Brickell305
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:13 pm

UWPAviation wrote:
It really depends where you are going for your holiday.

If you are going to be traveling withing the US it really does not matter what airline you take.

If you are going to the Caribbean, most of the flights are charter flights. Which are just operated by the normal airlines anyway, Frontier, American, Delta etc.

So to answer your question, all US airlines are holiday airlines.


What do you mean?
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:31 pm

Polot wrote:
SheikhDjibouti wrote:
You are so right! Apart from similar pax numbers, I can't think of any reason to compare the two. :sarcastic:

Jamaica population 2.8million, .... plus 3.9m pax thru MBJ (plus another 1.6m thru Kingston KIN)

Fuerteventura population 74,983 ...... plus 4.5million passengers through FUE :rotfl:

If you can find a pair of holiday destinations that are a better fit, be my guest. I have used 4.5 million pax for FUE as more representative of a slowly increasing average since 2000. BTW I opted out of using TFS because I would still be here listing the 53 airlines and counting all the flights.

PUJ (Punta Cana, DR) would probably be a better comparison with FUE than MBJ.

FUE also has over 6million pax a year now btw.


If the goal is to find a close-to-100-percent leisure market, PUJ is a great choice. But, it has scheduled service on all three US legacies to a dozen cities or so in season, so it is still quite different from FUE.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
guyanam
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:36 pm

Polot wrote:
Barbados, for example, is extremely popular with British tourists...and use to be a British territory until the mid 1960s.


PUJ will show the same dichotomy. Leisure charters out of Europe and Canada and scheduled carriers out of the US.

BGI is not a mass market all-inclusive destination so leisure charters out of the UK are winter focused with much of it tied to cruises which home port on that island, so not tied to hotel packages on the island . BA and VS are the dominant carriers. Out of Canada its AC Rouge and WS with B6 and AA out of the US.

The large leisure carriers prefer the low cost mass market high volume all inclusive destinations patronized by Canadians and Europeans. Note that AC Rouge isn't only a leisure carrier as it services VFR destinations like KIN, PAP and POS. Even islands like BGI are heavily VFR outside of the winter peak.
 
guyanam
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:44 pm

UWPAviation wrote:
So to answer your question, all US airlines are holiday airlines.


What might surprise some is that the peak period for travel between the USA and the Caribbean is in the summer, NOT the winter. Why? Well in addition to leisure travel there is also heavy VFR travel and also NORTHBOUND travel from the Caribbean to the USA.

B6 is every bit a VFR carrier to the Caribbean as it is a holiday carrier flying US leisure tourists. In fact the bulk of its business to the DR, by far its largest Caribbean destination, is VFR. Its does way more into SDQ and STI than it does into PUJ and POP.

The dynamics of travel between the Caribbean and the USA is just very different than it is from Germany to the Caribbean. Its year round and diverse in terms of the markets served. Germany is 99% travel by Germans on package tours mainly to all inclusive resorts and mainly during the winter.
 
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Polot
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:45 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
If the goal is to find a close-to-100-percent leisure market, PUJ is a great choice. But, it has scheduled service on all three US legacies to a dozen cities or so in season, so it is still quite different from FUE.

I'm not exactly sure how that makes it different from FUE. FUE has scheduled service with EI, OS (seasonally), BA, SN, AY, IB[/IB Express], LH (seasonally), and SAS. The only Euro legacies that are really missing from there are AZ, KL, and AF (KL/AF group operations handled by Transavia instead).

guyanam wrote:
PUJ will show the same dichotomy. Leisure charters out of Europe and Canada and scheduled carriers out of the US.

Every airport will show that dichotomy because maybe with the exception of G4 (although not charter) and a handful of tiny virtual airlines there are no "leisure charter" carriers in the US.

The US3 also don't have LCC arms like the EU3 (Vueling, Transavia, Eurowings).
Last edited by Polot on Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
guyanam
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:14 pm

Polot wrote:
guyanam wrote:
PUJ will show the same dichotomy. Leisure charters out of Europe and Canada and scheduled carriers out of the US.

Every airport will show that dichotomy because maybe with the exception of G4 (although not charter) and a handful of tiny virtual airlines there are no "leisure charter" carriers in the US.

The US3 also don't have LCC arms like the EU3 (Vueling, Transavia, Eurowings).


The fact that the US3 don't do what the EU3 do is the point. Americans don't want that except to a degree from parts of the country where Caribbean travel is highly seasonal and scheduled service is limited, and even here most will use the US3 via their hubs.

BGI doesn't have the dichotomy to the degree that PUJ does. Its AC Rouge, WS and out of the UK BA and VS are a massive presence. AC Rouge isn't just a vacation carrier as they do fly to PAP, KIN and POS which aren't leisure destinations, with WS to the latter two as well. AC Rouge and WS are as interested in travel by Barbadians/Jamaicans (both island and Canada based) as they are in purely leisure travel by Canadians to that island.

Caribbean destinations where tourism is mass based all inclusive will show that dichotomy. Islands like BGI, and ANU which aren't will show less of this out of Canada and the UK where scheduled carriers do exist. While Euro leisure carriers do service the smaller islands, their main focus is DR, Cuba and Jamaica to a lesser degree.
 
Route66
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:52 pm

Perhaps the better question is why don't European legacies better serve their customers? Why do Europeans need to use second and third-tier airlines for holiday service?
 
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Polot
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:56 pm

Route66 wrote:
Perhaps the better question is why don't European legacies better serve their customers? Why do Europeans need to use second and third-tier airlines for holiday service?

