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nomorerjs
Posts: 794
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 10:24 am

Re: United Airlines Network Thread 2018

Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:41 pm

Fargo wrote:
gwrudolph wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:

This is too simplistic.

ORD is UA's jack of all trades hub. It has a massive domestic network as well as service to many cities in Europe and Asia, and service to Mexico and Brazil.
SFO is UA's Asia's gateway with significant domestic and European service.
EWR is UA's Europe gateway with significant domestic and Asian service.
IAH is UA's Latin America gateway with significant domestic service, a few Europe routes and an NRT flight.
DEN is UA's Rocky Mountain gateway and 2nd largest domestic hub, with an NRT, seasonal LHR, and FRA (coming soon) flight.
LAX and IAD are focus cities that cater more to O&D than connections though that seems to be shifting at IAD.

If you are UA, where would you put those brand new aircraft at first? SFO and EWR have the largest numbers of long haul flights and have the best mix of O&D and connections of the hub. It makes perfect sense.

ORD is the most well rounded UA hub and as such has a slightly higher emphasis on domestic connections. It will get them, but I can see SFO and EWR being a higher priority because it has a higher ratio of O&D to connections and O&D traffic is typically higher yield.

IAH is just as international as EWR or SFO for the UA network, but the majority of its international network is short haul and medium haul. This is no urgent need for brand new long haul aircraft based on that. The long haul flights to/from IAH are typically operated on pre-merger CO 777's which are not as archaic as the pre-merger UA ones. The 767-300 also does the job pretty well for the South America network. Putting something like 787-1000 is way too many seats for routes like IAH-SCL/GRU/GIG/LIM. IAH is ok for now.

DEN is self explanatory.

LAX and IAD have some high yielding international flights but I would think it would be harder to base those aircraft there because they dont have the number of premium long hauls that EWR and SFO have.

Their decision makes sense to me.


Honestly, I think their strategy is more about getting the right-sized and right efficiency aircraft positioned for the missions a particular hub is built around. Most of their long dense routes (perfect for the 77W) are from EWR and SFO while many of their long thinner routes (perfect for the 788/9) are from SFO, LAX, and IAD. They are also wisely concentrating some of these smaller fleets in certain hubs to make sure they have maximum operational flexibility and crew resourcing efficiency. The 763 and 77E/As work perfectly for most of ORD's missions, so they use the 77Ws and 788/9s where they make the most impact.

I suspect once the 788/9/10s fleet is 60 frames, you might start to see more of them at ORD and/or IAH, but I really don't think they need the 77W at ORD, IAH, or IAD as much as they need them at EWR and SFO. Since the fleet isn't going to ever grow beyond 18, I doubt you'll ever see them in any big way at ORD, IAH, or IAD.


It’s not so much the 77W’s, I’m more surprised we don’t see any UA 787’s at ORD at all. Granted, I suspect we’ll see some in due time. If UA were to launch ORD-TLV (which I have to imagine is on the horizon, given UA’s recent expansion at TLV and Chicago now being the largest unserved market in the US from Israel), I could see it being 3-4x weekly on a 789 to start.

Maybe if UA orders more 788’s to replace the 767’s, they’ll end up in Chicago as well.


ORD is the only hub that doesn’t see the 787. AA is promoting the plane for ORD-LHR / International flights in news releases.

ORD rarely sees the 77W which would be great for HKG, but no regularly scheduled service on any routes.

ORD doesn’t see the Max, but that may be good.

ORD has not seen a new long-haul route in years while all other hubs have.

UA seems to be fine using 20+ year old planes at ORD and letting partners expand (NZ, TP, AV, NH to HND, LH 2nd to MUC, etc.).
 
heretothere
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:58 am

I’m disappointed to see that UA still has a domestic 777 on EWR-MAD next summer. I was hoping those cattle cars were done with transatlantic. Hopefully it’ll be a 787-10 before too long...
 
Fargo
Posts: 131
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:41 am

nomorerjs wrote:
Fargo wrote:
gwrudolph wrote:

Honestly, I think their strategy is more about getting the right-sized and right efficiency aircraft positioned for the missions a particular hub is built around. Most of their long dense routes (perfect for the 77W) are from EWR and SFO while many of their long thinner routes (perfect for the 788/9) are from SFO, LAX, and IAD. They are also wisely concentrating some of these smaller fleets in certain hubs to make sure they have maximum operational flexibility and crew resourcing efficiency. The 763 and 77E/As work perfectly for most of ORD's missions, so they use the 77Ws and 788/9s where they make the most impact.

