Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

jetfuel · Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:46 pm

Americans largely do not leave the USA for vacation

alan3 · Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:47 pm

Forgive me but I couldn't find a recent similar discussion... Why doesn't the US have the same tradition of holiday leisure airlines, as in these examples from other countries.

Canada......Air Canada Rouge, Sunwing, Air Transat
UK......TUI-Thomson, Thomas Cook, and in the past Monarch, Brittania, etc.
France.....Corsair, XL Airways,.
Germany.....Condor
Switzerland......Edelweiss
Australia.......Jetstar
Netherlands.....TUI Fly
Turkey.....Corendon Airlines
Israel......Arkia, Sun D'Or
etc

Most holiday flights from the US (to Caribbean in winter, to Europe in summer) seem to be operated by the mainline carriers or low cost airlines but not specifically to seasonal leisure-market holiday airlines. There is Sun Country (SY), but it seems to be an outlier and dominated around one hub. I know in the past, American Trans Air ATA.

I know there are some charter airlines like Apple Vacations and Vacation Express, but not really airlines that can compare to the above list.

Is it because the US has a different history of leisure travel and doesn't have large-scale tour operators like TUI or Sunwing?

32andBelow · Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:52 pm

The airlines in the USA cover all the different facets of aviation. We don't have like flag carriers and vacation carriers. If you want to go to Hawaii or TLV or Omaha Nebraska you just take Delta.

ooslc · Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:55 pm

32andBelow wrote:
The airlines in the USA cover all the different facets of aviation. We don't have like flag carriers and vacation carriers. If you want to go to Hawaii or TLV or Omaha Nebraska you just take Delta.

I agree. IMHO, NK is about the most leisure airline the US has got, but it's not 100% leisure. All the carriers here go after every type of passenger, be it business or play or VFR.

alan3 · Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:56 pm

jetfuel wrote:
Americans largely do not leave the USA for vacation

Except for people from Minneapolis apparently since SY is the exception to the rule, flying seasonally to 26 Mexican and Caribbean destinations from MSP.

guyanam · Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:02 pm

jetfuel wrote:
Americans largely do not leave the USA for vacation

Really! I suspect that people living in Mexico and everywhere in the Caribbean except Cuba and Barbados would be shocked to hear this. The US market is far and way the largest source of tourism to the Caribbean and Mexico.

The reason for the lack of dominance by charters is that US leisure travel isn't dominated by large tour operators. Americans do their own shopping and increasing vehicles like Expedia facilitate this.

There is also a much larger VFR market from the USA to the Caribbean as well as travel from Mexico and the Caribbean to the USA. There are also decent levels of business travel so for all of these reasons travel isn't as seasonal as it is from Canada and northern Europe, where it is heavily winter dominated making scheduled service less interesting. In fact the only slow period in US Caribbean travel is may and mid Sept to mid Nov.

In fact Jamaica generates 12 daily flights from MIA/FLL and 4-5 from ATL and CLT. The DR can generate as many as 25 daily from JFK/EWR..

Samrnpage · Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:02 pm

Being from the UK, do the US3 and main US airlines do package holidays like the european leisure airlines? For example TUI you can book flights, hotel, food and travel all under one price ?

aviatorcraig · Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:03 pm

I don't know the American market very well but surely Allegiant would be called a "vacation airline" no?

guyanam · Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:05 pm

Samrnpage wrote:
Being from the UK, do the US3 and main US airlines do package holidays like the european leisure airlines? For example TUI you can book flights, hotel, food and travel all under one price ?

Americans don't necessarily want to do all of that in one package, so tour operators are less popular.

Samrnpage · Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:07 pm

guyanam wrote:
Samrnpage wrote:
Being from the UK, do the US3 and main US airlines do package holidays like the european leisure airlines? For example TUI you can book flights, hotel, food and travel all under one price ?

Americans don't necessarily want to do all of that in one package, so tour operators are less popular.