Well the elephant in the room is that the US airlines have a lower cost base, with more flexible work rules, so they can better serve the lower yielding markets themselves and still make money.
 
alan3
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:58 pm

USAOZ wrote:
alan3 wrote:
For those saying Americans don't need to leave the US because they have their own beaches, in that case I guess I would wonder why in comparison huge numbers of Australians per year go to Bali, Thailand and Fiji despite having some of the world's best beaches of their own (not to mention jungles and deserts). In fact many Australians visit Bali in December when the weather in Australia is actually better than Bali. Jetstar alone flies to 9 Australian cities from Bali.
there aren't 9 OZ cities period.

all I can think of
BNE,
OOL
SYD
MEL
ADL
PER

TSV is about to lose their DPS flights, but TSV is not a city.


I don't think you are correct that Australia doesn't even have 9 cities. Are you using your own personal definition of city or an official one?

But regardless, obviously I meant airports. According to Qantas website, there are flights from Denpasar to Adelaide, Brisbane, Cairns, Darwin, Melbourne, Perth, Sydney and Townsville. The 9th service, to Port Hedland, is served by VA.

My point being Australia is also a beachy country, like the US, yet many people choose to travel to international beach destinations.
 
guyanam
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:04 pm

alan3 wrote:
[My point being Australia is also a beachy country, like the US, yet many people choose to travel to international beach destinations.



But for the US market Caribbean tourism wouldn't exist so obviously Americans travel. It is only since the late 80s that there has been sufficient travel by Europeans to the Caribbean to merit direct air service. That is apart from flights to overseas territories and former colonies. ALL on legacy carriers like BA, AF, KL, and IB.

Caribbean tourism began in the 20s into Cuba and the Bahamas and in the 50s to other parts of the Caribbean. ALL based on travel by Americans seeking to escape the harsh northeastern winters.

14 million Americans visit the Caribbean accounting for more than 50% of total visits. 40 years ago Americans would have accounted for over 70% of the visits. Millions more visit Mexico. And that is in addition to the wide variety of domestic destinations, inclusive of Puerto Rico and the USVI. Australia doesn't have as much diversity as it is a mainly empty continent.
Last edited by guyanam on Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:15 pm

Route66 wrote:
Perhaps the better question is why don't European legacies better serve their customers? Why do Europeans need to use second and third-tier airlines for holiday service?

God bless you Sir, for finally spotting the elephant-in-the-room.

It is quite correct to ask the question why does Europe do it differently.
I have been trying to answer that question myself in various posts.

Historically, the Package Tour/Leisure Airlines from the UK plied their trade purely on short-haul holiday services. They flew to mainland Spain, the Balearics, Italy and Greece; destinations where there was no demand for a regular BEA or BOAC service. Then people got more adventurous, and dared to visit Turkey and Tunisia, and the Red Sea resorts sprang up. With more affluence, and second holidays (Winter Sun breaks) the 4½hr flight to the Canary Islands became an option. Meanwhile the Caribbean was still the preserve of the filthy rich, and BOAC/British Airways provided the only service.

More time passes, and people find themselves flying to Orlando for Disneyworld, Gambia, and Thailand. The "exclusive" Caribbean resorts become a little more affordable, and Cancun appears on the menu. The leisure airlines are no longer flying worn-out hand-me-downs such as ex BOAC Bristol Britannias and ex BEA Comets. No, these days they are rocking up with the latest A332 and B787 aircraft, often putting new types into service before the regular flag carrier (BA) gets even a sniff of one.
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
guyanam
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:25 pm

The leisure airlines are no longer flying worn-out hand-me-downs such as ex BOAC Bristol Britannias and ex BEA Comets. No, these days they are rocking up with the latest A332 and B787 aircraft, often putting new types into service before the regular flag carrier (BA) gets even a sniff of one.[/quote]


Yet BA and VS still dominate those markets in the Caribbean which aren't tied to mass market high volume all inclusive properties. Only MBJ and BGI get heavy service by the charters in the winter and much of this is to transport cruise passengers to ships that home port there.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:15 pm

Polot wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
If the goal is to find a close-to-100-percent leisure market, PUJ is a great choice. But, it has scheduled service on all three US legacies to a dozen cities or so in season, so it is still quite different from FUE.

I'm not exactly sure how that makes it different from FUE. FUE has scheduled service with EI, OS (seasonally), BA, SN, AY, IB[/IB Express], LH (seasonally), and SAS. The only Euro legacies that are really missing from there are AZ, KL, and AF (KL/AF group operations handled by Transavia instead).

You are such a tease!
FUE has around 250 services a week listed here
http://info.flightmapper.net/airport/FUE

Polot wrote:
"FUE has scheduled services with.....EI, OS, BA, SN, AY, LH, SK"

There is precisely ONE service listed for EI
There is precisely ONE service listed for OS
There is precisely ONE service listed for BA
There is precisely ONE service listed for SN
There is precisely ONE service listed for AY
There are precisely TWO services listed for LH
There is precisely ONE service listed for SK

In most cases the single service runs just once a week, not daily.
In the remaining cases, it is at best twice weekly service.

The real picture is found by examining the 23 flights from TUI Fly (from German airports), the 18 flights from Germania, the 11 flights from Condor
- not the two flights per week from LH
In fact, I wonder why LH (& the other legacy carriers ) bother turning up at all at FUE

PUJ has scheduled service on all three US legacies to a dozen cities ...
....with for instance 16 flight codes in use by AA alone, many of them daily flights

So whilst FUE has scheduled services from a number of Euro legacies, in nearly every case it is merely a statistical aberration, not a significant presence at FUE. This makes the situation dramatically different.

