guyanam
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:52 am

777PHX wrote:
guyanam wrote:
jetfuel wrote:
Americans largely do not leave the USA for vacation


Really! I suspect that people living in Mexico and everywhere in the Caribbean except Cuba and Barbados would be shocked to hear this. The US market is far and way the largest source of tourism to the Caribbean and Mexico.


He's not incorrect. The percentage of Americans that leave the country for whatever reason is far lower than other English speaking western countries.

.



Please note that the USA is a large country and there is ample domestic travel WITHIN this nation. Canada is a thin line pinned against the US border. The UK is a tiny nation. Americans can get all they need from a Caribbean vacation by travelling to FL. A British has to leave the UK for a similar experience. Canadians have to travel to FL, Mexico or the Caribbean. So there is less incentive for Americans to travel overseas as there is so much available within the US itself.

The USA vastly dominates leisure travel to the Caribbean. In 2015 it was 14.3 million visits vs. 3.4 million for Canada and 5 million for Europe.

Americans have shorter visits to the Caribbean, 4-7 days vs. the 10-14 by Europeans, but the volume is certainly there. Note of course there is tremendous VFR travel to the Caribbean from the USA. B6 benefits tremendously from this market.
 
guyanam
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:00 am

Samrnpage wrote:
guyanam wrote:
Samrnpage wrote:
Being from the UK, do the US3 and main US airlines do package holidays like the european leisure airlines? For example TUI you can book flights, hotel, food and travel all under one price ?


Americans don't necessarily want to do all of that in one package, so tour operators are less popular.


Simple question, why not? because its very cheap. 7 night hotel, both flights and travel to the airport in Kavos is £539 each at the moment with TUI. I think the US3 are being clever here.



Which is the point. Americans go more for quality and less for cheap vacations hence less demand for the type of packages that scare legacy carriers and attract the charters.

While Americans have shorter vacations they spend more per day and stay at higher end properties. These have more employees per room, generate more hotel taxes and encourage more travel off the premises. So are more valued by the locals.

The all inclusive model where tourists spend every penny to buy a package, assembled in Europe, leaving little to spend outside of the hotels is not liked by local Caribbean people. They get limited opportunities to benefit from opportunities which tourism presents as there is less use of restaurants and attractions outside of the properties.

Ask most Caribbean people and they will tell you that they much prefer the US visitor than the others. After all tourism is about how many jobs are created and how widely tourist dollars circulate within society. Its a business.
 
Jerry123
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:19 am

With the UK and the EU many of the airlines like TUI and Thomas Cook and Condor and Jet2 are the airlines of big holiday companies whereas in the US it looks like the big holiday companies there didn't setup there own airlines like over here.
 
ghsweusa
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:09 am

Reply comment
"This isn't true. While a sizable portion of American workers don't have any paid vacation, it's not "most" of them. In fact, the average American worker gets 10 paid vacation days per year."

Often those days are also supposed to cover if you are sick, appointments or caring for someone else.
 
amax1977
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:16 am

I believe the main reason is that PTO (paid time off) for an average employee in the US is only 80 hours per year (10 working days).
 
JibberJim
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:04 am

Remember the existence of these airlines isn't due to the holiday market today, it's to do with the holiday market 30-40 years ago, that's when the European package holidays grew (indeed even further back for many) At those times, the US had even less holidays and tended to use what they did have even more for visiting family elsewhere in the country (within US migration extremely high, and distances greater so visiting family a bigger "trip") They also never had the "week in the sun" tradition that had grown up in the UK.

Launching a package airline isn't going to work in the UK now, just like it won't work in the US, but the reason it won't work now is not because of radically different travellers today, it's to do with the market today.
 
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Mortyman
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:46 am

Bit strange that there is no room for a charter airline in the US. Certainly many Americans that are going on cruise wich is also a package type of thing ...
 
flydude380
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:01 am

There are a few budget/charter carriers like Allegiant and Spirit. As well as Norwegian... I think the U.S. is better off without them tbh... Long live legacy carriers!! :)
 
smokeybandit
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:26 am

Some good stats here that shed light into things.

https://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/sites/rita ... ravel.html
 
Bostrom
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:27 am

STLflyer wrote:
Do the European and Canadian leisure airlines provide anything that their respective country's flag carriers don't? Thomas Cook and TUI fly London-Cancun, but so does BA. Condor flies Frankfurt-Cancun, but so does Lufthansa. Ditto for XL and Air France.

