Planeboy17
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Sun May 13, 2018 2:22 pm

midway7 wrote:
ORDfan wrote:
yeogeo wrote:

American is dealing here with an extremely constrained building footprint along with special safety considerations which necessitates the featureless north wall. I'm sure they've taken every inch they could.


Hmm, you think so? I'm not sure how much influence AA had on the seating area size vs the city/airport planners. To my eye, the seating area looks small/narrow relative to the width of the aisle.

I'm not bothered by the north wall, but a little art work would be nice some day! Maybe some coffee/snack kiosks as well?

Image


The north wall at some point will be replaced with 3 additional gates. However, I agree, they should do something in the interim.

This may sound crazy, and knowing Chicago politics I likely can surmise the answer, but why not relocate Spirit to this stinger concourse, and free up the old L concourse for use exclusively by AA. This would help AA some with connections and ground operations. Since NK is likely all O&D, I do not see how this would have any negative effect on their operations.

Adding these new gates to the F9 gates they are getting back in old L, AA seems to have added some real gates here recently. Any of these, or the gates in H/K being converted back to mainline. Just interested in what the overall plan is with these additions.


The stinger gates are only for aircraft no larger than an E-175. Anything larger would impede getting in and out of the alley.
I don’t know if that will be true of the future 3 gates on the north side of the building but I’d imagine they will be the same.
 
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yeogeo
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Sun May 13, 2018 2:34 pm

According to Enilria's latest, Avianca is dropping SAL as it introduces GUA & BOG - a detail I had not heard.

*AV ORD-BOG NOV 0>0.3 DEC 0>0.6 JAN 0>0.5
*AV ORD-GUA NOV 0>1.0 DEC 0>1.0 JAN 0>1.0
*AV ORD-SAL NOV 0.4>0 DEC 0.4>0 JAN 0.5>0

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1394015
 
chicawgo
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Mon May 14, 2018 3:51 am

yeogeo wrote:
midway7 wrote:
Not necessarily implying they hand them over. Not even sure what you mean in that context.


Hand over, lease, barter, whatever... not going to happen. In a few years (hopefully) T-3 will be all Oneworld so NK will be over at T-5 anyway.

Image

Came across this newly minted map of T-3. I see the T-5 shuttle is only for British Airways pax, so I take it that it was initiated by BA. Did not know this; thought it was for all comers.


Not sure where you got this but there is no longer the BA shuttle. AA has a shuttle that is for any connecting flight at T5. And jcwr56 says it has a new stop at the stinger now too.
 
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yeogeo
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Mon May 14, 2018 12:03 pm

chicawgo wrote:
Not sure where you got this but there is no longer the BA shuttle. AA has a shuttle that is for any connecting flight at T5. And jcwr56 says it has a new stop at the stinger now too.


The map is from an AA press release of a few days ago announcing the opening of the L Stinger gates. I of course assumed the map was up to date, but apparently not!
http://news.aa.com/news/news-details/20 ... fault.aspx

You are right, the service is for anyone needing to transfer to T-5, but apparently the Stinger gates service is pending:

"If you arrive on a domestic flight ...you can take a Terminal Transfer Bus (TTB) from Terminal 3 to Terminal 5 and bypass the security checkpoint in Terminal 5. The Terminal Transfer Bus service is year round with operation hours as follows: 10:00 am - 8 pm.
Terminal Transfer Bus (TTB) Terminal 3 Pickup Locations
Gate G17
Gate K20
Gate L24 Coming Soon"

http://www.flychicago.com/ohare/myfligh ... fault.aspx
 
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yeogeo
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Tue May 15, 2018 7:12 pm

Available at O'Hare (& EWR, BOS, BWI PIT, DTW, SFO, LAX & STL), Wow has announced fares as low as $199 one-way to Delhi via KEF. Pretty amazing.

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-release ... 48255.html

also being discussed more broadly here:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1393723&start=50

As Matt6471 points out, the route is actually more efficient than flying via Dubai

Image
 
ORDfan
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Tue May 15, 2018 9:47 pm

jcwr56 wrote:
For those interested, the wall to the right will be where the new 3 regional new gates will be built.


I taxi'd past the stinger gates a few nights ago and didn't notice any exterior openings for the future gates, but it was kind of dark in all honesty. Why didn't they open the gates right away??

I wonder if those are dummy walls on the north-side then...must be.

According to the ORD 21 renderings, looks like it will be 2 gates from the north-side of the terminal and then one long walkway from the East...but who knows how accurate the renderings are today.