Nice try Polot, but the complete absence of any photos of the Euro flag carriers at FUE on the a.net database was a bit of a giveaway. :lol:

https://www.airliners.net/search?country ... lay=detail
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
Dominion301
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:32 pm

"In fact, I wonder why LH (& the other legacy carriers ) bother turning up at all at FUE"

It keeps their FF base happy for reward redemptions.
 
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Polot
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:39 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Polot wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
If the goal is to find a close-to-100-percent leisure market, PUJ is a great choice. But, it has scheduled service on all three US legacies to a dozen cities or so in season, so it is still quite different from FUE.

I'm not exactly sure how that makes it different from FUE. FUE has scheduled service with EI, OS (seasonally), BA, SN, AY, IB[/IB Express], LH (seasonally), and SAS. The only Euro legacies that are really missing from there are AZ, KL, and AF (KL/AF group operations handled by Transavia instead).

You are such a tease!
FUE has around 250 services a week listed here
http://info.flightmapper.net/airport/FUE

Polot wrote:
"FUE has scheduled services with.....EI, OS, BA, SN, AY, LH, SK"

There is precisely ONE service listed for EI
There is precisely ONE service listed for OS
There is precisely ONE service listed for BA
There is precisely ONE service listed for SN
There is precisely ONE service listed for AY
There are precisely TWO services listed for LH
There is precisely ONE service listed for SK

In most cases the single service runs just once a week, not daily.
In the remaining cases, it is at best twice weekly service.

The real picture is found by examining the 23 flights from TUI Fly (from German airports), the 18 flights from Germania, the 11 flights from Condor
- not the two flights per week from LH
In fact, I wonder why LH (& the other legacy carriers ) bother turning up at all at FUE

PUJ has scheduled service on all three US legacies to a dozen cities ...
....with for instance 16 flight codes in use by AA alone, many of them daily flights

So whilst FUE has scheduled services from a number of Euro legacies, in nearly every case it is merely a statistical aberration, not a significant presence at FUE. This makes the situation dramatically different.

Nice try Polot, but the complete absence of any photos of the Euro flag carriers at FUE on the a.net database was a bit of a giveaway. :lol:

https://www.airliners.net/search?country ... lay=detail


I'm not exactly sure your purpose of comparing two airports then. Obviously you are not going to find airports on opposite sides of the Atlantic that "match" in terms of "types" of airlines because obviously charter leisure airlines are popular in Europe but not in the US (the whole premise of this thread). You don't need to look at airports to determine that...you just have to look at list of airlines in a country. That doesn't mean Americans don't go on vacation however. You have to look at airports with similar travel demographics (hence why I suggested PUJ as a foil to FUE, as PUJ is very leisure traffic heavy just like FUE) and then look at the types of airlines serving the airport to see what passengers in the respective market opt for. And PUJ is a perfect example of what Americans do- they opt for US legacies or LCCs like B6 (big in PUJ), not for charter leisure airlines.

You also have to be careful compartmentalizing passengers too much (not necessarily directed at you). If you ask a VFR pax about their flight most would probably consider themselves as currently going on a vacation. They just so happen to also be visiting friends/relatives. They are not going to call themselves VFR passengers. That is airline speak intended for targeting passengers in marketing/pricing.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:33 pm

Polot wrote:
SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Polot wrote:
I'm not exactly sure how that makes it different from FUE. FUE has scheduled service with EI, OS (seasonally), BA, SN, AY, IB[/IB Express], LH (seasonally), and SAS. The only Euro legacies that are really missing from there are AZ, KL, and AF (KL/AF group operations handled by Transavia instead).

You are such a tease!
FUE has around 250 services a week listed here
http://info.flightmapper.net/airport/FUE

Polot wrote:
"FUE has scheduled services with.....EI, OS, BA, SN, AY, LH, SK"

There is precisely ONE service listed for EI
There is precisely ONE service listed for OS
There is precisely ONE service listed for BA
There is precisely ONE service listed for SN
There is precisely ONE service listed for AY
There are precisely TWO services listed for LH
There is precisely ONE service listed for SK

In most cases the single service runs just once a week, not daily.
In the remaining cases, it is at best twice weekly service.

The real picture is found by examining the 23 flights from TUI Fly (from German airports), the 18 flights from Germania, the 11 flights from Condor
- not the two flights per week from LH
In fact, I wonder why LH (& the other legacy carriers ) bother turning up at all at FUE

PUJ has scheduled service on all three US legacies to a dozen cities ...
....with for instance 16 flight codes in use by AA alone, many of them daily flights

So whilst FUE has scheduled services from a number of Euro legacies, in nearly every case it is merely a statistical aberration, not a significant presence at FUE. This makes the situation dramatically different.

Nice try Polot, but the complete absence of any photos of the Euro flag carriers at FUE on the a.net database was a bit of a giveaway. :lol:

https://www.airliners.net/search?country ... lay=detail


I'm not exactly sure your purpose of comparing two airports then. Obviously you are not going to find airports on opposite sides of the Atlantic that "match" in terms of "types" of airlines because obviously charter leisure airlines are popular in Europe but not in the US (the whole premise of this thread). You don't need to look at airports to determine that...you just have to look at list of airlines in a country. That doesn't mean Americans don't go on vacation however. You have to look at airports with similar travel demographics (hence why I suggested PUJ as a foil to FUE, as PUJ is very leisure traffic heavy just like FUE) and then look at the types of airlines serving the airport to see what passengers in the respective market opt for. And PUJ is a perfect example of what Americans do- they opt for US legacies or LCCs like B6 (big in PUJ), not for charter leisure airlines.

