ADrum23
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:41 pm

Planeboy17 wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
ZBA2CGX wrote:
DuPage county is pushing the City for the Western Terminal.

http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/ ... n-terminal


It will come, they just got to be patient. I have a feeling phase 2 will be needed shortly after the first phase is completed.

I don’t believe the important part for the “ western terminal” is when phase 2 is necessary, it’s who will pay for it? I seriously doubt it will be UA or AA after phase 1 is built and if not them, then who? NK, F9, DL, B6? Maybe NK but I seriously doubt any other airline would be willing to anchor the terminal by themselves. Maybe all of them together could go into it. Has there been any conclusive evidence of a train to access the other terminals? I can’t remember now, but without that the airlines definitely won’t move over there. I still think the terminal is just a semi pipe dream to placate the people in the western suburbs, but I’ve certainly been wrong before.


Not quite sure what you mean by your first sentence, but there isn't going to be an western terminal per say. Over time, the UA/AA terminal space (basically everything sans T5) will be reconfigured in a layout similar to ATL, with satellite concourses from east to west connected via a tunnel and a APM. The genesis of this will begin with the upcoming demolition/reconstruction of the existing T2 into the "global terminal", and the first two satellite concourses will be built west of it. The tunnel will be dug and moving walkways installed, but the people mover will not be installed until the third satellite concourse is built. They are building a western parking/screening facility for airport employees in Phase 1, but it will not be expanded for passengers until the next phase.

Once pax traffic hits 100,000,000 (which they are predicting it could happen by the time the original project is done), Satellite 3 will be constructed and the APM will be installed (but why they aren't installing it in the original phase is beyond me, it seems like it will be a fairly long walk from S2 to the global terminal). The APM would then be connected to the western parking/screening facility and be expanded for passengers. Also somewhere in here the existing United concourses A and B would be reconstructed to better match the satellite concourses and T3 will be demolished and replaced with a L shaped concourse.

So no, there won't be a separate western terminal like originally planned, ORD will simply evolve into an ATL layout. UA/AA won't have to worry about paying for a facility they won't use. I just am baffled as to why the western parking/screening facility isn't being built for pax and the APM isn't being installed right away.
 
chicawgo
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:15 am

Another record month for June. Pax up 4.6% and movements up 3.73%. ORD should hit well over 80 mil this year.
 
ORDfan
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:21 pm

chicawgo wrote:
Another record month for June. Pax up 4.6% and movements up 3.73%. ORD should hit well over 80 mil this year.


Woah! Not sure what's more impressive, the pax data or the fact that CDA published this only 2 weeks after the May data! :lol:

But very glad to see, particularly on the international front: maintaining that nearly 10% year-over-year growth is super cool.

On a side note, while browsing the FlyChicago website, the city posted the latest issue of Air Chicago - more of tourist magazine (very solid quality, btw), but a few pages dedicated to goings-on at the airports. I'd really like to see a FlyChicago summer edition Aviation Newsletter as well, if anyone from the CDA is reading this....

http://online.publicationprinters.com/h ... 7b938656b3
 
wnflyguy
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:23 pm

Rumors have new ULCC SWOOP coming to in MDW in 2019.

Flyguy
my post are my opinion only and not those of southwest airlines and or airtran airlines.
 
sircygnus
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Thu Aug 02, 2018 6:54 pm

Sort of random, but does anybody in the know have information as to the purpose of the earth work going on near the old approach to 32R? (Near the B Pad) I suppose it could be work related to decommisioning of that runway, and it seems a bit far to be associated with the activities for 9C-27C
 
ADrum23
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:49 pm

So UA added IAD-TLV, and ORD still doesn't have a TLV flight.

What is going on?
 
CHI787ORD
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:42 pm

Seems to me it will be more likely that LY flies ORD-TLV than UA at this point.

I believe LY was waiting for more 787s?
 
airborneX0101
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:41 pm

Planeboy17 wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
ZBA2CGX wrote:
DuPage county is pushing the City for the Western Terminal.

http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/ ... n-terminal


It will come, they just got to be patient. I have a feeling phase 2 will be needed shortly after the first phase is completed.

I don’t believe the important part for the “ western terminal” is when phase 2 is necessary, it’s who will pay for it? I seriously doubt it will be UA or AA after phase 1 is built and if not them, then who? NK, F9, DL, B6? Maybe NK but I seriously doubt any other airline would be willing to anchor the terminal by themselves. Maybe all of them together could go into it. Has there been any conclusive evidence of a train to access the other terminals? I can’t remember now, but without that the airlines definitely won’t move over there. I still think the terminal is just a semi pipe dream to placate the people in the western suburbs, but I’ve certainly been wrong before.


I don't think a western terminal is coming in the near future, unless DL and its Skyteam members decide on a massive increase in their presence at O'Hare in which they would operate out of all of T5 leaving the LCCs no other choice then to anchor a new western terminal; however, I don't see this happening as DL seems to be content with their current operations at O'Hare. Also, like Planeboy17 said, I doubt any one of the LCCs would be willing to anchor a terminal by themselves and even if all LCCs anchored the terminal, I doubt they'd be willing to foot the bill of a new terminal unless they too are looking to increase their presence at O'Hare.
 
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yeogeo
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:25 pm

chicawgo wrote:
Another record month for June. Pax up 4.6% and movements up 3.73%. ORD should hit well over 80 mil this year.


A little more detail from CAPA:
Image
 
ORD Boy 2
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:36 pm

CHI787ORD wrote:
Seems to me it will be more likely that LY flies ORD-TLV than UA at this point.

I believe LY was waiting for more 787s?