Image
 
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yeogeo
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Tue May 15, 2018 11:00 pm

Liked the caption by the photographer, Ubiquitous Bobo, of a recent shot of the field, even if he missed including one terminal and one runway :bigthumbsup::

"Such an amazing overview of this majestic airport: 8 runways, 4 terminals, 3 towers, 2 main cargo holding zones. Even my 17mm-len is unable to contain all of its parts. [Photo taken on Alaska flight 23 after departing ORD runway 09R bound for SEA]"

 
ORDfan
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Wed May 16, 2018 9:51 pm

yeogeo wrote:
Perhaps this was discussed elsewhere; if so, I missed it. As midway7 implied upthread, Frontier has moved entirely over to T-5 as of yesterday.


Here's an article from CBJ about the Frontier move. Never flew F9 before, but I guess this will give me a reason to check them out - seems like the cheapest/easiest way to go for nice a walk through T5, haha!

Interesting to note that some restaurants are going to run extended hours now too.

https://www.bizjournals.com/chicago/new ... ohare.html
 
ADrum23
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Thu May 17, 2018 10:15 pm

yeogeo wrote:
Perhaps this was discussed elsewhere; if so, I missed it. As midway7 implied upthread, Frontier has moved entirely over to T-5 as of yesterday.

http://www.flychicago.com/business/medi ... ewsid=1464


When are they going to start on the T5 expansion? There are several places that have stated that the T5 expansion was a preexisting project that was approved prior and separate from the main O'Hare 21 work, along with the new T3 stinger gates and the new CONRAC/ATS refresh.
 
sircygnus
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Thu May 17, 2018 11:14 pm

Sorry don’t know how to link, but the UA network thread says UA is starting service from ORD to BRO soon.
 
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yeogeo
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Thu May 17, 2018 11:35 pm

ADrum23 wrote:
When are they going to start on the T5 expansion? There are several places that have stated that the T5 expansion was a preexisting project that was approved prior and separate from the main O'Hare 21 work, along with the new T3 stinger gates and the new CONRAC/ATS refresh.


The deadline for bids was about one year ago, so paperwork is being shuffled for sure !

Here's what the proposal for bid looked like (edited!):

"1. Terminal 5 M Extension
The Chicago Department of Aviation has commenced development of an approximately 300,000 square foot, three level extension to Terminal 5 M Concourse which shall include reconfiguring the aircraft parking at Gate M18, relocating gates M19 through M21 and providing six (6) additional contact position gates M22 through M27, and a minimum of four (4) new hardstand positions…. Gates will have accommodation for dual jet bridges capable of serving wide body aircraft. At least one gate will serve the upper deck of an A380. The extension’s building program shall include holdroom space, circulation including FIS connections, restrooms and concession spaces on the Concourse Level. The Apron Level shall comprise of airline operations spaces, an FIS sterile corridor connecting to the existing building and Mechanical/Electrical rooms. An airline lounge space will connect directly to a designated gate or gates. The lounge space will be designed as a “white box” for tenant design and build-out, but will have complete MEPFP services infrastructure and vertical transportation capacity available as applicable for the club, including providing services to support a full kitchen. Options on the location of the lounge space may include a mezzanine level.

In addition to the extension, the existing building must be modified to accommodate two new domestic gates (M2B & M3B), including new jet bridges, fixed walkway extensions ….as may be required for these two fully functioning gates. An approximately 15,000 square foot expansion of the west wing of terminal 5 is to be included which will provide additional holdroom space, concessions and area for airline club lounge for the domestic carrier. Modifications to the existing carousels in the Apron Level Outbound Bag Makeup area and/or extending a baggage conveyor out to a dedicated domestic carrier bag make-up area under the west wing expansion shall be included.
An additional domestic baggage claim unit belt and lengthening the existing domestic bag claim unit at the current location at the Basement (Arrivals) Level in order to accommodate the requirements of the domestic airline operational needs as well as reconfiguring the TSA Security Checkpoint to accommodate the additional passenger demands due to the added gates will be required.
The construction of both the extension and the modifications to the existing building shall be phased to maintain the current gate count, hard stands and aircraft gauge during construction.