You also have to be careful compartmentalizing passengers too much (not necessarily directed at you). If you ask a VFR pax about their flight most would probably consider themselves as currently going on a vacation. They just so happen to also be visiting friends/relatives. They are not going to call themselves VFR passengers. That is airline speak intended for targeting passengers in marketing/pricing.


You have to look at types of airlines but also number of seats. If LH has one 319 per week to FUE and AA has 10 330s per day to PUJ, that's hardly analogous.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
henrystache
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:11 pm

alan3 wrote:
Forgive me but I couldn't find a recent similar discussion... Why doesn't the US have the same tradition of holiday leisure airlines, as in these examples from other countries.

Canada......Air Canada Rouge, Sunwing, Air Transat
UK......TUI-Thomson, Thomas Cook, and in the past Monarch, Brittania, etc.
France.....Corsair, XL Airways,.
Germany.....Condor
Switzerland......Edelweiss
Australia.......Jetstar
Netherlands.....TUI Fly
Turkey.....Corendon Airlines
Israel......Arkia, Sun D'Or
etc

Most holiday flights from the US (to Caribbean in winter, to Europe in summer) seem to be operated by the mainline carriers or low cost airlines but not specifically to seasonal leisure-market holiday airlines. There is Sun Country (SY), but it seems to be an outlier and dominated around one hub. I know in the past, American Trans Air ATA.

I know there are some charter airlines like Apple Vacations and Vacation Express, but not really airlines that can compare to the above list.

Is it because the US has a different history of leisure travel and doesn't have large-scale tour operators like TUI or Sunwing?


My take on this topic is as follows: Flag carriers dominate most markets for countries around the world, but they tend to spend time focusing on the business side of the network, basically where the government wants them to fly. What we have in US is different, since the gov. does not have a tight rope on the airlines (for this aspect), American or Delta have the option to simply add an extra flight to Cancun in the winter time from ORD or ATL. You do not see the announcement of many vacation destinations from the airlines, but if you look in behind the scenes, it turns out these US carriers operate more leisure flights then almost any other place in the world. For instance, AA flies DFW-CUN 8 times on Saturday. This goes down in the summer and on weekdays too, so the real difference form a leisure carrier would be that they still fly under the AA brand.
 
dc10lover
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:14 pm

You watch videos of airport spotting in Europe, they have tons of airlines. Seems fares are so cheap, people take a holiday or as we say getaway every weekend. Wish we had tons of airlines in the USA that fares we're dirt cheap.
Why endure the nightmare and congestion of LAX when BUR, LGB, ONT & SNA is so much easier to fly in and out of. Same with OAK & SJC when it comes to SFO.
 
gunnerman
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:25 pm

Route66 wrote:
Perhaps the better question is why don't European legacies better serve their customers? Why do Europeans need to use second and third-tier airlines for holiday service?

Here's a UK perspective for the Caribbean: BA (and its predecessor BOAC) has been flying there for decades, with VS (driven by the Virgin group's big in-house tour operator Virgin Holidays) entering the market in October 1998. But it was the charter airlines, some of which were owned by big travel groups such as Thomas Cook, Airtours, First Choice and Thomson, which provided affordable holiday and seat-only prices mostly from LGW and MAN plus other regional UK airports in the 1990s and 2000s. They could pack passengers into their aircraft as the travel trade created and sold packages. However, for various reasons including bankruptcy, mergers and strategy changes, many of these charter airlines ceased flying to the Caribbean, examples off the top of my head are XL Airways, First Choice Airways, Airtours International Airways, JMC Air and Caledonian Airways. Today, the only charter airlines which fly to the Caribbean are BY (owned by TUI) and MT (owned by Thomas Cook), with the scheduled airlines BA and VS being the dominant players especially as transatlantic flights by regional carriers JM and BW are a thing of the past.
 
alan3
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:18 pm

Fun fact I just realized: two of the remaining 744 operators are Corsair and Wamos Air, both European leisure holiday airlines. You could also throw in Rossiya, who I recently saw at BKK airport checking in a massive queue of 500+ Russian charter holidaymakers.
 
pbody
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:50 am

axiom wrote:
3. The US is a continent. You don't have to leave the country to get to a sun spot.
4. US citizens are more culturally insular relative to others in the global north; getting shuttled down to foreign language beach destination isn't required or even desirable for many.


3. The US is not a continent.
4. You proved that point above
 
Bald1983
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Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:57 am

    32andBelow wrote:
    The airlines in the USA cover all the different facets of aviation. We don't have like flag carriers and vacation carriers. If you want to go to Hawaii or TLV or Omaha Nebraska you just take Delta.


    I would almost agree but I would take United. Fact is, people have almost four choices or more any where domestically and three USA flagged carriers to most international destinations. Don't believe a "leisure" carrier is needed.
     
    Bald1983
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    Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

    Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:59 am

    Samrnpage wrote:
    Being from the UK, do the US3 and main US airlines do package holidays like the european leisure airlines? For example TUI you can book flights, hotel, food and travel all under one price ?


    I know that airlines, at UAL sells tour packages. However, with all the choices available, that may not be the best option. I was in the UK once, hope to go back sometime for a vacation, again.
     
    USAOZ
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    Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

    Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:50 am

    Bald1983 wrote:
      32andBelow wrote:
      The airlines in the USA cover all the different facets of aviation. We don't have like flag carriers and vacation carriers. If you want to go to Hawaii or TLV or Omaha Nebraska you just take Delta.