As I have been an advocate for ORD-TLV for years and still will be on this board, the Consul General of Israel posted "We are hopeful Chicago will be the next non-stop flight to Israel. Who's with us?" on his Facebook and LinkedIn pages. His office is a short walk from UA hq. I wouldn't necessarily say LY is the likelier carrier at this point
 
ORDfan
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Sat Aug 04, 2018 4:39 pm

Drove by the CONRAC today. Looks nearly complete: all the landscaping was in, traffic lanes painted, and only a few man-lifts and some dumpsters parked on the outside.

The ATS track looks like it might need a little more work, but just a random guess. It's all painted but missing some supports closer to the building, as far as I can tell. Anyone know if they will open this before the ATS extension is completed? Aside from that, it looks ready to go.
 
muralir
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Sun Aug 05, 2018 2:53 pm

chicawgo wrote:
Another record month for June. Pax up 4.6% and movements up 3.73%. ORD should hit well over 80 mil this year.


Looking at flight operations, ORD's numbers are up 4.25% yoy. In contrast, ATL's numbers (from http://www.atl.com/wp-content/uploads/2 ... e-2018.pdf) are up 1%. According to wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_b ... _movements), in 2017 ATL had 883,680 movements vs ORD's 860,049.

If current respective growth rates are maintained for the rest of the year, ATL should be at 883,680 x 1.01 = 892,517 while ORD should be at 860,049 x 1.0425 = 896,601.

IOW, it seems that we're on track to reclaim the world's busiest airport title this year!
 
ADrum23
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Sun Aug 05, 2018 3:34 pm

muralir wrote:
chicawgo wrote:
Another record month for June. Pax up 4.6% and movements up 3.73%. ORD should hit well over 80 mil this year.


Looking at flight operations, ORD's numbers are up 4.25% yoy. In contrast, ATL's numbers (from http://www.atl.com/wp-content/uploads/2 ... e-2018.pdf) are up 1%. According to wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_b ... _movements), in 2017 ATL had 883,680 movements vs ORD's 860,049.

If current respective growth rates are maintained for the rest of the year, ATL should be at 883,680 x 1.01 = 892,517 while ORD should be at 860,049 x 1.0425 = 896,601.

IOW, it seems that we're on track to reclaim the world's busiest airport title this year!


And when the O'Hare 21 project gets underway, ORD will close the gap as far as pax traffic as well.
 
timberwolf24
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Sun Aug 05, 2018 3:57 pm

Anyone know when T5 expansion is to start? Also any roumors about new service to ORD or MDW for 2019?
Living in LA, ORD/MDW will always be home!
 
chicawgo
Posts: 394
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:48 pm

muralir wrote:
chicawgo wrote:
Another record month for June. Pax up 4.6% and movements up 3.73%. ORD should hit well over 80 mil this year.


Looking at flight operations, ORD's numbers are up 4.25% yoy. In contrast, ATL's numbers (from http://www.atl.com/wp-content/uploads/2 ... e-2018.pdf) are up 1%. According to wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_b ... _movements), in 2017 ATL had 883,680 movements vs ORD's 860,049.

If current respective growth rates are maintained for the rest of the year, ATL should be at 883,680 x 1.01 = 892,517 while ORD should be at 860,049 x 1.0425 = 896,601.

IOW, it seems that we're on track to reclaim the world's busiest airport title this year!


Great calculation! I mention every month about the rise in ops but no one ever seems to care. ORD had been dropping as airlines upgauged and went well below ATL at one point. That’s amazing that it looks like ORD could retake the title this year!! And glad we’re not increasing ops at the expense of downgauging either!
 
muralir
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:07 pm

chicawgo wrote:
muralir wrote:
chicawgo wrote:
Another record month for June. Pax up 4.6% and movements up 3.73%. ORD should hit well over 80 mil this year.


Looking at flight operations, ORD's numbers are up 4.25% yoy. In contrast, ATL's numbers (from http://www.atl.com/wp-content/uploads/2 ... e-2018.pdf) are up 1%. According to wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_b ... _movements), in 2017 ATL had 883,680 movements vs ORD's 860,049.

If current respective growth rates are maintained for the rest of the year, ATL should be at 883,680 x 1.01 = 892,517 while ORD should be at 860,049 x 1.0425 = 896,601.

IOW, it seems that we're on track to reclaim the world's busiest airport title this year!


Great calculation! I mention every month about the rise in ops but no one ever seems to care. ORD had been dropping as airlines upgauged and went well below ATL at one point. That’s amazing that it looks like ORD could retake the title this year!! And glad we’re not increasing ops at the expense of downgauging either!


It'll be a photo finish for sure (the projections show ORD would be up by just 0.5% by year-end), and anything can happen (snowstorms leading to mass cancellations for a few days, etc), but it does seem that we're on the right track. And with each passing month, it'll be fun to watch the horse race. Perhaps we should make it a separate thread so that the ATL boosters can join in with their thoughts :-)
 
jplatts
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:15 pm

timberwolf24 wrote:
Anyone know when T5 expansion is to start? Also any roumors about new service to ORD or MDW for 2019?


While WN already has nonstop service out of MDW to most of its domestic destinations, WN could add MDW-ELP and MDW-RIC nonstop service.
 
chidino
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:59 pm

sircygnus wrote:
Sort of random, but does anybody in the know have information as to the purpose of the earth work going on near the old approach to 32R? (Near the B Pad) I suppose it could be work related to decommisioning of that runway, and it seems a bit far to be associated with the activities for 9C-27C


Thank you for the update... That must be Project No. 1 of O'Hare 21 and we can say it has BEGUN! The earth-moving you're seeing is the removal of the Central (drainage) Basin, accompanied by moving of drains and the like, to an expansion of the South Basin (east of the South Cargo Area, just west of the bottom of 4R) at an estimated cost of $149,682,000.
 
airstatdfw
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:17 am

chidino wrote:
sircygnus wrote:
Sort of random, but does anybody in the know have information as to the purpose of the earth work going on near the old approach to 32R? (Near the B Pad) I suppose it could be work related to decommisioning of that runway, and it seems a bit far to be associated with the activities for 9C-27C


Thank you for the update... That must be Project No. 1 of O'Hare 21 and we can say it has BEGUN! The earth-moving you're seeing is the removal of the Central (drainage) Basin, accompanied by moving of drains and the like, to an expansion of the South Basin (east of the South Cargo Area, just west of the bottom of 4R) at an estimated cost of $149,682,000.