An additional domestic baggage claim unit belt and lengthening the existing domestic bag claim unit at the current location at the Basement (Arrivals) Level in order to accommodate the requirements of the domestic airline operational needs as well as reconfiguring the TSA Security Checkpoint to accommodate the additional passenger demands due to the added gates will be required.
The construction of both the extension and the modifications to the existing building shall be phased to maintain the current gate count, hard stands and aircraft gauge during construction. "
 
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yeogeo
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Fri May 18, 2018 12:03 am

sircygnus wrote:
Sorry don’t know how to link, but the UA network thread says UA is starting service from ORD to BRO soon.


http://www.brownsvilleherald.com/news/l ... dfb4d.html
 
ILS28ORD
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Fri May 18, 2018 12:28 am

Will the 4 new T5 hard stands be for loading/unloading pax or just overflow parking spaces to move aircraft to between flights? I see some heavies parked at the current hard stands by the east end of T5 but I don't believe they bus people to/from them. The only hard stand I have seen used for boarding/offloading is the one at the end of L gates that NK uses.
 
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yeogeo
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Fri May 18, 2018 1:35 am

ILS28ORD wrote:
Will the 4 new T5 hard stands be for loading/unloading pax or just overflow parking spaces to move aircraft to between flights?


This was discussed upthread some time ago... and the answer to your question was "we don't know yet".

Image

Notice they've added to the rendering the "At least one gate [serving] the upper deck of an A380". Is that the gate now serving BA?
 
Planeboy17
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Fri May 18, 2018 2:48 am

ADrum23 wrote:
yeogeo wrote:
Perhaps this was discussed elsewhere; if so, I missed it. As midway7 implied upthread, Frontier has moved entirely over to T-5 as of yesterday.

http://www.flychicago.com/business/medi ... ewsid=1464


When are they going to start on the T5 expansion? There are several places that have stated that the T5 expansion was a preexisting project that was approved prior and separate from the main O'Hare 21 work, along with the new T3 stinger gates and the new CONRAC/ATS refresh.

I don’t have any info but I would imagine they won’t do any serious construction until the summer season is over.
 
ILS28ORD
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Fri May 18, 2018 1:26 pm

I find it odd the city doesn't seem to want to connect T5 to the rest of the terminals via a post security walkway or 2 direction bus. They keep promoting the expansion and how interconnected the airport will be, esp for intl--> domestic transfers, while being fine with keeping T5 isolated. Not sure why they wouldn't want a post security terminal transfer. Not every OW/SA intl parter will operate into T2.
 
ADrum23
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Fri May 18, 2018 4:14 pm

ILS28ORD wrote:
I find it odd the city doesn't seem to want to connect T5 to the rest of the terminals via a post security walkway or 2 direction bus. They keep promoting the expansion and how interconnected the airport will be, esp for intl--> domestic transfers, while being fine with keeping T5 isolated. Not sure why they wouldn't want a post security terminal transfer. Not every OW/SA intl parter will operate into T2.


Why wouldn’t every SA/OW partner be in the new T2/Global Terminal? Isn’t that kind of the point of this project?

T5 will be O&D focused with the nonaligned carriers so there isn’t a need for a post security walkway.
 
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yeogeo
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Fri May 18, 2018 11:05 pm

ILS28ORD wrote:
Not every OW/SA intl parter will operate into T2.


ADrum23 wrote:
Why wouldn’t every SA/OW partner be in the new T2/Global Terminal? Isn’t that kind of the point of this project?


Exactly!

ADrum23 wrote:
T5 will be O&D focused with the nonaligned carriers so there isn’t a need for a post security walkway.

Nonaligned and Skyteam, so not a huge amount of transferring between T-5 and the others - the ATS can certainly handle it.
 
ILS28ORD
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Fri May 18, 2018 11:31 pm

I thought it was core OW/SA partners moving to the global terminal with the non core partners staying in T5 with Skyteam and LCC's?
 
ADrum23
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Fri May 18, 2018 11:40 pm

ILS28ORD wrote:
I thought it was core OW/SA partners moving to the global terminal with the non core partners staying in T5 with Skyteam and LLCs?


Define “core partners”. If you are talking about jv partners, then only LH, NH (UA) and BA, JL (AA) will be going. That isn’t very many.
 
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yeogeo
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Sat May 19, 2018 2:37 am

ILS28ORD wrote:
I thought it was core OW/SA partners moving to the global terminal with the non core partners staying in T5 with Skyteam and LCC's?


Don't believe so.
From the O'Hare 21 announcement document:
"O’Hare will also soon become home to the first Global Alliance Hub in North America and one of only 5 in the world, where each of the three international airline alliance partners operate within a single terminal facility to make connecting flights more seamless and convenient for passengers."

http://www.flychicago.com/sites/ohare21 ... x?newsid=4
 
ADrum23
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Sat May 19, 2018 2:49 am

yeogeo wrote:
ILS28ORD wrote:
I thought it was core OW/SA partners moving to the global terminal with the non core partners staying in T5 with Skyteam and LCC's?


