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FA9295
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What makes a long-haul ultra low cost carrier (such as Norwegian or Scoot) successful?

Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:51 am

Recently, I came across fares for EWR-FCO route this summer and was shocked by the price difference between United and Norwegian: https://www.google.com/flights/#search; ... o;s=0;so=t

Obviously, I expected Norwegian's flight to be substantially cheaper, but $321 (Norwegian) vs $2779 (United)??? That's crazy!

With that in mind, I do know that legacy airlines in particular like to sell cheaper fares for round-trip itineraries, as can be seen here: https://www.google.com/flights/#search; ... 1;s=0;so=t

Also, on a separate note, I wonder if and when the U.S. will start up one of these carriers similar to Norwegian. Though, i'm sure UA, DL and AA would be fuming if this were to happen... :lol:
 
AirbusMDCFAN
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Re: What makes a long-haul ultra low cost carrier (such as Norwegian or Scoot) successful?

Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:01 am

FA9295 wrote:
Recently, I came across fares for EWR-FCO route this summer and was shocked by the price difference between United and Norwegian: https://www.google.com/flights/#search; ... o;s=0;so=t

Obviously, I expected Norwegian's flight to be substantially cheaper, but $321 (Norwegian) vs $2779 (United)??? That's crazy!

With that in mind, I do know that legacy airlines in particular like to sell cheaper fares for round-trip itineraries, as can be seen here: https://www.google.com/flights/#search; ... 1;s=0;so=t

Also, on a separate note, I wonder if and when the U.S. will start up one of these carriers similar to Norwegian. Though, i'm sure UA, DL and AA would be fuming if this were to happen... :lol:



While the United States does not have an ULCC that flies Trans Atlantic or Pacific yet, we do have a few ULCCs:

Spirit - from FLL their "long haul flying" is to: Lima, and California
Frontier - Unsure of what their "long haul flights" are
Allegiant - Unsure if they have any flights of 5 hours or more
Sun Country is busy transforming into an ULCC, and I am unsure if SY has any flying of 5 hours or more
 
AirbusMDCFAN
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Re: What makes a long-haul ultra low cost carrier (such as Norwegian or Scoot) successful?

Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:04 am

AirbusMDCFAN wrote:
FA9295 wrote:
Recently, I came across fares for EWR-FCO route this summer and was shocked by the price difference between United and Norwegian: https://www.google.com/flights/#search; ... o;s=0;so=t

Obviously, I expected Norwegian's flight to be substantially cheaper, but $321 (Norwegian) vs $2779 (United)??? That's crazy!

With that in mind, I do know that legacy airlines in particular like to sell cheaper fares for round-trip itineraries, as can be seen here: https://www.google.com/flights/#search; ... 1;s=0;so=t

Also, on a separate note, I wonder if and when the U.S. will start up one of these carriers similar to Norwegian. Though, i'm sure UA, DL and AA would be fuming if this were to happen... :lol:


What makes them successful is that they are just selling the seat on the aircraft with none of the frills included that you may except from the likes of DL, AA, UA or other European Airlines that fly across the Atlantic.

While the United States does not have an ULCC that flies Trans Atlantic yet, we do have a few ULCCs:

Spirit - from FLL their "long haul flying" is to: Lima, and California
Frontier - Unsure of what their "long haul flights" are
Allegiant - Unsure if they have any flights of 5 hours or more
Sun Country is busy transforming into an ULCC, and I am unsure if SY has any flying of 5 hours or more
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: What makes a long-haul ultra low cost carrier (such as Norwegian or Scoot) successful?

Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:17 am

The idea of an LCC is that passengers fly because it's cheap. They're not after passengers that would fly anyway, they're after passengers that otherwise wouldn't fly but because it's cheap they fly. Can't do that if you aren't cheap. Also they're not out to fly to every possible destination which legacies mostly are. LCCs aren't too picky on where they fly since their passengers generally aren't picky too. They just go where the cheapest flight goes, no matter where that is.

For a long time LCCs flew short-medium haul only, but that market has become saturated. The only market still relatively untouched by LCCs is long haul. Even today there's still a lot of room for expansion.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: What makes a long-haul ultra low cost carrier (such as Norwegian or Scoot) successful?

Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:50 am

PatrickZ80 wrote:
LCCs aren't too picky on where they fly

That's not even remotely true.

In fact, LCCs and ULCCs historically have put incredible effort, planning, timing (and sometimes even refurbishing) into selecting when and especially where they fly.

WN was famous for it. FR is famous for stretching the bounds between its advertised and actual destination.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
MaverickM11
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Re: What makes a long-haul ultra low cost carrier (such as Norwegian or Scoot) successful?

Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:12 am

I wouldn’t call either of them successful, or any longhaul ulcc at the moment.

