Another perspective on Musk's tunnel/transport project:
https://www.citylab.com/transportation/ ... le/562841/

"...one aspect of the proposed Loop concept would be incredibly valuable if Musk actually pulled it off, and not just to Chicago. That’s the cost of the tunneling itself... If the Boring Company’s cost projection of $1 billion is anywhere near accurate —that pencils out to $55.5 million per mile—[it will be] far and away the cheapest construction cost for any subterranean transit line in the U.S."

It remains to be seen whether their skepticism is justified - should be an interesting few years ahead!

yeogeo wrote:

Another perspective on Musk's tunnel/transport project:
https://www.citylab.com/transportation/ ... le/562841/

"...one aspect of the proposed Loop concept would be incredibly valuable if Musk actually pulled it off, and not just to Chicago. That’s the cost of the tunneling itself... If the Boring Company’s cost projection of $1 billion is anywhere near accurate —that pencils out to $55.5 million per mile—[it will be] far and away the cheapest construction cost for any subterranean transit line in the U.S."

It remains to be seen whether their skepticism is justified - should be an interesting few years ahead!

Last night I watched "Chicago Tonight - The Week in Review" on ch 11 and there was a lively debate on this topic. One question asked was what is the benefit of taking this service if your final destination is not in the immediate vicinity of Block 37. The choices are to then take a cab or Uber or hop on the L or a bus. You could have boarded a cab or the L right at ORD and possibly saved time and grief by not having to switch modes of transport and pay a second fare. Also, what if during the boring of the tunnel some long-forgotten pipe or other piece of infrastructure is breached? Who will service the system in case of a breakdown? This is a private company so they'll have to coordinate closely with city agencies and unions. The L is maintained by CTA which is a city agency having the resources to handle situations.

Finally, IF this thing is built I sure hope the vehicles don't have "LAX TERMINAL 2" as a destination sign!

Couple of nice Andy Egloff ORD shots from earlier this month, downloaded onto the airliners photo database today, both with the skyline and a Finnair A-330 (I presume) as backdrop.

the Copa Biomuseo livery
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biomuseo
and the American tribute TWA livery.

EWRandMDW wrote:

yeogeo wrote:

Another perspective on Musk's tunnel/transport project:
https://www.citylab.com/transportation/ ... le/562841/

"...one aspect of the proposed Loop concept would be incredibly valuable if Musk actually pulled it off, and not just to Chicago. That’s the cost of the tunneling itself... If the Boring Company’s cost projection of $1 billion is anywhere near accurate —that pencils out to $55.5 million per mile—[it will be] far and away the cheapest construction cost for any subterranean transit line in the U.S."

It remains to be seen whether their skepticism is justified - should be an interesting few years ahead!

Last night I watched "Chicago Tonight - The Week in Review" on ch 11 and there was a lively debate on this topic. One question asked was what is the benefit of taking this service if your final destination is not in the immediate vicinity of Block 37. The choices are to then take a cab or Uber or hop on the L or a bus. You could have boarded a cab or the L right at ORD and possibly saved time and grief by not having to switch modes of transport and pay a second fare. Also, what if during the boring of the tunnel some long-forgotten pipe or other piece of infrastructure is breached? Who will service the system in case of a breakdown? This is a private company so they'll have to coordinate closely with city agencies and unions. The L is maintained by CTA which is a city agency having the resources to handle situations.

Finally, IF this thing is built I sure hope the vehicles don't have "LAX TERMINAL 2" as a destination sign!

The "superstation", as it was once called is at Block 37 and will be connected to red and blue lines. They are also rebuilding the state and lake elevated platform and a connection is also expected to that station as well. So that will cover all CTA trains sans the yellow. Also a decent amount of Chicago's downtown hotels are within a quarter mile or less. The rest are very close to CTA stations.

As for the two centuries of infrastructure that will be bored through, I couldn't agree more. Seems very risky. There are still a lot of sites underground that are unknown from the 19th century. What happens if they get to one of these sites? Bore around it, under it, through it? Also Musk stated that his company would sign a lease with the city which I imagine would probably be for 99 years. He stated that his company would be in charge of maintaining and upgrading the system over that time. My question is what happens if the company goes bankrupt? Then who's going to be responsible...most likely the city.

Finally, it was mentioned that Musk would be open to also building an APM at OHare under the new terminals, international terminal and to a western terminal. If true that should be the first priority over an express train. Much less digging and in my opinion much more important, as there would probably 100 times the amount of people using that compared to the express train.

When is EL AL coming back?

_AA_777_MAN wrote:

When is EL AL coming back?

I have no inside knowledge but I wouldn’t expect them anytime soon. I thought for sure after a return to MIA ORD would be next, but their decision to launch SFO, a longer route that already has nonstop competition on it, shows that ORD must not be a priority. Even with lobbying from the mayor of Chicago there doesn’t seem to be much interest from El Al. They have flown to ORD on and off since the early 70s so there is plenty of history and maybe I’m completely off and they announce it next year but I wouldn’t hold out for that. Just my 2 cents.

piedmontf284000 wrote:

EWRandMDW wrote:

yeogeo wrote:

Another perspective on Musk's tunnel/transport project:
https://www.citylab.com/transportation/ ... le/562841/

"...one aspect of the proposed Loop concept would be incredibly valuable if Musk actually pulled it off, and not just to Chicago. That’s the cost of the tunneling itself... If the Boring Company’s cost projection of $1 billion is anywhere near accurate —that pencils out to $55.5 million per mile—[it will be] far and away the cheapest construction cost for any subterranean transit line in the U.S."

It remains to be seen whether their skepticism is justified - should be an interesting few years ahead!

Last night I watched "Chicago Tonight - The Week in Review" on ch 11 and there was a lively debate on this topic. One question asked was what is the benefit of taking this service if your final destination is not in the immediate vicinity of Block 37. The choices are to then take a cab or Uber or hop on the L or a bus. You could have boarded a cab or the L right at ORD and possibly saved time and grief by not having to switch modes of transport and pay a second fare. Also, what if during the boring of the tunnel some long-forgotten pipe or other piece of infrastructure is breached? Who will service the system in case of a breakdown? This is a private company so they'll have to coordinate closely with city agencies and unions. The L is maintained by CTA which is a city agency having the resources to handle situations.