Are the holiday airlines cheaper, or do they provide amazing package deals? All other things being just about equal, I'm trying to figure out why you'd fly one of those. If I were in France, I think I'd prefer to keep all my flying to Air France and accumulate miles on one program. If you fly AF for domestic and international flights to non-holiday destinations, and XL for flights to holiday destinations, you're accumulating miles on two separate programs and making it harder to achieve any sort of status or redeem them. It does you no good to have a few thousand miles spread across several different programs, as opposed to 30,000 miles on one program.


The package deals are what people are buying. The holiday airlines usually do not sell tickets to their flights but are owned by holiday companies that uses them for their package deals. So to buy a trip on TUI fly you have to go to the holiday company TUI and buy a trip from them.

So why do people prefer package deals? Probably because they are simple, and easy and can be cheap. Especially if you are willing to travel anywhere where there's a beach and warm weather, and don't care if it's Spain or Greece. Plus, you buy a package deal and you will have everything sorted out, hotel, flight and transfer. There are also local tours available, all in a language you understand. The latter might be a very good thing on a continent with more than 30 languages. My sister prefers package deals when travelling with her family as having scandinavian speaking staff in the hotel and tours with scandinavian speaking guides makes things a lot easier when travelling with children.

And they offer flights from smaller airports as well. Lufthansa might fly to Cancun from Frankfurt. But does it fly there from Munich, or Hamburg, or Leipzig, or Bremen?
Last edited by Bostrom on Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
VV
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:19 pm

What's a holiday?
 
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Polot
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:25 pm

Mortyman wrote:
Bit strange that there is no room for a charter airline in the US. Certainly many Americans that are going on cruise wich is also a package type of thing ...

Again though, what advantages would this new charter airline bring versus using the existing US3 or other US LCCs which already have large networks extensively serving the large and disperse country?

It’s true that Americans have less vacation time, but that doesn’t mean they never take vacation. It is just that most of their vacation is domestic. We tend to view the US3 as business focused but they carry a ton of leisure pax (probably more than actual business travel in Y).

The US is too large for an extensive charter airline to work. It has multiple large cities spread 1000s of miles apart, not a single large hub that is relatively quick train/car ride away to most of the country. The population in the US is just too disperse to focus on charter leisure traffic.
 
hz747300
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:32 pm

Travel packages can be arranged through the few travel agents that remain. When I lived in the US, this was more popular in NY than my other home AZ. I think Allegiant would be close as well.

I live in HK now, and Cathay Pacific has Cathay Pacific Holidays, but I've only booked a package once. My big concern was with the package price I can't earn miles. Also, travel agents in HK are extremely common, seem to have a monopoly on tickets. They have an advantage though, you can book almost any fare and not pay until the day of travel.
Keep on truckin'...
 
TC957
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:35 pm

Cruising is also very much a popular American vacation rather than a regular package holiday.
 
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Blimpie
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:58 pm

Hmmm... when I was much younger, I sue to do the all inclusive tour package deals offered by the airlines (flight+hotel+extra stuff), but I think the OTAs over the past ten years,who have devastated the travel agent's bottom dollars have done a nice job of taking the package deals away from the airlines; and have done so for much less.

Any case, I always thought of allegiant, Spirit, Frontier and to a lesser extent, JetBlue and Southwest were the holiday airlines.
Now get the hell off of my lawn your dang kids!
 
mast2407
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:03 pm

guyanam wrote:
jetfuel wrote:
Americans largely do not leave the USA for vacation


Really! I suspect that people living in Mexico and everywhere in the Caribbean except Cuba and Barbados would be shocked to hear this. The US market is far and way the largest source of tourism to the Caribbean and Mexico.

The reason for the lack of dominance by charters is that US leisure travel isn't dominated by large tour operators. Americans do their own shopping and increasing vehicles like Expedia facilitate this.

There is also a much larger VFR market from the USA to the Caribbean as well as travel from Mexico and the Caribbean to the USA. There are also decent levels of business travel so for all of these reasons travel isn't as seasonal as it is from Canada and northern Europe, where it is heavily winter dominated making scheduled service less interesting. In fact the only slow period in US Caribbean travel is may and mid Sept to mid Nov.

In fact Jamaica generates 12 daily flights from MIA/FLL and 4-5 from ATL and CLT. The DR can generate as many as 25 daily from JFK/EWR..


I think what Guyanam is suggesting is that something like only 46% of Americans have a passport, the rest do not. That’s assuming all of those leave the country for their vacation, which I’m guessing would not be the case. Therefore, Americans largely do not leave the USA for vacation.
Link for analysis: http://www.theexpeditioner.com/2010/02/ ... assport-2/
 
FrancisBegbie
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:30 pm

Bostrom wrote:
STLflyer wrote:
Do the European and Canadian leisure airlines provide anything that their respective country's flag carriers don't? Thomas Cook and TUI fly London-Cancun, but so does BA. Condor flies Frankfurt-Cancun, but so does Lufthansa. Ditto for XL and Air France.

