

Re: Bombardier sells Downsview Production plant

Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 1:13 pm
by Skywatcher
Good news-they need the liquidity. It looks like 5 years until they have to move the Q400 production facility.
I'm sure they can play the "subsidy game" during that time before deciding which city offers the most enticements. I am of the opinion that as much as BBD is accused of being a subsidy pig the city of Toronto/province of Ontario don't seem to have stepped up to the plate very much. The BBD production facility is the largest industrial manufacturing employer in Ontario I believe. Maybe the Ontario government will have to show a bit of love to keep BBD there?

Re: Bombardier sells Downsview Production plant

Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 2:23 pm
by ExMilitaryEng
Skywatcher wrote:
I am of the opinion that as much as BBD is accused of being a subsidy pig the city of Toronto/province of Ontario don't seem to have stepped up to the plate very much. The BBD production facility is the largest industrial manufacturing employer in Ontario I believe. Maybe the Ontario government will have to show a bit of love to keep BBD there?

I like your wordings.

BBD said they were loosing money on each Q400 sold. GTA manufacturing costs are not the cheapest, and Downsview unions are quite demanding (rightfully so I guess, considering the cost of living in the area).

Finally, with the Airbus CSeries partnership coming online soon, I smell the Q400 program (that competes with the Airbus/Leonardo ATR72 in Toulouse) will be sold rather sooner than later.

Once the Q400 program sold, I see potential for much greater cooperation between Airbus and BBD. Like streamlining / cost cuttings in the BBD's business jets / CRJs supply chain... What about marketing coordination?

Re: Bombardier sells Downsview Production plant

Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 2:26 pm
by GalaxyFlyer
There’s always room at Mirabel, especially with the second C-Series line in Alabama under Airbus. Whipsawing governments since 1990. The G&M article states “Boeing commuter jets” were taken over by BBD. Wrong, Boeing owned DHC for awhile during the Dash 8 era, but had nothing to do with the CRJ.

GF

Re: Bombardier sells Downsview Production plant

Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 2:30 pm
by golfradio
northstardc4m wrote:
production site leased at YYZ from GTAA (wonder where...).


I remember reading somewhere (GTAA masterplan?) that the huge parcel of land where the International Center stands is being taken over by GTAA. There was some master plan to convert the area around the airport into a transportation hub

Re: Bombardier sells Downsview Production plant

Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 2:34 pm
by golfradio
Found a link in the local Mississauga News https://www.mississauga.com/news-story/ ... ssissauga/

Re: Bombardier sells Downsview Production plant

Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 2:59 pm
by leghorn
Maybe I've become desensitized to high property prices but that sale price seems poor to me for a large connected flat site so close to a large population centre.
Candadian Dollars don't look good when converted to Euro.

Re: Bombardier Wants to Sell Downsview Airport Land

Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 3:23 pm
by mercure1
And its sold...

Bombardier sells Downsview assembly site to pension fund in major makeover
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/busines ... -in-major/

Bombardier Inc. has struck a deal to sell its Downsview site in Toronto for about US$635-million, further shoring up its cash reserves as it reshapes its business.
The plane-and-train maker said it will sell the sought-after property in Canada’s biggest city to Public Sector Pension Investment Board for net proceeds of US$550.

Re: Bombardier Wants to Sell Downsview Airport Land

Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 3:34 pm
by janders
Interesting, the sale is to a quasi government organization (crown corporation). Maybe more fodder for government aid folks.

Re: Bombardier sells Downsview Production plant

Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 3:40 pm
by bigjku
Skywatcher wrote:
Good news-they need the liquidity. It looks like 5 years until they have to move the Q400 production facility.
I'm sure they can play the "subsidy game" during that time before deciding which city offers the most enticements. I am of the opinion that as much as BBD is accused of being a subsidy pig the city of Toronto/province of Ontario don't seem to have stepped up to the plate very much. The BBD production facility is the largest industrial manufacturing employer in Ontario I believe. Maybe the Ontario government will have to show a bit of love to keep BBD there?


You are right on needing liquidity. Their debt service coverage is in the toilet for the type of business they are in.

Re: Bombardier sells Downsview Production plant

Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 5:10 pm
by jalarner
golfradio wrote:
Found a link in the local Mississauga News https://www.mississauga.com/news-story/ ... ssissauga/


Interesting to see that... I actually have a trade show there this weekend (setup is happening right now).

Since the International Center used to be Orenda Engines there used to be the rail line across Airport Rd. into MDD/Boeing...I wonder if that might reappear. It would make sense in the N.E. corner since the land has been vacant since MDD/Boeing was torn down. Lots of free space, and lots of possibilities.

Re: Bombardier sells Downsview Production plant

Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 6:08 pm
by YYZLGA
leghorn wrote:
Maybe I've become desensitized to high property prices but that sale price seems poor to me for a large connected flat site so close to a large population centre.
Candadian Dollars don't look good when converted to Euro.


It's because the site is not zoned for redevelopment, and the City of Toronto is quite opposed to the loss of industrial employment lands. The buyer has a long battle with the municipal government ahead of them and no guarantee that they will get approval for the plans they want.

Re: Bombardier sells Downsview Production plant

Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 6:14 pm
by LockheedBBD
Noshow wrote:
A long time ago the Q400 assembly was said to be moving to Ulyananovsk, Russia, wasn't it? What happened to those plans?


Politics. A couple months after the agreement, Canada, Europe, and the U.S. imposed sanctions on Russia then the deal fell apart.