The work going on by the old 32R Approach is for the new United employee parking. Their current parking will go away to make room for RWY 27C.
 
chidino
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:20 am

airstatdfw wrote:
chidino wrote:
sircygnus wrote:
Sort of random, but does anybody in the know have information as to the purpose of the earth work going on near the old approach to 32R? (Near the B Pad) I suppose it could be work related to decommisioning of that runway, and it seems a bit far to be associated with the activities for 9C-27C


Thank you for the update... That must be Project No. 1 of O'Hare 21 and we can say it has BEGUN! The earth-moving you're seeing is the removal of the Central (drainage) Basin, accompanied by moving of drains and the like, to an expansion of the South Basin (east of the South Cargo Area, just west of the bottom of 4R) at an estimated cost of $149,682,000.


The work going on by the old 32R Approach is for the new United employee parking. Their current parking will go away to make room for RWY 27C.


Damn. Sorry for the false alarm.
 
ZBA2CGX
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:11 pm

Does anyone have a phasing diagram for the work related to RWY 27C. I'm assuming it is a little early for a phasing diagram for O'hare 21.
Finally, is the existing terminal for the APM getting torn down because of RWY 27C?
 
sircygnus
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Mon Aug 06, 2018 3:13 pm

Thanks for the information.

I too am curious about the APM station. On one hand it isn’t much taller than the existing trackage that is already overflown at 27L, on the other hand it might explain why the APM will be down for so long when it looks substantially completed.
 
Freshside3
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Mon Aug 06, 2018 3:36 pm

ORD Boy 2 wrote:
CHI787ORD wrote:
Seems to me it will be more likely that LY flies ORD-TLV than UA at this point.

I believe LY was waiting for more 787s?


As I have been an advocate for ORD-TLV for years and still will be on this board, the Consul General of Israel posted "We are hopeful Chicago will be the next non-stop flight to Israel. Who's with us?" on his Facebook and LinkedIn pages. His office is a short walk from UA hq. I wouldn't necessarily say LY is the likelier carrier at this point

The short distance really doesn't mean much of anything. Greektown is not that far from Willis Tower, either, and UA has been absolutely "tone-deaf" on the need for ORD-ATH.

Most likely, the scenario would be LY getting ORD-TLV, AA getting ORD-ATH........and UA increasing IAD-TLV to daily.
 
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United787
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:00 pm

ZBA2CGX wrote:
Does anyone have a phasing diagram for the work related to RWY 27C. I'm assuming it is a little early for a phasing diagram for O'hare 21.
Finally, is the existing terminal for the APM getting torn down because of RWY 27C?


I don't have what you are looking for and I doubt anything like that exists in the public realm. The City has not shared that level of detail on anything for ORD. But, if you goto Google maps and turn off the 3D (upper left "hamburger" icon), you will see the most recent satellite view. From there you can see what sections of the runway they have built so far. It is being done piecemeal as they have access to a section, they build it...
 
Confuscius
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:20 pm

United787 wrote:
But, if you goto Google maps and turn off the 3D (upper left "hamburger" icon), you will see the most recent satellite view. From there you can see what sections of the runway they have built so far. It is being done piecemeal as they have access to a section, they build it...


Where will they relocate the VOR antenna? Looks like it's on the path of the new runway.
Ain't I a stinker?
 
ORDfan
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Tue Aug 07, 2018 3:09 pm

Looks like Spirit dropped MSP-ORD back in April. As the article says, it was done "quietly."

Sounds like the route has a little too much competition: I believe Frontier started operating it in April...huh coincidence?

https://bringmethenews.com/minnesota-li ... months-ago
 
drdisque
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Tue Aug 07, 2018 3:18 pm

Between WN, UA, DL (flying from both MSP and ORD), and AA and the short stage length, fares on MSP-CHI are very low even without ULCC's in the market. Interestingly this is the route that UA launched Basic Economy on. NK could at least connect passengers over ORD to unique destinations not served by NK through MSP. F9, I guess can, although I think there are far fewer opportunities. I doubt F9 will stay long on the route either.
 
Planeboy17
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Tue Aug 07, 2018 3:28 pm

drdisque wrote:
Between WN, UA, DL (flying from both MSP and ORD), and AA and the short stage length, fares on MSP-CHI are very low even without ULCC's in the market. Interestingly this is the route that UA launched Basic Economy on. NK could at least connect passengers over ORD to unique destinations not served by NK through MSP. F9, I guess can, although I think there are far fewer opportunities. I doubt F9 will stay long on the route either.

I think you meant to write (operating from both MDW and ORD). I’m not familiar with WN schedules but the other 3 operate around 7 flights a day usually all mainline. I think DL does around 7 as well to MDW but are mostly or all E75s.
 
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United787
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Tue Aug 07, 2018 3:32 pm

United787 wrote:
But, if you goto Google maps and turn off the 3D (upper left "hamburger" icon), you will see the most recent satellite view.


Update: Google has changed how to change the satellite view. If you are seeing the 3D version of the satellite view, goto the "hamburger" icon drop down menu and click the "Globe".
 