      I would almost agree but I would take United. Fact is, people have almost four choices or more any where domestically and three USA flagged carriers to most international destinations. Don't believe a "leisure" carrier is needed.

      Tahiti is a popular destinations for Americans, but it might be a bit expensive for many. You can fly Air Tahiti Nui from LAX nonstop or soon, French blue from SFO (an LCC with brand new A330/A350s)

      Why don't U.S. airlines compete ?
       
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      DL757NYC
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      Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

      Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:49 am

      Most American do not receive the weeks of vacation the Europeans are used to. Everyone thinks Americans are lazy yet we work the most out of countries in the developed world. Even the hated “union jobs” people i know get 3-4 weeks after 20 years and at most 3 will get approved.
       
      bagoldex
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      Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

      Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:11 am

      DL757NYC wrote:
      Most American do not receive the weeks of vacation the Europeans are used to. Everyone thinks Americans are lazy yet we work the most out of countries in the developed world. Even the hated “union jobs” people i know get 3-4 weeks after 20 years and at most 3 will get approved.


      If after twenty years of work they haven't figured out how to get more than a few weeks off and work than a 40 hour week, they are stupid and lazy, or at least ignorantly content.
       
      joeycapps
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      Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

      Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:59 am

      Samrnpage wrote:
      guyanam wrote:
      Samrnpage wrote:
      Being from the UK, do the US3 and main US airlines do package holidays like the european leisure airlines? For example TUI you can book flights, hotel, food and travel all under one price ?


      Americans don't necessarily want to do all of that in one package, so tour operators are less popular.


      Simple question, why not? because its very cheap. 7 night hotel, both flights and travel to the airport in Kavos is £539 each at the moment with TUI. I think the US3 are being clever here.


      I'd say to a degree, some US airlines (B6 is the first that comes to mind) offer packages at a discount... Other companies, like AAA also offer the same, but there really is no "holiday season" in the US as compared to the UK/EU. Certainly, summers are busy because children are out of school.
       
      alan3
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      Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

      Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:58 am

      USAOZ wrote:
      Bald1983 wrote:
        32andBelow wrote:
        The airlines in the USA cover all the different facets of aviation. We don't have like flag carriers and vacation carriers. If you want to go to Hawaii or TLV or Omaha Nebraska you just take Delta.


        I would almost agree but I would take United. Fact is, people have almost four choices or more any where domestically and three USA flagged carriers to most international destinations. Don't believe a "leisure" carrier is needed.

        Tahiti is a popular destinations for Americans, but it might be a bit expensive for many. You can fly Air Tahiti Nui from LAX nonstop or soon, French blue from SFO (an LCC with brand new A330/A350s)

        Why don't U.S. airlines compete ?


        I believe UA is launching Tahiti flights from SFO.

        https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/f ... 947737001/
         
        strfyr51
        Posts: 3812
        Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

        Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

        Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:12 am

        rbavfan wrote:
        Americans do not get as much vacation time as EU/UK. They also o not have as many limits on hours companies can work you. A result is when they get time off they have other things to deal with home than in EU/UK.


        Depending on the industry? Americns have up to 6 weeks vacation and up tp 8 federal holidays. so Vacations are not uncommon. We also don't need to leve the USA to go have a good time. I live in California. If I want to go screw off? I can drive up to Reno, or Lake Tahoe,. Las Vegas, Phoenix, Palm Springs.or any number of places. I live at the doorway of Napa Valley, I can go a short distance and have a good time. I don't need to fly anywhere to have a good time.
         
        strfyr51
        Posts: 3812
        Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

        Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

        Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:28 am

        I've been to Hawaii, Puerto Rico the Bahamas, Bermuda all the coasts, I've never needed to leave the country to have a good time, Going on the smooth Jazz Cruise in a few weeks on Celebrrity Cruises out of Florida. We have a good time when we go and Party!
         
        A350OZ
        Posts: 134
        Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:20 pm

        Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

        Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:07 am

        strfyr51 wrote:
        I've been to Hawaii, Puerto Rico the Bahamas, Bermuda all the coasts, I've never needed to leave the country to have a good time, Going on the smooth Jazz Cruise in a few weeks on Celebrrity Cruises out of Florida. We have a good time when we go and Party!


        Huh? The Bahamas are an independent country, not part of the USA. Bermuda is a British overseas territory. You did leave the country.
         
        axiom
        Posts: 861
        Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2015 10:39 pm

        Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

        Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:00 am

        pbody wrote:
        axiom wrote:
        3. The US is a continent. You don't have to leave the country to get to a sun spot.
        4. US citizens are more culturally insular relative to others in the global north; getting shuttled down to foreign language beach destination isn't required or even desirable for many.


        3. The US is not a continent.
        4. You proved that point above


        I was speaking euphemistically. I stand by that euphemism. 3 and 4 are related but distinct: one is about physical geography, and one is about human geography.
         
        USAOZ
        Posts: 443
        Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2017 4:34 am

        Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

        Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:20 am

        alan3 wrote:
        USAOZ wrote:
        Bald1983 wrote:

          I would almost agree but I would take United. Fact is, people have almost four choices or more any where domestically and three USA flagged carriers to most international destinations. Don't believe a "leisure" carrier is needed.

          Tahiti is a popular destinations for Americans, but it might be a bit expensive for many. You can fly Air Tahiti Nui from LAX nonstop or soon, French blue from SFO (an LCC with brand new A330/A350s)

          Why don't U.S. airlines compete ?