I suspect once the 788/9/10s fleet is 60 frames, you might start to see more of them at ORD and/or IAH, but I really don't think they need the 77W at ORD, IAH, or IAD as much as they need them at EWR and SFO. Since the fleet isn't going to ever grow beyond 18, I doubt you'll ever see them in any big way at ORD, IAH, or IAD.


It’s not so much the 77W’s, I’m more surprised we don’t see any UA 787’s at ORD at all. Granted, I suspect we’ll see some in due time. If UA were to launch ORD-TLV (which I have to imagine is on the horizon, given UA’s recent expansion at TLV and Chicago now being the largest unserved market in the US from Israel), I could see it being 3-4x weekly on a 789 to start.

Maybe if UA orders more 788’s to replace the 767’s, they’ll end up in Chicago as well.


ORD is the only hub that doesn’t see the 787. AA is promoting the plane for ORD-LHR / International flights in news releases.

ORD rarely sees the 77W which would be great for HKG, but no regularly scheduled service on any routes.

ORD doesn’t see the Max, but that may be good.

ORD has not seen a new long-haul route in years while all other hubs have.

UA seems to be fine using 20+ year old planes at ORD and letting partners expand (NZ, TP, AV, NH to HND, LH 2nd to MUC, etc.).


You know, for being Chicago’s “hometown airline”, it would appear from a distance (without knowing the finer details) that UA sure hasn’t been investing a lot of resources into ORD in recent years, and it took a lot of arm twisting to get the new leases for the global terminal.

No 787’s/77W’s, lowest % of mainline in their entire network, no new long haul routes in a while (despite routes such as seasonal ORD-ATH, which AA launched, and ORD-TLV being in demand). There has to be a reason beyond merely limited resources. Is it because of the competition with AA? Would a stand alone UA hub at ORD get more attention?
 
MSPNWA
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:55 am

Fargo wrote:
nomorerjs wrote:
Fargo wrote:

It’s not so much the 77W’s, I’m more surprised we don’t see any UA 787’s at ORD at all. Granted, I suspect we’ll see some in due time. If UA were to launch ORD-TLV (which I have to imagine is on the horizon, given UA’s recent expansion at TLV and Chicago now being the largest unserved market in the US from Israel), I could see it being 3-4x weekly on a 789 to start.

Maybe if UA orders more 788’s to replace the 767’s, they’ll end up in Chicago as well.


ORD is the only hub that doesn’t see the 787. AA is promoting the plane for ORD-LHR / International flights in news releases.

ORD rarely sees the 77W which would be great for HKG, but no regularly scheduled service on any routes.

ORD doesn’t see the Max, but that may be good.

ORD has not seen a new long-haul route in years while all other hubs have.

UA seems to be fine using 20+ year old planes at ORD and letting partners expand (NZ, TP, AV, NH to HND, LH 2nd to MUC, etc.).


You know, for being Chicago’s “hometown airline”, it would appear from a distance (without knowing the finer details) that UA sure hasn’t been investing a lot of resources into ORD in recent years, and it took a lot of arm twisting to get the new leases for the global terminal.

No 787’s/77W’s, lowest % of mainline in their entire network, no new long haul routes in a while (despite routes such as seasonal ORD-ATH, which AA launched, and ORD-TLV being in demand). There has to be a reason beyond merely limited resources. Is it because of the competition with AA? Would a stand alone UA hub at ORD get more attention?


-1st Polaris Lounge
-rapidly growing percentage of Polaris seats that eclipses other hubs (though unfortunately can't be purposely booked yet)
-growing like a weed domestically
-long-term terminal plans are strong

It's not all rosy, but it's not bad as a whole. ORD is getting a lot of love from UA in less prestigious areas.
 
dmstorm22
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:43 am

redrooster3 wrote:
I was hoping for United starting up IST. Is TK codeshare too good to compete a little and start flying to IST?


Seems like that is just a black hole for US airlines. DL has gamely tried to make JFK-IST work, but even that became seasonal and then axed.

If the country stabilizes I can see UA trying it from EWR in future, but right now UA would seem to want to grow W. EU and Long-haul more as priorities.
 