Finally, IF this thing is built I sure hope the vehicles don't have "LAX TERMINAL 2" as a destination sign!

The "superstation", as it was once called is at Block 37 and will be connected to red and blue lines. They are also rebuilding the state and lake elevated platform and a connection is also expected to that station as well. So that will cover all CTA trains sans the yellow. Also a decent amount of Chicago's downtown hotels are within a quarter mile or less. The rest are very close to CTA stations.

As for the two centuries of infrastructure that will be bored through, I couldn't agree more. Seems very risky. There are still a lot of sites underground that are unknown from the 19th century. What happens if they get to one of these sites? Bore around it, under it, through it? Also Musk stated that his company would sign a lease with the city which I imagine would probably be for 99 years. He stated that his company would be in charge of maintaining and upgrading the system over that time. My question is what happens if the company goes bankrupt? Then who's going to be responsible...most likely the city.

Finally, it was mentioned that Musk would be open to also building an APM at OHare under the new terminals, international terminal and to a western terminal. If true that should be the first priority over an express train. Much less digging and in my opinion much more important, as there would probably 100 times the amount of people using that compared to the express train.

The last part about musk building the post-security APM between all terminals, if true would be awesome and makes a lot of sense, but where did you hear this? I haven't heard or found anything on this.

Planeboy17 wrote:

_AA_777_MAN wrote:

When is EL AL coming back?

I have no inside knowledge but I wouldn’t expect them anytime soon. I thought for sure after a return to MIA ORD would be next, but their decision to launch SFO, a longer route that already has nonstop competition on it, shows that ORD must not be a priority. Even with lobbying from the mayor of Chicago there doesn’t seem to be much interest from El Al. They have flown to ORD on and off since the early 70s so there is plenty of history and maybe I’m completely off and they announce it next year but I wouldn’t hold out for that. Just my 2 cents.

MIA and SFO looked better to them apparently. It's still the mayors golden egg tho... Could be pitching to UA instead? Who knows at this point...

Like PAL, I'm not believing anything until it comes out officially.

Let the process begin!
Emailed out today


Interesting that they included a proviso for local participation, no matter who the leads the design:
"...teams will be strongly incentivized to commit to mentoring two or more small, local firms."

yeogeo wrote:

Let the process begin!
Emailed out today


Interesting that they included a proviso for local participation, no matter who the leads the design:
"...teams will be strongly incentivized to commit to mentoring two or more small, local firms."

Very exciting news! So if the final RFQ is due by August, what do we think the timeline would be to submit the final RFPs? Mid 2019? I’m just anxious to see the proposed designs!

ADrum23 wrote:

yeogeo wrote:

Things don't seem to be going especially well with the bus system subbing for the people-mover between terminals, remote parking, etc., according to this article anyway. I must say, having problems accommodating wheelchairs seems like something they should have prepared for.

https://www.bizjournals.com/chicago/new ... j=82024561

Anyone here have personal experience?

What a freaking disaster, what was Chicago thinking??? Why did they need to shut down the whole system M-F, could they not have simply rerouting trains onto one side with less frequent service and then used shuttles to supplement the reduced schedule?

And we still don't know for sure what exactly they are doing to the existing system. This is a ominous prelude of things to come when the core of O'Hare 21 gets going.......

There are so many questions about what will happen to various parts of ORD in the future. I've read that the economy parking lot where the ATS station is located will close, when the garage opens. Never mind that fact that the garage doesn't have as many spaces as the surface lot, and the surface lot will close from time to time (such as the Saturday when many schools go on winter or spring break). No one knows what the City's plans are for the rental car lots, once the rental cars are moved into the garage. And the City has no timetable for widening I-190, since the gate expansion plan will certainly generate more O&D traffic. One assumes that with the Tollway Authority planning the project to renovate the central portion of Interstate 294, there must be plans to coordinate with the City for interchange.

Ginger Evans is resigning (well her contract is expiring). Being replaced by someone named Jamie Rhee, who has worked throughout various city departments including aviation.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/chicago.su ... chief/amp/

Not sure if we should be reading into this. Ginger was successful with working in collaboration with numerous consultants and others to grow Chicago's air service, redesign the runways, get a new terminal lease and use agreement, and kick off the terminal redesign. Her contract was up too.

I wish her the best of luck, and thank her for being a pleasure to work with and for her awesome work that she did over the years.

nmdrdh787 wrote:

Ginger Evans is resigning (well her contract is expiring). Being replaced by someone named Jamie Rhee, who has worked throughout various city departments including aviation.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/chicago.su ... chief/amp/

Not sure if we should be reading into this. Ginger was successful with working in collaboration with numerous consultants and others to grow Chicago's air service, redesign the runways, get a new terminal lease and use agreement, and kick off the terminal redesign. Her contract was up too.

I wish her the best of luck, and thank her for being a pleasure to work with and for her awesome work that she did over the years.

This is a bad move not bring her back. It was the first time they went out and got an aviation expert to be the Aviation Commissioner and now she is leaving. Previously the Aviation Commissioner position was just a promotion from a different city position. It was always someone with little aviation experience but next in-line. That seems to be the case again. Maybe since the heavy negotiations are over this will not have a huge impact.

FromGSPtoChi wrote:

nmdrdh787 wrote:

Ginger Evans is resigning (well her contract is expiring). Being replaced by someone named Jamie Rhee, who has worked throughout various city departments including aviation.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/chicago.su ... chief/amp/

Not sure if we should be reading into this. Ginger was successful with working in collaboration with numerous consultants and others to grow Chicago's air service, redesign the runways, get a new terminal lease and use agreement, and kick off the terminal redesign. Her contract was up too.

I wish her the best of luck, and thank her for being a pleasure to work with and for her awesome work that she did over the years.

This is a bad move not bring her back. It was the first time they went out and got an aviation expert to be the Aviation Commissioner and now she is leaving. Previously the Aviation Commissioner position was just a promotion from a different city position. It was always someone with little aviation experience but next in-line. That seems to be the case again. Maybe since the heavy negotiations are over this will not have a huge impact.