          I believe UA is launching Tahiti flights from SFO.

          https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/f ... 947737001/
           
          USAOZ
          Posts: 443
          Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2017 4:34 am

          Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

          Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:21 am

          alan3 wrote:
          USAOZ wrote:
          Bald1983 wrote:

            I would almost agree but I would take United. Fact is, people have almost four choices or more any where domestically and three USA flagged carriers to most international destinations. Don't believe a "leisure" carrier is needed.

            Tahiti is a popular destinations for Americans, but it might be a bit expensive for many. You can fly Air Tahiti Nui from LAX nonstop or soon, French blue from SFO (an LCC with brand new A330/A350s)

            Why don't U.S. airlines compete ?


            I believe UA is launching Tahiti flights from SFO.

            https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/f ... 947737001/

            Ua?

            Leisure airline ?

            Airline of last resort but not leisure
             
            VSMUT
            Posts: 2799
            Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

            Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

            Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:51 am

            westgate wrote:
            Also gas/petrol is way more expensive in Europe than the USA, as are all aspects of owning/running a car, so road trips are really not very popular at all. And in particular for the UK, it's on an island and it's left hand drive as opposed to right hand drive on the continent. Road tripping to Spain for example would require at 2 ferry rides and driving on the wrong side of the road for most of the trip !!!


            ???

            Driving holidays are massively popular in Europe. The motorways of Croatia, Italy, France and Spain are packed with German, Polish, Danish, Dutch and Norwegian cars every summer. You also have the skiing season.

            I am pretty sure I've seen the statistics somewhere, car travel makes up more than 50% of all holiday travel in the EU. There is a reason why German car manufacturers are well known for making excellent cars. Germans drive a lot.

            MAH4546 wrote:
            No. Americans are usually the largest inbound long distance tourist group for just about any major country or region.


            Which might have something to do with the Atlantic and Pacific oceans separating Americans from the rest of the world. It's not like they can visit Paris or Tokyo on a short-haul flight ;)
             
            westgate
            Posts: 143
            Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2016 6:17 pm

            Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

            Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:52 am

            VSMUT wrote:
            westgate wrote:
            Also gas/petrol is way more expensive in Europe than the USA, as are all aspects of owning/running a car, so road trips are really not very popular at all. And in particular for the UK, it's on an island and it's left hand drive as opposed to right hand drive on the continent. Road tripping to Spain for example would require at 2 ferry rides and driving on the wrong side of the road for most of the trip !!!


            ???

            Driving holidays are massively popular in Europe. The motorways of Croatia, Italy, France and Spain are packed with German, Polish, Danish, Dutch and Norwegian cars every summer. You also have the skiing season.

            I am pretty sure I've seen the statistics somewhere, car travel makes up more than 50% of all holiday travel in the EU. There is a reason why German car manufacturers are well known for making excellent cars. Germans drive [u]a lot[


            I based my presumption primarily on the habits of British holidaymakers, and I am quite sure that taking a road trip from the UK to Spain for example is NOT particularly popular there. Certainly it's much easier for German holidaymakers to reach places such as Italy and Croatia by car due to the shorter distance and lack of ferry rides . . . however gas/petrol and the overall cost of owning/running a car, even in Germany, is still considerably more expensive than in the USA and even though Germans most likely do road-trip around Europe a lot more than the Brits, I would assume it's nonetheless a lot less than the average American and so in the context of this thread, would certainly help to partially explain why holiday airlines are much more popular in Europe as opposed to the USA.

            For the average American on a low-income, it will likely be cheaper to drive long distance with a family of four as opposed to flying. In Europe, it would likely be the opposite, especially with all the holiday airlines and package deals, where the cost of driving all the way from Germany to say Spain and back may actually be more expensive for a family of four then flying.
             
            User avatar
            SheikhDjibouti
            Posts: 1715
            Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:59 pm

            Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

            Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:08 pm

            westgate wrote:
            For the average American on a low-income, it will likely be cheaper to drive long distance with a family of four as opposed to flying. In Europe, it would likely be the opposite, especially with all the holiday airlines and package deals, where the cost of driving all the way from Germany to say Spain and back may actually be more expensive for a family of four then flying.

            You are being generous by considering a family of four.
            Take a look at typical holiday flights in Europe and note how many pax are singles and couples. In fact, with the exception of standard school holiday times (~12 weeks pa?), the majority of traffic is older persons, not restricted to traditional holiday periods, and with time on their hands and money to burn. You are much more likely to find the hold is full of motability scooters as opposed to baby-buggies. These people do not want to drive 2,000 miles across Europe, even before the economics of a half-full vehicle are considered.
            The car becomes a more attractive alternative if...
            1) you are heading off for three or more weeks
            2) you are carrying a vast amount of luggage (for a longer holiday)
            3) you are carrying unusual luggage, such as a step-ladder, and 20 litres of paint, because you are going to redecorate your second home down in the Algarve.
            4) you can enjoy the journey in itself, taking time to stop off en route as part of the vacation.

            Alternatively you can take the bus!
            Travel by coach from Madrid to Frankfurt !
            Ouibus can take you from Frankfurt to Madrid at an affordable price. We’ll travel the 1990 kilometres between Madrid and Frankfurt in 26h45mins. :rotfl:

            https://www.ouibus.com/routes/madrid-fr ... &gclsrc=ds

            Finally; it's not just travellers from the UK who have to consider ferry crossings.
            Many many Germans flock to the Balearic Islands, the Canary Islands, countless Greek islands, and Madeira (which is an island).
            Nothing to see here; move along please.
             