(....)

And they offer flights from smaller airports as well. Lufthansa might fly to Cancun from Frankfurt. But does it fly there from Munich, or Hamburg, or Leipzig, or Bremen?


The smaller airports-argument works on both ends. KLM will fly you from Amsterdam to Athens; end of story. Whereas the tour-operators will happily fly you to Corfu, Crete and another X-amount of Greek Islands. And indeed not only from AMS, but from another 2 to 4 airports in the Netherlands as well. For reference, the Netherlands is about the same size as Maryland.
 
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OzarkD9S
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:47 pm

guyanam wrote:

Americans don't necessarily want to do all of that in one package, so tour operators are less popular.


While I certainly don't speak for all Americans, I prefer shorter vacations. Out on day 1, days 2 and 3 at the destination, back on Day 4. While I do get 4 vacation weeks a year, I space them out throughout the year and do plan on spending a few days of each around the house doing this and that that needs to be done. A week-long travel package doesn't appeal to me at all.
"True, I talk of dreams,
Which are the children of an idle brain." -Mercutio
 
cledaybuck
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:01 pm

Doesn't Apple Vacations do essentially what is being discussed in the US, except they don't own the planes? They just buy/charter the capacity on another carrier?
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
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BaconButty
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:04 pm

MAH4546 wrote:
No. Americans are usually the largest inbound long distance tourist group for just about any major country or region.


Bollocks! Just did a bit of looking around. For Thailand you're in eighth. In Kenya, well beaten by the Germans, and only just ahead of the British. In India, second, only just ahead of the British. In France 7th. In Dubai you're 6th. I've just googled them as representative of certain types of holiday.

Of course, I expect the Americas to be a different story, just as I expect Spain to be dominated by British visitors (it is, 17m of them). But your statement is far from the truth - and wait till the Chinese get going.

Canada is a thin line pinned against the US border. The UK is a tiny nation.

But who needs statistics, when you've get gems like this!
Down with that sort of thing!
 
9w748capt
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:07 pm

dz09 wrote:
most americans do not take vacations and the lucky ones only have a week a year. a major vacation would be a trip to Disneyworld. there is simply no demand for leisure airlines and the little there is is covered by regular airlines. a road trip is basically your standard American vacation.


Great point that's probably overlooked here and everywhere else. Most of the US is poor, what is it - half the country makes $30k/year or less? Even salaried professionals like teachers don't make much. Not much disposable income left for plane tickets to Mexico or Hawaii for the vast majority.
 
9w748capt
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:10 pm

OzarkD9S wrote:
guyanam wrote:

Americans don't necessarily want to do all of that in one package, so tour operators are less popular.


While I certainly don't speak for all Americans, I prefer shorter vacations. Out on day 1, days 2 and 3 at the destination, back on Day 4. While I do get 4 vacation weeks a year, I space them out throughout the year and do plan on spending a few days of each around the house doing this and that that needs to be done. A week-long travel package doesn't appeal to me at all.


Wow suit yourself. Looks like you stay within 200 miles of home for vacation. Fun.
 
IPFreely
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:30 pm

9w748capt wrote:
Great point that's probably overlooked here and everywhere else. Most of the US is poor, what is it - half the country makes $30k/year or less? Even salaried professionals like teachers don't make much. Not much disposable income left for plane tickets to Mexico or Hawaii for the vast majority.


This is blatantly false. In 2017 the US median household income was $59,039. That means half of the households in the US make over $59k, not $30k. So your point is not great, it's false. Please stop making stuff up.

http://www.businessinsider.com/us-censu ... ome-2017-9

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/12/busi ... ssion.html
 
jayunited
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:39 pm

777PHX wrote:
We also don't get the same amount of vacation time here in the US that our European counterparts do. Four weeks is a pretty standard amount of vacation time for Europeans, no? That's what we *top out* at here in the US if we're *lucky*. Personally, I've been in my professional career now for more than a decade and I've never had more than three weeks. Vacations are looked at as a liability to large companies here in the US.


