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Polot
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:25 pm

BREECH wrote:
TWA302 wrote:
I have no idea where everyone gets this from. First off, vacation amount is not determined by upper, middle, lower class. Secondly, vacation time (from the vast majority of employers) grows significantly with tenure. For instance. I have been with the same company since 2003. Each year I get six weeks of vacation and 2 weeks of personal time. My vacation hours can compile up to 250%. Next year I will gain 2 more weeks of vacation.

I don't know where you work, but you are an exception by a HUGE margin. Most americans get one day of vacation for every year they work for the company and it never exceeds two weeks. And I think you know that.

I think it is pretty clear you are not an American if you think that most of us only get one day of vacation for every year we work for a company, and that it never exceeds 2 weeks. Either that or you work for a very, very, very, crappy company.
Last edited by Polot on Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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TWA302
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:30 pm

BREECH wrote:
TWA302 wrote:
I have no idea where everyone gets this from. First off, vacation amount is not determined by upper, middle, lower class. Secondly, vacation time (from the vast majority of employers) grows significantly with tenure. For instance. I have been with the same company since 2003. Each year I get six weeks of vacation and 2 weeks of personal time. My vacation hours can compile up to 250%. Next year I will gain 2 more weeks of vacation.

I don't know where you work, but you are an exception by a HUGE margin. Most americans get one day of vacation for every year they work for the company and it never exceeds two weeks. And I think you know that.


One day for each year? No, I don't know that, and don't know one person that NEVER exceeds two weeks.
 
BREECH
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:31 pm

Polot wrote:
I think it is pretty clear you are not an American if you think that most of us only get one day of vacation for every year we work for a company, and that it never exceeds 2 weeks. Either that or you work for a very, very, very, crappy company

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics:
1996 - https://www.bls.gov/news.release/ebs.t05.htm
2013 - https://www.bls.gov/opub/btn/volume-2/p ... -years.htm

I guess they work for a very, very, very, crappy company, too.
No friendship, love or respect unite people as much as shared hatred.
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TWA302
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:31 pm

Polot wrote:
BREECH wrote:
TWA302 wrote:
I have no idea where everyone gets this from. First off, vacation amount is not determined by upper, middle, lower class. Secondly, vacation time (from the vast majority of employers) grows significantly with tenure. For instance. I have been with the same company since 2003. Each year I get six weeks of vacation and 2 weeks of personal time. My vacation hours can compile up to 250%. Next year I will gain 2 more weeks of vacation.

I don't know where you work, but you are an exception by a HUGE margin. Most americans get one day of vacation for every year they work for the company and it never exceeds two weeks. And I think you know that.

I think it is pretty clear you are not an American if you think that most of us only get one day of vacation for every year we work for a company, and that it never exceeds 2 weeks. Either that or you work for a very, very, very, crappy company.


HA! I know right? Must think that we all work in salt mines for room and board!
 
BREECH
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:33 pm

TWA302 wrote:
HA! I know right? Must think that we all work in salt mines for room and board!

I definitely touched a nerve.
No friendship, love or respect unite people as much as shared hatred.
Sergey Dovlatov
 
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Polot
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:38 pm

BREECH wrote:
Polot wrote:
I don't know where you work, but you are an exception by a HUGE margin. Most americans get one day of vacation for every year they work for the company and it never exceeds two weeks. And I think you know that.

I think it is pretty clear you are not an American if you think that most of us only get one day of vacation for every year we work for a company, and that it never exceeds 2 weeks. Either that or you work for a very, very, very, crappy company
According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics:
1996 - https://www.bls.gov/news.release/ebs.t05.htm
2013 - https://www.bls.gov/opub/btn/volume-2/p ... -years.htm

I guess they work for a very, very, very, crappy company, too.

Uhh... did you read those links? Look at your 2nd link (most relevant data), specifically Table 3 (Average number of days provided and tenure by paid leave provision for full-time private industry workers, 1992–1993 and 2012). Under Vacation in 2012 with 1 year of service the average number of vacation days granted was 10. I don't know about you but 10 days is significantly different than 1, and is equal to TWO full work weeks (which, I will remind you, are typically 5 days, not all 7). 91% of all full time employees in 2012 had access to vacation time (Table 1)

5 years at a company gets you an average of 14 vacation days (~3 work weeks), which according to you NEVER happens...
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:42 pm

BREECH wrote:
Polot wrote:
I think it is pretty clear you are not an American if you think that most of us only get one day of vacation for every year we work for a company, and that it never exceeds 2 weeks. Either that or you work for a very, very, very, crappy company

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics:
1996 - https://www.bls.gov/news.release/ebs.t05.htm
2013 - https://www.bls.gov/opub/btn/volume-2/p ... -years.htm

I guess they work for a very, very, very, crappy company, too.


Umm...except the statistics points out what's the common trend (at least for white-collar jobs) I found - Start with 10 days of vacation and go from there. And many people get WAY more than that once they are in a company long enough.

And there are companies that actually shut down totally over the winter break (Christmas/New Year) also (B/c they know nobody works anyway, so might as well just shut everything down), which is a few extra days of leave for people.

In another word, the myth of American not getting vacation is just that, a myth. And quite frankly, there's absolutely no difference in terms of cost/distance between somebody that, let say, live in Midwestern US and travel to FL for their sun compare to a Brit going to Spain for their sun. The main difference? You don't have to leave the US.
 
Kilopond
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:45 pm

I think the thread title is wrong, because actually it is Europe which has developed a Galapagos syndrome. Those holiday charter airlines had been founded as a result of strict regulations: back then it had been ILLEGAL to offer air transportation at prices lower than the official (read: insane!) intergouvernmental/IATA tariffs. But as a workaround those holiday charter airlines had been allowed to transport passengers from their origin country to the tourist destination country and back at very limited conditions. Absolutely nothing more: no tickets could have been sold, no fares could have been published. No passengers could have been carried from the airlines' destinations back to their home bases.