Simple question, why not? because its very cheap. 7 night hotel, both flights and travel to the airport in Kavos is £539 each at the moment with TUI. I think the US3 are being clever here.

alan3 · Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:12 pm

aviatorcraig wrote:
I don't know the American market very well but surely Allegiant would be called a "vacation airline" no?

Allegiant is probably still considered an LCC, or more specifically an ULCC. I guess a main key in this if people are booking "packaged travel". Yes, they do have lots of routes to Florida and get lots of leisure travel that way, but they don't fly outside the US and don't even fly to Hawaii anymore.

rta · Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:15 pm

32andBelow wrote:
If you want to go to Hawaii or TLV or Omaha Nebraska you just take Delta.

Yep, and I prefer that, because the experience is consistent and you can earn points for all your travels.

Also, vacation packages aren't really popular here (heard they are more popular in Europe)

32andBelow · Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:18 pm

Samrnpage wrote:
Being from the UK, do the US3 and main US airlines do package holidays like the european leisure airlines? For example TUI you can book flights, hotel, food and travel all under one price ?

Theres a lot of places we go where you can get 1 week, or one week all inclusive (mexico, bahamas, cruises, 1 week in hawaii, etc.) We just usually pay separate for airfare. Since the USA doesn't have "flag carriers" everyone covers whatever routes they can make money on. Allegiant does packages. And you can sometimes get packages on other airlines. I just saw a weekend Vegas package on B6 with airfare.

ual763 · Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:29 pm

Samrnpage wrote:
Being from the UK, do the US3 and main US airlines do package holidays like the european leisure airlines? For example TUI you can book flights, hotel, food and travel all under one price ?

To answer your question, yes. I can only speak for United, but they have specific websites such as United Cruises, United Vacations etc. they offer package deals on Airfare, Hotels, Cruises, Rentals, etc. They advertise them all the time too on their website, ff emails, and inflight magazines. You don't see them that much on tv though.

Arion640 · Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:34 pm

Holiday airlines seem to be a very European/Canadian thing due to the cold climates. Americans like to drive everywhere and may just drive upstate for a holiday etc. Or if you live in New York you may fly to LA etc, it just doesn't seem to be the same culture.

dz09 · Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:40 pm

most americans do not take vacations and the lucky ones only have a week a year. a major vacation would be a trip to Disneyworld. there is simply no demand for leisure airlines and the little there is is covered by regular airlines. a road trip is basically your standard American vacation.

winginit · Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:42 pm

A good quantity of the American travelling public accrue frequent flier miles and points so that they can redeem them for family vacations. That being the case, you're likely to use those points on the same carriers that you fly for business. All of the major US carrier's routes to Hawaii are made up of far more redemption traffic than most other routes.

dz09 · Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:42 pm

winginit wrote:
A good quantity of the American travelling public accrue frequent flier miles and points so that they can redeem them for family vacations. That being the case, you're likely to use those points on the same carriers that you fly for business. All of the major US carrier's routes to Hawaii are made up of far more redemption traffic than most other routes.

that is true. I take my entire family on a summer trip to Europe every year using my miles.

malev2012 · Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:50 pm

Americans have less vacation, and there a multiple legacy carriers, crowding out the field for pure leisure airlines.

reffado · Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:56 pm

Arion640 wrote:
Holiday airlines seem to be a very European/Canadian thing due to the cold climates. Americans like to drive everywhere and may just drive upstate for a holiday etc. Or if you live in New York you may fly to LA etc, it just doesn't seem to be the same culture.