VC10er
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread 2018

Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:40 am

Are there international destinations that UA knows they get the most and least non-American Fliers- due in most part because they know how far they lag the preferred national carriers in reputation?
Point being someone in Switzerland may avoid UA over Swiss given the gap perception: clearly a Polaris 78J from ZRH to connect at EWR may not be so bad in the near future.
Net: United must be wanting a piece of the overseas traffic and have those fliers happier about the prospect than a moan...which it is now in many international destinations. Ive only ever heard UA is very much preferred out of TLV (word of mouth only!
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
Fargo
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread 2018

Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:51 am

VC10er wrote:
Are there international destinations that UA knows they get the most and least non-American Fliers- due in most part because they know how far they lag the preferred national carriers in reputation?
Point being someone in Switzerland may avoid UA over Swiss given the gap perception: clearly a Polaris 78J from ZRH to connect at EWR may not be so bad in the near future.


Not quite sure what the question is here, but UA does have the best foreign partners of the US3 IMO due to being in the Star Alliance (the largest and, in my opinion, the best alliance). Perhaps that helps with brand perception?

VC10er wrote:
I've only ever heard UA is very much preferred out of TLV (word of mouth only!)


Which makes me wonder if ORD-TLV is up next.
 
Fargo
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread 2018

Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:57 am

MSPNWA wrote:
Fargo wrote:
nomorerjs wrote:

ORD is the only hub that doesn’t see the 787. AA is promoting the plane for ORD-LHR / International flights in news releases.

ORD rarely sees the 77W which would be great for HKG, but no regularly scheduled service on any routes.

ORD doesn’t see the Max, but that may be good.

ORD has not seen a new long-haul route in years while all other hubs have.

UA seems to be fine using 20+ year old planes at ORD and letting partners expand (NZ, TP, AV, NH to HND, LH 2nd to MUC, etc.).


You know, for being Chicago’s “hometown airline”, it would appear from a distance (without knowing the finer details) that UA sure hasn’t been investing a lot of resources into ORD in recent years, and it took a lot of arm twisting to get the new leases for the global terminal.

No 787’s/77W’s, lowest % of mainline in their entire network, no new long haul routes in a while (despite routes such as seasonal ORD-ATH, which AA launched, and ORD-TLV being in demand). There has to be a reason beyond merely limited resources. Is it because of the competition with AA? Would a stand alone UA hub at ORD get more attention?


-1st Polaris Lounge
-rapidly growing percentage of Polaris seats that eclipses other hubs (though unfortunately can't be purposely booked yet)
-growing like a weed domestically
-long-term terminal plans are strong

It's not all rosy, but it's not bad as a whole. ORD is getting a lot of love from UA in less prestigious areas.


True, but a lot of that domestic growth has been in frequency and not in overall destinations.

I do expect that once the new Global Terminal is up and running, UA will be much more active internationally as theoretically, ORD will become a much easier and more desirable connecting point for international flights compared to congested coastal gateways like EWR and SFO. Not saying ORD will surpass those airports in international traffic, but the new Global Terminal will probably be superior to what EWR and SFO offer.
 
royroy
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread 2018

Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:10 am

Do you know if UA have any further expansion plans at LHR? Besides moving DEN to year round?
 
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intotheair
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread 2018

Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:34 am

royroy wrote:
Do you know if UA have any further expansion plans at LHR? Besides moving DEN to year round?


DEN is staying seasonal. There's not much more UA can do at LHR unless if they acquire more slots.

When's the last time they even did that? When CO moved everything from LGW?
300 319 320 321 332 333 345 346 717 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 752 753 762 763 772 788 789 CR2 CR7 CR9 Q400 E175 DC10 MD82 MD90
AA AF AS AY AZ B6 BA BR DL F9 FI GA HA KF LH MI QX SK SN SQ UA US VY WN
 
VC10er
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread 2018

Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:01 am

VC10er wrote:
Are there international destinations that UA knows they get the most and least non-American Fliers- due in most part because they know how far they lag the preferred national carriers in reputation?
Point being someone in Switzerland may avoid UA over Swiss given the gap perception: clearly a Polaris 78J from ZRH to connect at EWR may not be so bad in the near future.
Net: United must be wanting a piece of the overseas traffic and have those fliers happier about the prospect than a moan...which it is now in many international destinations. Ive only ever heard UA is very much preferred out of TLV (word of mouth only!