That is why a quite unique system emerged in Europe. And once this system had been established decades ago, deregulation hasn't completely killed it.
 
BREECH
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:46 pm

Polot wrote:
Uhh... did you read those links?

I sure did. You just jumped at the first number that exceeded what I said. That's the total number of days of ALL kinds of leave - vacation, sick leave, personal, etc. But you can believe what you want.
No friendship, love or respect unite people as much as shared hatred.
Sergey Dovlatov
 
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TWA302
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:51 pm

BREECH wrote:
TWA302 wrote:
HA! I know right? Must think that we all work in salt mines for room and board!

I definitely touched a nerve.


Yes, because your "Facts" are pretty much false. Even the BLS data you shared doesn't support your statements. It is obvious you don't live in the US, and that your information is wrong. I'll leave it at that and re-join aviation related chat. Have a great weekend. Oh, and we are leaving on an international vacation next week. :-)
 
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Polot
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:59 pm

BREECH wrote:
Polot wrote:
Uhh... did you read those links?

I sure did. You just jumped at the first number that exceeded what I said. That's the total number of days of ALL kinds of leave - vacation, sick leave, personal, etc. But you can believe what you want.

Oh I see, you don't understand Table 3. That is not the total number of days of ALL kinds of leave. It breaks it down into three categories: vacation (which is the same as personal time off), sick, and holidays (aka days that everyone in the company automatically has off because the company is closed, which is why they are the same no matter length of service). Then it gives the total number of days for each category listed, not all of them added together.

So your average 1 year old employee has 10 available vacation days, 10 available sick days, and 8 holidays throughout the year in which they are off.
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:02 pm

Maybe one reason for this is that the USA has a lot of smaller cities such as Kansas City, Des Moines, Omaha etc that each have their own catchment areas containing millions of people, but are not really large enough to justify a direct flight of more than 4 or 5 hours to Mexico or the Carribean. Therefore people travel through hubs, such as Denver, Chicago, Charlotte etc to get where they need to go. This, of course, favours the network carriers.

In the UK any airline can start London-Cyprus and have huge demand, whereas if you start New York-Santo Domingo you're going to be in competition with network carriers that offer connections to Santo Domingo from literally hundreds of cities and this gives them a big advantage.
 
Brickell305
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:30 pm

BREECH wrote:
TWA302 wrote:
I have no idea where everyone gets this from. First off, vacation amount is not determined by upper, middle, lower class. Secondly, vacation time (from the vast majority of employers) grows significantly with tenure. For instance. I have been with the same company since 2003. Each year I get six weeks of vacation and 2 weeks of personal time. My vacation hours can compile up to 250%. Next year I will gain 2 more weeks of vacation.

I don't know where you work, but you are an exception by a HUGE margin. Most americans get one day of vacation for every year they work for the company and it never exceeds two weeks. And I think you know that.

That isn't true at all. While vacation is mandated by law, most companies in the US do offer paid vacation (and significantly more than you stated) as a way to attract top talent.

Americans are more likely than Europeans/Canadians to take domestic vacations as the US is a larger and more geographically diverse country than most European countries and Canada. Also culturally, Americans do not take long vacations. Even if you have 3+ weeks, very few would take that many days together all at once.
 
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United787
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:34 pm

Something I think that is missed here is that although we may not have charter holiday airlines, Americans do travel on package holidays. The vacation company just doesn't own the airline, instead they will buy deeply discounted fare classes in bulk from all the US airlines, including AA, UA and DL. I can't give any statistics on this but I think the package tourists are there, just in a little different form and probably in much less quantity.

That said, I think the freedom of choice runs deep in the American culture. I think American's would prefer to chose, control and decide all of the components of their vacation. One A-net "fact" is that American's prefer frequency over capacity when it comes to routes for business. I think the same could be said for leisure travel, they want to have options on what time of day they will fly and where they will connect (or not) as to maximize their vacation. American's are used to getting what they want, call it spoiled if you want, I don't mind. I signed up for a package once (my wife's idea). It was offered through Virgin Atlantic and it was for a few days in Paris. We got to choose the hotel but not the room. I just assumed we would be on VS but was very nervous about what we were signing up for since I had no idea what the flight(s) would be. Would they make us double connect ORD-JFK-LHR-CDG? What airlines would we be on? Would I be wasting a ton of my vacation at airports? (I know, A-Netter's wet dream). Turns out they put us on an AA 767 ORD-CDG. Although it was a crappy plane (with a 4" screen) and the fare class was so low I didn't earn miles, it was direct. I tell this story because although it turned out OK, the anxiety over the unknowns makes me not want to do it again.

A lot of good points but I wonder if there is some other things at play here:

1) A lot of American's have second homes within driving distance of their primary home. And it isn't just the wealthy. In Chicago, it is also a very middle-class thing, north woods cabins or lake houses in Wisconsin, Indiana and Michigan. People spend a lot of their vacation time at their second homes, year round. I have no idea how this compares to Europe but I wonder if this plays into it. Not for me, I like to experience different places but to each their own.

2) Also, I wonder if Americans tend to be more geographically mobile. Living in Chicago, there are a lot of transplants from all over the Midwest, in fact I would venture to say that 50% of our friends are from outside of Chicago and therefore spend a lot of time driving home for weekends, holidays or even extended stays. Again, I have no idea how this compares to Europe.

If these two points statistically differ from Europe at all, it would be easy to understand how the little vacation time we have can be eaten up by these factors.

And to my non-American friends who look down on the Americans that don't own passports, stop it, it is obnoxious and arrogant. Get out a map of the US and come visit. This country offers an incredible range of geographic diversity from high alpine mountain skiing to tropical scuba diving and everything in between. I love travelling in the US and outside of the country but I know many people who prefer not to leave the US and that is just fine.
 
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Polot
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:39 pm

United787 wrote:
2) Also, I wonder if Americans tend to be more geographically mobile. Living in Chicago, there are a lot of transplants from all over the Midwest, in fact I would venture to say that 50% of our friends are from outside of Chicago and therefore spend a lot of time driving home for weekends, holidays or even extended stays. Again, I have no idea how this compares to Europe.