I complete disagree with this statement because it dumps most Americans into the same box. When the reality is Americans vacation time varies depending on the industry you are in. I know many people outside the airline industry who get 4 weeks paid vacation. In the airline industry or at least here at UA ground staff can top out at 7 weeks paid vacation but you can make it 8 weeks if you float your paid holidays there is also a way to get up to 9 weeks but I'm not going to share that on this site. What I've noticed is most people outside of the airline industry do not take all of their vacation. Its not that they don't have it they choose not to use it. I'm up to 5 weeks paid vacation and with floating my holidays I get 6 weeks and I have to make my partner take all 4 weeks of his vacation. He would be fine with just taking one week and getting paid out for the remainder of the vacation time at the end of the year and in fact when we first met he would work while on vacation. We would be at the beach and he would be on a conference call. Its not just him I've seen many Americans who are still plug in when they are on vacation, they are on their email, on conference calls, still working just as they would if they were at the office. The problem with this is vacation or that time away begins to loose its value you begin to see it as an expense. You go on vacation you come back and it feels like you've never taken a vacation because you worked but you've spent all of this money and for what. Vacation is loosing its value here in America but make no mistake about it there are plenty Americans who get more than 1, 2, or 3 weeks vacation.

As far as why we don't have more holiday leisure airlines here in the US I think it is because the airlines we currently have have it covered, and if you are looking for an all inclusive vacation package we have Apple Vacations and other companies like Apple Vacations but I think Apple is the most popular all inclusive vacation company her in America
 
Bongodog1964
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:39 pm

There are many reasons:
Due to the US being geographically so,large, many people fly regularly on business accumulating lots of frequent flier miles, especially as US airlines have traditionally been very generous awarding them. These same people then of course use the scheduled airlines for their vacation flying in order to cash them in.
The US has a high percentage of people who feel no desire to leave the US
Generally a lot less holiday entitlement, resulting in not only fewer trips away, but also trips of shorter duration that don't fit the holiday charter pattern of 7/10/14 day breaks.
A highly developed hub and spoke network that enables you to get from more or less any place with a population of I would guess more than 50,000 to any other similar place in the US with a maximum of 4 sectors. Meanwhile here in the UK our domestic flight network is very poor, if we did not have holiday charter flights people living in many provincial cities would face a long drive to London, Manchester or Glasgow in order to access a wide range of destinations.
A very car dependent society and highly developed chain hotel network making packages less desirable.

The European package holiday normally commences at check in. At the destination airport you are directed to a bus that takes you to your hotel which is never a Holiday Inn. Howard Johnson/Best Western etc/ The holiday rep will visit every day and try to sell you excursions (all by bus of course) and at the end the bus will take you back to the airport in time to board your fligth home. As mentioned earlier this includes two aspects less desirable to a US citizen, bus travel and a non chain hotel.

Another factor is that European Countries are generally rather small making foreign travel more likely, the result is that you have to cope with different languages, documentation etc, if you are uncertain about this its easy to book a package and be greeted by a rep speaking your own language and able to cope with the language of the host nation.
Last edited by Bongodog1964 on Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
UpNAWAy
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:43 pm

Package deals in the US are only workable for a single traveler usually as everything is priced per person. Throw in a couple or family with kids and they are quickly more expensive than separate bookings in most cases. Every time I have tried to price one they never were a deal.
Last edited by UpNAWAy on Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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OzarkD9S
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:06 pm

^ 9w748cpt

I do suit myself and haven't been within 200 miles of STL on vacation in years. SJU, GCM, RNO, CHS, BTV, PWM, SAN, EYW, MSY, LAS and RIC just to name a few. I've done Europe and Hawaii multiple times in the past on longer jaunts but prefer the shorter trips these days.

Snark much? :roll:
"True, I talk of dreams,
Which are the children of an idle brain." -Mercutio
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:08 pm

I had four weeks vacation at both my prior employers-in the US. Whenever we traveled, it’s just as easy to make your own plans—airline, car, hotels and it’s what you want. My wife and I never went for the “if it’s Tuesday, this must be Belgium” travel.

GF
 
Jshank83
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:18 pm

alan3 wrote:


Most of those are just LCC's. I think the key is that the PRIMARY customer of the airline are leisure travellers booking vacation packages (air + hotel + whatever). I would say F9 and B6 fly just as much "Ryanair" type low cost travel as they do people on sun holidays. For example, Thomas Cook Airlines in the UK is not really a competitor to Ryanair.

SY does intrigue me because it competes against DL in a Delta fortress hub and there isn't an equivalent version of SY in other "cold cities" other than MSP.

Sunwing isn't really a low cost carrier, athough in summer they do add some domestic routes like YVR-YYZ, vacation PACKAGES are their key.


As others mentioned I think G4 would be the closest thing to a vacation airline. They try to sell you hotels and cars at the time of booking and I think that is where they make a decent amount of money. They have branched out to some non vacations, but are still mostly vacation. My local airport has 9 destinations on G4 and they all are to vacation spots. That is why they fly to Florida from almost everywhere east of the Rockies.