So the Mayor of Chicago is letting the person who negotiated new leases with the airlines, which were 30 years old and very pro- AA and UA; developed and delivered on an historic $8.7 billion agreement to modernize O’Hare; opened two new runways and the first new gates in 25 years; undertook the largest investment plan for Midway in two decades; and attracted new airlines and services to make O’Hare the only American city to offer direct flights to all six major continents. Yeah, that makes sense. Ms Evans, who refused to kiss the backsides of the City Council members, found out for herself what is is like to work in the city of Chicago. The City Council’s Black and Hispanic Caucuses had threatened to hold up the $4 billion borrowing that will raise the mountain of O’Hare debt to $13 billion to press their demand for a fair share of jobs and contracts generated by the project. Sounds like there is a Mayoral election coming soon and the Mayor needs all the votes he can get, so he had to offer up Ms Evans as a sacrificial lamb . Further proof that the city of Chicago is still a corrupt/political patronage city.

Jamie Rhee is a political hack who was once the Chief of Staff of former Mayor Daley. She has been pushed around from one department to another for the last 24 years, but somehow she is the best fit to steer the 8.7 modernization project of O'Hare...puh-lease!! No, what she is and what she will do is make sure that only "qualified" construction firms, vendors, and suppliers will be in on the modernization project. In other words, she will make sure the Aldermen's "list" of workers get hired, so that the Aldermen can hand out patronage jobs to those in their wards who do their dirty work for them at election time. Further proof that nothing has changed in the last 60 years in Chicago. One step forward, three steps back.

Thank you Ginger Evans for bringing ORD into the 21st Century. It was nice while it lasted.

ILS28ORD wrote:

piedmontf284000 wrote:

EWRandMDW wrote:

Last night I watched "Chicago Tonight - The Week in Review" on ch 11 and there was a lively debate on this topic. One question asked was what is the benefit of taking this service if your final destination is not in the immediate vicinity of Block 37. The choices are to then take a cab or Uber or hop on the L or a bus. You could have boarded a cab or the L right at ORD and possibly saved time and grief by not having to switch modes of transport and pay a second fare. Also, what if during the boring of the tunnel some long-forgotten pipe or other piece of infrastructure is breached? Who will service the system in case of a breakdown? This is a private company so they'll have to coordinate closely with city agencies and unions. The L is maintained by CTA which is a city agency having the resources to handle situations.

Finally, IF this thing is built I sure hope the vehicles don't have "LAX TERMINAL 2" as a destination sign!

The "superstation", as it was once called is at Block 37 and will be connected to red and blue lines. They are also rebuilding the state and lake elevated platform and a connection is also expected to that station as well. So that will cover all CTA trains sans the yellow. Also a decent amount of Chicago's downtown hotels are within a quarter mile or less. The rest are very close to CTA stations.

As for the two centuries of infrastructure that will be bored through, I couldn't agree more. Seems very risky. There are still a lot of sites underground that are unknown from the 19th century. What happens if they get to one of these sites? Bore around it, under it, through it? Also Musk stated that his company would sign a lease with the city which I imagine would probably be for 99 years. He stated that his company would be in charge of maintaining and upgrading the system over that time. My question is what happens if the company goes bankrupt? Then who's going to be responsible...most likely the city.

Finally, it was mentioned that Musk would be open to also building an APM at OHare under the new terminals, international terminal and to a western terminal. If true that should be the first priority over an express train. Much less digging and in my opinion much more important, as there would probably 100 times the amount of people using that compared to the express train.

The last part about musk building the post-security APM between all terminals, if true would be awesome and makes a lot of sense, but where did you hear this? I haven't heard or found anything on this.

http://www.dailyherald.com/news/2018061 ... -rosemont-

"Chicago is planning to offer parking, a terminal building and underground trains to other terminals on the west side of O'Hare". When asked at the press conference about this, Musk was supposedly open to being a bidder. Again, if true, as I was not at the press conference, this would be much more needed then an express train. However, with that said, Musk is ponying up all the funds for the express train, while I imagine if he were to bid for a potential APM between terminals, then the city would be on the hook for 100 percent of building and maintenance costs. So a huge difference. In the end, I doubt anything underground is built between terminals. Most likely, an extension of the current APM will be built and it will shadow the new ring road around the airport, which will connect to Route 390, the Jane Addams and the Tri-State Tollways.

The news just keeps coming on Musk tunnel project:
"Elon Musk says the Chicago tunnel project could start construction in ‘three to four months' Passengers might also be able to get pre-cleared for airport security"

https://www.theverge.com/2018/6/14/1746 ... el-project

piedmontf284000 wrote:

So the Mayor of Chicago is letting the person who negotiated new leases with the airlines, which were 30 years old and very pro- AA and UA; developed and delivered on an historic $8.7 billion agreement to modernize O’Hare; opened two new runways and the first new gates in 25 years; undertook the largest investment plan for Midway in two decades; and attracted new airlines and services to make O’Hare the only American city to offer direct flights to all six major continents. Yeah, that makes sense. Ms Evans, who refused to kiss the backsides of the City Council members, found out for herself what is is like to work in the city of Chicago. The City Council’s Black and Hispanic Caucuses had threatened to hold up the $4 billion borrowing that will raise the mountain of O’Hare debt to $13 billion to press their demand for a fair share of jobs and contracts generated by the project. Sounds like there is a Mayoral election coming soon and the Mayor needs all the votes he can get, so he had to offer up Ms Evans as a sacrificial lamb . Further proof that the city of Chicago is still a corrupt/political patronage city.

Jamie Rhee is a political hack who was once the Chief of Staff of former Mayor Daley. She has been pushed around from one department to another for the last 24 years, but somehow she is the best fit to steer the 8.7 modernization project of O'Hare...puh-lease!! No, what she is and what she will do is make sure that only "qualified" construction firms, vendors, and suppliers will be in on the modernization project. In other words, she will make sure the Aldermen's "list" of workers get hired, so that the Aldermen can hand out patronage jobs to those in their wards who do their dirty work for them at election time. Further proof that nothing has changed in the last 60 years in Chicago. One step forward, three steps back.

Thank you Ginger Evans for bringing ORD into the 21st Century. It was nice while it lasted.