As the old saying goes, 100 years is a long time in America, 100 miles is a long distance in Europe. People in Europe generally live much closer to extended family than the US which is a far more nomadic (for lack of better word) society. Although this has changed somewhat in Europe with the EU and opening up of borders/job opportunities across national lines.
 
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DolphinAir747
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:33 pm

There's a major geographic factor that no one has touched on. The USA is much closer to a wide range of tropical destinations than Europe is. Most states are within 3-5 hours' flight time to Mexico and the Caribbean (or Hawaii from the West Coast). Europe on the other hand doesn't have such tropical destinations. The Mediterranean area is windy and cloudy in winter, and definitely not warm enough to swim in, even in summer, so Europeans need to fly further, to the Caribbean or Indian Ocean, for a tropical beach holiday. The economics of a 4-hour beach flight aren't the same as for a 10-hour flight.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:41 pm

TWA302 wrote:
We actually spend about 10% of our salaries (according to Forbes- June 2017) on vacations each year. I think the thing is that many of us travel domestically.
Here is a great article about it. https://skift.com/2017/07/07/u-s-travelers-say-they-want-more-domestic-trips-this-year/

"U.S. travelers took nearly 14 million more trips in the United States than international trips during the 12-month stretch ending in February, according to MMGY Global’s 2017 Portrait of American Travelers report, citing concerns about political climates and safety abroad as likely reasons for the bump in domestic trips.

Domestic vacations made up 85 percent of total vacations taken by Americans, up seven percentage points from the prior year, based on MMGY Global’s survey of nearly 3,000 U.S. leisure travelers ages 18 and older in February."


Pretty much everywhere we want to go is either served by a regular airline or one of the smaller charters like XTRA, etc. Other's have tried and failed, like USA3000.

You are not the first person to have stated it, but it does seem to keep getting submerged or sidetracked.

I will happily confess that I am somewhat envious of Americans because you do have direct access to a large and varied country.

If you want to go somewhere warm during the winter; just drive (or fly) south.
If you want a beach holiday, try California, or Florida, or.....Hawaii even.
If you want spectacular world renowned natural attractions, choose from Yellowstone, Grand Canyon, Niagara, and so much more.
Do you want fishing? Do want to see wildlife? I hear the Rockies are pretty cool.
Do you want to go skiing? Aspen, Mammoth, and.... is there even a state that doesn't have a ski resort? I guess FL. It's too flat. :rotfl:
Perhaps you want a big city experience - yeah, you've got a few of them too.
Me? I fancy a vineyard tour, drinking my way from SFO up thru Sonoma County, down the Napa Valley, and finishing up on the Russian River. About two weeks should cover it. :D

So, I can see there isn't the same need to own a passport and leave US soil every year.
And I'm saying that as a non-US citizen.

EDIT; Within the last hour United787 has indeed covered some of these points (and others) - see the post two above this.
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:04 pm

United787 wrote:
Something I think that is missed here is that although we may not have charter holiday airlines, Americans do travel on package holidays. The vacation company just doesn't own the airline, instead they will buy deeply discounted fare classes in bulk from all the US airlines, including AA, UA and DL. I can't give any statistics on this but I think the package tourists are there, just in a little different form and probably in much less quantity.


If I'm using the term correctly, I would say US tour packages tend to be more on the "dynamic packaging" side (Where the customers get to pick what they want, then the tour operator give them the price), while the European holidaymaker sale stuff they want to sale (i.e. their own flights, linked hotels, etc.) for higher commission. The former is on the rise while the latter is on the decline, anyway.

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
TWA302 wrote:
We actually spend about 10% of our salaries (according to Forbes- June 2017) on vacations each year. I think the thing is that many of us travel domestically.
Here is a great article about it. https://skift.com/2017/07/07/u-s-travelers-say-they-want-more-domestic-trips-this-year/

"U.S. travelers took nearly 14 million more trips in the United States than international trips during the 12-month stretch ending in February, according to MMGY Global’s 2017 Portrait of American Travelers report, citing concerns about political climates and safety abroad as likely reasons for the bump in domestic trips.

Domestic vacations made up 85 percent of total vacations taken by Americans, up seven percentage points from the prior year, based on MMGY Global’s survey of nearly 3,000 U.S. leisure travelers ages 18 and older in February."


Pretty much everywhere we want to go is either served by a regular airline or one of the smaller charters like XTRA, etc. Other's have tried and failed, like USA3000.

You are not the first person to have stated it, but it does seem to keep getting submerged or sidetracked.

I will happily confess that I am somewhat envious of Americans because you do have direct access to a large and varied country.

If you want to go somewhere warm during the winter; just drive (or fly) south.
If you want a beach holiday, try California, or Florida, or.....Hawaii even.
If you want spectacular world renowned natural attractions, choose from Yellowstone, Grand Canyon, Niagara, and so much more.
Do you want fishing? Do want to see wildlife? I hear the Rockies are pretty cool.
Do you want to go skiing? Aspen, Mammoth, and.... is there even a state that doesn't have a ski resort? I guess FL. It's too flat. :rotfl:
Perhaps you want a big city experience - yeah, you've got a few of them too.
Me? I fancy a vineyard tour, drinking my way from SFO up thru Sonoma County, down the Napa Valley, and finishing up on the Russian River. About two weeks should cover it. :D

So, I can see there isn't the same need to own a passport and leave US soil every year.
And I'm saying that as a non-US citizen.

EDIT; Within the last hour United787 has indeed covered some of these points (and others) - see the post two above this.


You pretty much sums it up.