Don't believe so.
From the O'Hare 21 announcement document:
"O’Hare will also soon become home to the first Global Alliance Hub in North America and one of only 5 in the world, where each of the three international airline alliance partners operate within a single terminal facility to make connecting flights more seamless and convenient for passengers."

http://www.flychicago.com/sites/ohare21 ... x?newsid=4


I am curious, can someone list each foreign airline that serves ORD by alliance (or lack thereof). It seems most of the foreign carriers that serve ORD are (appropriately) either Star Alliance/Oneworld, so there may not be many left to stay in T5.
 
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yeogeo
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Sat May 19, 2018 3:34 am

Took the list of foreign airlines at O'Hare from Wiki and added alliances from memory... so may need some corrections, especially among the unaligned.

Unaligned
Aer Lingus
Bahamasair
Cayman
Emirates
Hainan
Etihad
Icelandair
Interjet
Norwegian
VivaAerobus
Volaris
WOW

Oneworld
British
Cathay Pacific
Finnair
Iberia
Japan Airlines
Qatar
Royal Jordanian

Star
Air Canada
Air India
Air New Zealand
ANA
Asiana
Austrian
Avianca
Copa
Ethiopian
EVA
LOT
Lufthansa
SAS
Swiss
Turkish

Sky Team
Aeroméxico
Air France
Alitalia
China Eastern
KLM
Korean
 
ILS28ORD
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Sat May 19, 2018 4:31 am

Thanks that helps to know who probably moves and stays. I still think they should interconnect all terminals post security. It couldn't hurt.
 
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yeogeo
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Sat May 19, 2018 11:36 am

ILS28ORD wrote:
I still think they should interconnect all terminals post security. It couldn't hurt.


Don't disagree with you there.
Perhaps they will continue the current airside shuttle, T-3 to/from T-5, and then expand it to the new T-2.
Not sure they will see the traffic to justify it, however.
 
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yeogeo
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Sat May 19, 2018 2:15 pm

yeogeo wrote:
Sky Team
Aeroméxico
Air France
Alitalia
China Eastern
KLM
Korean


This had me wondering whether more Sky Team members might be inclined to introduce service with the Terminal 5 reorganization.
There's certainly a few from the list below that could conceivably have ambitions to be in ORD co-habitating with the current crop of foreign Sky Team members + Delta.

Aeroflot
Aerolínas Argentinas
Air Europa
China Southern
China Airlines
Czech
Kenya
MEA
Vietnam
Xiamen Air
Tarom
 
ADrum23
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Sat May 19, 2018 10:56 pm

yeogeo wrote:
ILS28ORD wrote:
I still think they should interconnect all terminals post security. It couldn't hurt.


Don't disagree with you there.
Perhaps they will continue the current airside shuttle, T-3 to/from T-5, and then expand it to the new T-2.
Not sure they will see the traffic to justify it, however.


I don't think an airside connection to T5 is needed right now in this initial phase, but perhaps eventually it will be needed once the additional concourses to the west are built and western access for passengers is created. Under the current long range plans, passengers coming from the west (off IL-390/I-490) going to T5 would have to clear security, ride the people mover all the way to the current T3, exit security and ride the existing ATS to T5 and re-clear security. They must figure that the percentage of pax doing that is small enough that is doesn't justify the cost of extending the future APM to T5.

Speaking of the APM, and I may have mentioned this before, I think they should install it in this phase and simply extend it when the additional concourses are built. It's going to be a fairly long walk to Satellite 2 from the global terminal and having it would be nice. Will the new tunnel at least having moving sidewalks in the interim (assuming the tunnel is built similar to ATL)?
 
Planeboy17
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Sat May 19, 2018 11:32 pm

ADrum23 wrote:
yeogeo wrote:
ILS28ORD wrote:
I still think they should interconnect all terminals post security. It couldn't hurt.


Don't disagree with you there.
Perhaps they will continue the current airside shuttle, T-3 to/from T-5, and then expand it to the new T-2.
Not sure they will see the traffic to justify it, however.


I don't think an airside connection to T5 is needed right now in this initial phase, but perhaps eventually it will be needed once the additional concourses to the west are built and western access for passengers is created. Under the current long range plans, passengers coming from the west (off IL-390/I-490) going to T5 would have to clear security, ride the people mover all the way to the current T3, exit security and ride the existing ATS to T5 and re-clear security. They must figure that the percentage of pax doing that is small enough that is doesn't justify the cost of extending the future APM to T5.