While I can't speak for the statistics, this sounds accurate to me. Last big vacation I took, I chose to drive the 5,000 miles instead of catching multiple flights. Saw much more, spent much less, and hours behind the wheel somehow still isn't as annoying as half the time in lines at airports. And, at times, I'd go miles without seeing a car with plates from the state I was actually in. Roadtripping is still very popular here, although one could argue that's because Europe has much more attractive airfares for continental travel most of the time, at least from what I've seen.

bagoldex · Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:57 pm

Samrnpage wrote:
guyanam wrote:
Samrnpage wrote:
Being from the UK, do the US3 and main US airlines do package holidays like the european leisure airlines? For example TUI you can book flights, hotel, food and travel all under one price ?

Americans don't necessarily want to do all of that in one package, so tour operators are less popular.

Simple question, why not? because its very cheap. 7 night hotel, both flights and travel to the airport in Kavos is £539 each at the moment with TUI. I think the US3 are being clever here.

The few Americans who do travel overseas with any regularity tend to be more affluent and less price sensitive.

777PHX · Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:59 pm

guyanam wrote:
jetfuel wrote:
Americans largely do not leave the USA for vacation

Really! I suspect that people living in Mexico and everywhere in the Caribbean except Cuba and Barbados would be shocked to hear this. The US market is far and way the largest source of tourism to the Caribbean and Mexico.

He's not incorrect. The percentage of Americans that leave the country for whatever reason is far lower than other English speaking western countries.

We also don't get the same amount of vacation time here in the US that our European counterparts do. Four weeks is a pretty standard amount of vacation time for Europeans, no? That's what we *top out* at here in the US if we're *lucky*. Personally, I've been in my professional career now for more than a decade and I've never had more than three weeks. Vacations are looked at as a liability to large companies here in the US.

mjoelnir · Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:04 am

I think a big difference is the difference in length of holidays. The Europeans and perhaps also Canadians have on average more days or weeks of vacation than the average citizen of the USA. If both groups have a similar amount to spend, the European have to stretch the money over a longer period. The European package deals provide a dirt cheap solution. You get squashed in the most uncomfortable charter planes if the price is low and your only consideration is the quality of hotel and similar things once you have arrived. The flight home is something to be endured at the end of the holiday.

STLflyer · Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:04 am

Do the European and Canadian leisure airlines provide anything that their respective country's flag carriers don't? Thomas Cook and TUI fly London-Cancun, but so does BA. Condor flies Frankfurt-Cancun, but so does Lufthansa. Ditto for XL and Air France.

Are the holiday airlines cheaper, or do they provide amazing package deals? All other things being just about equal, I'm trying to figure out why you'd fly one of those. If I were in France, I think I'd prefer to keep all my flying to Air France and accumulate miles on one program. If you fly AF for domestic and international flights to non-holiday destinations, and XL for flights to holiday destinations, you're accumulating miles on two separate programs and making it harder to achieve any sort of status or redeem them. It does you no good to have a few thousand miles spread across several different programs, as opposed to 30,000 miles on one program.

Arion640 · Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:18 am

reffado wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Holiday airlines seem to be a very European/Canadian thing due to the cold climates. Americans like to drive everywhere and may just drive upstate for a holiday etc. Or if you live in New York you may fly to LA etc, it just doesn't seem to be the same culture.

While I can't speak for the statistics, this sounds accurate to me. Last big vacation I took, I chose to drive the 5,000 miles instead of catching multiple flights. Saw much more, spent much less, and hours behind the wheel somehow still isn't as annoying as half the time in lines at airports. And, at times, I'd go miles without seeing a car with plates from the state I was actually in. Roadtripping is still very popular here, although one could argue that's because Europe has much more attractive airfares for continental travel most of the time, at least from what I've seen.

Interesting. My air bnb host in NYC once told me she drove the LA-NYC trip, just her, her cat and her dog. Just left and drove to New York. Drove through everywhere by the sound of it. Not being from the states, I was quite amazed.

BaconButty · Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:35 am

STLflyer wrote:
Do the European and Canadian leisure airlines provide anything that their respective country's flag carriers don't? Thomas Cook and TUI fly London-Cancun, but so does BA. Condor flies Frankfurt-Cancun, but so does Lufthansa. Ditto for XL and Air France.