Ultimately, if you're talking about an American not leaving even their state, that's one thing (Even though some American DO never leave their state). But the equivalent of going to a different country in Europe is like going to another state in US anyway, distance-wise. And it feel especially long when you lived in a middle of a big state, area-wise. (Let say, Austin in Texas. Drive 4 hours each way you're still in Texas :rotfl: )
 
Dominion301
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:37 am

STLflyer wrote:
Do the European and Canadian leisure airlines provide anything that their respective country's flag carriers don't? Thomas Cook and TUI fly London-Cancun, but so does BA. Condor flies Frankfurt-Cancun, but so does Lufthansa. Ditto for XL and Air France.

Are the holiday airlines cheaper, or do they provide amazing package deals? All other things being just about equal, I'm trying to figure out why you'd fly one of those. If I were in France, I think I'd prefer to keep all my flying to Air France and accumulate miles on one program. If you fly AF for domestic and international flights to non-holiday destinations, and XL for flights to holiday destinations, you're accumulating miles on two separate programs and making it harder to achieve any sort of status or redeem them. It does you no good to have a few thousand miles spread across several different programs, as opposed to 30,000 miles on one program.


Yes, especially Sunwing. AC fly south a lot but only from their focus cities and hub cities. WG will take people from the likes of Rouyn and Sept-Iles, Quebec or Sudbury, Ontario that AC would never do. WS is somewhere in between, offering at least 1x weekly sun flight from most of their mainline cities. TS only begrudgingly started serving secondary sun routes after losing so much marketshare to WG.
 
nine4nine
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:37 am

Now that Amazon has got its feet wet in Aviation, I predict in the next 5 years they will be running pax ops with package deals to Hawaii, the Caribbean and others.
717 727 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 742 748 752 753 762 763 772 773 DC9 MD80/88/90 DC10 319 320 321 332 333 CS100 CRJ200 Q400 E175 E190 ERJ145 EMB120
 
USAOZ
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Sat Jan 20, 2018 2:37 am

Rumour that a virtual airline will start flying usa west coast to Australian east coast direct in December 2018. Low frequency offering packaged holidays with some choices or airfare alone. As this is peak season not hard to undercut the big boys & sales will be from both ends & also one way. Apparently many people can find frequent flyer tickets in one direction that suits but not both or only have enough miles or points for one way.

All flights will be direct apparently, but direct doesn't necessarily mean nonstop. No idea which aircraft metal will operate the routes (it's a secret apparently).

From U.S. end, 2 week packages mean 12 nights in OZ. From OZ end 14 nights in USA, 16 nights away.

Some flexibility with dates, eg. one way as above & if return dates don't suit fly home on regular scheduled flights, which will apparently still work out much cheaper than regular scheduled flights in both directions.

Where will virtual airline be based ?

Silicone Valley & in Australia apparently. Watch this space for more info, as will post as we find out more.
 
guyanam
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:02 am

Polot wrote:
[I think it is pretty clear you are not an American if you think that most of us only get one day of vacation for every year we work for a company, and that it never exceeds 2 weeks. Either that or you work for a very, very, very, crappy company.


They are talking about factory workers. Must professionals who have been around for a while get at least 3 weeks plus personal days. In fact many people even take off the day before a major holiday even if they don't have travel plans. Not likely if all they get is a measly time off.

Americans are more inclined to take many short vacations during the year than the annual 2 weeks that many Europeans take. I will agree that Americans are less inclined to travel long distances, and this in keeping with their desire to take several vacations within a year.
 
guyanam
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:11 am

United787 wrote:
:

1) A lot And to my non-American friends who look down on the Americans that don't own passports, stop it, it is obnoxious and arrogant. Get out a map of the US and come visit. This country offers an incredible range of geographic diversity from high alpine mountain skiing to tropical scuba diving and everything in between. I love travelling in the US and outside of the country but I know many people who prefer not to leave the US and that is just fine.



This is an important point. What people fail to understand is that there is tremendous migration across the vast swathes of the USA. In fact many take their vacation time to visit friends and relatives across the length and breadth of this country.

Anyone in NYC will know that there are hordes of people always traveling to FL because if they don't have second homes there they have relatives and/or friends.

I know that this defeats the Euro/Canadian notion that the American is a loud and ignorant braggart who doesn't travel beyond his front door. It must however be noted that the development of tourism in Mexico and the Caribbean came about because of the American traveler.
 
guyanam
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:15 am

zakuivcustom wrote:
Ultimately, if you're talking about an American not leaving even their state, that's one thing (Even though some American DO never leave their state). But the equivalent of going to a different country in Europe is like going to another state in US anyway, distance-wise. And it feel especially long when you lived in a middle of a big state, area-wise. (Let say, Austin in Texas. Drive 4 hours each way you're still in Texas :rotfl: )



Yes the scale of the USA is such that each Euro country is often merely equivalent to a state. NYC to Miami is LONGER than is Frankfurt from Madrid. Yet it is a domestic trip.
 
USAOZ
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:18 am

guyanam wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:
Ultimately, if you're talking about an American not leaving even their state, that's one thing (Even though some American DO never leave their state). But the equivalent of going to a different country in Europe is like going to another state in US anyway, distance-wise. And it feel especially long when you lived in a middle of a big state, area-wise. (Let say, Austin in Texas. Drive 4 hours each way you're still in Texas :rotfl: )



Yes the scale of the USA is such that each Euro country is often merely equivalent to a state. NYC to Miami is LONGER than is Frankfurt from Madrid. Yet it is a domestic trip.

in Australia you can fly for 2 hours & still be in same state, ie. in Queensland, CNS/BNE or CNS/OOL. To drive the same would take days. (most of roads are 1 lane each way, except around cities eg. within 90 mins drive of BNE)

In Western Australia you can probably fly for 3 hours & still be in same state & we're not talking 2 seaters, but big commercial jets.
 