No problem- I had a problem writing the question! Let’s say United flies more than once into a single airport/country (let’s use Germany as an example). Most Germans would (I assume) think that Lufthansa is waaay better than UA. But soon, ALL United aircraft will be flying into Germany with all brand new interiors and service- even brand new 78J’s. Question: Could the reputation gap be closed between LH & UA enough, that a German might actually proactively choose to buy United to the USA - and not be 89% Americans flying home?
In other words- will a totally revamped United be “good enough” to buy, in the way many Americans chose LH over UA or AF over Delta, or BA over AA, etc?

I imagine 2-3 businessmen, in suits, in Frankfurt having a beer after a long hard day Deutsche Bank (I know, cliche!) and one says “I’ve been flying United to Newark recently in their new Polaris and I actually prefer it over Lufthansa!”
The 2 others choke and beer shoots through their noses!
But eventually can a US airline achieve success among international native consumers?
As my Isreali friends say “Israeli’s LOVE United!”— but that could just be a referendum on El Al???

At the true core of my question is: if UA needs growth, winning the USA is not the “only” marketplace where they can make gains.
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
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United787
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread 2018

Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:52 pm

VC10er: I think any airline from the US will always have an uphill battle when competing against the "flag" carrier of a European country in their home turf. For the most part, I think Europeans have much more nationalistic biased towards their own carriers and products in general. Americans don't tend to have the same bias. I would argue Americans still tend to put a higher value on something that is "imported", even airlines.

IMHO, with the exception of Swiss, as you mentioned, I don't think European airlines are any better than DL or UA. I have flown LH often in Business and Economy and I think is UA is far superior except in the service consistency. But don't tell that to my wife's German co-worker. He will only fly LH when flying back home to Germany.
 
FSDan
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread 2018

Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:39 pm

heretothere wrote:
I’m disappointed to see that UA still has a domestic 777 on EWR-MAD next summer. I was hoping those cattle cars were done with transatlantic. Hopefully it’ll be a 787-10 before too long...


Yeah, it looks like EWR-MAD is going to be the last remaining intercontinental 77A route... UA may think the 78J is more premium than the market needs, and the 764s (the other likely replacement, IMO) are stretched thin in the current S19 schedule.
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FSDan
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread 2018

Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:13 pm

Fargo wrote:
You know, for being Chicago’s “hometown airline”, it would appear from a distance (without knowing the finer details) that UA sure hasn’t been investing a lot of resources into ORD in recent years, and it took a lot of arm twisting to get the new leases for the global terminal.

No 787’s/77W’s


As others have pointed out, this is largely because the 763 and 772 fit the international network from ORD very well. There's not as great a need for 787s or 77Ws at ORD compared to the need for those aircraft at SFO and EWR.

Fargo wrote:
lowest % of mainline in their entire network


While I agree that UA's ORD hub is too heavy on the RJs, I think its standing in that regard when compared to other UA hubs is largely because of geography. ORD is within a 2-hour flight of a huge amount of small towns in the Great Plains, the Midwest, the South, and the Northeast, so it makes sense that there are a lot of 50-seaters there. Just look at this list of destinations served from ORD and no other UA hub: SLN, DLH, RST, CGI, CMX, CWA, EAU, GRB, ATW, PIA, UIN, SPI, EVV, SBN, FWA, AZO, LAN, MKG, MBS, FNT, PAH, ERI... That's not to mention the many other similarly-sized destinations that see service to ORD along with just one other UA hub: YWG, YQB, LNK, FSD, BIS, FAR, CID, COU, MLI, CHA, JAN, MOB, ILM, CKB, LWB, ROA, SHD, CHO, SCE, MDT, ABE, AVP, BGR... All in all, lots of RJ-type markets feeding into the ORD hub.

Fargo wrote:
no new long haul routes in a while

There has to be a reason beyond merely limited resources. Is it because of the competition with AA? Would a stand alone UA hub at ORD get more attention?


I think it's less because of competition with AA and more because of competition with other UA hubs. In every direction except North, UA has a better positioned gateway to a respective long haul region. UA's ORD hub is very well-rounded and has service to the biggest primary international business markets: GRU, LHR, CDG, FRA, NRT, PEK, PVG, HKG... That's much more than can be said of AA's ORD hub.
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LAXintl
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread 2018

Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:16 pm

Look at 2019 summer fleet assignments.

Image

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DtrA_lUU0AAzIB4.jpg:large
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VC10er
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread 2018

Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:22 pm

United787 wrote:
VC10er: I think any airline from the US will always have an uphill battle when competing against the "flag" carrier of a European country in their home turf. For the most part, I think Europeans have much more nationalistic biased towards their own carriers and products in general. Americans don't tend to have the same bias. I would argue Americans still tend to put a higher value on something that is "imported", even airlines.