*Answering from the British perspective*
But does BA fly from, say, Manchester to Cancun? Thomas Cook and Thomson do. Plus a raft of other Airports on a seasonal basis. I really don't think legacies are the competition, and I don't think frequent flyer programs have much of an impact on the gang of lads going to Megamuf for the week. It's Ryanair and Easyjet that are really impacting vertically integrated tour operators.

But as for what they offer. It's tied into that vertical integration - the transfers, the rep at the hotel. Not to mention that you're on a plane with fellow travellers are in equally ... high spirits. Who may well have partaken in a breakfast of champions, and will no doubt cheer on touchdown as if for a last minute derby winner. Oh, the joys.

axiom · Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:44 am

Been said, but...

1. US network carriers are huge. The Marie that's evolved in a different way.
2. There are holiday airlines. Hello, G4. Hello, SY.
3. The US is a continent. You don't have to leave the country to get to a sun spot.
4. US citizens are more culturally insular relative to others in the global north; getting shuttled down to foreign language beach destination isn't required or even desirable for many.

Austin787 · Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:47 am

The USA has a few leisure, holiday airlines. Sun Country, Allegiant, Spirit, and Frontier. And the major airlines serve many "holiday" destinations too.

IPFreely · Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:48 am

alan3 wrote:
Forgive me but I couldn't find a recent similar discussion... Why doesn't the US have the same tradition of holiday leisure airlines, as in these examples from other countries.

Canada......Air Canada Rouge, Sunwing, Air Transat
UK......TUI-Thomson, Thomas Cook, and in the past Monarch, Brittania, etc.
France.....Corsair, XL Airways,.
Germany.....Condor
Switzerland......Edelweiss
Australia.......Jetstar
Netherlands.....TUI Fly
Turkey.....Corendon Airlines
Israel......Arkia, Sun D'Or
etc

I'm not sure other countries have as many independent airlines as you think. Different brands -- yes. Different airlines -- no.

Air Canada Rouge, Edelweiss and JetStar are silly branding exercises; they are owned by Air Canada, Swiss, and QANTAS, respectively. Think "Song by Delta" or "Ted by United".

TUI Thomson, TUI Fly, and Corsair are different brands but one airline.

Thomas Cook and Condor are also different brands but one airline.

I had never heard of Arkia Airlines (8 planes) or Sun D'Or (2 planes) but they are so small they are not significant -- some corporations have larger fleets than these airlines.

The US has Sun Country and Allegiant. While some might argue that these are LCC's and not "leisure" airlines, there is no definition for a "leisure" airline. Both built most of their business flying to leisure destinations like Las Vegas, Florida, and the Caribbean, and both market primarily to vacationers and secondarily to business travellers.

The big difference between the US and Europe is that all the airlines, whether Sun Country or Allegiant or the larger carriers, all operate under one brand name instead of two or more.

axiom · Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:54 am

If G4 ain't a holiday airline, leveraging their airline biz to husk vacation packages to LAS and FL in bulk, I don't know what it is.

stl07 · Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:04 am

Driving culture, hubs in leisure cities - MIA, LAX, SFO, SEA, ANC, FLL, MCO, DFW, BNA etc. - as for international, except CUN,a massive hub and spoke establishment exists
Now that I think about it, a lot of our "leisure" destinations are in cities that have a large population or business offerings themselves, eliminating the need a "leisure" carrier in addition to a regular carrier.

rbavfan · Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:23 am

Americans do not get as much vacation time as EU/UK. They also o not have as many limits on hours companies can work you. A result is when they get time off they have other things to deal with home than in EU/UK.

alan3 · Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:25 am

STLflyer wrote:
Do the European and Canadian leisure airlines provide anything that their respective country's flag carriers don't? Thomas Cook and TUI fly London-Cancun, but so does BA. Condor flies Frankfurt-Cancun, but so does Lufthansa. Ditto for XL and Air France.