FA9295 wrote:
Recently, I came across fares for EWR-FCO route this summer and was shocked by the price difference between United and Norwegian: https://www.google.com/flights/#search; ... o;s=0;so=t

Obviously, I expected Norwegian's flight to be substantially cheaper, but $321 (Norwegian) vs $2779 (United)??? That's crazy!

Airlines charge what they can get—although some carriers are simply out to lunch when it comes to revenue management and pricing. There’s no question UA drives a huge premium to DY in EWRCO, but absent further details, it’s tough to say whether a $2400 premium is legitimate.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
IndianicWorld
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Re: What makes a long-haul ultra low cost carrier (such as Norwegian or Scoot) successful?

Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:05 am

Given that there is no proof that the model is successful yet, we will wait and see how that pans out.

Many of the low cost carrier fares are also far from the full picture, given the extra cost for baggage, meals and seat selection which can be found which can often make a headline fare end up far less appealing in the end.

These carriers like DY have certainly caused disruption, but it’s a risky proposition moving into that space. Oil price increases will certainly make things far more challenging for a carrier like DY, which is already burdened by costs associated with its aggressive expansion.
 
Kikko19
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Re: What makes a long-haul ultra low cost carrier (such as Norwegian or Scoot) successful?

Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:11 am

Also some LCC mistakenly guessed that some legacy goes out of business after they enter the market (DY in scandinavia vs. SAS) but they now get reactions, also legacies have lcc products (no bag, no free seat, and soon no meal ) so the battle is getting on other grounds (no recline seats are coming to legacies) and pax will have to give up some comfort before guaranteed (10 ab on 777, 9 in a 33x? ).
 
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RWA380
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Re: What makes a long-haul ultra low cost carrier (such as Norwegian or Scoot) successful?

Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:28 am

AirbusMDCFAN wrote:
FA9295 wrote:
Recently, I came across fares for EWR-FCO route this summer and was shocked by the price difference between United and Norwegian: https://www.google.com/flights/#search; ... o;s=0;so=t

Obviously, I expected Norwegian's flight to be substantially cheaper, but $321 (Norwegian) vs $2779 (United)??? That's crazy!

With that in mind, I do know that legacy airlines in particular like to sell cheaper fares for round-trip itineraries, as can be seen here: https://www.google.com/flights/#search; ... 1;s=0;so=t

Also, on a separate note, I wonder if and when the U.S. will start up one of these carriers similar to Norwegian. Though, i'm sure UA, DL and AA would be fuming if this were to happen... :lol:



While the United States does not have an ULCC that flies Trans Atlantic or Pacific yet, we do have a few ULCCs:

Spirit - from FLL their "long haul flying" is to: Lima, and California
Frontier - Unsure of what their "long haul flights" are
Allegiant - Unsure if they have any flights of 5 hours or more
Sun Country is busy transforming into an ULCC, and I am unsure if SY has any flying of 5 hours or more


NK is flying SEA-FLL, I think their longest (mileage) domestic route.
F9 & G4 max out around 4 hour flights IIRC, of course there needs to be one exception, just so someone can prove me wrong.
SY is opening a MSP-LAX-HNL routing, 10 hours on a 738 to get to Hawaii, SY is expanding their limitations.
707 717 720 727-1/2 737-1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9 747-1/2/3/4 757-2/3 767-2/3/4 777-2/3 DC8 DC9 MD80/2/7/8 D10-1/3/4 M11 L10-1/2/5 A300/310/320
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Cointrin330
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Re: What makes a long-haul ultra low cost carrier (such as Norwegian or Scoot) successful?

Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:11 pm

I have had a couple of great flights on DY but I think the verdict is still out as to whether this is a long term success or a short term gain. Plenty of reports out there suggesting Norwegian is growing too fast and is barely breaking even. I am not opposed to ULCCs, but they don't have a great success rate and eventually help to make the travel experience more miserable for everyone as the legacy carriers knee jerk is to adopt some of their tools of the trade, like tighter leg room, fees for everything, etc..
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: What makes a long-haul ultra low cost carrier (such as Norwegian or Scoot) successful?

Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:18 pm

LCCs keep the cost structure low, Legacies talk about keeping the cost structure low. That is the difference.
All posts are just opinions.
 
dlphoenix
Posts: 127
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 7:30 am

Re: What makes a long-haul ultra low cost carrier (such as Norwegian or Scoot) successful?

Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:53 pm

FA9295 wrote:
Recently, I came across fares for EWR-FCO route this summer and was shocked by the price difference between United and Norwegian: https://www.google.com/flights/#search; ... o;s=0;so=t

Obviously, I expected Norwegian's flight to be substantially cheaper, but $321 (Norwegian) vs $2779 (United)??? That's crazy!