IMHO, with the exception of Swiss, as you mentioned, I don't think European airlines are any better than DL or UA. I have flown LH often in Business and Economy and I think is UA is far superior except in the service consistency. But don't tell that to my wife's German co-worker. He will only fly LH when flying back home to Germany.


I wholeheartedly believe you are right- “maybe” (and this is just a guess, PanAm during its heyday would have attracted non-American, international pax?)
But I don’t foresee a German proactively choose UA over Lufthansa- but maybe they won’t be as perplexed when they see “operated by United?” My ONLY suggestion was could there be a slight shift in the “US Carriers suck” maxim to “If I don’t fly my national airline to the US the “NEW” United is pretty darn good” and if the shift was a few percentage points: that could add up. (All this relies on UA living up to all its promises)
I actually think the fact I used Germany as an example was a bad idea- but there is a lot more of Europe (and the world) to draw pax from.

I recall during the “Battleship” days I was in London on biz and saw a fully decked out “Battleship Grey United” London taxi. I thought- what a waste of money: and at that time there was NO WAY to woo away a UK business traveler from British or Virgin. However, today “if” they got a Polaris seat on a 77W or upcoming 78J, they may actually tell a friend “United wasn’t so awful after all”- I agree many European airlines do not live up to the Euro reputation-I’d gladly take UA over Alitalia...also Star connection options are indeed astonishing - and from so many UA destinations.
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread 2018

Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:04 pm

UA decided to open DEN 787 pilot base effective May 2019. Will cover the existing NRT and new FRA flights. (LAX base will continue to fly the seasonal LHR).
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
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UPlog
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread 2018

Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:19 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Look at 2019 summer fleet assignments.


Fantastic info. Thanks for posting.

A few things I noted:
> Quite a few domestic legs including on the new 787-10
> The CO 772s have finally spread their wings beyond EWR/IAD. Suppose that is not possible with merged FA crews.
> Those 763s seem busy. Have heard reliability has been a challenge for the fleet.
> Sole international trip for the high density 772 is EWR-MAD. Guess the 787-10 took over the other routes flown in 2018.
 
joeblow10
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread 2018

Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:21 pm

Maybe I just had completely missed this in the past few months, but DEN-OGG going from a 757 to a 777 - no small increase in capacity there!
 
ncflyer
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread 2018

Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:06 pm

Wonder what folks on this thread think of the rumor on the cleveland thread that CLE May have a temporary increase in UA capacity (how much unknown…) to relieve ORD as ORD undergoes its multi-year terminal modernization. Make sense? Seem possible?
 
FSDan
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread 2018

Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:21 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Look at 2019 summer fleet assignments.

Image

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DtrA_lUU0AAzIB4.jpg:large


Thanks for posting, very interesting! Most of this is already loaded, but there are a few differences:
  • EWR-LHR currently loaded as 1x 763 + 4x 764 - looks like that will reverse to 4x 763 + 1x 764 (maybe with some high-J 763s allocated specifically to this route)
  • EWR-CDG #2 currently loaded as 763, looks like that will change to 764
  • EWR-TXL currently loaded as 764, looks like that will change to 763
  • EWR-MUC currently loaded as 763, looks like that will change to 764
  • The IAH-ORD-EWR-IAH 772 triangle isn't loaded yet
  • SFO-IAD widebodies aren't loaded yet

Also, it seems weird that on the domestic 763 routes, both IAH-IAD and IAD-IAH are listed, while no other domestic pairing is listed that way... I wonder if one is supposed to be IAH-EWR? That route almost always sees a 763 in each direction daily.

It's nice to see the domestic 772s doing more hub-hub flying plus DEN-OGG. Doesn't look like BOS will see any this summer, however.
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calpsafltskeds
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread 2018

Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:03 pm

Eff 3/31/19 GUM-NRT is going from 772A to 738 service. Pretty sure this was done last Summer and may have created a cargo movement issue.
Nice bump to FCO service going from 767 to 772 on EWR and IAD.
No mention of which routes will get the 76L (high J units - several should be flying by Summer). One would think they would be scheduled on specific routes instead of being floated to avoid oversales.
Not sure, but are these upgrades from 2018? IAD-MAD/BCN to 767, EWR-MAN to 764.
I see sCO 772ER ORD-PEK/HKG, ORD's longest flights. I believe the sCO units have more legs than the sUA units. I wonder if UA will try to lock in Polaris units on these flights - they haven't done that in the past during 767 mod programs.
 