Are the holiday airlines cheaper, or do they provide amazing package deals? All other things being just about equal, I'm trying to figure out why you'd fly one of those. If I were in France, I think I'd prefer to keep all my flying to Air France and accumulate miles on one program. If you fly AF for domestic and international flights to non-holiday destinations, and XL for flights to holiday destinations, you're accumulating miles on two separate programs and making it harder to achieve any sort of status or redeem them. It does you no good to have a few thousand miles spread across several different programs, as opposed to 30,000 miles on one program.

I can say in Canada, Winter getaway packages especially to Cuba and Dominican Republic are very popular, they are the lifeblood of airlines like Sunwing. First I think the convenience is one stop shopping: Air + all-inclusive resort with meals (+ airport transfers) in one click. And yes often better price than buying separate.

Also these airlines often fly to the resort from smaller secondary cities too, so there is no conecting through YYZ or YUL.

The market for these are often not heavy mileage travellers, but middle-class families looking for a quick easy 1 week getaway.

NoTime · Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:26 am

Samrnpage wrote:
Being from the UK, do the US3 and main US airlines do package holidays like the european leisure airlines? For example TUI you can book flights, hotel, food and travel all under one price ?

Yes, most major airlines in the US have some form of packaged vacations, but I don't believe they're advertised all that much.

dz09 wrote:
most americans do not take vacations and the lucky ones only have a week a year.

This isn't true. While a sizable portion of American workers don't have any paid vacation, it's not "most" of them. In fact, the average American worker gets 10 paid vacation days per year.

Anyhow, as for the lack of leisure airlines, could it simply be that they aren't needed because our existing, mainline carriers fill that role? I mean, AA, UA, DL and WN are the top four largest airlines by fleet size (?), and AA, UA and DL are 3 of the top 4 in terms of destinations served (not to mention the additional routes from alliance partners).

Factor in all the others (B6, F9, NK, G4, AS, HA) and you simply don't really have a need for any additional carriers...?

rbavfan · Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:26 am

alan3 wrote:
Forgive me but I couldn't find a recent similar discussion... Why doesn't the US have the same tradition of holiday leisure airlines, as in these examples from other countries.

Canada......Air Canada Rouge, Sunwing, Air Transat
UK......TUI-Thomson, Thomas Cook, and in the past Monarch, Brittania, etc.
France.....Corsair, XL Airways,.
Germany.....Condor
Switzerland......Edelweiss
Australia.......Jetstar
Netherlands.....TUI Fly
Turkey.....Corendon Airlines
Israel......Arkia, Sun D'Or
etc

Most holiday flights from the US (to Caribbean in winter, to Europe in summer) seem to be operated by the mainline carriers or low cost airlines but not specifically to seasonal leisure-market holiday airlines. There is Sun Country (SY), but it seems to be an outlier and dominated around one hub. I know in the past, American Trans Air ATA.

I know there are some charter airlines like Apple Vacations and Vacation Express, but not really airlines that can compare to the above list.

Is it because the US has a different history of leisure travel and doesn't have large-scale tour operators like TUI or Sunwing?

I would not consider Air Canada Rouge a holiday lea sure carrier. They are Air Canada's LLC division.

HELyes · Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:30 am

777PHX wrote:
We also don't get the same amount of vacation time here in the US that our European counterparts do. Four weeks is a pretty standard amount of vacation time for Europeans, no? That's what we *top out* at here in the US if we're *lucky*. Personally, I've been in my professional career now for more than a decade and I've never had more than three weeks. Vacations are looked at as a liability to large companies here in the US.