The other thing in the US is vacation charters. So Xtra Airways, Swift Air, etc. They only do charters they don't have scheduled service. You have to book through a travel agency like Apple Vacations to fly them and they only fly to warm weather destinations. Usually you buy it as a package with transportation and hotel. Those two I would say are vacation airlines. It just depends how you want to define it.

I do think the US is different in the way people here don't takes weeks off at a time it seems like. I'll try to schedule my time off more Friday-Tuesday and things like that unless I am going to Europe.
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:36 pm

TC957 wrote:
Cruising is also very much a popular American vacation rather than a regular package holiday.


And most cruises are sold as a package with airfare. The changes in the how the airfare is bundled in the US would make the formation of a vacation airline even more difficult today. Back when my parents started going on cruises in the early 80's, the travel agents tended to collect all the members of the tour in one or two airports in the US and put them in large blocks of seats on legacy conventional airlines.

In '84 my parents invited my brother and myself to go on a northern European cruise with them. They had two groups flying from the US. Ours departed from JFK, the other from SEA. Travel to and from those airports was on various scheduled mainline airlines. Even as late as as 2002 my parents went on a river cruise of Russia where the bundled airfare was from JFK.

A trip they took to Italy the next year was much different. The passengers on the cruise were spread out on various airlines depending on where they originated. My parents flew to IAH on Continental where they then connected with my Dad's alumni group onto a flight on LH to FRA and later to connected on another flight to Italy. In 2006, they had similar flight arrangements to a cruise of the Danube.

In 2012, a couple of years after my father died, my Mom invited my brother and myself to go with her on a cruise of the Mediterranean through the same alumni group. They offered bundled airfare from quite a long list of cities. We opted to travel from AUS, because my brother lives in Austin not far from Austin Bergstrom. We flew AUS-EWR-BCN on United. After spending a night at a hotel in Barcelona, we boarded our cruise ship. We discovered on the cruise that members of the same group on the cruise had down vastly different itineraries to get to Barcelona. One had flown DFW-MIA-BCN. When we got to the end of the cruise in Istanbul, passengers got on all sorts flights. My Mom and brother flew back to AUS via EWR. By prearrangement, I had decided to meet do some traveling in Eastern Europe on my own eventually meeting up with my old college roommate who was living in Switzerland. The cruise travel agent made arrangements for me to fly GVA-IAD-AUS on United at the end of my trip.

The tour travel agents have the ability to put together much more customized travel itineraries using sophisticated software and databases, and the airlines are much more savvy about selling seats on their flights. As transoceanic air travel became more fragmented, the vacation oriented travel agencies followed the trend. In some cases the airline itenaries aren't even determined till just a few days before departure. The tour travel agencies sell large numbers of seats on airlines, but they are low margin. The airlines can route passengers onto fights that haven't filled up and offer good prices close to date of departure. In addition to the the fragmentation of the airline long haul market, the fact that the US population is spread out over millions of square miles means it is difficult or not optimal to try to gather all the people on a tour to one airport to use a charter or vacation airline to a destination.
 
777PHX
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:12 pm

MAH4546 wrote:
jetfuel wrote:
Americans largely do not leave the USA for vacation


No. Americans are usually the largest inbound long distance tourist group for just about any major country or region.

The primary reason is likely that most Americans don't travel on package vacations like the rest of the world. Except for Minnesotans.


Only because we're one of the most populated countries in the world.

In any given year, only 25% of Americans leave the country, and half of those don't leave North America.

jayunited wrote:
I complete disagree with this statement because it dumps most Americans into the same box. When the reality is Americans vacation time varies depending on the industry you are in. I know many people outside the airline industry who get 4 weeks paid vacation. In the airline industry or at least here at UA ground staff can top out at 7 weeks paid vacation but you can make it 8 weeks if you float your paid holidays there is also a way to get up to 9 weeks but I'm not going to share that on this site. What I've noticed is most people outside of the airline industry do not take all of their vacation. Its not that they don't have it they choose not to use it. I'm up to 5 weeks paid vacation and with floating my holidays I get 6 weeks and I have to make my partner take all 4 weeks of his vacation. He would be fine with just taking one week and getting paid out for the remainder of the vacation time at the end of the year and in fact when we first met he would work while on vacation. We would be at the beach and he would be on a conference call. Its not just him I've seen many Americans who are still plug in when they are on vacation, they are on their email, on conference calls, still working just as they would if they were at the office. The problem with this is vacation or that time away begins to loose its value you begin to see it as an expense. You go on vacation you come back and it feels like you've never taken a vacation because you worked but you've spent all of this money and for what. Vacation is loosing its value here in America but make no mistake about it there are plenty Americans who get more than 1, 2, or 3 weeks vacation


Well, obviously. The fact of the matter is what I said wasn't incorrect, Europeans on average get far more vacation time than we do in the US. The average amount of vacation time given in the US is sixteen days, so just over three weeks, which is about what I expected. Some of the more generous European countries double that figure and many of them legally require companies to give a set number of days of vacation, which we don't here in the US. Portugal, for example, requires companies to give a minimum of 22 days right off the bat.