Speaking of the APM, and I may have mentioned this before, I think they should install it in this phase and simply extend it when the additional concourses are built. It's going to be a fairly long walk to Satellite 2 from the global terminal and having it would be nice. Will the new tunnel at least having moving sidewalks in the interim (assuming the tunnel is built similar to ATL)?

The only viable way of doing so would be to tunnel under A and B taxiways from T5 to T3. Not sure how else they could do it with the ATS.
 
airstatdfw
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Sun May 20, 2018 2:09 pm

They have a bus right now for all airlines to use. Leaves from gates G20 and K19 to term 5. So you can get to term 5 post security as of right now. I did hear that they would be adding L24 to the stops.
 
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yeogeo
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Sun May 20, 2018 2:35 pm

Ian McMurtry has a history of Southwest at Midway since its first flights there in 1985:
https://airlinegeeks.com/2018/05/18/the ... indy-city/

"Under Southwest’s growth, Chicago Midway has seen a massive increase in demand. The airport had just 15.6 million passengers at the beginning of the century. But under Southwest’s expansion, the passenger count has increased with the airport welcoming over 22.4 million passengers last year."
 
chidino
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Sun May 20, 2018 8:03 pm

ADrum23 wrote:
Speaking of the APM, and I may have mentioned this before, I think they should install it in this phase and simply extend it when the additional concourses are built. It's going to be a fairly long walk to Satellite 2 from the global terminal and having it would be nice. Will the new tunnel at least having moving sidewalks in the interim (assuming the tunnel is built similar to ATL)?


Reasons for no APM: 1,252,646,800 of them. That's the cost of putting in the thing after the construction of the tunnel (with the APM tunnel already in place) out to Satellite 2. Also, I suspect it would lead to a cascade, because now you have a more difficult time justifying why there isn't full pax facilities on the west side (because the APM has to be extended to meet the employee lot/screening facility that goes in with Phase I). So now it's not just the APM cost, but full passenger facilities -- all to ride the APM for a couple of miles back to the terminals. It would be the airlines spending billions without any direct benefit for themselves, which I just don't see. The convenience simply doesn't justify the airlines' costs.

As to walkways: yes. There will be two in each direction in the main tunnel, and a separate two in the secure tunnel.
 
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yeogeo
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Mon May 21, 2018 12:17 am

ADrum23 wrote:
Under the current long range plans, passengers coming from the west (off IL-390/I-490) going to T5 would have to clear security, ride the people mover all the way to the current T3, exit security and ride the existing ATS to T5 and re-clear security. They must figure that the percentage of pax doing that is small enough that is doesn't justify the cost of extending the future APM to T5.


You're right - that's a haul and a hassle. However the savvy Sky Team passenger approaching O'Hare from the west would hopefully know that an entry around to the airport from the east would likely save time.
 
ADrum23
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Mon May 21, 2018 1:16 am

chidino wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
Speaking of the APM, and I may have mentioned this before, I think they should install it in this phase and simply extend it when the additional concourses are built. It's going to be a fairly long walk to Satellite 2 from the global terminal and having it would be nice. Will the new tunnel at least having moving sidewalks in the interim (assuming the tunnel is built similar to ATL)?


Reasons for no APM: 1,252,646,800 of them. That's the cost of putting in the thing after the construction of the tunnel (with the APM tunnel already in place) out to Satellite 2. Also, I suspect it would lead to a cascade, because now you have a more difficult time justifying why there isn't full pax facilities on the west side (because the APM has to be extended to meet the employee lot/screening facility that goes in with Phase I). So now it's not just the APM cost, but full passenger facilities -- all to ride the APM for a couple of miles back to the terminals. It would be the airlines spending billions without any direct benefit for themselves, which I just don't see. The convenience simply doesn't justify the airlines' costs.

As to walkways: yes. There will be two in each direction in the main tunnel, and a separate two in the secure tunnel.


Not quite understanding your point here.

1. The APM would not be extended to the western parking/screening facility during this phase. When I said what I said above, I meant it should only go between the global terminal and satellite 2 as it is a fairly long walk.

2. CVG has a people mover for a much shorter distance between their two concourses.

3. The costs will only go up over time, therefore, it is better to have it and simply extend it as opposed to having to install it later (where it will be more difficult to do so).
 
ADrum23
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Mon May 21, 2018 1:19 am

yeogeo wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
Under the current long range plans, passengers coming from the west (off IL-390/I-490) going to T5 would have to clear security, ride the people mover all the way to the current T3, exit security and ride the existing ATS to T5 and re-clear security. They must figure that the percentage of pax doing that is small enough that is doesn't justify the cost of extending the future APM to T5.


