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PW100
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Re: Embraer E2 Flight Testing And Production Thread - 2018

Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:24 pm

PPVRA wrote:
Embraer isn’t trying to intimidate anyone. These liveries are about stoking the ego of airline managers who play in very competitive markets.


The type of managers that drive these cars . . . . :
Image

Wondering what is more telling, the livery or the car . . . .
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BA
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Re: Embraer E2 Flight Testing And Production Thread - 2018

Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:57 am

raffik wrote:
The Lebanese Spotters group who were onboard the test flight from Beirut to Antalya has stated that MEA has no intention of placing an order with Embraer for those aircraft. Is it usual for Embraer to send over an aircraft and print up promotional material with MEA's livery on advertising if MEA hasn't shown any interest?
I could see this aircraft operating extra frequencies on its short haul network- Cyprus, Jordan, Turkey, Egypt and Greece.
It could also add thinner routes to new markets- Eastern Europe, other destinations in the Middle East or even seasonal charters to the Greek Islands etc.


mxaxai wrote:
raffik wrote:
The Lebanese Spotters group who were onboard the test flight from Beirut to Antalya has stated that MEA has no intention of placing an order with Embraer for those aircraft. Is it usual for Embraer to send over an aircraft and print up promotional material with MEA's livery on advertising if MEA hasn't shown any interest?

Embraer just sent the "shark" E2-190 to 15 countries in Europe and 10 cities in Asia. Places visited include those with E1 operators like:
Amsterdam (KLM)
Warsaw (LOT)
Manchester (BA Cityflyer)
Rome (Alitalia)
Zurich (Helvetic)
Altenrhein (People's ViennaLine)
Helsinki (Finnair)
Lisbon (TAP)
Itami (JAL)
Taipei (Mandarin Airlines)
Haikou Meilan (China Southern)

but also some without like
Lhasa
Kathmandu
Stockholm
Brussels
Seattle (Boeing Field)
Chengdu

Even those that do operate the E-Jets probably didn't request the visit. But better to preemptively make an offer than to miss an opportunity, I guess. Airbus learned that the hard way when IIRC United called them and asked for an offer for some A300s (that they obviously didn't have ready).


It is a bit strange, but in MEA's case, they technically are an existing Embraer customer. They bought two Legacy 500 business jets for their Cedar Executive subsidiary, which is probably why Embraer wanted to showcase them the E2.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
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keesje
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Re: Embraer E2 Flight Testing And Production Thread - 2018

Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:00 pm

PPVRA wrote:
keesje wrote:
PPVRA wrote:

Embraer isn’t trying to intimidate anyone. These liveries are about stoking the ego of airline managers who play in very competitive markets.


I think many would feel this says more about the ones that decided on this special livery, than on the imagined target group.


If you want to talk about bloodthirst, let’s talk about how Airbus dismembered Bombardier Commercial Aviation.


As far as I know the A220 will be produced using the existing supply chain+ the final assembly in Mobile. The latter because it has become a kind of pre condition to sell in that market. Furthermore I don't see any movement / ambition to pull R&D / development out of the current organisation. A future A220-500 supplementing / replacing the A319 will almost certainly be developed using the existing people / organisation. Would that have happened under the Bombardier flag too? Would they have landed the DL deal while Boeing was trying to strangle them? Some realism would be welcome..

https://www.economist.com/gulliver/2017/12/20/americas-department-of-commerce-imposes-a-tariff-of-292-on-bombardiers-c-series-jets
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
LegoAir
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Re: Embraer E2 Flight Testing And Production Thread - 2018

Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:51 pm

Today, Astana took delivery of the first 190E2 (P4-KHA). According to skyliner-aviation.de, the delivery route is SJK-REC-FAO-TSE and the aircraft has an "Artic Tiger" nose art. Let's wait for the photos.
 
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zkojq
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Re: Embraer E2 Flight Testing And Production Thread - 2018

Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:03 pm

keesje wrote:
I've not seen anyone commenting on social media so far, so I'll have to bring the bad news. IMO, looking at this shark livery, I think of a centralized, military style company, lacking or ignoring commercial marketing professionalism.