_AA_777_MAN
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Wed Aug 08, 2018 4:42 pm

On Tuesday 08/07 Air Europa flew an A330-200 registration EC-JQQ, BUD-ORD-BUD on behalf of LOT. I guess LO needs some more 787s. While I was in WAW last month I saw SP-LRF a 788 sitting grounded without the #2 engine and a piece of the tail missing, not sure what happwned there.
 
AMollenhauer9
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Wed Aug 08, 2018 5:02 pm

ORDfan wrote:
Looks like Spirit dropped MSP-ORD back in April. As the article says, it was done "quietly."

Sounds like the route has a little too much competition: I believe Frontier started operating it in April...huh coincidence?

https://bringmethenews.com/minnesota-li ... months-ago


Frontier hasn't flown this route since early last year at least.
 
ckfred
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Wed Aug 08, 2018 5:05 pm

Some random thoughts.

Back before deregulation, the Christmas decorations at ORD pretty much consisted of wreaths on the clocks in the ticketing areas.

I seem to recall in the 1990s that UA had a lighted sleigh and reindeer hanging from the "rafters" in Concourse C. But, that was back when the concourses in T1 were wide open.

I live in DuPage County, and I don't feel the need for the City to build a terminal on the west side of the field, let alone western access. If the City puts parking for passengers on the west side, how does that area get connected to the terminals? I have yet to see any proposal about running the ATS either around the north side of the field from the new rental car garage or running a tunnel under the field to the west side. Building a terminal become even more problematic, in that besides connecting passengers and possibly crews (who probably don't want to reclear security), you have to figure out how to get connecting bags and freight between the western terminal and the other terminals.

It seems to me that DuPage County wants the City to foot the bill for access and a western terminal, so that DuPage County can reap the rewards of development. Democratic Chicago is not about to do something nice for Republican DuPage County. The joke used to be that when Rich Daley was Mayor of Chicago, he had no entries in his personal phone book with with DuPage area code, 630, because had nothing to do with suburban Republicans.
 
ORDfan
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:14 pm

AMollenhauer9 wrote:
ORDfan wrote:
Looks like Spirit dropped MSP-ORD back in April. As the article says, it was done "quietly."

Sounds like the route has a little too much competition: I believe Frontier started operating it in April...huh coincidence?

https://bringmethenews.com/minnesota-li ... months-ago


Frontier hasn't flown this route since early last year at least.


Hmm, you're right: it's not in the timetable anymore. Not sure why I thought that... I believed incorrectly :?
 
jakubz
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:34 pm

Confuscius wrote:
United787 wrote:
But, if you goto Google maps and turn off the 3D (upper left "hamburger" icon), you will see the most recent satellite view. From there you can see what sections of the runway they have built so far. It is being done piecemeal as they have access to a section, they build it...


Where will they relocate the VOR antenna? Looks like it's on the path of the new runway.


If the location on the old O'Hare Modernisation Plan documents are still valid, it will be East of 4R, Between 9R and 9C, and West of where 36 used to be. I think the current VOR Location is in the middle of where either the high-speed exit taxiway or the parallel taxiway will be.
KORD>RJAA>KORD day trip? Why not! The beauty of non-reving.
Yes, I use ICAO codes
Flown: PA-28, PA-38
Passenger on: A319/A320 737, 747-400, 757, 767, 777, 787-8/9
Finally got on a 747!

I work for United Airlines, but I don't speak for the company.
 
ADrum23
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:04 pm

ckfred wrote:
I live in DuPage County, and I don't feel the need for the City to build a terminal on the west side of the field, let alone western access. If the City puts parking for passengers on the west side, how does that area get connected to the terminals? I have yet to see any proposal about running the ATS either around the north side of the field from the new rental car garage or running a tunnel under the field to the west side. Building a terminal become even more problematic, in that besides connecting passengers and possibly crews (who probably don't want to reclear security), you have to figure out how to get connecting bags and freight between the western terminal and the other terminals.


Like I've said, there isn't going to be a "western terminal" per say, rather, the terminals (minus T5) will be reconfigured into an ATL-style concourse layout over time (long overdue if you ask me), with concourses going from east to west, like this.

Image

An APM will be installed once additional concourses beyond Satellite 2 are built, which they will begin work on once ORD hits 100,000,000 pax. This APM will go to the new Western Parking/Screening facility, which would be expanded to accommodate passengers. There will not be any issues with connecting pax and freight/bags because essentially, ORD will be consolidated into two terminals in this new layout, UA/AA and their partners in the main terminal and everyone else in what is today known as Terminal 5 (presumably, when this layout unfolds, O'Hare will rename the terminals accordingly). There will be little to no connecting between the terminals as a result.

As someone who lived in Kane County for many years, western access is long overdue. The east side of ORD incredibly congested and is not convenient for anyone living more than 10 minutes away from the airport.
 
Confuscius
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:28 pm

jakubz wrote:
If the location on the old O'Hare Modernisation Plan documents are still valid, it will be East of 4R, Between 9R and 9C, and West of where 36 used to be. I think the current VOR Location is in the middle of where either the high-speed exit taxiway or the parallel taxiway will be.


I believe you mean 4L because 4R would be in the vicinity of runways 10 and 28. You're right, looking at the map, I think the new location will be in the same area perhaps a bit south of where it is right now.
Ain't I a stinker?
 
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yeogeo
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:21 am

Anyone know if what we're seeing here the new de-icing pads take shape in this (relatively new) satellite view?
Image

Here's the same area on the FAA ORD diagram - the segment of taxiways in the sat view are the west-most sections of taxiways L, K & N, North of 10L/28R.
Image
 
chidino
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:09 pm

Quietly, on August 3rd, CDA extended the submission date for responses to the RFQ for O'Hare 21 from today (August 9) to 4pm August 28.

https://www.cityofchicago.org/content/dam/city/depts/dps/ContractAdministration/Addendum/2018Addendum/Spec428915Addendum1.pdf

No wonder there was no press event scheduled.
 