This is shocking. I had hoped Rahmbo would rise above this BS but he is proving more and more to be a stooge... I think the Laquan McDonald scandal cost him a lot of political power and he has been trying to shore up political support ever since, especially in the minority community.

What I don't understand is why they couldn't keep Evans to run the Aviation Department and put Rhee as the head of procurement for the O'Hare 21 project if they really need her for that purpose. But why have her the whole department?

United787 wrote:

What I don't understand is why they couldn't keep Evans to run the Aviation Department and put Rhee as the head of procurement for the O'Hare 21 project if they really need her for that purpose. But why have her the whole department?

piedmontf284000 wrote:

FromGSPtoChi wrote:

nmdrdh787 wrote:

Ginger Evans is resigning (well her contract is expiring). Being replaced by someone named Jamie Rhee, who has worked throughout various city departments including aviation.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/chicago.su ... chief/amp/

Not sure if we should be reading into this. Ginger was successful with working in collaboration with numerous consultants and others to grow Chicago's air service, redesign the runways, get a new terminal lease and use agreement, and kick off the terminal redesign. Her contract was up too.

I wish her the best of luck, and thank her for being a pleasure to work with and for her awesome work that she did over the years.

This is a bad move not bring her back. It was the first time they went out and got an aviation expert to be the Aviation Commissioner and now she is leaving. Previously the Aviation Commissioner position was just a promotion from a different city position. It was always someone with little aviation experience but next in-line. That seems to be the case again. Maybe since the heavy negotiations are over this will not have a huge impact.

So the Mayor of Chicago is letting the person who negotiated new leases with the airlines, which were 30 years old and very pro- AA and UA; developed and delivered on an historic $8.7 billion agreement to modernize O’Hare; opened two new runways and the first new gates in 25 years; undertook the largest investment plan for Midway in two decades; and attracted new airlines and services to make O’Hare the only American city to offer direct flights to all six major continents. Yeah, that makes sense. Ms Evans, who refused to kiss the backsides of the City Council members, found out for herself what is is like to work in the city of Chicago. The City Council’s Black and Hispanic Caucuses had threatened to hold up the $4 billion borrowing that will raise the mountain of O’Hare debt to $13 billion to press their demand for a fair share of jobs and contracts generated by the project. Sounds like there is a Mayoral election coming soon and the Mayor needs all the votes he can get, so he had to offer up Ms Evans as a sacrificial lamb . Further proof that the city of Chicago is still a corrupt/political patronage city.

Jamie Rhee is a political hack who was once the Chief of Staff of former Mayor Daley. She has been pushed around from one department to another for the last 24 years, but somehow she is the best fit to steer the 8.7 modernization project of O'Hare...puh-lease!! No, what she is and what she will do is make sure that only "qualified" construction firms, vendors, and suppliers will be in on the modernization project. In other words, she will make sure the Aldermen's "list" of workers get hired, so that the Aldermen can hand out patronage jobs to those in their wards who do their dirty work for them at election time. Further proof that nothing has changed in the last 60 years in Chicago. One step forward, three steps back.

Thank you Ginger Evans for bringing ORD into the 21st Century. It was nice while it lasted.

I'm also little saddened to see Ms. Evans leave. She did an awesome job, and I could not be more impressed. But at the same time, I realize there is difference between planning development and getting it done. Rahm was right when he congratulated her and said her efforts were "herculean."

That being said, it's been well-reported that Ms. Evans was more like an engineer, not a builder. That's what the groundwork for ORD 21 needed: an architect, a planner. Now it needs a doer. For better or worse, when it comes to over-seeing large municipal capital improvement projects, like redeveloping ORD (or LaGuardia for that matter), a dedicated city insider is probably more of the type of person you want. Ms. Evans laid the foundation for business development, now its time for the sales office to come in and close and execute. (i.e. Ms. Rhee). I concede it shouldn't be this way, but that's just the fact of life in almost every major metro in America.


The Sun-Times had a good summary of this whole thing:

https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/ginge ... ermen-say/

AmricanShamrok wrote:

This is what T5 looks like this summer in terms of gate utilization. For the afternoon peak hours, some aircraft (especially those that have long ground time at ORD) are towed to a remote stand after unloading and are brought back an hour or so before departure as has been the case for years. Other aircraft are, of course, towed over to T1 or T3 for departure. You'll note gates M6 and M14 seem underutilized - this is because they are unusable when widebody aircraft are parked at either or both of the adjoining gates. They tend not to use M14 at all.

Caveat: I do not work at ORD so this may not be 100% accurate - it is based on my own observations of gate usage by airlines at T5 and the data used is taken from a random Monday in July 2018. Arrival/departure times are rounded to the nearest :00 or :30.

Still getting caught up on this thread since I've been out traveling for a few weeks.... and just want to thank you for putting this together. It is awesome!

I've had a rough outline of this in my head, but seeing this in graphical form really is super cool. Hope you can keep this up and this table gets busier.... cheers!

Pretty substantial increase for United on its ORD-SJO route: once daily from January 7 (previously once or twice per week).
Wonder if anyone knows the history of this route... has it ever been a daily service before with any carrier -even if seasonal?
https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... e-in-1q19/

The people mover will be operational next week, just for the week of the Fourth.

I gotta be honest, ATS being down is frustrating. Yesterday, I did notice there was a shuttle "guide" or person directing people to the buses, but still, not being able to hop onto the train is just plain inconvenient. Supposedly its going to be down through winter; I just hope its up and running for next summer.

https://www.bizjournals.com/chicago/new ... eopen.html

https://www.bizjournals.com/chicago/new ... eopen.html

When the holiday period is over--any news on average wait time to get a shuttle bus from. Term 5 to term 1. at 1:00pm on a Tuesday?

yeogeo wrote:

Pretty substantial increase for United on its ORD-SJO route: once daily from January 7 (previously once or twice per week).
Wonder if anyone knows the history of this route... has it ever been a daily service before with any carrier -even if seasonal?
https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... e-in-1q19/

I’m purely going on memory but I don’t think this route was ever daily. I would guess the max would be 4 a week but I even doubt it was that high. I know they’ve been flying to CR for a while now, to both SJO and LIR but am 95% sure neither were daily.