If you promote your reliability, integrity, want to make your people happy and committed to what they do, you strive for enduring relationships and partnerships, a bloodthirsty fighter style shark face can not be the outcome. :checkeredflag:

You might like the art, but that doesn't mean you do market promotion / company branding with it. This is about bonding, not intimidation. :shakehead:

:arrow: Without knowing, I'm almost sure one or a few probably defense background exec's, pushed this through. And, IMO, it hits all the wrong buttons. Embraer has done a great job over the last 20 yrs, this in my opinion doesn't pay tribute to that. I hope they keep learning & improving.


If it was me doing the livery, I'd make it a donkey, to try and make the point that the plane's a workhorse. ;)
Most recently flown: A318 F-GUGQ A319 F-GRHR A320ceo D-AIZH A320neo D-AINE A330-300 VH-QPD A350-900 B-LRA A380-800 D-AIMH 717 VH-YQW 737-600 LN-RPA 737-700 OY-JTY 737-800 LN-NGA 767-300 ZK-NCI 777-200 ZK-OKA 777-300 ZK-OKN 787-9 ZK-NZK CS100 HB-JBG
 
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EMBSPBR
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Re: Embraer E2 Flight Testing And Production Thread - 2018

Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:21 pm

zkojq wrote:
keesje wrote:
I've not seen anyone commenting on social media so far, so I'll have to bring the bad news. IMO, looking at this shark livery, I think of a centralized, military style company, lacking or ignoring commercial marketing professionalism.

If you promote your reliability, integrity, want to make your people happy and committed to what they do, you strive for enduring relationships and partnerships, a bloodthirsty fighter style shark face can not be the outcome. :checkeredflag:

You might like the art, but that doesn't mean you do market promotion / company branding with it. This is about bonding, not intimidation. :shakehead:

:arrow: Without knowing, I'm almost sure one or a few probably defense background exec's, pushed this through. And, IMO, it hits all the wrong buttons. Embraer has done a great job over the last 20 yrs, this in my opinion doesn't pay tribute to that. I hope they keep learning & improving.


If it was me doing the livery, I'd make it a donkey, to try and make the point that the plane's a workhorse. ;)



Donkey, really ???
 
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keesje
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Re: Embraer E2 Flight Testing And Production Thread - 2018

Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:31 pm

Airbus did a shark also years ago, when it introduced sharklets. But it was a cheecky smiling shark mouth and not angry, threatening. I miss that marketing nuance on this E2.

Image
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Embraer E2 Flight Testing And Production Thread - 2018

Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:36 pm

keesje wrote:
Airbus did a shark also years ago, when it introduced sharklets. But it was a cheecky smiling shark mouth and not angry, threatening. I miss that marketing nuance on this E2.

Image


That's somewhat underwhelming - to the point of perhaps being missed - but I'd take it over the Profit Hunter scheme.
-Dave


”Yet somewhere in Iceland a great anger stirred in the soul of a troubled individual...” - Revelation
 
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EMBSPBR
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Re: Embraer E2 Flight Testing And Production Thread - 2018

Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:42 pm

LegoAir wrote:
Today, Astana took delivery of the first 190E2 (P4-KHA). According to skyliner-aviation.de, the delivery route is SJK-REC-FAO-TSE and the aircraft has an "Artic Tiger" nose art. Let's wait for the photos.


Soon ... very close ...
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Embraer E2 Flight Testing And Production Thread - 2018

Sun Dec 02, 2018 5:58 pm

First, congrats on a new delivery. :hyper:

How is the E2-190 dispatch reliability now that they have seen months of duty? I'd love to see a comparison with the A220. :)
From this old thread:
viewtopic.php?t=1399391
E-190s go out the door pricier than E-175s, but the E-175s are holding resale value better:
EMB175 – $10.8 – 28.3M, $115-235,000
EMB190 – $11.9 – 35.0M, $155-280,000

E1-190 cost about 24% more than E1-175 new, but resell (despite being newer) for only 10% more. I speculate this is due to the CF-34-10 being a problem engine while the CF-34-8 is pretty much bulletproof.

So how is the PW1900G performing in service? Has the avionics and subsystem changes produced the results Embraer was looking for? We're far enough into service to know.