ORDfan
Topic Author
Posts: 563
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2007 6:02 am

Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:54 pm

ADrum23 wrote:
ckfred wrote:
I live in DuPage County, and I don't feel the need for the City to build a terminal on the west side of the field, let alone western access. If the City puts parking for passengers on the west side, how does that area get connected to the terminals? I have yet to see any proposal about running the ATS either around the north side of the field from the new rental car garage or running a tunnel under the field to the west side. Building a terminal become even more problematic, in that besides connecting passengers and possibly crews (who probably don't want to reclear security), you have to figure out how to get connecting bags and freight between the western terminal and the other terminals.


Like I've said, there isn't going to be a "western terminal" per say, rather, the terminals (minus T5) will be reconfigured into an ATL-style concourse layout over time (long overdue if you ask me), with concourses going from east to west, like this.

Image

An APM will be installed once additional concourses beyond Satellite 2 are built, which they will begin work on once ORD hits 100,000,000 pax. This APM will go to the new Western Parking/Screening facility, which would be expanded to accommodate passengers. There will not be any issues with connecting pax and freight/bags because essentially, ORD will be consolidated into two terminals in this new layout, UA/AA and their partners in the main terminal and everyone else in what is today known as Terminal 5 (presumably, when this layout unfolds, O'Hare will rename the terminals accordingly). There will be little to no connecting between the terminals as a result.

As someone who lived in Kane County for many years, western access is long overdue. The east side of ORD incredibly congested and is not convenient for anyone living more than 10 minutes away from the airport.


I know you've been a vocal advocate for the pier style approach, but I would like to note that the slide you reference is from the "30 year plan" NOT the ORD 21 official 10 year plan, which is the only part of the plan that is currently funded. I don't think I have to tell you that a lot can change between now and then. Even the original OMP has changed dramatically since it was first announced and over the course of it's lifetime.

Need I remind you, as late as 2015 or so, the "Master Plan" and World Gateway part of the OMP had the terminal layout (including the 'original' western terminal) as per below, which included a new Terminal 4 and Terminal 6 connected to Terminal 5.

Needless to say, you can see the differences vs ORD 21 a few years later quite clearly. I wouldn't hold your breadth or make proclamations on anything definitive for the two western-most terminals/satellites until the completion of ORD 21 or well after. It is all purely speculation.

Additionally, what I think is funny is that airlines stone-walled and dragged their feet on the terminal part of OMP for over a decade, because they didn't want to fund it and swore that traffic levels would never return. Well, again, today its a different story now isn't it, and they are clamoring for gates again.... :roll:

Image

Edit:

Here is another link that show's a good comparison of OMP vs ORD 21: slide 10

https://oharenoise.org/resources/presen ... -plan/file
 
jakubz
Posts: 144
Joined: Fri May 21, 2010 9:48 pm

Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:17 pm

Confuscius wrote:
jakubz wrote:
If the location on the old O'Hare Modernisation Plan documents are still valid, it will be East of 4R, Between 9R and 9C, and West of where 36 used to be. I think the current VOR Location is in the middle of where either the high-speed exit taxiway or the parallel taxiway will be.


I believe you mean 4L because 4R would be in the vicinity of runways 10 and 28. You're right, looking at the map, I think the new location will be in the same area perhaps a bit south of where it is right now.


Yep, your right. I meant 4L.

Btw, her is the link to what I am talking about.https://www.faa.gov/airports/airport_development/omp/planning/alp/oct2003_alp/media/03-FutureAirportLayoutPlan.pdf
KORD>RJAA>KORD day trip? Why not! The beauty of non-reving.
Yes, I use ICAO codes
Flown: PA-28, PA-38
Passenger on: A319/A320 737, 747-400, 757, 767, 777, 787-8/9
Finally got on a 747!

I work for United Airlines, but I don't speak for the company.
 
ADrum23
Posts: 1789
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:54 pm

Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:09 pm

ORDfan wrote:
I know you've been a vocal advocate for the pier style approach, but I would like to note that the slide you reference is from the "30 year plan" NOT the ORD 21 official 10 year plan, which is the only part of the plan that is currently funded. I don't think I have to tell you that a lot can change between now and then. Even the original OMP has changed dramatically since it was first announced and over the course of it's lifetime.

Need I remind you, as late as 2015 or so, the "Master Plan" and World Gateway part of the OMP had the terminal layout (including the 'original' western terminal) as per below, which included a new Terminal 4 and Terminal 6 connected to Terminal 5.

Needless to say, you can see the differences vs ORD 21 a few years later quite clearly. I wouldn't hold your breadth or make proclamations on anything definitive for the two western-most terminals/satellites until the completion of ORD 21 or well after. It is all purely speculation.


Not quite.

Indeed, the OMP has changed, and I understand things can change. Nonetheless, the image I shared will (more or less) be the terminal layout going forward (not the terminal layout in the OMP that was previously under consideration). Why? Because this is what the airlines and the city agreed to. It is explicitly stated as such in the lease/ordinance agreement.

In that document, it states the trigger for Satellite 3 and the APM will be once ORD hits 101,500,000 pax (predicted to happen shortly after Phase 1 is completed). Of course, economic conditions could change the implementation timeline, and there could be a few minor design modifications, but the basic framework of how the terminal will be laid out has been agreed upon and will not change.
 
ORDfan
Topic Author
Posts: 563
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2007 6:02 am

Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:20 am

ADrum23 wrote:
ORDfan wrote:
I know you've been a vocal advocate for the pier style approach, but I would like to note that the slide you reference is from the "30 year plan" NOT the ORD 21 official 10 year plan, which is the only part of the plan that is currently funded. I don't think I have to tell you that a lot can change between now and then. Even the original OMP has changed dramatically since it was first announced and over the course of it's lifetime.