Trk1 wrote:

When the holiday period is over--any news on average wait time to get a shuttle bus from. Term 5 to term 1. at 1:00pm on a Tuesday?

I can't speak of T5 specifically, but last week I only waited about 6 minutes at T1 around 6:00pm. Didn't need to make a transfer, but I was parked on the wrong side of the garage and didn't want to walk all the way across it.

The good news is that the CDA seems to have heard about the complaints and has worked to address the delays. I read on CBJ that they are shooting for no longer than 10-15 minutes max during peak hours, and trying for lower. I think around 1:00pm you'd probably be looking at around 10 minutes or so, is my guess.

Found this little nugget at the end of a Sun-Times story:

The People Mover has been facing “interim closures” during construction, and city officials say they “expect to make significant progress on the modernization this summer and to reach substantial completion by September 2019.”

What happened to completion this year? First I've heard of it. How is this so difficult? What the £^%& is "substantial completion"? Are we really going to function with shuttle bus "service" for 15 months (or more)? Is it just me, or has this now reached point-'n-laugh status?

https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/another-ohare-deal-sees-costs-soar-thanks-to-city-halls-no-bid-add-ons/

chidino wrote:

What happened to completion this year? First I've heard of it. How is this so difficult? What the £^%& is "substantial completion"? Are we really going to function with shuttle bus "service" for 15 months (or more)? Is it just me, or has this now reached point-'n-laugh status?

What surprises me is the almost total lack of information on what is essentially a public works project. It seems that there is no one in the city who fills the role of spokesman for the project and apparently no news outlet curious enough about it to actually dig deeper and present even a little peak behind the curtain. Perhaps the general public is not that interested -as opposed to what I suppose is a minority: the readers/writers here who are intensely interested.

Substantial Completion is a construction term meaning essentially complete and operating. There would still be punch list stuff to complete which could take months after that. When it is completely done, it is called Final Acceptance.

yeogeo wrote:

chidino wrote:

What happened to completion this year? First I've heard of it. How is this so difficult? What the £^%& is "substantial completion"? Are we really going to function with shuttle bus "service" for 15 months (or more)? Is it just me, or has this now reached point-'n-laugh status?

What surprises me is the almost total lack of information on what is essentially a public works project. It seems that there is no one in the city who fills the role of spokesman for the project and apparently no news outlet curious enough about it to actually dig deeper and present even a little peak behind the curtain. Perhaps the general public is not that interested -as opposed to what I suppose is a minority: the readers/writers here who are intensely interested.

And we still don't even know what exactly this ATS rehab project entails. All I have heard is they are replacing the cars and upgrading the control system; why in the heck will that take until September of 2019 to complete when they've been working on it for almost six months now? If they were physically tearing down the system (i.e, removing the existing tracks and replacing them), I could understand, but it doesn't sound like they are doing that.

And what about the actual CONRAC facility, when will that open?

This is a joke, and it is an ominous prelude of things to come when the meat of O'Hare 21 gets underway. Sad, Chicago deserves better......

United787 wrote:

Substantial Completion is a construction term meaning essentially complete and operating. There would still be punch list stuff to complete which could take months after that. When it is completely done, it is called Final Acceptance.

Is it defined the same way in City-of-Chicagoese? I know it's a formal planning and engineering milestone, and if that term were coming from folks actually building the thing I'd feel better. But the quote was unattributed, and Herguth seems to have talked only to City Hall: the same people who can't figure out (still) the name of the new car rental facility. Defined in Chicagoese, "substantial completion" could mean 85% done but non-operable; "Hey, it's substantially complete, if you get what I'm sayin'..."

I’ve been a proud Chicagoan for 46 years now and this is truly embarrassing! The most annoying part is the lack of information. Not to mention the underwhelming graphics for the Terminal expansion. Has there been any publicly realeased drawings of any of the new terminals? Not to mention the poorly identiy gates for the terminals. How come there are still questions about whether or not all alliance partners will be at T1 and T2? I love this city and this airport but it could be so much better if not for the incompetence. Don’t get me wrong either, I’m the first to defend ORD when people criticize it, especially for connections, but this is really hard to defend!

Planeboy17 wrote:

I’ve been a proud Chicagoan for 46 years now and this is truly embarrassing! The most annoying part is the lack of information. Not to mention the underwhelming graphics for the Terminal expansion. Has there been any publicly realeased drawings of any of the new terminals?

It hasn't been designed yet. In June the city launched an architecture competition to design the new terminal - http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/ ... -for-ohare

I'd say we are a good while away from having any shiny renderings.

kngkyle wrote:

Planeboy17 wrote:

I’ve been a proud Chicagoan for 46 years now and this is truly embarrassing! The most annoying part is the lack of information. Not to mention the underwhelming graphics for the Terminal expansion. Has there been any publicly realeased drawings of any of the new terminals?

It hasn't been designed yet. In June the city launched an architecture competition to design the new terminal - http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/ ... -for-ohare

I'd say we are a good while away from having any shiny renderings.

In addition, the Central Basin (located at the intersection of 10L/28R and old 15/33) has to be removed first (and the South Basin expanded, for drainage), and then the tunnel dug to the satellites before the construction of the two satellites can begin. The earliest anybody seems to see above-ground construction happening is late 2019, but more likely 2020.

ADrum23 wrote:

kngkyle wrote:

Planeboy17 wrote:

I’ve been a proud Chicagoan for 46 years now and this is truly embarrassing! The most annoying part is the lack of information. Not to mention the underwhelming graphics for the Terminal expansion. Has there been any publicly realeased drawings of any of the new terminals?

It hasn't been designed yet. In June the city launched an architecture competition to design the new terminal - http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/ ... -for-ohare

I'd say we are a good while away from having any shiny renderings.

Not even the T5 expansion, which I thought was separate from the rest of the development?

Separate from the rest of the development yes, but not really a new design. It'll just be a continuation of the existing design of T5 as far as I am aware.

kngkyle wrote:

Planeboy17 wrote:

I’ve been a proud Chicagoan for 46 years now and this is truly embarrassing! The most annoying part is the lack of information. Not to mention the underwhelming graphics for the Terminal expansion. Has there been any publicly realeased drawings of any of the new terminals?