This link provides an interesting story. Smaller planes have worse dispatch reliability.
http://www.worldtek.com/wp-content/uplo ... 3-1345.pdf

Notice how expensive for a 737/A320 an uncontrolled missed dispatch costs (over $15,000). For a LCC, $19,000! So for this size, I would estimate about a $12,000 cost for a missed dispatch (other than weather). So 99% dispatch reliability adds $24,000 to $30,000 per month in costs. Improve that to 99.5% and it is $12,000 to $15,000 for an E2-190. How is the plane doing?

Note: Above 1% missed dispatch creates so many issues that the costs escalate much faster than the linear trend.

Lightsaber
You only have the first amendment with the 2nd. If you're not going to offend someone with what you say, you don't have the 1st.
 
LegoAir
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Re: Embraer E2 Flight Testing And Production Thread - 2018

Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:23 am

P4-KHA has arrived in Astana: https://twitter.com/airastana
 
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EMBSPBR
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Re: Embraer E2 Flight Testing And Production Thread - 2018

Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:39 pm

After a long tour around the world in effort for new customers, the prototype E-190-E2 "Shark" PR-ZGQ landed in SJK in December 1st. A ceremony will be held for all involved in this project.

Maybe with the negotiations for a JV between Boeing and Embraer involving the commercial division, all sales are "on hold" by now.

Another milestone is the delivery of the 1500th E-Jet produced: an E175 sn 17000763 operated by Horizon Air on behalf of Alaska Airlines.
A picture from this plane can be find here:
https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/9150094

And a nice picture from the first E-190-E2 for Air Astana.
Hope you fellows enjoy it !!!

Courtesy by http://www.embraer.com

Image
 
BEG2IAH
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Re: Embraer E2 Flight Testing And Production Thread - 2018

Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:53 pm

EMBSPBR wrote:
And a nice picture from the first E-190-E2 for Air Astana. Hope you fellows enjoy it !!!


Thanks for sharing. Beautiful!
Flying at cruise altitude is (mostly) boring. I wish all flights were nothing but endless take offs and landings every 10 minutes or so.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Embraer E2 Flight Testing And Production Thread - 2018

Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:06 pm

EMBSPBR wrote:

Maybe with the negotiations for a JV between Boeing and Embraer involving the commercial division, all sales are "on hold" by now.

Sales are never on hold. What if negotiations fall through? Options must still be honored as well as parts and service contracts.

If anything, Embraer should be closing deals as fast as possible.

There were discussions when Boeing bought Douglas that Douglass was halting sales but the reality was they simply were not in a condition to find customers. Douglas fans like to blame Boeing for the lack of top off sales but the reality is Douglas aircraft at the end we're not competitive. You're line sounds too much like the Douglas fans.

I'm personally a fan of the E2-195 and believe it will sell and sell well. The ULCC carriers have made the 190 market smaller. In my opinion scope clauses of doomed the 175.

for the a 220 at Udvar-Hazyar noted that they needed another American customer and JetBlue and Moxie provided that. Embraer needs either a large US sale or a large European sale to convince the leasing companies it is an established market. Who?

Lightsaber
You only have the first amendment with the 2nd. If you're not going to offend someone with what you say, you don't have the 1st.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Embraer E2 Flight Testing And Production Thread - 2018

Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:26 pm

Hello NK. Paging NK.
-Dave


”Yet somewhere in Iceland a great anger stirred in the soul of a troubled individual...” - Revelation
 
LegoAir
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Re: Embraer E2 Flight Testing And Production Thread - 2018

Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:59 pm

lightsaber wrote:
EMBSPBR wrote:

Maybe with the negotiations for a JV between Boeing and Embraer involving the commercial division, all sales are "on hold" by now.

Sales are never on hold. What if negotiations fall through? Options must still be honored as well as parts and service contracts.

If anything, Embraer should be closing deals as fast as possible.

There were discussions when Boeing bought Douglas that Douglass was halting sales but the reality was they simply were not in a condition to find customers. Douglas fans like to blame Boeing for the lack of top off sales but the reality is Douglas aircraft at the end we're not competitive. You're line sounds too much like the Douglas fans.

I'm personally a fan of the E2-195 and believe it will sell and sell well. The ULCC carriers have made the 190 market smaller. In my opinion scope clauses of doomed the 175.

for the a 220 at Udvar-Hazyar noted that they needed another American customer and JetBlue and Moxie provided that. Embraer needs either a large US sale or a large European sale to convince the leasing companies it is an established market. Who?