Need I remind you, as late as 2015 or so, the "Master Plan" and World Gateway part of the OMP had the terminal layout (including the 'original' western terminal) as per below, which included a new Terminal 4 and Terminal 6 connected to Terminal 5.

Needless to say, you can see the differences vs ORD 21 a few years later quite clearly. I wouldn't hold your breadth or make proclamations on anything definitive for the two western-most terminals/satellites until the completion of ORD 21 or well after. It is all purely speculation.


Not quite.

Indeed, the OMP has changed, and I understand things can change. Nonetheless, the image I shared will (more or less) be the terminal layout going forward (not the terminal layout in the OMP that was previously under consideration). Why? Because this is what the airlines and the city agreed to. It is explicitly stated as such in the lease/ordinance agreement.

In that document, it states the trigger for Satellite 3 and the APM will be once ORD hits 101,500,000 pax (predicted to happen shortly after Phase 1 is completed). Of course, economic conditions could change the implementation timeline, and there could be a few minor design modifications, but the basic framework of how the terminal will be laid out has been agreed upon and will not change.


Incorrect. According to the city's own website, neither of the satellites you refer to are officially part of the TAP (Terminal Area Plan) as it is known today. As I stated, the only part that is funded are the existing C concourse expansion/satellite 1 and satellite 2.

Furthermore, just to give you an idea of how much things have changed. Here's a link to all the historical LOI and funding letters from OMP over the years: note several of them even explicitly still stated Terminals 4,5,6 etc to receive funding at that time, which of course it never did. It's simply not feasible to state that plan definitively (without even mentioning funding) - please source it, or share the lease/ordinance agreement... I honestly have been able to find it.

https://www.faa.gov/airports/airport_de ... p/funding/

https://www.faa.gov/airports/airport_de ... Letter.pdf

https://www.cityofchicago.org/content/d ... irport.pdf

For reference: this is what has been approved and funded:

Image
 
ADrum23
Posts: 1789
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:54 pm

Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:45 am

ORDfan wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
ORDfan wrote:
I know you've been a vocal advocate for the pier style approach, but I would like to note that the slide you reference is from the "30 year plan" NOT the ORD 21 official 10 year plan, which is the only part of the plan that is currently funded. I don't think I have to tell you that a lot can change between now and then. Even the original OMP has changed dramatically since it was first announced and over the course of it's lifetime.

Need I remind you, as late as 2015 or so, the "Master Plan" and World Gateway part of the OMP had the terminal layout (including the 'original' western terminal) as per below, which included a new Terminal 4 and Terminal 6 connected to Terminal 5.

Needless to say, you can see the differences vs ORD 21 a few years later quite clearly. I wouldn't hold your breadth or make proclamations on anything definitive for the two western-most terminals/satellites until the completion of ORD 21 or well after. It is all purely speculation.


Not quite.

Indeed, the OMP has changed, and I understand things can change. Nonetheless, the image I shared will (more or less) be the terminal layout going forward (not the terminal layout in the OMP that was previously under consideration). Why? Because this is what the airlines and the city agreed to. It is explicitly stated as such in the lease/ordinance agreement.

In that document, it states the trigger for Satellite 3 and the APM will be once ORD hits 101,500,000 pax (predicted to happen shortly after Phase 1 is completed). Of course, economic conditions could change the implementation timeline, and there could be a few minor design modifications, but the basic framework of how the terminal will be laid out has been agreed upon and will not change.


Incorrect. According to the city's own website, neither of the satellites you refer to are officially part of the TAP (Terminal Area Plan) as it is known today. As I stated, the only part that is funded are the existing C concourse expansion/satellite 1 and satellite 2.

Furthermore, just to give you an idea of how much things have changed. Here's a link to all the historical LOI and funding letters from OMP over the years: note several of them even explicitly still stated Terminals 4,5,6 etc to receive funding at that time, which of course it never did. It's simply not feasible to state that plan definitively (without even mentioning funding) - please source it, or share the lease/ordinance agreement... I honestly have been able to find it.

https://www.faa.gov/airports/airport_de ... p/funding/

https://www.faa.gov/airports/airport_de ... Letter.pdf

https://www.cityofchicago.org/content/d ... irport.pdf

For reference: this is what has been approved and funded:

Image


https://chicago.legistar.com/LegislationDetail.aspx?ID=3357763&GUID=936BA777-935A-43D1-BCD7-DE1164AF51AC&Options=&Search=

Please see the document entitled "O2018-1124.pdf". Note what it says in section 10.3

10.3 Additional TAP Elements
10.3.1 Exhibit M describes Additional TAP Elements and, where applicable. Additional TAP Element Triggers. Subject to Sections 10.3.2 and 10.3.4, the City may proceed with the design, construction and equipping of each Additional TAP Element that includes an Additional TAP Trigger without further review by the Majority-in-Interest if:
(a) The Additional TAP Element Trigger(s) specified for the project in Exhibit M have been met for any three (3) consecutive years, which may occur before or after the O'FIare Global Terminal ("OCT") and O'FIare Global Concourse ("OGC"), as defined in Exhibit L, are complete and in service;
(b) There are no airspace or airfield capacity constraints that would diminish the utility of the Additional TAP Element;
(c) The OGT and OGC are complete and in service;
(d) The City does not plan any modifications of the Additional TAP Element that would result in a Change in Project Scope Requiring MIT review, as speeified in Exhibit M; and
(e) The Cityfirst provides the Executive Working Group with documentation that the conditions in Sections 10.3.1(a) through (d) have all been met and consults with the Executive Working Group on the estimated timing of


It also lists the Phase 2 and beyond projects in the FAQ on the website under Question 5.

http://www.ord21.com/About/Pages/faq.aspx
 
ZBA2CGX
Posts: 113
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 11:09 pm

Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:27 pm

Note sure if this was covered earlier.
https://abc7chicago.com/cargo-jet-lands ... s/3919046/
 
wnflyguy
Posts: 1692
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:58 pm

Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:10 pm

timberwolf24 wrote:
Anyone know when T5 expansion is to start? Also any roumors about new service to ORD or MDW for 2019?