5-6 weeks is quite a standard (maximum) amount of vacation in Finland, I now have 6 weeks + 3 days after 15 years of service. Plus the 10 public holidays this year. So plenty of time for travelling, on the other hand I probably would be better paid in US, you can't get everything I guess ,)

STLflyer wrote:
Do the European and Canadian leisure airlines provide anything that their respective country's flag carriers don't? Thomas Cook and TUI fly London-Cancun, but so does BA. Condor flies Frankfurt-Cancun, but so does Lufthansa. Ditto for XL and Air France.

Are the holiday airlines cheaper, or do they provide amazing package deals?

The families I know prefer the package holidays provided by the leisure airlines, easier with kids when flights-hotel+ground transportation all included. Some older folk especially value the Finnish/Swedish speaking travel guide services. Yes, sometimes they have good last minute deals, just checked offers from Finnair's Suntours, for an example: A week in Goa, India EUR 635/3* hotel and a week in Gran Canary, Spain EUR 375/2* hotel. Finnair is rather unusual European legacy airline, package holidays have always been a big part of their business model. They have dozens of "leisure" destinations in the Mediterranean, Canary Islands, Thailand, Caribbean.

rbavfan · Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:33 am

aviatorcraig wrote:
I don't know the American market very well but surely Allegiant would be called a "vacation airline" no?

Yes Allegiant promotes themselves as a package vacation airline. It's their main market. If this type of service was popular here you would see more Allegiant style airlines. But most people doing cruise vacation markets just tend to fly ULCC like Spirit & Frontier

rbavfan · Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:36 am

NoTime wrote:
Samrnpage wrote:
Being from the UK, do the US3 and main US airlines do package holidays like the european leisure airlines? For example TUI you can book flights, hotel, food and travel all under one price ?

Yes, most major airlines in the US have some form of packaged vacations, but I don't believe they're advertised all that much.

dz09 wrote:
most americans do not take vacations and the lucky ones only have a week a year.

This isn't true. While a sizable portion of American workers don't have any paid vacation, it's not "most" of them. In fact, the average American worker gets 10 paid vacation days per year.

Anyhow, as for the lack of leisure airlines, could it simply be that they aren't needed because our existing, mainline carriers fill that role? I mean, AA, UA, DL and WN are the top four largest airlines by fleet size (?), and AA, UA and DL are 3 of the top 4 in terms of destinations served (not to mention the additional routes from alliance partners).

Factor in all the others (B6, F9, NK, G4, AS, HA) and you simply don't really have a need for any additional carriers...?

Also most that travel with package deals in the US want to pick their own package parts & do it themselves with many options for hotels & services directly linked to the airlines website. I did a package deal and hated it. I want to o where I want when visiting a place, not just tossed off busses to each tourist spot the planners get a cutback from.

notconcerned · Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:05 am

stl07 wrote:
Driving culture, hubs in leisure cities - MIA, LAX, SFO, SEA, ANC, FLL, MCO, DFW, BNA etc. - as for international, except CUN,a massive hub and spoke establishment exists
Now that I think about it, a lot of our "leisure" destinations are in cities that have a large population or business offerings themselves, eliminating the need a "leisure" carrier in addition to a regular carrier.

You got most of the reasons. Another one is geographical, the US pretty much has all climate types (except for rainforest) for leisure travel - beaches all year round (FL, HI, PR/USVI), mountains in the winter, big cities, nature/national parks, and theme parks. Pair that up with destinations that also have a strong business community, MIA, MCO, LAX, LAS, DEN, etc. There's no real need for a dedicated holiday leisure airline.

Mainland carriers can funnel that traffic which is mixed business + leisure travel and offer more frequent (and cheaper) flights. For flights further away, CUN or SJO or Caribbean, they're supported by VFR traffic.

aemoreira1981 · Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:20 am

alan3 wrote:
STLflyer wrote:
Do the European and Canadian leisure airlines provide anything that their respective country's flag carriers don't? Thomas Cook and TUI fly London-Cancun, but so does BA. Condor flies Frankfurt-Cancun, but so does Lufthansa. Ditto for XL and Air France.