You're right - that's a haul and a hassle. However the savvy Sky Team passenger approaching O'Hare from the west would hopefully know that an entry around to the airport from the east would likely save time.


Again, they must figure it is a small minority of people from the west that will use the airlines in T5, therefore, it doesn't justify the cost of extending the APM to T5. I would imagine most of the people using T5 in the future will be O&D passengers heading to/from downtown.
 
chidino
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Mon May 21, 2018 3:52 am

ADrum23 wrote:

Not quite understanding your point here.

1. The APM would not be extended to the western parking/screening facility during this phase. When I said what I said above, I meant it should only go between the global terminal and satellite 2 as it is a fairly long walk.

2. CVG has a people mover for a much shorter distance between their two concourses.

3. The costs will only go up over time, therefore, it is better to have it and simply extend it as opposed to having to install it later (where it will be more difficult to do so).


You are right. But we are failing to see it from the carriers' perspective!

It's because the APM will be an all-or-nothing affair. In other words, it's designed to take the Phase I tunnel and extend it to the west employee/screening facility AND east under the OGT to T3. So the APM is tied up in OGT completion and T3 reconstruction -- it has to be built as "the basement" or an equivalent level, so that means complete reconstruction of T3. That means down the road, time-wise (and would be a separate negotiation between AA and the city).

And the APM specifically cannot be opened unless the entire system is in place, from west entrance to T3. So the APM is a completely dead issue until at least T3 reconstruction, plus the airport (at least technically) has to get to 101.5M pax to trigger the APM and Sat 3. So far, we can ask for it, but they're not paying for it.

(I see the APM having to be complete end-to-end as a completely justifiable insistence of AA. Otherwise, UA would have grossly unfair connectivity advantages.)
 
ckfred
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Mon May 21, 2018 4:48 am

In seeing the stinger ramp from taxiing aircraft, I'm not sure you could fit an Airbus narrowbody in the gates, except possibly at L24, because the aircraft would be parked at an angle to the concourse.
 
chidino
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Mon May 21, 2018 5:54 am

chidino wrote:
And the APM specifically cannot be opened unless the entire system is in place, from west entrance to T3. So the APM is a completely dead issue until at least T3 reconstruction, plus the airport (at least technically) has to get to 101.5M pax to trigger the APM and Sat 3. So far, we can ask for it, but they're not paying for it.


It's really business as usual for UA/AA at ORD. UA would want the APM sooner rather than later, but AA can't really utilize it until OGT is built and T3 rebuilt; pending that, their passengers would get deposited basically at the foot of OGT and have to walk to H/K/L. Once all that's done, now, AA's all in favor... and UA has functioned all that time without and will continue to do so, thank you, which is why we have to wait until construction of Sat 3 to get the damn thing. And that requires 25% + growth, in a mature market...

Get your walkin' shoes on.

(It also allows the airlines to continue to avoid western passenger access, which is the last thing in the world they want. That is a nice convenience for passengers, but a monumental PITA for the airlines.)
 
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william
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Mon May 21, 2018 3:55 pm

 
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yeogeo
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Mon May 21, 2018 5:06 pm

william wrote:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-ohare-international-airport-development-history-timeline-htmlstory.html

Yes, worth a look, but if you're wondering why few comment its because we've discussed it earlier -see post 479.
 
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william
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Mon May 21, 2018 6:21 pm

yeogeo wrote:
william wrote:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-ohare-international-airport-development-history-timeline-htmlstory.html

Yes, worth a look, but if you're wondering why few comment its because we've discussed it earlier -see post 479.


Thanks, forgot about that.
 
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yeogeo
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Mon May 21, 2018 11:24 pm

O'Hare shutting down the APM (people movers between terminals) Monday through Friday for overhaul:
https://www.bizjournals.com/chicago/new ... j=81712381

...from May 30 "through the winter season". >>Will remain operating on the weekends.

"Chicagoans are about to get their first big taste of what the $8.5 billion overhaul of O’Hare International Airport will be like for years to come. It’s going to be — in a word — trying."

I'll remember to add a little time and a lot more patience next time I do T-5 to T-2.
 
atrude777
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Tue May 22, 2018 12:15 am

All-

Been keeping up with the news and articles and I haven't really seen a DATE of when things are going into effect?

Example, I am flying in and out of ORD every single week, I do see what appears to be dirt and construction going on.

What is the first project happening? It seems the L Gates just happened/opened...

Are the runway closures and extensions being done first before we start building/working on other terminals?

I am looking for something like...