I've worked for several billion dollar companies across a pretty wide range of industries. None of them ever offered more than four weeks and that was after a long period of employment. *All* of them started off at two weeks. I don't know how old you are, but the days of getting seven weeks of vacation per year are largely over with.
 
ddp
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:26 pm

I would think the US holiday travelers are just spread out too much.

I'm Canadian, to go somewhere warm we have to leave the country.

Americans can go to Florida, Arizona, California, Hawaii, Porto Rico, etc. Yes Mexico and Caribbean are options for Americans too, but so is there own country. But same time every time I am in the bahamas and all in all inclusive most American's I meet say it isn't an option from there home city and want the option.
 
caverunner17
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:53 pm

jetfuel wrote:
Americans largely do not leave the USA for vacation

Blame our employers. Most only give 10 vacation days and it can be hard to schedule a full week (or more) off. Outside of Canada, Mexico and island destinations, you're looking at a 7-15 hour flight to Europe or Asia. Given you spend 2 days of your vacation traveling then, it's often not worth traveling that far for a 4-5 day trip. Hell, I've done a 9 day trip (Saturday to the following Sunday) and felt like it was rushed. 2-3 days to adapt to Jet Lag, 2 days for travel... leaves you with 4-5 days of actually feeling good to do stuff.
 
Route66
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:59 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:
And most cruises are sold as a package with airfare.


I've never personally seen a US-based cruise offered, or advertised with airfare, and I do sometimes cruise.

Man, there is a LOT of generalization going on ion this thread with little actual data to support it.
 
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usdcaguy
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:10 pm

IPFreely wrote:
9w748capt wrote:
Great point that's probably overlooked here and everywhere else. Most of the US is poor, what is it - half the country makes $30k/year or less? Even salaried professionals like teachers don't make much. Not much disposable income left for plane tickets to Mexico or Hawaii for the vast majority.


This is blatantly false. In 2017 the US median household income was $59,039. That means half of the households in the US make over $59k, not $30k. So your point is not great, it's false. Please stop making stuff up.

http://www.businessinsider.com/us-censu ... ome-2017-9

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/12/busi ... ssion.html


Household income and personal income are two different things. When he said half the country makes less than $30k a year, meaning personal income, he was correct. According to the Fed, it’s $31k a year. Far from stellar or really enough to live on, particularly in major cities. That means a LOT of people are of modest means, implying they can’t afford regular vacations. Americans also have less disposable income due to higher healthcare, educational and retirement expenses.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N
 
gunnerman
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:13 pm

Only 46% of Americans have a passport, but the other 54% are not disadvantaged as they can fly from continental USA to places as distant as Hawaii and USVI. By comparison, the UK is a small country whose inhabitants are accustomed to travelling abroad, with the boom in package holidays starting in 1950. There has been several holiday airlines running charters with practices which some find strange, e.g. at the end of the peak summer season, a number of employees such as cabin crew would abruptly leave as required by the termination date of their contracts.
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:26 pm

Route66 wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
And most cruises are sold as a package with airfare.


I've never personally seen a US-based cruise offered, or advertised with airfare, and I do sometimes cruise.

Man, there is a LOT of generalization going on ion this thread with little actual data to support it.


My wife and I went on a cruise of Hawaii three years ago on our honeymoon, because my wife couldn't leave the country till her immigration status was updated. I bought the cruise through Orbitz, and I had the option to either have them arrange the airfare or take a discount and arrange the airfare myself. I was able to put together a more complicated air itinerary with stops coming and going on the west coast to visit some of my wife's friends both in Los Angeles and San Francisco for less than the amount allotted for airfare by Orbitz on a cruise package. If I had opted to have Orbitz take care of the airfare to and fro Hawaii, the actual routings would have been determined just a few days in advance if the trip.

Also Vacations To Go and other vacation oriented travel agencies offer cruise packages that include airfare.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:33 pm

STLflyer wrote:
Are the holiday airlines cheaper, or do they provide amazing package deals? All other things being just about equal, I'm trying to figure out why you'd fly one of those. If I were in France, I think I'd prefer to keep all my flying to Air France and accumulate miles on one program. If you fly AF for domestic and international flights to non-holiday destinations, and XL for flights to holiday destinations, you're accumulating miles on two separate programs and making it harder to achieve any sort of status or redeem them. It does you no good to have a few thousand miles spread across several different programs, as opposed to 30,000 miles on one program.