            VSMUT
            Posts: 2799
            Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

            Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

            Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:00 pm

            westgate wrote:
            I based my presumption primarily on the habits of British holidaymakers, and I am quite sure that taking a road trip from the UK to Spain for example is NOT particularly popular there. Certainly it's much easier for German holidaymakers to reach places such as Italy and Croatia by car due to the shorter distance and lack of ferry rides . . . however gas/petrol and the overall cost of owning/running a car, even in Germany, is still considerably more expensive than in the USA and even though Germans most likely do road-trip around Europe a lot more than the Brits, I would assume it's nonetheless a lot less than the average American and so in the context of this thread, would certainly help to partially explain why holiday airlines are much more popular in Europe as opposed to the USA.

            For the average American on a low-income, it will likely be cheaper to drive long distance with a family of four as opposed to flying. In Europe, it would likely be the opposite, especially with all the holiday airlines and package deals, where the cost of driving all the way from Germany to say Spain and back may actually be more expensive for a family of four then flying.


            Completely disagree. I have friends in both ends of the spectrum (rich and poor) in many countries, and it is by far more popular among the cash-strapped to drive. Even though all they have are old bangers from the 90s, they find it much cheaper to drive all the way from Denmark or Germany to Spain/Portugal.
             
            Bald1983
            Posts: 622
            Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:04 pm

            Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

            Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:43 pm

            USAOZ wrote:
            alan3 wrote:
            USAOZ wrote:
            Tahiti is a popular destinations for Americans, but it might be a bit expensive for many. You can fly Air Tahiti Nui from LAX nonstop or soon, French blue from SFO (an LCC with brand new A330/A350s)

            Why don't U.S. airlines compete ?


            I believe UA is launching Tahiti flights from SFO.

            https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/f ... 947737001/

            Ua?

            Leisure airline ?

            Airline of last resort but not leisure


            UAL and lived to tell about it. It was not the last resort.
             
            smokeybandit
            Posts: 1045
            Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:24 pm

            Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

            Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:17 pm

            People forget that the USA has such diverse geography, even in the lower 48. You've got tropical beaches and high mountain ski resorts. You have lush forests, large lakes and wide rivers, as well as cultural urban centers. For many Americans (most?) there's just no reason to leave the country.
             
            User avatar
            Aesma
            Posts: 11626
            Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

            Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

            Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:03 pm

            Someone asked why EU legacies don't serve leisure markets like US legacies do, I'd like to get a price comparison. Can you get a complete vacation (flight, ride to the hotel, all inclusive resort) cheaper on US legacies that you can on EU leisure airlines ? I'm not convinced you can.

            DL757NYC wrote:
            Most American do not receive the weeks of vacation the Europeans are used to. Everyone thinks Americans are lazy yet we work the most out of countries in the developed world. Even the hated “union jobs” people i know get 3-4 weeks after 20 years and at most 3 will get approved.


            My boss just forced me to take my fourth and fifth weeks of vacation for the year ah ah. Nothing to do with my seniority, they're legally mandated for everyone.

            I don't think Americans in general are lazy, nor do I think that for any people. However, productivity (amount of work done by hours worked) in the US is not great, so spending less time at work like we do would probably give good or better results. In fact some US companies are pioneering unlimited vacations.
            New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
             
            User avatar
            BaconButty
            Posts: 797
            Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:42 pm

            Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

            Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:36 pm

            smokeybandit wrote:
            People forget that the USA has such diverse geography, even in the lower 48. You've got tropical beaches and high mountain ski resorts. You have lush forests, large lakes and wide rivers, as well as cultural urban centers. For many Americans (most?) there's just no reason to leave the country.

            How depressing, and on a forum that's dedicated to technology that made the world smaller. Places aren't just a sum of their flora, fauna and architecture - and even then, there's more variety than that which exists in the US. The people, the attitudes, the food, the history, it's so cool to be challenged. To have your assumptions about people ripped up, and to realise that other peoples in the world have found different ways to function as a society.
            Down with that sort of thing!
             
            User avatar
            SheikhDjibouti
            Posts: 1715
            Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:59 pm

            Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

            Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:07 pm

            BaconButty wrote:
            smokeybandit wrote:
            People forget that the USA has such diverse geography, even in the lower 48. You've got tropical beaches and high mountain ski resorts. You have lush forests, large lakes and wide rivers, as well as cultural urban centers. For many Americans (most?) there's just no reason to leave the country.

            How depressing, and on a forum that's dedicated to technology that made the world smaller. Places aren't just a sum of their flora, fauna and architecture - and even then, there's more variety than that which exists in the US. The people, the attitudes, the food, the history, it's so cool to be challenged. To have your assumptions about people ripped up, and to realise that other peoples in the world have found different ways to function as a society.

            On the other hand, some people just want a short break from work.

            Or have young children who aren't the slightest bit interested in being challenged by different cultures & lifestyles.

            In fact the true test of somebody who is well travelled, is that they recognise that others on this planet have slightly lower expectations.

            :spin:
            Nothing to see here; move along please.
             
            User avatar
            BaconButty
            Posts: 797
            Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:42 pm

            Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

            Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:33 pm

            SheikhDjibouti wrote:
            In fact the true test of somebody who is well travelled, is that they recognise that others on this planet have slightly lower expectations.

            :spin:

            If you say so, Mr Passive Aggressive. But it wasn't my point. I've spent many a brain dead week vegging out and pickling my liver. But to look at your own corner of the world, and wonder why you'd ever want to see anything else, well, for me it's all a little Mr Smoketoomuch.
            Down with that sort of thing!
             