MDW Had Rumors is WestJet or Swoon service in 2019.
Other than that.
Allegiant has Been actively putting up adding MDW service up over Gary. Few months ago it seemed as MDW won the battle against Gary but nothing new come about since.
Speculation was if they do come to MDW it would be by November or December 2018.

Also talk that MDW airport has agreed to Let's WN pay for DL to relocate to Gates A14/A16.
WN will be taking over gates A5/A9.
Then will redo the gate areas , jet bridges and adding a connecting walkway to the international arrivals area by gate A3.
This will give WN the ability to have international swing gates cut down Turn and aircraft ground times by 70% and increase international flights by 20% at MDW.
During the gate reconstruction WN will temporarily use gate s C1 and C3.
This is all predicted to happen between 2019/20

MDW new checkpoint is coming along a steady pace. Looks like their getting things ready to break ground on the new Park lot over CTA yard.

Flyguy
my post are my opinion only and not those of southwest airlines and or airtran airlines.
 
ORDfan
Topic Author
Posts: 563
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2007 6:02 am

Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:41 pm

ADrum23 wrote:
ORDfan wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:

Not quite.

Indeed, the OMP has changed, and I understand things can change. Nonetheless, the image I shared will (more or less) be the terminal layout going forward (not the terminal layout in the OMP that was previously under consideration). Why? Because this is what the airlines and the city agreed to. It is explicitly stated as such in the lease/ordinance agreement.

In that document, it states the trigger for Satellite 3 and the APM will be once ORD hits 101,500,000 pax (predicted to happen shortly after Phase 1 is completed). Of course, economic conditions could change the implementation timeline, and there could be a few minor design modifications, but the basic framework of how the terminal will be laid out has been agreed upon and will not change.


Incorrect. According to the city's own website, neither of the satellites you refer to are officially part of the TAP (Terminal Area Plan) as it is known today. As I stated, the only part that is funded are the existing C concourse expansion/satellite 1 and satellite 2.

Furthermore, just to give you an idea of how much things have changed. Here's a link to all the historical LOI and funding letters from OMP over the years: note several of them even explicitly still stated Terminals 4,5,6 etc to receive funding at that time, which of course it never did. It's simply not feasible to state that plan definitively (without even mentioning funding) - please source it, or share the lease/ordinance agreement... I honestly have been able to find it.

https://www.faa.gov/airports/airport_de ... p/funding/

https://www.faa.gov/airports/airport_de ... Letter.pdf

https://www.cityofchicago.org/content/d ... irport.pdf

For reference: this is what has been approved and funded:

Image


https://chicago.legistar.com/LegislationDetail.aspx?ID=3357763&GUID=936BA777-935A-43D1-BCD7-DE1164AF51AC&Options=&Search=

Please see the document entitled "O2018-1124.pdf". Note what it says in section 10.3

10.3 Additional TAP Elements
10.3.1 Exhibit M describes Additional TAP Elements and, where applicable. Additional TAP Element Triggers. Subject to Sections 10.3.2 and 10.3.4, the City may proceed with the design, construction and equipping of each Additional TAP Element that includes an Additional TAP Trigger without further review by the Majority-in-Interest if:
(a) The Additional TAP Element Trigger(s) specified for the project in Exhibit M have been met for any three (3) consecutive years, which may occur before or after the O'FIare Global Terminal ("OCT") and O'FIare Global Concourse ("OGC"), as defined in Exhibit L, are complete and in service;
(b) There are no airspace or airfield capacity constraints that would diminish the utility of the Additional TAP Element;
(c) The OGT and OGC are complete and in service;
(d) The City does not plan any modifications of the Additional TAP Element that would result in a Change in Project Scope Requiring MIT review, as speeified in Exhibit M; and
(e) The Cityfirst provides the Executive Working Group with documentation that the conditions in Sections 10.3.1(a) through (d) have all been met and consults with the Executive Working Group on the estimated timing of


It also lists the Phase 2 and beyond projects in the FAQ on the website under Question 5.

http://www.ord21.com/About/Pages/faq.aspx


Thanks for sharing the link - I had not previously seen that document. However, it's almost funny how the letter is nearly identical to the letters the City published back in 2004 and 2005 regarding Terminals 4 and 6 and the Western Terminal. Which nothing came of them.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I am highly skeptical of any plans after Phase 1 based on historical precedent. The city has, and always will, give itself a lot of wiggle room for modifications, or outright deletions. Notice the language says "City may proceed... does not plan any modifications ", not exactly definitive. We have seen this before. Also again, the "additional TAP Element" is referred to in other literature I linked above as a "30 year plan."

Furthermore, I'm additionally skeptical of the city's own time-frame for Phase 1. Completion of Phase 1 by 2026? Highly doubtful. The CONRAC is nearly 2 years behind schedule, Terminal 5 expansion was first announced in 2016 and they haven't even started yet, lol.

https://www.cityofchicago.org/city/en/d ... nsion.html
 
ADrum23
Posts: 1789
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:54 pm

Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:03 pm

ORDfan wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
ORDfan wrote:

Incorrect. According to the city's own website, neither of the satellites you refer to are officially part of the TAP (Terminal Area Plan) as it is known today. As I stated, the only part that is funded are the existing C concourse expansion/satellite 1 and satellite 2.