USAOZ
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:27 am

New US travel coalition aims to arrest slide in inbound tourism

http://www.travelmole.com/news_feature. ... id=2030666

A U.S. leisure airline doesn't have to just cater for Americans. In fact, its focus could be foreigners.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:59 am

USAOZ wrote:
guyanam wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:
Ultimately, if you're talking about an American not leaving even their state, that's one thing (Even though some American DO never leave their state). But the equivalent of going to a different country in Europe is like going to another state in US anyway, distance-wise. And it feel especially long when you lived in a middle of a big state, area-wise. (Let say, Austin in Texas. Drive 4 hours each way you're still in Texas :rotfl: )



Yes the scale of the USA is such that each Euro country is often merely equivalent to a state. NYC to Miami is LONGER than is Frankfurt from Madrid. Yet it is a domestic trip.

in Australia you can fly for 2 hours & still be in same state, ie. in Queensland, CNS/BNE or CNS/OOL. To drive the same would take days. (most of roads are 1 lane each way, except around cities eg. within 90 mins drive of BNE)

In Western Australia you can probably fly for 3 hours & still be in same state & we're not talking 2 seaters, but big commercial jets.


You can't really compare Australia to US or Europe due to its much lower population density, though (US itself is not that high either). On a side note, since you're talking about OZ, there are zero leisure airlines AFAIK based in Australia also, and Aussies certainly travel quite a bit to sun destinations (They've all those Pacific Islands to pick from along with SE Asia).

USAOZ wrote:
New US travel coalition aims to arrest slide in inbound tourism

http://www.travelmole.com/news_feature. ... id=2030666

A U.S. leisure airline doesn't have to just cater for Americans. In fact, its focus could be foreigners.


This article is actually more complete:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... st-problem

The biggest drop is from Europe (-20+%) then from Brazil (Its economy is a mess) and India (No clue about this...). Of course, before anyone blame that certain person that doesn't get to go to Mar-a-Lago this weekend :cry2: , the numbers are from 2015-2017.

guyanam wrote:
I know that this defeats the Euro/Canadian notion that the American is a loud and ignorant braggart who doesn't travel beyond his front door. It must however be noted that the development of tourism in Mexico and the Caribbean came about because of the American traveler.


Meh....as someone living in US, I can always just stereotype all those Brit travelers as total drunk that cause nothing but trouble wherever they goes. And since they travel everywhere, they left their mark everywhere from Ibiza to Phuket. :duck:

Of course, come Spring Break time Cancun would be full of those Americans also :scratchchin: :duck:
 
USAOZ
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:52 am

zakuivcustom wrote:
USAOZ wrote:
guyanam wrote:


Yes the scale of the USA is such that each Euro country is often merely equivalent to a state. NYC to Miami is LONGER than is Frankfurt from Madrid. Yet it is a domestic trip.

in Australia you can fly for 2 hours & still be in same state, ie. in Queensland, CNS/BNE or CNS/OOL. To drive the same would take days. (most of roads are 1 lane each way, except around cities eg. within 90 mins drive of BNE)

In Western Australia you can probably fly for 3 hours & still be in same state & we're not talking 2 seaters, but big commercial jets.


You can't really compare Australia to US or Europe due to its much lower population density, though (US itself is not that high either). On a side note, since you're talking about OZ, there are zero leisure airlines AFAIK based in Australia also, and Aussies certainly travel quite a bit to sun destinations (They've all those Pacific Islands to pick from along with SE Asia).

USAOZ wrote:
New US travel coalition aims to arrest slide in inbound tourism

http://www.travelmole.com/news_feature. ... id=2030666

A U.S. leisure airline doesn't have to just cater for Americans. In fact, its focus could be foreigners.


This article is actually more complete:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... st-problem

The biggest drop is from Europe (-20+%) then from Brazil (Its economy is a mess) and India (No clue about this...). Of course, before anyone blame that certain person that doesn't get to go to Mar-a-Lago this weekend :cry2: , the numbers are from 2015-2017.

guyanam wrote:
I know that this defeats the Euro/Canadian notion that the American is a loud and ignorant braggart who doesn't travel beyond his front door. It must however be noted that the development of tourism in Mexico and the Caribbean came about because of the American traveler.


Meh....as someone living in US, I can always just stereotype all those Brit travelers as total drunk that cause nothing but trouble wherever they goes. And since they travel everywhere, they left their mark everywhere from Ibiza to Phuket. :duck:

Of course, come Spring Break time Cancun would be full of those Americans also :scratchchin: :duck:

Jetstar & Tiger Australia are leisure airlines in oz. Tiger only flies domestically at this stage but this could change very soon
 
dc10lover
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Sat Jan 20, 2018 2:23 pm

Amazing how many airlines are in Europe. Seems airfares are very cheap with all the competition.
Why endure the nightmare and congestion of LAX when BUR, LGB, ONT & SNA is so much easier to fly in and out of. Same with OAK & SJC when it comes to SFO.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:11 pm

USAOZ wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:
USAOZ wrote:
in Australia you can fly for 2 hours & still be in same state, ie. in Queensland, CNS/BNE or CNS/OOL. To drive the same would take days. (most of roads are 1 lane each way, except around cities eg. within 90 mins drive of BNE)

In Western Australia you can probably fly for 3 hours & still be in same state & we're not talking 2 seaters, but big commercial jets.


You can't really compare Australia to US or Europe due to its much lower population density, though (US itself is not that high either). On a side note, since you're talking about OZ, there are zero leisure airlines AFAIK based in Australia also, and Aussies certainly travel quite a bit to sun destinations (They've all those Pacific Islands to pick from along with SE Asia).

USAOZ wrote:
New US travel coalition aims to arrest slide in inbound tourism

http://www.travelmole.com/news_feature. ... id=2030666

A U.S. leisure airline doesn't have to just cater for Americans. In fact, its focus could be foreigners.


This article is actually more complete:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... st-problem

The biggest drop is from Europe (-20+%) then from Brazil (Its economy is a mess) and India (No clue about this...). Of course, before anyone blame that certain person that doesn't get to go to Mar-a-Lago this weekend :cry2: , the numbers are from 2015-2017.

guyanam wrote:
I know that this defeats the Euro/Canadian notion that the American is a loud and ignorant braggart who doesn't travel beyond his front door. It must however be noted that the development of tourism in Mexico and the Caribbean came about because of the American traveler.