1-Runway to Close by June 2018
2-Runway to close by August 2018
3-Begin building Satellite Terminal (that cannot happen until runway is closed)
4-Demolish Terminal 2 (which can't happen until Satellite Terminal has been built (to relocate the planes/gates)

Again...I am being random and giving examples..but has anyone out there seen timeline for the construction and what's happening first and date wise?

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
ADrum23
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Tue May 22, 2018 1:07 am

atrude777 wrote:
All-

Been keeping up with the news and articles and I haven't really seen a DATE of when things are going into effect?

Example, I am flying in and out of ORD every single week, I do see what appears to be dirt and construction going on.

What is the first project happening? It seems the L Gates just happened/opened...

Are the runway closures and extensions being done first before we start building/working on other terminals?

I am looking for something like...

1-Runway to Close by June 2018
2-Runway to close by August 2018
3-Begin building Satellite Terminal (that cannot happen until runway is closed)
4-Demolish Terminal 2 (which can't happen until Satellite Terminal has been built (to relocate the planes/gates)

Again...I am being random and giving examples..but has anyone out there seen timeline for the construction and what's happening first and date wise?

Alex


Not sure on exact dates (I've been wondering the same thing), but I believe 15/33 is now closed and therefore, can be removed at anytime. I heard something that major construction will begin next year (2019), but I'm not sure about that either.

I have to imagine at least the Terminal 5 expansion will get going here pretty soon, since apparently, that was a preexisting project before the main O'Hare 21 work was announced.
 
ADrum23
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Tue May 22, 2018 1:10 am

yeogeo wrote:
O'Hare shutting down the APM (people movers between terminals) Monday through Friday for overhaul:
https://www.bizjournals.com/chicago/new ... j=81712381

...from May 30 "through the winter season". >>Will remain operating on the weekends.

"Chicagoans are about to get their first big taste of what the $8.5 billion overhaul of O’Hare International Airport will be like for years to come. It’s going to be — in a word — trying."

I'll remember to add a little time and a lot more patience next time I do T-5 to T-2.


Why do they need to shut the whole system down? Are they going to be replacing the whole system (i.e, the tracks and everything) or just refurbishing?
 
ADrum23
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Tue May 22, 2018 1:13 am

chidino wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:

Not quite understanding your point here.

1. The APM would not be extended to the western parking/screening facility during this phase. When I said what I said above, I meant it should only go between the global terminal and satellite 2 as it is a fairly long walk.

2. CVG has a people mover for a much shorter distance between their two concourses.

3. The costs will only go up over time, therefore, it is better to have it and simply extend it as opposed to having to install it later (where it will be more difficult to do so).


You are right. But we are failing to see it from the carriers' perspective!

It's because the APM will be an all-or-nothing affair. In other words, it's designed to take the Phase I tunnel and extend it to the west employee/screening facility AND east under the OGT to T3. So the APM is tied up in OGT completion and T3 reconstruction -- it has to be built as "the basement" or an equivalent level, so that means complete reconstruction of T3. That means down the road, time-wise (and would be a separate negotiation between AA and the city).

And the APM specifically cannot be opened unless the entire system is in place, from west entrance to T3. So the APM is a completely dead issue until at least T3 reconstruction, plus the airport (at least technically) has to get to 101.5M pax to trigger the APM and Sat 3. So far, we can ask for it, but they're not paying for it.

(I see the APM having to be complete end-to-end as a completely justifiable insistence of AA. Otherwise, UA would have grossly unfair connectivity advantages.)


Fair point. Barring something completely unforeseen, I think ORD will hit the 101,500,000 needed to trigger S3 and the APM within the next 10-15 years. Also, would the T3 redevelopment happen at the same time as the S3 construction and the installation of the APM?
 
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yeogeo
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Tue May 22, 2018 1:47 am

ADrum23 wrote:
Why do they need to shut the whole [APM] system down? Are they going to be replacing the whole system (i.e, the tracks and everything) or just refurbishing?


With that long of a timeline I would expect more than just a refurb.
The only reference I have is Chidino's post (#427 and beyond) where he mentions a 310 million dollar budget which includes a rebuild of sections of the track and a completely new auto-driver system. There will also be new larger & more numerous cars not to mention the completely new section north of the remote parking over to the Consolidated Facility.
 
ADrum23
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Tue May 22, 2018 1:52 am

yeogeo wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
Why do they need to shut the whole [APM] system down? Are they going to be replacing the whole system (i.e, the tracks and everything) or just refurbishing?


With that long of a timeline I would expect more than just a refurb.
The only reference I have is Chidino's post (#427 and beyond) where he mentions a 310 million dollar budget which includes a rebuild of sections of the track and a completely new auto-driver system. There will also be new larger & more numerous cars not to mention the completely new section north of the remote parking over to the Consolidated Facility.