Are the holiday airlines cheaper, or do they provide amazing package deals? All other things being just about equal, I'm trying to figure out why you'd fly one of those. If I were in France, I think I'd prefer to keep all my flying to Air France and accumulate miles on one program. If you fly AF for domestic and international flights to non-holiday destinations, and XL for flights to holiday destinations, you're accumulating miles on two separate programs and making it harder to achieve any sort of status or redeem them. It does you no good to have a few thousand miles spread across several different programs, as opposed to 30,000 miles on one program.

I can say in Canada, Winter getaway packages especially to Cuba and Dominican Republic are very popular, they are the lifeblood of airlines like Sunwing. First I think the convenience is one stop shopping: Air + all-inclusive resort with meals (+ airport transfers) in one click. And yes often better price than buying separate.

Also these airlines often fly to the resort from smaller secondary cities too, so there is no conecting through YYZ or YUL.

The market for these are often not heavy mileage travellers, but middle-class families looking for a quick easy 1 week getaway.

Sunwing is basically TUI Canada, importing the business model of TUI into Canada (as well as aircraft transfers in the winter season); Sunwing is also 49 percent owned by TUI.

Now, as for the USA, I would argue that five airlines fit the mode: SY (which seasonally uses HV metal), G4 (which is a subsidiary of the Allegiant Travel Company), NK and F9 (maximum seating and tight pitch not unlike the traditional European LCCs like DY/DI/D8, EZ, FR, VY, and W6; NK has the Big Front seats) and for a surprise, B6 (on routes where it doesn't fly Mint and is all Y+ and Y, although B6's seat pitch is on par with old-style legacies and not traditional LCCs; I consider them a regular regional the way AS is for the West Coast). I would suspect that B6 doesn't want to go above 200 seats on its all-economy A321s (they were originally 190) to avoid paying a fifth flight attendant.

KLMatSJC · Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:23 am

alan3 wrote:
aviatorcraig wrote:
I don't know the American market very well but surely Allegiant would be called a "vacation airline" no?

Allegiant is probably still considered an LCC, or more specifically an ULCC. I guess a main key in this if people are booking "packaged travel". Yes, they do have lots of routes to Florida and get lots of leisure travel that way, but they don't fly outside the US and don't even fly to Hawaii anymore.

That is really the only airline that you can classify as a vacation airline. They basically only fly to vacation destinations (Las Vegas, Florida, etc.). Hawaii is a whole different market where most people who have the money to go there usually wouldn't fly an airline like Allegiant.

alan3 · Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:39 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
alan3 wrote:
STLflyer wrote:

Sunwing is basically TUI Canada, importing the business model of TUI into Canada (as well as aircraft transfers in the winter season); Sunwing is also 49 percent owned by TUI.

Now, as for the USA, I would argue that five airlines fit the mode: SY (which seasonally uses HV metal), G4 (which is a subsidiary of the Allegiant Travel Company), NK and F9 (maximum seating and tight pitch not unlike the traditional European LCCs like DY/DI/D8, EZ, FR, VY, and W6; NK has the Big Front seats) and for a surprise, B6 (on routes where it doesn't fly Mint and is all Y+ and Y, although B6's seat pitch is on par with old-style legacies and not traditional LCCs; I consider them a regular regional the way AS is for the West Coast). I would suspect that B6 doesn't want to go above 200 seats on its all-economy A321s (they were originally 190) to avoid paying a fifth flight attendant.

Most of those are just LCC's. I think the key is that the PRIMARY customer of the airline are leisure travellers booking vacation packages (air + hotel + whatever). I would say F9 and B6 fly just as much "Ryanair" type low cost travel as they do people on sun holidays. For example, Thomas Cook Airlines in the UK is not really a competitor to Ryanair.

SY does intrigue me because it competes against DL in a Delta fortress hub and there isn't an equivalent version of SY in other "cold cities" other than MSP.