FSDan
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread 2018

Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:22 pm

calpsafltskeds wrote:
Not sure, but are these upgrades from 2018? IAD-MAD/BCN to 767, EWR-MAN to 764.


IAD-MAD and IAD-BCN both operated with the 763 at various times last summer. EWR-MAN was a 752, so the 764 is a nice upgauge.

calpsafltskeds wrote:
I see sCO 772ER ORD-PEK/HKG, ORD's longest flights. I believe the sCO units have more legs than the sUA units.


Someone else did recently confirm the sCO 772s have better range/payload. So it makes a lot of sense to get them on ORD-HKG. I think having them on ORD-FRA #1 and ORD-PEK is mostly just for good utilization. ORD-PVG is longer than ORD-PEK and is still going to see the sUA 772.

calpsafltskeds wrote:
I wonder if UA will try to lock in Polaris units on these flights - they haven't done that in the past during 767 mod programs.


With regard to Premium Plus, it was announced that the upgraded 772s will be flying the following routes by Summer:
SFO-CDG
SFO-FRA #2
SFO-PEK
SFO-AKL
IAD-CDG
IAD-BRU
IAD-TLV

The seat maps on united.com also show SFO-IAD (RON at SFO) with Polaris seats if you look at dates in May. I assume that'll carry over to June and onwards. Those routes require 9 frames and there should be at least 11 or 12 converted by that point, so I wouldn't be surprised to see IAD-LHR and SFO-LHR #2 get upgraded to the Polaris/Premium Plus birds as well.
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jayunited
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread 2018

Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:13 am

FSDan wrote:
Someone else did recently confirm the sCO 772s have better range/payload. So it makes a lot of sense to get them on ORD-HKG. I think having them on ORD-FRA #1 and ORD-PEK is mostly just for good utilization. ORD-PVG is longer than ORD-PEK and is still going to see the sUA 772.

calpsafltskeds wrote:
I wonder if UA will try to lock in Polaris units on these flights - they haven't done that in the past during 767 mod programs.


With regard to Premium Plus, it was announced that the upgraded 772s will be flying the following routes by Summer:
SFO-CDG
SFO-FRA #2
SFO-PEK
SFO-AKL
IAD-CDG
IAD-BRU
IAD-TLV

The seat maps on united.com also show SFO-IAD (RON at SFO) with Polaris seats if you look at dates in May. I assume that'll carry over to June and onwards. Those routes require 9 frames and there should be at least 11 or 12 converted by that point, so I wouldn't be surprised to see IAD-LHR and SFO-LHR #2 get upgraded to the Polaris/Premium Plus birds as well.


The 77Ys do have better range and payload over the 77U/Qs but I think the main reason why UA is moving some 77Y into the ORD market is because those Polaris/Premium plus birds will be committed to the routes already announced. Since UA did not do this with the Polaris 763s this leads me to believe that although there might be 11 or 12 frames finished by summer 1or 2 of those frames may be considered spares. I could be wrong but I think UA has received a lot of complaints over their lack of dedicated routes for the Polaris 763s. So instead with the 77Es they are placing them on dedicated routes which brings me back to my comment about spares. Should a Polaris/Premium Plus bird go out of service I think UA's first choice would be to replace it with another Polaris/Premium Plus 77E. If true I would think the only way a non Polaris/Premium Plus bird would fly any of these routes is if the only options are an IPTE 77E or cancellation. I think under those circumstances UA would choose the IPTE bird but can you image thinking your boarding a Polaris/Premium Plus bird only to look at the seat map on the app the day of departure or a few hours before departure and see 2-4-2 in business class and no Premium Plus.
 
strfyr51
Posts: 3110
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: United Airlines Network Thread 2018

Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:28 am

heretothere wrote:
I’m disappointed to see that UA still has a domestic 777 on EWR-MAD next summer. I was hoping those cattle cars were done with transatlantic. Hopefully it’ll be a 787-10 before too long...