Meh....as someone living in US, I can always just stereotype all those Brit travelers as total drunk that cause nothing but trouble wherever they goes. And since they travel everywhere, they left their mark everywhere from Ibiza to Phuket. :duck:

Of course, come Spring Break time Cancun would be full of those Americans also :scratchchin: :duck:

Jetstar & Tiger Australia are leisure airlines in oz. Tiger only flies domestically at this stage but this could change very soon


But ultimately Jetstar and Tigerair Australia are LCCs, with a operating model more similar to the like of Jetblue/Southwest than Thomas Cook/TUIfly. Which is why I stated that OZ doesn't really have a true "leisure airlines" either. And you gave me the reason already - bc Jetstar/Tigerair Australia already fulfill that role.

It is not much different in US - you got mainline US3 fulfilling a fair amount of leisure demand, B6 and their Caribbean operation fulfill yet another sector, the rest is your niche player in G4, which is definitely a leisure focus airlines with their bread and butter being carrying pax from small cities/towns to sun destinations. There is just not a need for "true" leisure airlines like TUI.
 
VV
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:51 pm

SmithAir747 wrote:
VV wrote:
What's a holiday?


In the context of this thread, a "holiday" is British English for what we in the US call a "vacation".


Under Trump administration, do workers have holidays?
 
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RayChuang
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:10 pm

Actually, here in the USA, there ARE package tours--but they almost exclusively use current air carriers (the legacies like AA, DL and UA) and newer LCC's like B6 and WN. For example, from Sacramento, CA I could book a full vacation to Disney World including air travel, but in almost all cases the airline used will be DL (Disney World's official airline) or WN (that airline has a major hub at MCO).

The European model of a package holiday where one company uses its own charter airline and a local hotel selected by a charter company is kind of a unique experience. The Japanese have (what appears to me) an even more insular vacation package experience, flying on NH or JL to certain holiday destinations and using resorts that are sometimes partially owned by the airlines themselves.
 
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litz
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:28 am

A few thoughts here ...

As noted above, the main US airlines cater to all aspects of customers, including vacation travel.

But what hasn't really been mentioned is that here in the US, the vast amount of recreational vacation travel is BY CAR.

You DRIVE to the beach, to grandma's, etc. I know for myself, every time I head to my parents' house, that's a 4 to 5 hour drive from GA to SC (75S, 16E, 95N).

Air travel is only used for distances too far to drive (coast to coast, to Denver to ski, Orlando for theme parks, etc).

It's something that Europeans have a hard time really understanding ... Americans drive everywhere ... and for distances that, in Europe, could cross entire countries. Europeans, OTOH, take trains and cheap air travel. Totally different methods of travel.

You really just can't apply the model that works there, here .... it's just not compatible.
 
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RayChuang
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:49 am

litz, many also forget that if you overlay the Continental 48 states of the USA with Europe, note that the USA covers most of western and eastern Europe, including the European part of Russia! As such, what is normal for transportation in Europe doesn't work so well in the USA--hence the growth of two major low cost carrier (LCC) airlines after deregulation in 1978, Southwest (WN) and JetBlue (B6). With the growth of WN and B6, these airlines are now the preferred airlines for many package vacation tours. Indeed, WN essentially runs hubs at LAS and MCO just to accommodate all that tourist traffic going to and from Las Vegas, NV and Orlando, FL.
 
Elementalism
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Sun Jan 21, 2018 3:18 am

There used to be large tour operators in the US back in the 70s and 80s and into the 90s. But they seemed to die off once people were able to purchase airline and hotel tickets online. As for why the % of Americans dont leave the country. Well look at the size of the country. Mainland United States covers sizeable area compared to Europe. With some states larger than most European countries. With a country that big one can see any climate or culture they want. So we do not have the requirement to leave the country to get away. Europeans may go to the south coast of France for beach time. People in the US go to Florida without having to leave the country. If they get exotic go to Hawaii or the US Virgin Islands.

Further as the markets open up via things like Air BnB. There is less and less a reason to pay the profit margin on a tour operator or travel agent.
Last edited by Elementalism on Sun Jan 21, 2018 3:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
AirCalSNA
Posts: 393
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Sun Jan 21, 2018 3:23 am

RayChuang wrote:
litz, many also forget that if you overlay the Continental 48 states of the USA with Europe, note that the USA covers most of western and eastern Europe, including the European part of Russia! As such, what is normal for transportation in Europe doesn't work so well in the USA--hence the growth of two major low cost carrier (LCC) airlines after deregulation in 1978, Southwest (WN) and JetBlue (B6). With the growth of WN and B6, these airlines are now the preferred airlines for many package vacation tours. Indeed, WN essentially runs hubs at LAS and MCO just to accommodate all that tourist traffic going to and from Las Vegas, NV and Orlando, FL.


And when you take into account all 50 states you see that you can fly for 10 hours and still not have left the US.
 
Elementalism
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Sun Jan 21, 2018 3:27 am

AirCalSNA wrote:
RayChuang wrote:
litz, many also forget that if you overlay the Continental 48 states of the USA with Europe, note that the USA covers most of western and eastern Europe, including the European part of Russia! As such, what is normal for transportation in Europe doesn't work so well in the USA--hence the growth of two major low cost carrier (LCC) airlines after deregulation in 1978, Southwest (WN) and JetBlue (B6). With the growth of WN and B6, these airlines are now the preferred airlines for many package vacation tours. Indeed, WN essentially runs hubs at LAS and MCO just to accommodate all that tourist traffic going to and from Las Vegas, NV and Orlando, FL.


And when you take into account all 50 states you see that you can fly for 10 hours and still not have left the US.


Funny story. My dad took off out of Houston on his war to Colorado Springs in I think a comanche. They had a head wind and 6 hours later had to land to get fuel in some small airport in West Texas. 6 hours of flying and didnt even get out of Texas :D
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:21 am

VV wrote:
SmithAir747 wrote:
VV wrote:
What's a holiday?