The thing is that if you book a holiday through a travel agency (and that's still pretty common in Europe) you don't get to choose what airline you fly on. The travel agency has a contract with a certain airline that they book all of their passengers on that airline. A host from the travel agency is present at the airport to welcome the passengers and take them to their hotels upon arrival of the plane, but of course only for that flight that the agency has booked their guests on.

Also the fact is that for those holiday flights you usually don't get any miles. That's all got to do with the contract the travel agency has with the airline. Holiday airlines mostly don't have any frequent flyer programs.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:36 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:
My wife and I went on a cruise of Hawaii three years ago on our honeymoon, because my wife couldn't leave the country till her immigration status was updated. I bought the cruise through Orbitz, and I had the option to either have them arrange the airfare or take a discount and arrange the airfare myself.


That's a choice European travel agencies don't give you. If you book a holiday, it includes a flight and they arrange that flight for you. There's no other way.
 
cheapgreek
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:42 pm

dz09 wrote:
most americans do not take vacations and the lucky ones only have a week a year. a major vacation would be a trip to Disneyworld. there is simply no demand for leisure airlines and the little there is is covered by regular airlines. a road trip is basically your standard American vacation.


Europeans have four weeks vacation per year, most Americans don't have that much time off.
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:44 pm

gunnerman wrote:
Only 46% of Americans have a passport, but the other 54% are not disadvantaged as they can fly from continental USA to places as distant as Hawaii and USVI. By comparison, the UK is a small country whose inhabitants are accustomed to travelling abroad, with the boom in package holidays starting in 1950. There has been several holiday airlines running charters with practices which some find strange, e.g. at the end of the peak summer season, a number of employees such as cabin crew would abruptly leave as required by the termination date of their contracts.


But that's a misleading statistic. Prior to the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, a passport was not needed by US citizens to travel anywhere in the western hemisphere. It used to be possible to get airline tickets and fly into other countries in the western hemisphere with just a birth certificate.

Just a month before the 9/11 attacks I crossed the Mexican border at Reynosa without showing any identification. About 3 years before that I was with a group of friends who went across the border for New Year's Eve. We returned to the border crossing in Del Rio, Texas in a taxi, and were asked by the border patrol if we we all US citizens. One friend said yes, and we were allowed back in the US without showing any form of identification. As a child I had travelled to both Canada and Mexico without ever having a passport. My parents, brother, and I all got our first passports when I was 14 in order to take a vacation to London.

Likewise people from other countries in the western hemisphere could enter the US with just a birth certificate.
 
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ODwyerPW
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:10 pm

Working Class or the Working Poor don't have as many vacation days as their counterparts in Europe might have.

Sure a white collar worker might have 3 to 4 weeks of paid vacation, plus generous sick leave, after 10 years on the job.... but that's not true of the working poor.

I think Western Europeans in general have more generous vacation plans... thus spawning a bigger leisure travel industry.

Not saying this is the answer, but no doubt it is a factor.
learning never stops.
 
SmithAir747
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:12 pm

VV wrote:
What's a holiday?


In the context of this thread, a "holiday" is British English for what we in the US call a "vacation".

SmithAir747
I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made... (Psalm 139:14)
 
gunnerman
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:23 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:
gunnerman wrote:
Only 46% of Americans have a passport, but the other 54% are not disadvantaged as they can fly from continental USA to places as distant as Hawaii and USVI. By comparison, the UK is a small country whose inhabitants are accustomed to travelling abroad, with the boom in package holidays starting in 1950. There has been several holiday airlines running charters with practices which some find strange, e.g. at the end of the peak summer season, a number of employees such as cabin crew would abruptly leave as required by the termination date of their contracts.


But that's a misleading statistic. Prior to the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, a passport was not needed by US citizens to travel anywhere in the western hemisphere. It used to be possible to get airline tickets and fly into other countries in the western hemisphere with just a birth certificate.

Just a month before the 9/11 attacks I crossed the Mexican border at Reynosa without showing any identification. About 3 years before that I was with a group of friends who went across the border for New Year's Eve. We returned to the border crossing in Del Rio, Texas in a taxi, and were asked by the border patrol if we we all US citizens. One friend said yes, and we were allowed back in the US without showing any form of identification. As a child I had travelled to both Canada and Mexico without ever having a passport. My parents, brother, and I all got our first passports when I was 14 in order to take a vacation to London.

Likewise people from other countries in the western hemisphere could enter the US with just a birth certificate.