It hasn't been designed yet. In June the city launched an architecture competition to design the new terminal - http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/ ... -for-ohare

I'd say we are a good while away from having any shiny renderings.

Not even the T5 expansion, which I thought was separate from the rest of the development?

kngkyle wrote:

ADrum23 wrote:

kngkyle wrote:

It hasn't been designed yet. In June the city launched an architecture competition to design the new terminal - http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/ ... -for-ohare

I'd say we are a good while away from having any shiny renderings.

Not even the T5 expansion, which I thought was separate from the rest of the development?

Separate from the rest of the development yes, but not really a new design. It'll just be a continuation of the existing design of T5 as far as I am aware.

And why hasn't that begun construction yet? It seems like they could at least go ahead and get going on that so they can get DL out of T2.

ADrum23 wrote:

And why hasn't that begun construction yet? It seems like they could at least go ahead and get going on that so they can get DL out of T2.

Confusingly, the T5 work will take place in two phases. The first is the already-announced 9-gate expansion, which was just the city's first "down payment" on improving and expanding int'l service, announced prior to O'Hare 21's formalization. It is just an expansion of T5 and does not involve any major reconfigurations or reassignments (other than F6, who already moved.)

But there are virtually no amenities in T5, except for the new food court (or lounge access). That reconstruction, which will bring T5 fully into being a "mixed" terminal with DL resident, will not be built until after the OGT is completed, per the terms of the plan -- right now, 2026. DL is scheduled to remain with T2 (or the new satellites after T2 demo) until after OGT is completed and T5 is worked on again.

(It may make sense to move DL now and get it started, but if we think AA and UA are paying for this so that Delta has new facilities years before them, we are smoking some very reality-altering stuff. Big difference between letting LCCs do it and allowing their largest competitor to gain a foothold.)

kngkyle wrote:

Planeboy17 wrote:

I’ve been a proud Chicagoan for 46 years now and this is truly embarrassing! The most annoying part is the lack of information. Not to mention the underwhelming graphics for the Terminal expansion. Has there been any publicly realeased drawings of any of the new terminals?

It hasn't been designed yet. In June the city launched an architecture competition to design the new terminal - http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/ ... -for-ohare

I'd say we are a good while away from having any shiny renderings.

No doubt to the lowest bidder or the one with the most campaign contributions to City Council members.

ADrum23 wrote:

kngkyle wrote:

ADrum23 wrote:

Not even the T5 expansion, which I thought was separate from the rest of the development?

Separate from the rest of the development yes, but not really a new design. It'll just be a continuation of the existing design of T5 as far as I am aware.

And why hasn't that begun construction yet? It seems like they could at least go ahead and get going on that so they can get DL out of T2.

A Very long way to go. The Police Dept and Distribution facilities on Old Cargo Road still have not even moved out yet. Then those buildings have to be demolished to make way for the extension of T5. Add to that, the fact that Ginger Evans is gone and a new Director is taking over which will surely only complicate things more, as Ms Rhee will undoubtedly have a different agenda/vision in store. I doubt the expansion of T5 is completed any earlier then 2021, seeing as how it is already mid 2018.

chidino wrote:

ADrum23 wrote:

Not even the T5 expansion, which I thought was separate from the rest of the development?

Confusingly, the T5 work will take place in two phases. The first is the already-announced 9-gate expansion, which was just the city's first "down payment" on improving and expanding int'l service, announced prior to O'Hare 21's formalization. It is just an expansion of T5 and does not involve any major reconfigurations or reassignments (other than F6, who already moved.)

But there are virtually no amenities in T5, except for the new food court (or lounge access). That reconstruction, which will bring T5 fully into being a "mixed" terminal with DL resident, will not be built until after the OGT is completed, per the terms of the plan -- right now, 2026. DL is scheduled to remain with T2 (or the new satellites after T2 demo) until after OGT is completed and T5 is worked on again.

Not sure about that, as DL will have to move out of Terminal 2 in order for the construction to begin, which will include demolition of E & F. As it stands now, T5 will be the first phase of the $8.5 billion upgrade at O'Hare International Airport. That will allow DL, NK and B6 to move to T5 which allow for construction on the major components of T2 and T3.

ADrum23 wrote:

yeogeo wrote:

chidino wrote:

What happened to completion this year? First I've heard of it. How is this so difficult? What the £^%& is "substantial completion"? Are we really going to function with shuttle bus "service" for 15 months (or more)? Is it just me, or has this now reached point-'n-laugh status?

What surprises me is the almost total lack of information on what is essentially a public works project. It seems that there is no one in the city who fills the role of spokesman for the project and apparently no news outlet curious enough about it to actually dig deeper and present even a little peak behind the curtain. Perhaps the general public is not that interested -as opposed to what I suppose is a minority: the readers/writers here who are intensely interested.

And we still don't even know what exactly this ATS rehab project entails. All I have heard is they are replacing the cars and upgrading the control system; why in the heck will that take until September of 2019 to complete when they've been working on it for almost six months now? If they were physically tearing down the system (i.e, removing the existing tracks and replacing them), I could understand, but it doesn't sound like they are doing that.

And what about the actual CONRAC facility, when will that open?

This is a joke, and it is an ominous prelude of things to come when the meat of O'Hare 21 gets underway. Sad, Chicago deserves better......

Yup, only in Chicago, can there be a new rental car facility with no ATS service to it and thus shuttle buses are needed to get people to and from it. Which ironically was the whole reason of building a central rental car facility in the first place...to eliminate the shuttle buses!! Total radio silence on this whole thing...and this is just the ATS! Wait until the 8.5 billion (I laugh everytime I hear that figure btw) is in full swing.

piedmontf284000 wrote:

Not sure about that, as DL will have to move out of Terminal 2 in order for the construction to begin, which will include demolition of E & F. As it stands now, T5 will be the first phase of the $8.5 billion upgrade at O'Hare International Airport. That will allow DL, NK and B6 to move to T5 which allow for construction on the major components of T2 and T3.

You are making the classic mistake of thinking logically. Sorry, no dice.

Listen, folks, nobody's moving anywhere, short-term: T2 occupants will move to the new satellites, period. Everybody stays put until after the completion of the OGT. The Terminal 5 Repurposing and Core Expansion section of the O'hare 21 plan specifically states "...airlines to be relocated to T5 upon completion of the OGT and OGC" (emphasis mine).