In the context of this thread, a "holiday" is British English for what we in the US call a "vacation".


Under Trump administration, do workers have holidays?


A bunch of federal workers definitely do beginning next week :D :duck:

RayChuang wrote:
The European model of a package holiday where one company uses its own charter airline and a local hotel selected by a charter company is kind of a unique experience. The Japanese have (what appears to me) an even more insular vacation package experience, flying on NH or JL to certain holiday destinations and using resorts that are sometimes partially owned by the airlines themselves.


Well, it depends where the package is in. And the largest travel operator, JTB, is partially own by both JL and NH (along with JR Group and a bunch of other transport operator), which means at least you don't have JAL tour selling JL tickets and staying only at Hotel Nikko all the time :scratchchin: . And I don't think Japanese are the type that just stayed in their hotel anyway.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:24 pm

At nearly 200 posts in, maybe it's time for some facts.

I looked at two comparable destinations (IMO); Jamaica (Montego Bay) and Fuerteventura (one of the Canary Island group)
Both are reliable winter-sun destinations
Both are islands, offering no land travel alternative, and no option for a short ferry ride either.

Today, Sunday 21st February
FUE schedule flights today total 28 and include;
Corendon (AMS), DAT (Denmark, x2 flts)), Easyjet, Edelweiss, Eurowings, Finnair, Iberia, Jet2 (x3 flts), Luxair, Neos, Transavia, TUI Jetair (x2 flts), Voltea (x3), vueling and Wizz.
Oh yes, and Ryanair..... x7 flts from five different countries.
So, no BA, AF, SK or LH, and even IB can only manage a single service.

Meanwhile, over in the Caribbean, there are 50 flights listed for MBJ today
Representing the USA; AA(x8 flts), DL (x6), Southwest (x6), JetBlue (x3), United (x2), plus one each from Spirit & SunCountry
Representing Canada; SunWing (x 6 flts), WestJet (x4), Transat (x2), and one each from AC and Rouge.
Representing Europe; Condor (x2), plus one each from Eurowings, Thomas Cook (Sweden), TUI Jetair (Belgium) , and Virgin (UK)
There were also two flights from Caribbean Airlines (BW) and one from COPA (Panama) just to complete the picture.

Apart from the LCCs cluttering up the picture on both sides of the Atlantic, the picture is pretty stark.
US travellers can select from the same airlines they would fly within the USA, short or long haul, for business or pleasure.
Canadians and Europeans simply do not have that option.

Whether that is a good thing or a bad thing is anybody's guess. :D


Fun Fact; G-VYGL is actually an RAF A332 MRTT/KC3, seen here in it's original plain grey camouflage, operating a Thomas Cook charter to Gran Canaria, with no evidence of the air-to-air refuelling pods. More recently it was caught in a basic Jet2 livery, but it was back at Montego Bay just three days ago flying TB302 to Brussels for TUI Jetair (Belgium).
:rotfl:
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
Dominion301
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:22 am

Another big difference between Canada and the US in terms of international sun flights is that a lot of small US airports don’t have customs facilities, whereas in Canada just about any community in Canada with a runway that can handle a 737 has CBSA customs.

And yet another major difference is that a lot of the US population live in a much warmer climate than Canadians located in the warmest of winter locales do, namely the west coast of BC, where an average high in Vancouver or Victoria is about 6C and usually it’s raining and damp on a day like that, so there’s also a naturally larger demand for Canadians to go south than Americans. Look at what the post above says about US (27) vs Canada (14) demand to MBJ. The US’ population is 9x bigger than Canada’s yet the flight offering from MBJ to the US is less than 2x that of Canadian flights...and many of those US flights would have some pax connecting to Canada!
 
alan3
Topic Author
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:09 am

For those saying Americans don't need to leave the US because they have their own beaches, in that case I guess I would wonder why in comparison huge numbers of Australians per year go to Bali, Thailand and Fiji despite having some of the world's best beaches of their own (not to mention jungles and deserts). In fact many Australians visit Bali in December when the weather in Australia is actually better than Bali. Jetstar alone flies to 9 Australian cities from Bali.
 
melpax
Posts: 1882
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 12:13 am

Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:33 am

[quote="alan3"][/quote]

It's much cheaper for Aussies to holiday in Bali or Thailand than at home, especially during the peak School Holiday periods. The North Queensland resorts in particular can be very pricey in comparison with Bali or Thai resorts. Airfares to places such as Darwin, Cairns or Townsville can be expensive as well.
Essendon - Whatever it takes......
 
USAOZ
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:44 am

alan3 wrote:
For those saying Americans don't need to leave the US because they have their own beaches, in that case I guess I would wonder why in comparison huge numbers of Australians per year go to Bali, Thailand and Fiji despite having some of the world's best beaches of their own (not to mention jungles and deserts). In fact many Australians visit Bali in December when the weather in Australia is actually better than Bali. Jetstar alone flies to 9 Australian cities from Bali.
there aren't 9 OZ cities period.

all I can think of
BNE,
OOL
SYD
MEL
ADL
PER

TSV is about to lose their DPS flights, but TSV is not a city.
 
JibberJim
Posts: 70
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:37 am

Fuerteventura - tiny island, not the main tourist destination even of the group of islands it's in.
Montego Bay - busiest airport of a large country, although obviously the tourist part of it, meaning a lot of the traffic is to it.