Have they even been replacing the track? I haven't noticed anything.
 
chidino
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Tue May 22, 2018 3:29 am

The concrete structure was perfectly OK (really light loads and only 35 yrs old) but they are replacing the "track", the surface the tires run on. But Bombardier specifically says you can test the new cars part-time and keep your existing trains on, so not sure why this is. Maybe "track" replacement around the terminal core? But no way that take all the way til next year, right? I was under the impression a full shutdown was exactly what they were trying to avoid.

Nice to know communication is working as well as ever. No explanation/justification in the city's press release, no end date, no firm schedules, just buses "every 10 minutes". Why does this reek of impending doom (for at least the first few weeks)?
 
chidino
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Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2018 12:36 pm

Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Tue May 22, 2018 4:04 am

ADrum23 wrote:
atrude777 wrote:
All-

Been keeping up with the news and articles and I haven't really seen a DATE of when things are going into effect?

Example, I am flying in and out of ORD every single week, I do see what appears to be dirt and construction going on.

What is the first project happening? It seems the L Gates just happened/opened...

Are the runway closures and extensions being done first before we start building/working on other terminals?

I am looking for something like...

1-Runway to Close by June 2018
2-Runway to close by August 2018
3-Begin building Satellite Terminal (that cannot happen until runway is closed)
4-Demolish Terminal 2 (which can't happen until Satellite Terminal has been built (to relocate the planes/gates)

Again...I am being random and giving examples..but has anyone out there seen timeline for the construction and what's happening first and date wise?

Alex


Not sure on exact dates (I've been wondering the same thing), but I believe 15/33 is now closed and therefore, can be removed at anytime. I heard something that major construction will begin next year (2019), but I'm not sure about that either.

I have to imagine at least the Terminal 5 expansion will get going here pretty soon, since apparently, that was a preexisting project before the main O'Hare 21 work was announced.


Right... runway closures are complete. But 15/33, which just closed in March, prevented the relocation of the Central Water Basin, so that comes first. It's in the way of new 9C, so it's actually part of OMP (the runway plan, started in 2005) not the new terminal plan. The next steps (they don't have drawings or anything, so although everyone wants to get started, late next year is probably the earliest):

1. Tunnel construction
2. Sat 1-2 construction <== I suppose you could do this and the tunnel together, but disruptions on the airfield that close to the terminals would be a big concern. Also, the tunnel, being underground, will be a lot easier for everyone to agree on; I wouldn't want to be in the meetings where AA and UA reps are "designing" a concourse together.
3. T2 demo/OGT construction (cannot happen until satellites are finished to provide gates)

As ADrum pointed out, T5 expansion is a separate deal, so that expansion should kick in fairly soon. I believe that's the only thing that's even vaguely had a completion date, which is 2021-2022. But I don't think people understand that T5 redevelopment is a two-part deal: the O'Hare 21 plan specifies a "Terminal 5 Repurposing and Core Expansion" which only takes place after the OGT is complete. I had forgotten, but the east concourse in T5 is secure (arrivals only) and that won't change until after OGT is built. (Optimistically, that's 2026.) So T5 looking like a reasonably normal domestic terminal is probably a decade away. (I know there was space for F9, but not for DL and all LCCs.)
 
chidino
Posts: 69
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Re: Chicago Aviation News - 2018

Tue May 22, 2018 4:35 am

ADrum23 wrote:
...Also, would the T3 redevelopment happen at the same time as the S3 construction and the installation of the APM?


The T3 redevelopment is in Phase II, which is rather a la carté and is where American has a lot more say, so it's really up to them and can be considered a little separate. (Everybody's only committed to Phase I.) The overview reads: "The Terminal 3 Redevelopment will provide approximately 1,495 feet of Linear Frontage with Gate Space being designed for a Multiple Aircraft Ramp System (MARS) configuration to allow flexible use of Gate Space between regional jets, narrow body and wide body aircraft (as deemed appropriate) to serve international and domestic operations. Includes demolition of existing Concourses H, K, L, and the Concourse-L expansion as new gates come on-line." The terminal itself would be at least 100 ft deeper (from the curb) to allow for the APM station.

Anyway: sorry, I don't have the tech ability to figure out if they could do it... my question is will the timing work out that way? Will AA wait for Sat 3 to kick in to redo T3, or redo it right after OGT completion and presumably possibly wait for the APM? They will have to do it eventually, since there's no APM without T3 rebuild (as we talked about before).

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