See here: https://www.thestar.com/business/2014/1 ... _hold.html


Bombardier Inc. has put on hold a $3.4 billion (U.S.) plan to build up to 100 Q400 turboprops in Russia due to the political situation there.

“We are not moving ahead because the conditions are not right at this point in time for a joint venture in Russia,” said Bombardier president and CEO Pierre Beaudoin on a conference call with reporters on Thursday. “It’s been pushed back to at least 2015,” Beaudoin said. “Given the political situation and the economy in Russia, we are setting this project aside for the time being.” Canada has been a vocal critic of Russian president of Vladmir Putin over Russia’s annexation of Crimea and arming of rebels in Ukraine’s east. Canada joined the European Union and the United States in imposing sanctions on Russia.


Re: Bombardier sells Downsview Production plant

Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 6:26 pm
by northstardc4m
jalarner wrote:
golfradio wrote:
Found a link in the local Mississauga News https://www.mississauga.com/news-story/ ... ssissauga/


Interesting to see that... I actually have a trade show there this weekend (setup is happening right now).

Since the International Center used to be Orenda Engines there used to be the rail line across Airport Rd. into MDD/Boeing...I wonder if that might reappear. It would make sense in the N.E. corner since the land has been vacant since MDD/Boeing was torn down. Lots of free space, and lots of possibilities.


Problem with that land is it's the soil is badly contaminated. If they were to build there it might make things complicated.

There is also the former firing range land off of Bramalea next to FedEx.

But i have a funny feeling they are taking over an existing building of some kind in the infield.

Re: Bombardier Wants to Sell Downsview Airport Land

Posted: Sat May 26, 2018 9:26 pm
by leghorn
http://www.lesailesduquebec.com/?p=7037

Q400 Downsview Workers balloting about strike action.

Re: Bombardier Wants to Sell Downsview Airport Land

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:28 pm
by leghorn
http://www.lesailesduquebec.com/?p=7179

98% in favour of strike

canadian dollar 400,000 cost per airframe for establishing another production facility.

I figure Bombardier should sell the Q400 to Airbus, let them stretch it to just under 100 seats and aim for introduction of a turbo-prop that will replace both ATR72 and Q400 toward the end of the next decade. Give it an A120 model number and market it as a gateway drug to the Airbus world.

There are so many airlines with orders to upgrade Q400 and ATR72 planes at the moment that their greatest competitive threat isn't other manufacturers' product but their own secondhand planes.

Re: Bombardier Wants to Sell Downsview Airport Land

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:51 pm
by Skywatcher
If they don't move soon the union will likely extract >400k per aircraft out of them. If I was BBD I would expect Doug Ford to kick in some cash to remain in Ontario (maybe North Bay?) or move somewhere else where the unions aren't so difficult and/or the government is more welcoming. Either that or start the process of shutting down the program. It can't be very profitable at this point.

Re: Bombardier Wants to Sell Downsview Airport Land

Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:13 am
by leghorn
some sort of deal has been done with the Unions regarding shutting down downsview and it should be appoved by workers at a vote today.

https://www.bloombergquint.com/onweb/20 ... ld-factory

Re: Bombardier Wants to Sell Downsview Airport Land

Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:56 pm
by leghorn
Q400 negotiations
http://www.lesailesduquebec.com/?p=7273
my interpretation of the website's interpretation of union/company negotiations:
They want to present a united front and try to get support in Ontario to build a new factory in exchange for the promise of sustainable jobs when downsview closes down.

Re: Bombardier Wants to Sell Downsview Airport Land

Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:19 pm
by ddp
Skywatcher wrote:
If they don't move soon the union will likely extract >400k per aircraft out of them. If I was BBD I would expect Doug Ford to kick in some cash to remain in Ontario (maybe North Bay?) or move somewhere else where the unions aren't so difficult and/or the government is more welcoming. Either that or start the process of shutting down the program. It can't be very profitable at this point.


Unless there is a lot of government cash, does North Bay make any sense?

You would think it would be near an airport with a large footprint and near supply chains. Hamilton could work. Even places like Windsor or Kingston.

I really do think the q400 may just be scrapped all together at some point. Probably made more money off the land vs the plane.

Re: Bombardier Wants to Sell Downsview Airport Land

Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:26 pm
by Skywatcher
My take is that the union caved on salary increases (less than 1% per year for 3 years) with the hope that the Q400 will relocate somewhere else in the GTA from Downsview. I suspect BBD is looking for government cash to help finance the move or they'll stop production between 3 and 5 years from now. Time will tell

Re: Bombardier Wants to Sell Downsview Airport Land

Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:43 pm
by northstardc4m
ddp wrote:
Skywatcher wrote:
If they don't move soon the union will likely extract >400k per aircraft out of them. If I was BBD I would expect Doug Ford to kick in some cash to remain in Ontario (maybe North Bay?) or move somewhere else where the unions aren't so difficult and/or the government is more welcoming. Either that or start the process of shutting down the program. It can't be very profitable at this point.


Unless there is a lot of government cash, does North Bay make any sense?

You would think it would be near an airport with a large footprint and near supply chains. Hamilton could work. Even places like Windsor or Kingston.

I really do think the q400 may just be scrapped all together at some point. Probably made more money off the land vs the plane.


BBD no longer has any real presence in North Bay and it's unlikely the city would kick any money their way after the CL-415 fiasco (ramp up and then almost died, leaving the city with a big question mark and lots of people out of fulltime work they paid to be trained to do.) So really any municipality with a decent sized airport could be a candidate at this point?