Again, why exactly would AA and UA pay 85% of the costs to give DL a five-year head start on new facilities and an identity?

ADrum23 wrote:

kngkyle wrote:

ADrum23 wrote:

Not even the T5 expansion, which I thought was separate from the rest of the development?

Separate from the rest of the development yes, but not really a new design. It'll just be a continuation of the existing design of T5 as far as I am aware.

And why hasn't that begun construction yet? It seems like they could at least go ahead and get going on that so they can get DL out of T2.

I think this was covered earlier in the thread by someone in the know. They want to wait until after the busy summer season is over. I don’t think there is any hard date but I would guess nothing gets done until November.

chidino wrote:

ADrum23 wrote:

And why hasn't that begun construction yet? It seems like they could at least go ahead and get going on that so they can get DL out of T2.

Confusingly, the T5 work will take place in two phases. The first is the already-announced 9-gate expansion, which was just the city's first "down payment" on improving and expanding int'l service, announced prior to O'Hare 21's formalization. It is just an expansion of T5 and does not involve any major reconfigurations or reassignments (other than F6, who already moved.)

But there are virtually no amenities in T5, except for the new food court (or lounge access). That reconstruction, which will bring T5 fully into being a "mixed" terminal with DL resident, will not be built until after the OGT is completed, per the terms of the plan -- right now, 2026. DL is scheduled to remain with T2 (or the new satellites after T2 demo) until after OGT is completed and T5 is worked on again.

(It may make sense to move DL now and get it started, but if we think AA and UA are paying for this so that Delta has new facilities years before them, we are smoking some very reality-altering stuff. Big difference between letting LCCs do it and allowing their largest competitor to gain a foothold.)

But the T5 is common use so why does it matter if DL moves? It's not like they are going to expand much when they move, maybe LAX/RDU/BOS, etc, but that would be it. Plus, they won't have a Sky Club for a few years if they move to the satellite concourses on an interim basis, not gonna go over well with their FF base (presumably, a new and bigger Sky Club will be constructed in the T5 expansion).

First O'Hare Interjet photo in the Airliners' database, an A320neo


This newly downloaded photograph...


...had me looking up the ORD Airport Watch:

"Airport Watch volunteers provide the same sort of security as the Neighborhood Watch Program. Members monitor aviation procedures, the condition of the fencing, wildlife activity, parking lots, suspicious behaviors and flying debris (FOD) while they enjoy their favorite pastime."

Had never seen a listing of approved (and prohibited) O'Hare spotting sites before.Thought it might be of interest to some:
http://www.ordairportwatch.org/Map.html

https://www.flychicago.com/sites/ohare2 ... fault.aspx

I'm sure this was posted before.

I think everyone needs to chill out a little bit. The ink on the O’Hare 21 plan has just dried. Although they have a basic master plan approved, that is far from finished architectural drawings. So you all have some patience:

1. First they need to hire the architectural teams. I am guessing the work will be divided into a couple of different teams. IMHO, T5 will one firm and the T2 etc. will be another and maybe even more. Although T5 has been “in the works” to some degree, I haven’t seen any indication they have had an architect has been working on design drawings… maybe planning. So expect another couple of weeks before they announce the teams.
2. The architectural teams will need to go through their design process. I would expect 9-15 months but hopefully they can release certain construction document packages in pieces so they can begin construction earlier.
3. And then construction starts…

To PIEDMONTF284000 (I didn’t want to quote your whole post)

Architectural firms aren’t usually decided on low bid. The City tends to have a lot more subjectivity when it comes to hiring designers, finding the right firm for the job. Rahm will want this to be special so I have high expectations here.

Have you seen the forms and background information required when bidding and contracting with the City? As a small business owner, I won’t do it anymore, too much paperwork for a small business, so much of it to eliminate corruption. Corruption happens but it isn’t easy in this City anymore. There are too many hoops to jump through and I have seen so many people goto jail. I am fairly confident that the firms hired for this work won’t be hired because of connections, contributions, bribing etc. Hired to fulfill MBE and WBE requirements, yes, but that is legal, like it or not.

The facilities east of T5 (south of Old Cargo Rd) are already gone. Not the ones north of the road but there is plenty of vacant land to start most of the construction, if they had a design.

Why such pessimism? The OMP is almost finished and that was no small feat…

That said, I agree that the lack of transparency with the City surrounding O’Hare is frustrating: The entire OMP project, as large as it was, yielded very little press releases of what actually was happening. For the new AA L stinger gates, all we got was an announcement starting construction and an announcement for the opening. Nothing in between and never a single rendering. We had no idea what it was going to look like until it was done.

In my experience, public entities in general are notoriously cautious about releasing information to the public. They never want to give more information than they need to in fear of opening the door to criticism. But Chicago is in another class when it comes to this. Neighborhood projects are better at this because they have to answer to neighborhood groups but there is no neighborhood group for ORD, there is no public entity that is watching ORD. So they give out very little. I don’t think it is generally because of nefarious reasons but more they don’t want obstacles thrown into progress. Like it or not, this is how the sausage is made in Chicago and why things get done a lot faster with less NIMBYISM that you might get in California and the East Coast. Just because we aren’t privy to the details doesn’t mean that there aren’t qualified people making this all happen. They just don’t want the public’s opinion (design by committee) if they can get away with it. More information from the City comes out now through the media filing freedom of information requests than through actual City press releases.

United787 wrote:

I think everyone needs to chill out a little bit. The ink on the O’Hare 21 plan has just dried. Although they have a basic master plan approved, that is far from finished architectural drawings. So you all have some patience:

1. First they need to hire the architectural teams. I am guessing the work will be divided into a couple of different teams. IMHO, T5 will one firm and the T2 etc. will be another and maybe even more. Although T5 has been “in the works” to some degree, I haven’t seen any indication they have had an architect has been working on design drawings… maybe planning. So expect another couple of weeks before they announce the teams.
2. The architectural teams will need to go through their design process. I would expect 9-15 months but hopefully they can release certain construction document packages in pieces so they can begin construction earlier.
3. And then construction starts…

To PIEDMONTF284000 (I didn’t want to quote your whole post)

Architectural firms aren’t usually decided on low bid. The City tends to have a lot more subjectivity when it comes to hiring designers, finding the right firm for the job. Rahm will want this to be special so I have high expectations here.