Sunwing isn't really a low cost carrier, athough in summer they do add some domestic routes like YVR-YYZ, vacation PACKAGES are their key.

Route66 · Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:02 am

Road trip!

MAH4546 · Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:05 am

jetfuel wrote:
Americans largely do not leave the USA for vacation

No. Americans are usually the largest inbound long distance tourist group for just about any major country or region.

The primary reason is likely that most Americans don't travel on package vacations like the rest of the world. Except for Minnesotans.

Wingtips56 · Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:09 am

The situation in the U.S. pre-dates frequent flyer/loyalty programs that many in here have mentioned. There have always been lots of tour companies booking packages over the last many decades, but most have booked their air on scheduled airlines. It may or may not have had to do with the type of regulation that used to exist in this country prior to 1978 Deregulation, as when and where you could fly, and how much you could charge was all regulated. Many airlines did and continue to have in-house tour departments (including private-label contracts), so there was/is less of a need for the types of the leisure/charter airlines that do exist in quantity in Europe and elsewhere. U.S. companies like SunTrips and Pleasant Hawaiian holidays may have chartered airliners (my folks flew SFO-London years ago with SunTrips on chartered Hawaiian Air planes), but there was not much need to operate their own airlines. Allegiant is the best example of a current travel company that has it's own airline and books their package tours on them, and others have existed (do you buy the whole package with SunCountry or do you just fly on them?), but they are not the norm.

As a mobile and immigrant country, much of the leisure travel by people in the U.S. is visiting friends and family back home .. "Back East", "out West", back to "the old country", or reverse, for which you don't need a tour package, or be stuck with the full week Saturday-to-Saturday schedule of a charter operator. Unlike Switzerland with 5-6 weeks legally mandated vacation (holidays) for even first-year hires, folks in the U.S. generally have much less vacation time ...none if self-employed..., so precious leisure travel is sparingly used to best advantage. Having to visit distant family will often take precedence over true leisure time and travel. You know we just can't seem to pass up the annual Thanksgiving family fight ordeal, instead of selfishly going to relax on the beach.

MAH4546 · Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:33 am

axiom wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:
jetfuel wrote:
Americans largely do not leave the USA for vacation

No. Americans are usually the largest inbound long distance tourist group for just about any major country or region.

The primary reason is likely that most Americans don't travel on package vacations like the rest of the world. Except for Minnesotans.

Adjusting for the size and wealth of the country, I'm not sure that first point holds true. It may be true that there are a higher volume of Americans traveling abroad, but as a share of the national population I expect a different ranking.

Sure, I wouldn't argue that.

880dc8707 · Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:34 am

Part of this is USA hotels are not set up for 7days in - 7days out. They cater to long weekends, week vacations, but sometimes Sat - Sat or Wed =Wed, 10 days if vacations permit. Business stays at the same hotel. As mentioned the US3 can work well around this scenario.

axiom · Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:36 am

MAH4546 wrote:
jetfuel wrote:
Americans largely do not leave the USA for vacation

No. Americans are usually the largest inbound long distance tourist group for just about any major country or region.

The primary reason is likely that most Americans don't travel on package vacations like the rest of the world. Except for Minnesotans.

Adjusting for the size and wealth of the country, I'm not sure that first point holds true. It may be true that there are a higher volume of Americans traveling abroad, but as a share of the national population I expect a different ranking.

BreezyIAH · Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:49 am

"Holidays" in the US aren't what they are abroad....they're vacations and no overseas territories to travel to either

SCQ83 · Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:15 am

In any case it is worth noting that in Europe (and I reckon in Canada) the models are converging.

It is more and more common to find holiday packages in schedules carriers (e.g. Turkish to Asia/Africa/ME is a typical one in Europe) and carriers like Jet2, TUI or Condor are competing more directly with traditional carriers (e.g. Leeds-Kraków on Jet2 is not a sun destination).

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