For the sake of argument? Why? United has to use their planes where the can generate tne most income.
Since they have ample capacity at EWR? Nobody In and Around the Area is suffering from Lack of Capacity.
 
heretothere
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:50 pm

Re: United Airlines Network Thread 2018

Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:06 am

strfyr51 wrote:
heretothere wrote:
I’m disappointed to see that UA still has a domestic 777 on EWR-MAD next summer. I was hoping those cattle cars were done with transatlantic. Hopefully it’ll be a 787-10 before too long...

For the sake of argument? Why? United has to use their planes where the can generate tne most income.
Since they have ample capacity at EWR? Nobody In and Around the Area is suffering from Lack of Capacity.


Simply because I view the domestic 777s as a subpar product for transatlantic flights. Though I’m sure UA won’t have any trouble filling it next summer. But I’d be surprised if UA thinks the deployment is optimal beyond next summer.
 
codc10
Posts: 2284
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

Re: United Airlines Network Thread 2018

Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:09 am

LAXintl wrote:
UA decided to open DEN 787 pilot base effective May 2019. Will cover the existing NRT and new FRA flights. (LAX base will continue to fly the seasonal LHR).


23 Captains and 45 first officers to begin... about right to over the proposed year-round flying, and some more vacancies will follow. Most are expecting DEN787 to go VERY senior.

Huge bid across the board...

One IAHLHR goes to B789 next summer, so that's another longhaul for the domicile.
 
dmstorm22
Posts: 375
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:49 pm

Re: United Airlines Network Thread 2018

Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:25 am

FSDan wrote:

Thanks for posting, very interesting! Most of this is already loaded, but there are a few differences:
  • EWR-LHR currently loaded as 1x 763 + 4x 764 - looks like that will reverse to 4x 763 + 1x 764 (maybe with some high-J 763s allocated specifically to this route)
  • EWR-CDG #2 currently loaded as 763, looks like that will change to 764
  • EWR-TXL currently loaded as 764, looks like that will change to 763
  • EWR-MUC currently loaded as 763, looks like that will change to 764
  • The IAH-ORD-EWR-IAH 772 triangle isn't loaded yet
  • SFO-IAD widebodies aren't loaded yet

Also, it seems weird that on the domestic 763 routes, both IAH-IAD and IAD-IAH are listed, while no other domestic pairing is listed that way... I wonder if one is supposed to be IAH-EWR? That route almost always sees a 763 in each direction daily.

It's nice to see the domestic 772s doing more hub-hub flying plus DEN-OGG. Doesn't look like BOS will see any this summer, however.


The change of EWR-LHR back to 4x 763 and 1x 764 jumped out to me as well. I had thought the plan was to shift more of the 763 flying to IAD. Is it that summer isn't actually a driver of traffic to a buisness-heavy route like NYC-LON?

For the rest, is the IAH-ORD-EWR-IAH not loaded? I've been flying the EWR-IAH route every week fora couple months now. Really nice to get a 77E on that route. Maybe the others haven't loaded yet?
 
fun2fly
Posts: 1343
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:44 am

Re: United Airlines Network Thread 2018

Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:26 am

dmstorm22 wrote:
The change of EWR-LHR back to 4x 763 and 1x 764 jumped out to me as well. I had thought the plan was to shift more of the 763 flying to IAD. Is it that summer isn't actually a driver of traffic to a buisness-heavy route like NYC-LON?

For the rest, is the IAH-ORD-EWR-IAH not loaded? I've been flying the EWR-IAH route every week fora couple months now. Really nice to get a 77E on that route. Maybe the others haven't loaded yet?


What date is that effective? I'm still on the AM EWR>LHR in April that's a 764.

Could it be that the 763's dedicated to the EWR>LHR route are the rumored high density ones?
 
codc10
Posts: 2284
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

Re: United Airlines Network Thread 2018

Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:40 pm

fun2fly wrote:
dmstorm22 wrote:
The change of EWR-LHR back to 4x 763 and 1x 764 jumped out to me as well. I had thought the plan was to shift more of the 763 flying to IAD. Is it that summer isn't actually a driver of traffic to a buisness-heavy route like NYC-LON?

For the rest, is the IAH-ORD-EWR-IAH not loaded? I've been flying the EWR-IAH route every week fora couple months now. Really nice to get a 77E on that route. Maybe the others haven't loaded yet?


What date is that effective? I'm still on the AM EWR>LHR in April that's a 764.

Could it be that the 763's dedicated to the EWR>LHR route are the rumored high density ones?


The chart is a plan for the summer schedule, likely post-May. April schedules are nearly finalized.