Have you seen the forms and background information required when bidding and contracting with the City? As a small business owner, I won’t do it anymore, too much paperwork for a small business, so much of it to eliminate corruption. Corruption happens but it isn’t easy in this City anymore. There are too many hoops to jump through and I have seen so many people goto jail. I am fairly confident that the firms hired for this work won’t be hired because of connections, contributions, bribing etc. Hired to fulfill MBE and WBE requirements, yes, but that is legal, like it or not.

The facilities east of T5 (south of Old Cargo Rd) are already gone. Not the ones north of the road but there is plenty of vacant land to start most of the construction, if they had a design.

Why such pessimism? The OMP is almost finished and that was no small feat…

That said, I agree that the lack of transparency with the City surrounding O’Hare is frustrating: The entire OMP project, as large as it was, yielded very little press releases of what actually was happening. For the new AA L stinger gates, all we got was an announcement starting construction and an announcement for the opening. Nothing in between and never a single rendering. We had no idea what it was going to look like until it was done.

In my experience, public entities in general are notoriously cautious about releasing information to the public. They never want to give more information than they need to in fear of opening the door to criticism. But Chicago is in another class when it comes to this. Neighborhood projects are better at this because they have to answer to neighborhood groups but there is no neighborhood group for ORD, there is no public entity that is watching ORD. So they give out very little. I don’t think it is generally because of nefarious reasons but more they don’t want obstacles thrown into progress. Like it or not, this is how the sausage is made in Chicago and why things get done a lot faster with less NIMBYISM that you might get in California and the East Coast. Just because we aren’t privy to the details doesn’t mean that there aren’t qualified people making this all happen. They just don’t want the public’s opinion (design by committee) if they can get away with it. More information from the City comes out now through the media filing freedom of information requests than through actual City press releases.

Nailed it on the head.

One of the reasons you see little press coverage is because there has been a sort of a clamp down on information. Nothing hardcore, just enough to prevent people like GlobalCabatoge on here spilling things weeks before they happen...

It's also why I am hesitant to share certain things and have to watch what I post.

Hearing that United is dropping ORD - MHT

http://www.wmur.com/article/united-airl ... e/22011531

United787 wrote:

I think everyone needs to chill out a little bit...
In my experience, public entities in general are notoriously cautious about releasing information to the public. They never want to give more information than they need to in fear of opening the door to criticism. But Chicago is in another class when it comes to this.

Good post, United787! You may need to re-post every so often during the years ahead as this project continues (and I'm including myself in the impatient group that needs the reminder).

yeogeo wrote:

United787 wrote:

I think everyone needs to chill out a little bit...
In my experience, public entities in general are notoriously cautious about releasing information to the public. They never want to give more information than they need to in fear of opening the door to criticism. But Chicago is in another class when it comes to this.

Good post, United787! You may need to re-post every so often during the years ahead as this project continues (and I'm including myself in the impatient group that needs the reminder).

I count myself in that group too. I think part of the problem is we are so desperate to see something because ORD hasn't had a major terminal expansion/reconstruction in over 25 years, and we've all read how ORD is falling behind because of the lack of investment compared to its peers in the country (and the world), so we want to see something get going.

I agree, we are all anxious and excited to get this thing going... but I would argue against ORD lacking investment. Yes in terminals, but the runway reconfiguration (the OMP), has been the single largest airport project in the US since DEN and that airport opened 20 years ago. The $8 billion price tag for the OMP is almost double what DEN cost and is more comparable to the clean sheet airports like Istanbul, Mexico City, Dubai etc. but with 6 parallel runways!

United787 wrote:

I agree, we are all anxious and excited to get this thing going... but I would argue against ORD lacking investment. Yes in terminals, but the runway reconfiguration (the OMP), has been the single largest airport project in the US since DEN and that airport opened 20 years ago. The $8 billion price tag for the OMP is almost double what DEN cost and is more comparable to the clean sheet airports like Istanbul, Mexico City, Dubai etc. but with 6 parallel runways!

I meant lacking investment in the things the general public sees, like terminals, parking garages, etc. Yes, O'Hare has had big investments in things behind the scenes, like runways and cargo ops, but passenger terminals and other passenger amenities at the airport have had virtually no investment for the better part of 25+ years, and it has cost ORD dearly. I believe the new Concourse L stinger gates and the forthcoming CONRAC/ATS rehab will be the first major improvement passengers have actually scene in over two decades.

ADrum23 wrote:

United787 wrote:

I agree, we are all anxious and excited to get this thing going... but I would argue against ORD lacking investment. Yes in terminals, but the runway reconfiguration (the OMP), has been the single largest airport project in the US since DEN and that airport opened 20 years ago. The $8 billion price tag for the OMP is almost double what DEN cost and is more comparable to the clean sheet airports like Istanbul, Mexico City, Dubai etc. but with 6 parallel runways!

I meant lacking investment in the things the general public sees, like terminals, parking garages, etc. Yes, O'Hare has had big investments in things behind the scenes, like runways and cargo ops, but passenger terminals and other passenger amenities at the airport have had virtually no investment for the better part of 25+ years, and it has cost ORD dearly. I believe the new Concourse L stinger gates and the forthcoming CONRAC/ATS rehab will be the first major improvement passengers have actually scene in over two decades.

Not saying it was enough but there have been several substantial projects. Not too long ago, probably 100 UX flights per day used air stairs and no jet bridges. They completely redid E and F with a dozen new jetbridges so no more pax have to step outside.

There was also the facade project that completely overhauled T2 and T3 with significantly more space, easier passenger flow, nonstop glass allowing sunlight and tons of elevators.

Also, all bathrooms in T1 to T3 were completely overhauled and T1 had all ceiling and lighting panels completely redone. Virtually all seating has been replaced too from the old gray ones.

These were not small projects.

They’ve also added several good eating options and completely gutted the central area of T5. I think it’s really nice and they did the absolute best they could with the limited space.