            User avatar
            NearMiss
            Posts: 169
            Joined: Sun May 22, 2016 5:10 pm

            Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

            Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:16 am

            I work at a hotel here in Santiago and most Americans book flights and rooms via Expedia. Funnily, most come via United, even though it only has one daily flight compared to American's two daily flights and LATAM's three daily flights.
            "There is an art, it says, or rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
             
            User avatar
            DL757NYC
            Posts: 278
            Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 6:07 am

            Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

            Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:58 am

            bagoldex wrote:
            DL757NYC wrote:
            Most American do not receive the weeks of vacation the Europeans are used to. Everyone thinks Americans are lazy yet we work the most out of countries in the developed world. Even the hated “union jobs” people i know get 3-4 weeks after 20 years and at most 3 will get approved.


            If after twenty years of work they haven't figured out how to get more than a few weeks off and work than a 40 hour week, they are stupid and lazy, or at least ignorantly content.



            Well then I guess your calling my father lazy,stupid or ignorently content. He worked when it was cold, when he was sick to give me and my sister opportunities he didn’t have. Now that he is older and retired he goes on vacations every month. And I’m grateful I am able to provide him with the benefit to be able to fly on demand. I can guarantee you one thing. I don’t care how big of a man you are. If you called my father lazy or ignorant in front of my face well we won’t go there ok panty boy.
             
            bagoldex
            Posts: 1027
            Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2007 3:33 pm

            Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

            Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:03 am

            DL757NYC wrote:
            bagoldex wrote:
            DL757NYC wrote:
            Most American do not receive the weeks of vacation the Europeans are used to. Everyone thinks Americans are lazy yet we work the most out of countries in the developed world. Even the hated “union jobs” people i know get 3-4 weeks after 20 years and at most 3 will get approved.


            If after twenty years of work they haven't figured out how to get more than a few weeks off and work than a 40 hour week, they are stupid and lazy, or at least ignorantly content.



            Well then I guess your calling my father lazy,stupid or ignorently content. He worked when it was cold, when he was sick to give me and my sister opportunities he didn’t have. Now that he is older and retired he goes on vacations every month. And I’m grateful I am able to provide him with the benefit to be able to fly on demand. I can guarantee you one thing. I don’t care how big of a man you are. If you called my father lazy or ignorant in front of my face well we won’t go there ok panty boy.


            Boohoo. That's more of a comment on today though and the capabilities of technology. By the way, panty boy? That might just be my new Grindr/Scruff/Hornet handle, lolololololol.
             
            alan3
            Topic Author
            Posts: 313
            Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2014 6:13 am

            Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

            Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:31 am

            smokeybandit wrote:
            People forget that the USA has such diverse geography, even in the lower 48. You've got tropical beaches and high mountain ski resorts. You have lush forests, large lakes and wide rivers, as well as cultural urban centers. For many Americans (most?) there's just no reason to leave the country.


            I guess that’s the key element right there.

            No reason to leave your own country vs wanting to leave your own country.

            I guess we’ll never know how many Europeans and Canadians travel abroad because they have to (to get to a decent climate) vs how many do it because they want to (to experience another culture, language, etc).
             
            guyanam
            Posts: 3076
            Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:21 pm

            Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

            Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:35 am

            alan3 wrote:
            We’ll never know how many Europeans and Canadians travel abroad because they have to (to get to a decent climate) vs how many do it because they want to (to experience another culture, language, etc).


            The mere fact that many Brits go to Spain and are surrounded by aspects of UK culture in resorts where many head to, or that many Euros and Canadians head to all inclusive properties and only leave when they are ready to go to the airport suggests that cultural stimulation isn't always the priority.

            If they are all so interested in experiencing culture why do they buy packages that force them to stay in hotels eating generic hotel food? I doubt that Europeans or Canadians will admit to being poor so what is the excuse? Just that they want sun, sea and sand and nothing more? Well an American can get all of that if that's all that they wish without leaving the USA.

            Its amazing how obsessed so many seem to be about what Americans are up to!
             
            User avatar
            SQ789
            Posts: 619
            Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:51 am

            Re: Why doesn't US have more holiday leisure airlines?

            Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:26 am

            alan3 wrote:
            Forgive me but I couldn't find a recent similar discussion... Why doesn't the US have the same tradition of holiday leisure airlines, as in these examples from other countries.

            Canada......Air Canada Rouge, Sunwing, Air Transat
            UK......TUI-Thomson, Thomas Cook, and in the past Monarch, Brittania, etc.
            France.....Corsair, XL Airways,.
            Germany.....Condor
            Switzerland......Edelweiss
            Australia.......Jetstar
            Netherlands.....TUI Fly
            Turkey.....Corendon Airlines
            Israel......Arkia, Sun D'Or
            etc

            Most holiday flights from the US (to Caribbean in winter, to Europe in summer) seem to be operated by the mainline carriers or low cost airlines but not specifically to seasonal leisure-market holiday airlines. There is Sun Country (SY), but it seems to be an outlier and dominated around one hub. I know in the past, American Trans Air ATA.

            I know there are some charter airlines like Apple Vacations and Vacation Express, but not really airlines that can compare to the above list.

            Is it because the US has a different history of leisure travel and doesn't have large-scale tour operators like TUI or Sunwing?

            Plus Jet2 of UK, Germania of Germany and SunExpress (Turkey and Germany) is also a leisure airline. I don't think Jetstar of Australia is a leisure airline. Transavia of the Netherlands is also a Leisure airlines as well.
            If it's not Boeing, I'm not going!

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