The 46J 763s are likely headed to EWRLHR, but I’m not sure how many should be in service by summer.
 
wn676
Posts: 1630
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 5:33 am

Re: United Airlines Network Thread 2018

Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:29 pm

codc10 wrote:
fun2fly wrote:
dmstorm22 wrote:
The change of EWR-LHR back to 4x 763 and 1x 764 jumped out to me as well. I had thought the plan was to shift more of the 763 flying to IAD. Is it that summer isn't actually a driver of traffic to a buisness-heavy route like NYC-LON?

For the rest, is the IAH-ORD-EWR-IAH not loaded? I've been flying the EWR-IAH route every week fora couple months now. Really nice to get a 77E on that route. Maybe the others haven't loaded yet?


What date is that effective? I'm still on the AM EWR>LHR in April that's a 764.

Could it be that the 763's dedicated to the EWR>LHR route are the rumored high density ones?


The chart is a plan for the summer schedule, likely post-May. April schedules are nearly finalized.

The 46J 763s are likely headed to EWRLHR, but I’m not sure how many should be in service by summer.


I believe they are planning to have 6 or so operating by summer.
Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
 
FSDan
Posts: 1950
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Re: United Airlines Network Thread 2018

Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:46 pm

dmstorm22 wrote:
For the rest, is the IAH-ORD-EWR-IAH not loaded? I've been flying the EWR-IAH route every week fora couple months now. Really nice to get a 77E on that route. Maybe the others haven't loaded yet?


I was looking at May. In May there's a single IAH-ORD 77E flight loaded, but I don't see ORD-EWR or EWR-IAH yet. For June onwards, none of the three were loaded last time I looked.
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
masseybrown
Posts: 5220
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

Re: United Airlines Network Thread 2018

Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:50 pm

nomorerjs wrote:
ORD has not seen a new long-haul route in years while all other hubs have.

UA seems to be fine using 20+ year old planes at ORD ...


The old CLE schedulers must be working ORD these days.
 
codc10
Posts: 2284
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

Re: United Airlines Network Thread 2018

Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:30 pm

FSDan wrote:
dmstorm22 wrote:
For the rest, is the IAH-ORD-EWR-IAH not loaded? I've been flying the EWR-IAH route every week fora couple months now. Really nice to get a 77E on that route. Maybe the others haven't loaded yet?


I was looking at May. In May there's a single IAH-ORD 77E flight loaded, but I don't see ORD-EWR or EWR-IAH yet. For June onwards, none of the three were loaded last time I looked.


The 77Y looks to be replacing 77Q on EWR-GRU, and that frame currently turns EWR-ORD-EWR before going back to GRU. It would seem that effective the S19 schedule, both redeye arrivals turn to PEK/PVG and the return flights both make up the next evening's DEL/GRU. The domestic legs (some of which have not yet been filed) allow for equipment swaps.
 
dmstorm22
Posts: 375
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:49 pm

Re: United Airlines Network Thread 2018

Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:25 pm

FSDan wrote:
dmstorm22 wrote:
For the rest, is the IAH-ORD-EWR-IAH not loaded? I've been flying the EWR-IAH route every week fora couple months now. Really nice to get a 77E on that route. Maybe the others haven't loaded yet?


I was looking at May. In May there's a single IAH-ORD 77E flight loaded, but I don't see ORD-EWR or EWR-IAH yet. For June onwards, none of the three were loaded last time I looked.


On United.com now, seeing the same 77E EWR-IAH flight that I currently take on Monday's avaialble for booking in May still, but not out for summer booking (reverts to B752, or the flight is not there).

Every time I've taken it so far, it is purely rotational, like this week it was coming from doing HKG-EWR. I didn't notice where it was going to this time, but past week's it's been a mix (EZE, LHR)
 
User avatar
calpsafltskeds
Posts: 2699
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 1:29 am

Re: United Airlines Network Thread 2018

Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:57 am

It's a good move to operate the Polaris 772s on a specific routing. Part of the reason may be the variance between 772 configuration counts and new seating options.
The 763 Polaris vs. 2 class Diamond seats offered no PE, same seat count in BF and coach - easy to float these older units which can have some reliability issues.
772 Polaris configuration offers a more superior product than the sUA 772 BF product and PE. Worth the effort to differentiate service on important markets.

I noted recently that UA has put a hold on 21 seats for all 753 flights in case the old configuration was routed onto a 753 flight. A day or so out, the seat block was pulled when the aircraft was routed with a slimline unit.
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