With that in mind, I do know that legacy airlines in particular like to sell cheaper fares for round-trip itineraries, as can be seen here: https://www.google.com/flights/#search; ... 1;s=0;so=t

Also, on a separate note, I wonder if and when the U.S. will start up one of these carriers similar to Norwegian. Though, i'm sure UA, DL and AA would be fuming if this were to happen... :lol:


The real price difference is significantly lower. UA prices each leg of a round trip at $657 which includes seat selection, a meal and a checked bag. They also offer $333 with a connection through IAD for price sensitive customers.
Bottom line:
1) LCCs focus on price sensitive customers, US legacies focus on those who will pay more for a premium. Te US legacies are very profitable, the Jury is still out regarding ULCCs.
2) I don't see a business sense in investing in a long haul US based LCC that focuses on international travel. It is a relatively small segment with a lot of competition.

Happy travels
DLP
 
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zkojq
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Re: What makes a long-haul ultra low cost carrier (such as Norwegian or Scoot) successful?

Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:20 pm

IndianicWorld wrote:
Given that there is no proof that the model is successful yet, we will wait and see how that pans out.

:checkmark: I'm still unconvinced on the viability of LHLC. Jetstar makes it work, as does Scoot, but there doesn't seem to be much evidence that the other big players are able to do so profitably. I suspect that all the creation of Level/Eurowings/Boost will do is to trash everyone's yields without doing a lot to grow the market.
First to fly the 787-9
 
gunnerman
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Re: What makes a long-haul ultra low cost carrier (such as Norwegian or Scoot) successful?

Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:37 pm

Long-haul LCCs like Scoot benefit from being a subsidiary of SQ which does the ordering of aircraft.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: What makes a long-haul ultra low cost carrier (such as Norwegian or Scoot) successful?

Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:05 pm

Perhaps a good definition of surviving is coming through a major recession or two. If so, it remains to be seen.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
ShinyAndChrome
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Re: What makes a long-haul ultra low cost carrier (such as Norwegian or Scoot) successful?

Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:50 pm

In the case of longhaul LCCs, I don’t think there’s necessarily a single answer as to whether or not the model is sustainable. More than most concepts, I think the nuances of the particular market a longhaul LCC operates in largely shape its viability. Even looking at the term itself, the average American’s idea of “long haul” likely differs from the average Australian’s so of course there will be market-specific factors to consider.

That said, I think it’s interesting so far that the most stable/successful examples people use of the long haul LCC model like AC Rouge, Jetstar, or Eurowings exist as sub-brands within a larger airline group.
 
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GE90man
Posts: 223
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 9:10 pm

Re: What makes a long-haul ultra low cost carrier (such as Norwegian or Scoot) successful?

Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:10 am

FA9295 wrote:
Recently, I came across fares for EWR-FCO route this summer and was shocked by the price difference between United and Norwegian: https://www.google.com/flights/#search; ... o;s=0;so=t

Obviously, I expected Norwegian's flight to be substantially cheaper, but $321 (Norwegian) vs $2779 (United)??? That's crazy!

With that in mind, I do know that legacy airlines in particular like to sell cheaper fares for round-trip itineraries, as can be seen here: https://www.google.com/flights/#search; ... 1;s=0;so=t

Also, on a separate note, I wonder if and when the U.S. will start up one of these carriers similar to Norwegian. Though, i'm sure UA, DL and AA would be fuming if this were to happen... :lol:

Holy.... over $2500 for a ticket from EWR-FCO??? That’s insane, especially considering many carriers often offer flights under 1000 from JFK depending on the time for economy. Even still, $2700 is completely insane
 
Janj
Posts: 53
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:35 pm

Re: What makes a long-haul ultra low cost carrier (such as Norwegian or Scoot) successful?

Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:21 am

If you search for a roundtrip, it's reduced to $1204 -- less than half of the absurdly priced one way fare.
https://www.google.com/flights/#search; ... 0;s=0;so=t
 
USAOZ
Posts: 443
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2017 4:34 am

Re: What makes a long-haul ultra low cost carrier (such as Norwegian or Scoot) successful?

Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:10 am

IndianicWorld wrote:
Given that there is no proof that the model is successful yet, we will wait and see how that pans out.

Many of the low cost carrier fares are also far from the full picture, given the extra cost for baggage, meals and seat selection which can be found which can often make a headline fare end up far less appealing in the end.

These carriers like DY have certainly caused disruption, but it’s a risky proposition moving into that space. Oil price increases will certainly make things far more challenging for a carrier like DY, which is already burdened by costs associated with its aggressive expansion.

Canada 3000 the 1st long haul lcc were very successful & then came sep 11. Apparently canada 3000 biggest dsy of sales was 10 sep 2001

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