You are using the term "western hemisphere" in a restrictive way, i.e. applying to Canada and Mexico. However, there is a large number of countries which are partially or entirely in the Western Hemisphere but not in the Americas which would certainly have required a passport for an American visitor.
 
Bricktop
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:32 pm

Mortyman wrote:
Certainly many Americans that are going on cruise wich is also a package type of thing ...

Excellent point. I think in the past packages were mostly sold by travel agents. You go there, start at a wall of brochures, pick
what you like and take them home and decide.

We have never done that. To me, a big part of the fun of travel is the planning. Lucky for me I grew up in the age of the internet and our vacations
are very a la carte rather than prix fixe.

Other good points made above are the size of the US (and how far it is to say Europe), the amount of time we get for vacations, and our work culture.
We just don't get the time off Europeans do, and if I told my boss I was going to Europe for two weeks, he'd think I am a) a slacker and b) overpaid! :D
 
bhill
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:35 pm

Because we are Cogs.....and the rest of you are slackers.....really though, with the way workers wages have been pretty much frozen, not much spare cash to see the world. I am envious of my European brothers and sisters...I was watching the Olympic trials last night and priced Seattle to Bern....!!!!!! OUCH!
Carpe Pices
 
Bricktop
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:52 pm

So for fun I just looked at round trip airfares to Paris from Newark in mid June. EWR to CDG r/t on UA is $710, but CDG to EWR r/t on the same dates is $529! :o
What up wid dat??
 
SCQ83
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:55 pm

BaconButty wrote:
Of course, I expect the Americas to be a different story, just as I expect Spain to be dominated by British visitors (it is, 17m of them). But your statement is far from the truth - and wait till the Chinese get going.


Interestingly Americans are the number 1 in visitors in Madrid. I wonder if this would apply to other major cities in Europe as well, as Americans usually focus on capitals since they are visiting probably more than one country in each trip.

https://elpais.com/ccaa/2017/02/15/madr ... 19083.html
 
alan3
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:24 pm

I don't really buy the idea that the reason is because Americans get less vacation time. Rather, it seems that it's just not in the US culture to travel this way.

Canadians get on average about as much time off as Americans and families don't tend to take more than 1 week off anyway when their kids are in school. Yet 1 week all inclusive getaways to Cuba, Dominican Republic or Mexico are very popular.

They fly direct from smaller, secondary cities straight to the resort. For example, Sunwing flies from Saint John, New Brunswick direct to Cayo Coco, Cuba. Or in the UK, Thomas Cook flies from Newcastle to Hurghada, Egypt. If you are a middle class or even lower middle class family, maybe not really world travelers, but seeking any easy quick beach getaway in the dead of winter with everything included, it doesn't get much easier than that to book.
Last edited by alan3 on Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:40 pm, edited 4 times in total.
 
avi8tir
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:26 pm

I am american but have worked internationally for the last 4 years and have now lived in The Netherlands for the last 18 months.

This topic comes up often as I give my colleagues a hard time for constantly taking holidays - sometimes up to 3 weeks at a time (especially in August!). Was just in London this week and this topic came up again about Americans and their vacations.

First, I'd say the main reason is the airline network in the US is extensive and you can pretty much get anywhere with relative ease -- especially if you live near a major city - as most americans do. We don't need a tour company to put a special flight to a destination because we already likely have a multitude of options. As well, the US is massive and we have so much variety on where to go. Most Euro countries are small and getting somewhere vastly different requires more difficult travel compared to the US. I travel every week here in Europe and dearly miss the ease of getting around the US. 90% of my work travel flights in the US were nonstop -- compared to here in Europe where I now have to drive for 5+ hours or connect 90% -- unless from AMS to another major city (in general).

The amount of time off has been mentioned a bunch already -- but I think its equally as much due to work culture. Taking 3 weeks off in August in many European countries is almost considered normal. In comparison -- I took 2 weeks off for my honeymoon when I still lived in the US and still worked half the time. As well, that is likely the only time in my career that I will take 2 full weeks off. I find that when personnel is on holiday in Europe -- they are ON HOLIDAY. They don't seem to work much. This doesn't fly for most US corporate roles. I personally am never without my laptop and don't go more that 4 - 6 hours without checking in -- even when I am on holiday.

The closest thing we have to European tour airlines in the US is Carnival Cruise Lines - which I wouldn't go on if it was free and I walked away with money in my pocket.

Funny, but I was recently in Phu Quoc Vietnam, which is very difficult to get to. I was flying back to Singapore and saw a TUI 787 --- checked and it was departing back to MAN, I believe.
*Long live the Widget*

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