An odd thing about your stats (50 flights vs 28) is that FUE handles 6.7m passengers and 45k movements against MBJ's 3.9m and 35k movements, so I think whereas facts are great, I'm not sure this random sunday can be very representative of the total traffic for the two airports, as FUE is a lot busier over the whole year (although I'm not sure)

Really though the big difference between those in the markets is not the charter airlines, it's the scheduled low cost replacing the legacy.. Of course I still think this is mainly due to the different market, the ability of the low cost airlines to stimulate market due to different vacation and worker flows is what allowed them to build up to their size.
 
westgate
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:01 am

Not sure if thus has already been mentioned, but one main reason for the proliferation of holiday airlines in Europe compared to the USA is the absolutely dire weather conditions there, particularly in North West Europe where the vast majority of holiday passengers originate from countries such as the UK, Germany, Netherlands and Scandinavia. The major population centres in Europe are much farther north than in North America, New York is about the same latitude as Madrid. What keeps Europe so warm for it's latitude is the Gulf Stream, which brings warm air up from the Carribean, but this also means that the areas of Europe most effected by it i.e. Northwestern Europe (which also happens to be the most densely populated) have interminably cloudy skies for most of the year . . . and even right through summer !!! The UK and Ireland are probably the worse effected, although they don't get as cold as say Germany in winter, they also don't get as hot and sunny in summer either. If a family for instance wants a decent hot beach vacation in the middle of summer when the kids are on holiday then they HAVE to book a trip to Spain/Greece. In those destination you're pretty much guaranteed good weather, especially in August, but in the UK you would be lucky if you got even one sunny day and if it didn't rain the whole time !!!

Almost everywhere in the USA will have decent weather in summer, and no one wants to go to Florida or the Carribean in the middle of August, whereas in Europe, Southern Europe is at its best in the middle of summer so not only do Northern Europeans head there in the middle of winter but also throughout the entire year. The entire holiday airline business model in Europe is pretty much built on Northern Europeans desperately trying to escape the crap weather conditions that they have to endure for the entire year. As soon as cheap flights became available, it was the end of the traditional beach destinations in the UK such as Blackpool and Brighton and hello to Benidorm and Marbella !!! That aspect of the culture drastically changed in the 60's, 70's and 80's when the holiday airlines really began to take foot. And these holidays are usually very affordable even for those on some of the lowest income brackets.

Also gas/petrol is way more expensive in Europe than the USA, as are all aspects of owning/running a car, so road trips are really not very popular at all. And in particular for the UK, it's on an island and it's left hand drive as opposed to right hand drive on the continent. Road tripping to Spain for example would require at 2 ferry rides and driving on the wrong side of the road for most of the trip !!!
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:17 pm

JibberJim wrote:
Fuerteventura - tiny island, not the main tourist destination even of the group of islands it's in.
Montego Bay - busiest airport of a large country, although obviously the tourist part of it, meaning a lot of the traffic is to it.

You are so right! Apart from similar pax numbers, I can't think of any reason to compare the two. :sarcastic:

Jamaica population 2.8million, .... plus 3.9m pax thru MBJ (plus another 1.6m thru Kingston KIN)

Fuerteventura population 74,983 ...... plus 4.5million passengers through FUE :rotfl:

If you can find a pair of holiday destinations that are a better fit, be my guest. I have used 4.5 million pax for FUE as more representative of a slowly increasing average since 2000. BTW I opted out of using TFS because I would still be here listing the 53 airlines and counting all the flights.

JibberJim wrote:
Really though the big difference between those in the markets is not the charter airlines, it's the scheduled low cost replacing the legacy.. Of course I still think this is mainly due to the different market, the ability of the low cost airlines to stimulate market due to different vacation and worker flows is what allowed them to build up to their size.
You should add that your comment only applies to the Montego Bay stats.

In the case of FUE, there never were any legacy airlines with noticeable services. Before the advent of Ryanair etc, FUE was 100% charter airlines.

The rise of LCC flights at FUE is competition for the established charter airlines (hence the demise of Monarch etc), and due in part to the internet, which allows modern tourists to bypass traditional travel agents, book their accommodation directly, and then find a flight only deal. There is also a year on year increased demand for flights only from the increasingly wealthy older generation who these days now own timeshares or whole apartments. And when the old'uns are not there, younger family members can book a last minute flight at just 24 hrs notice, knowing their accommodation is already sorted. The traditional package holiday (flight + accommodation) is a decreasing part of the bigger picture.

(But that's the just the Euro perspective for comparison.)
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
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Polot
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:49 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
You are so right! Apart from similar pax numbers, I can't think of any reason to compare the two. :sarcastic:

Jamaica population 2.8million, .... plus 3.9m pax thru MBJ (plus another 1.6m thru Kingston KIN)

Fuerteventura population 74,983 ...... plus 4.5million passengers through FUE :rotfl:

If you can find a pair of holiday destinations that are a better fit, be my guest. I have used 4.5 million pax for FUE as more representative of a slowly increasing average since 2000. BTW I opted out of using TFS because I would still be here listing the 53 airlines and counting all the flights.

PUJ (Punta Cana, DR) would probably be a better comparison with FUE than MBJ.

FUE also has over 6million pax a year now btw.



Another issue that hasn't come up is that America (and other North/South American countries) doesn't really have that many former colonial ties to islands on the other side of the world (there is what, the Philippines for about 50 years?). Barbados, for example, is extremely popular with British tourists...and use to be a British territory until the mid 1960s.
Last edited by Polot on Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:54 pm

Elementalism wrote:
Further as the markets open up via things like Air BnB. There is less and less a reason to pay the profit margin on a tour operator or travel agent.
Have you seen the fees charged by Air BnB or VRBO? You are paying their profit margin.
 
UWPAviation
Posts: 101
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:36 pm

Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:38 pm

It really depends where you are going for your holiday.

If you are going to be traveling withing the US it really does not matter what airline you take.

If you are going to the Caribbean, most of the flights are charter flights. Which are just operated by the normal airlines anyway, Frontier, American, Delta etc.

So to answer your question, all US airlines are holiday airlines.
 
hohd
Posts: 749
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:50 pm

About 50 to 60% of US population have passports and this only because of the requirement to use it for travel to Canada and Mexico (by air). However many of the immigrants who have come here after 60's travel out of country a lot. There are all kinds of Americans, and these Americans do travel and increasingly as they become larger part of the population you will see more travelling.

Often the package deals on leisure airlines in US are no better than the ones from established carriers, so they are not as popular.

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