Furthermore, just to give you an idea of how much things have changed. Here's a link to all the historical LOI and funding letters from OMP over the years: note several of them even explicitly still stated Terminals 4,5,6 etc to receive funding at that time, which of course it never did. It's simply not feasible to state that plan definitively (without even mentioning funding) - please source it, or share the lease/ordinance agreement... I honestly have been able to find it.

https://www.faa.gov/airports/airport_de ... p/funding/

https://www.faa.gov/airports/airport_de ... Letter.pdf

https://www.cityofchicago.org/content/d ... irport.pdf

For reference: this is what has been approved and funded:

Image


https://chicago.legistar.com/LegislationDetail.aspx?ID=3357763&GUID=936BA777-935A-43D1-BCD7-DE1164AF51AC&Options=&Search=

Please see the document entitled "O2018-1124.pdf". Note what it says in section 10.3

10.3 Additional TAP Elements
10.3.1 Exhibit M describes Additional TAP Elements and, where applicable. Additional TAP Element Triggers. Subject to Sections 10.3.2 and 10.3.4, the City may proceed with the design, construction and equipping of each Additional TAP Element that includes an Additional TAP Trigger without further review by the Majority-in-Interest if:
(a) The Additional TAP Element Trigger(s) specified for the project in Exhibit M have been met for any three (3) consecutive years, which may occur before or after the O'FIare Global Terminal ("OCT") and O'FIare Global Concourse ("OGC"), as defined in Exhibit L, are complete and in service;
(b) There are no airspace or airfield capacity constraints that would diminish the utility of the Additional TAP Element;
(c) The OGT and OGC are complete and in service;
(d) The City does not plan any modifications of the Additional TAP Element that would result in a Change in Project Scope Requiring MIT review, as speeified in Exhibit M; and
(e) The Cityfirst provides the Executive Working Group with documentation that the conditions in Sections 10.3.1(a) through (d) have all been met and consults with the Executive Working Group on the estimated timing of


It also lists the Phase 2 and beyond projects in the FAQ on the website under Question 5.

http://www.ord21.com/About/Pages/faq.aspx


Thanks for sharing the link - I had not previously seen that document. However, it's almost funny how the letter is nearly identical to the letters the City published back in 2004 and 2005 regarding Terminals 4 and 6 and the Western Terminal. Which nothing came of them.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I am highly skeptical of any plans after Phase 1 based on historical precedent. The city has, and always will, give itself a lot of wiggle room for modifications, or outright deletions. Notice the language says "City may proceed... does not plan any modifications ", not exactly definitive. We have seen this before. Also again, the "additional TAP Element" is referred to in other literature I linked above as a "30 year plan."

Furthermore, I'm additionally skeptical of the city's own time-frame for Phase 1. Completion of Phase 1 by 2026? Highly doubtful. The CONRAC is nearly 2 years behind schedule, Terminal 5 expansion was first announced in 2016 and they haven't even started yet, lol.

https://www.cityofchicago.org/city/en/d ... nsion.html


I don't disagree that things will change, but I'm fairly confident most of this (even if it is not exactly as described above) will be completed, even if it takes 30 years. The difference here between the original OMP and O'Hare 21 is the airlines (UA and AA) didn't formally agree to the terminal plan in the original OMP, while they did formally agree to this one. If ORD wants to catch ATL, then they have to proceed with this plan to the fullest extent possible.

I agree 100,000% about the completion of Phase 1 by 2026, not happening. If they wanted to do that, they should have broken ground the minute the ink dried on the lease deal. Like I said before, the fact that it is taking forever to complete the CONRAC and the ATS extension/rehab is an ominous prelude of things to come.

But then again, this is what happens when you are trying to play catch up after years of non-investment. To quote Willy Wonka, "So much time and so little to do........ strike that, reverse it"
 
Johnnyg150
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:08 pm

Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:25 pm

This is my first post, so here goes! Sorry if this is a little bit off topic.

Since Elon Musk's sled thing goes express from downtown to ORD, wouldn't it make sense to have security and check-in at Block37, than have an airside tunnel right to the gates?

I believe either Emirates or Etihad does something similar, where you can check in at the mall downtown, and then take the bus to the terminal.

It seems unlikely that the ATS could ever sustain the demand of a station outside the O'Hare boundaries.
 
User avatar
kngkyle
Moderator
Posts: 505
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 3:33 am

Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Sun Aug 12, 2018 1:15 pm

Johnnyg150 wrote:
This is my first post, so here goes! Sorry if this is a little bit off topic.

Since Elon Musk's sled thing goes express from downtown to ORD, wouldn't it make sense to have security and check-in at Block37, than have an airside tunnel right to the gates?

I believe either Emirates or Etihad does something similar, where you can check in at the mall downtown, and then take the bus to the terminal.

It seems unlikely that the ATS could ever sustain the demand of a station outside the O'Hare boundaries.


I believe this was mentioned by Elon as being the ideal scenario. But I'm not sure if there is enough space under Block 37 for them to build out security, check-in, and baggage processing.
 
User avatar
yeogeo
Posts: 1231
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 2:47 pm

Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Sun Aug 12, 2018 1:22 pm

kngkyle wrote:
Johnnyg150 wrote:
..Since Elon Musk's sled thing goes express from downtown to ORD, wouldn't it make sense to have security and check-in at Block37, than have an airside tunnel right to the gates?


I believe this was mentioned by Elon as being the ideal scenario. But I'm not sure if there is enough space under Block 37 for them to build out security, check-in, and baggage processing.


Yes, it was mentioned. For example, here:

"After the tunnel opens, Musk said the goal is to get people to and from the airport fast. He even suggested that it might be possible to perform security pre-clearance at the downtown transit station so that travelers could go “straight to [the] terminal.” He added that a deal with the Transportation Security Administration would still need to be hammered out, though."

https://www.theverge.com/2018/6/14/1746 ... el-project

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