Lightsaber


Totally agree, it is hard to believe that Embraer is holding the sales.

Lots of excuse have been given by Embraer to justify the lack of sales of the E2:
- First flight
- Aircraft Certification
- EIS
- the takeover of its comercial division by Boeing (I am sorry, it is not a JV but a takeover).

Embraer sales team should work more and talk less!

Back to the topic. Next E2 deliveries:
- Fuzhou (China) - maybe this month or 1S19
- Astana - 4 more 190E2 during 2019
- Azul (Brasil) - 1S19
- Binter and Helvetic - 2S19
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Embraer E2 Flight Testing And Production Thread - 2018

Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:49 pm

LegoAir wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
EMBSPBR wrote:

Maybe with the negotiations for a JV between Boeing and Embraer involving the commercial division, all sales are "on hold" by now.

Sales are never on hold. What if negotiations fall through? Options must still be honored as well as parts and service contracts.

If anything, Embraer should be closing deals as fast as possible.

There were discussions when Boeing bought Douglas that Douglass was halting sales but the reality was they simply were not in a condition to find customers. Douglas fans like to blame Boeing for the lack of top off sales but the reality is Douglas aircraft at the end we're not competitive. You're line sounds too much like the Douglas fans.

I'm personally a fan of the E2-195 and believe it will sell and sell well. The ULCC carriers have made the 190 market smaller. In my opinion scope clauses of doomed the 175.

for the a 220 at Udvar-Hazyar noted that they needed another American customer and JetBlue and Moxie provided that. Embraer needs either a large US sale or a large European sale to convince the leasing companies it is an established market. Who?

Lightsaber


Totally agree, it is hard to believe that Embraer is holding the sales.

Lots of excuse have been given by Embraer to justify the lack of sales of the E2:
- First flight
- Aircraft Certification
- EIS
- the takeover of its comercial division by Boeing (I am sorry, it is not a JV but a takeover).

Embraer sales team should work more and talk less!

Back to the topic. Next E2 deliveries:
- Fuzhou (China) - maybe this month or 1S19
- Astana - 4 more 190E2 during 2019
- Azul (Brasil) - 1S19
- Binter and Helvetic - 2S19

Azul is a lifesaver for the program IMHO.

Looking at this link, Embraer is going to need more customers to help leasing customers.


https://www.bing.com/amp/s/www.irishtim ... mode%3damp

What is the production plan in 2019/2020? Manufacturing depends on volume.

I'm also trying to figure out how many extra sales Boeing will enable. I'm going to an opinion that ULCC, with reduced frequency, have shrunk the E2-190 market. So that leaves Embraer very dependent on the 195.

As a Pratt fan, I am sad sales are so low. :cry:

Boeing is a two edge sword. Lower component prices (e.g., rivits), a far better part distribution system, and a good sales team; but far higher overhead costs. Salespeople care about their next bonus (and good scotch). Is Embraer good enough to earn them a larger bonus?

Lightsaber
You only have the first amendment with the 2nd. If you're not going to offend someone with what you say, you don't have the 1st.
 
many321
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Re: Embraer E2 Flight Testing And Production Thread - 2018

Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:47 pm

lightsaber wrote:
LegoAir wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Sales are never on hold. What if negotiations fall through? Options must still be honored as well as parts and service contracts.

If anything, Embraer should be closing deals as fast as possible.

There were discussions when Boeing bought Douglas that Douglass was halting sales but the reality was they simply were not in a condition to find customers. Douglas fans like to blame Boeing for the lack of top off sales but the reality is Douglas aircraft at the end we're not competitive. You're line sounds too much like the Douglas fans.

I'm personally a fan of the E2-195 and believe it will sell and sell well. The ULCC carriers have made the 190 market smaller. In my opinion scope clauses of doomed the 175.

for the a 220 at Udvar-Hazyar noted that they needed another American customer and JetBlue and Moxie provided that. Embraer needs either a large US sale or a large European sale to convince the leasing companies it is an established market. Who?

Lightsaber


Totally agree, it is hard to believe that Embraer is holding the sales.

Lots of excuse have been given by Embraer to justify the lack of sales of the E2:
- First flight
- Aircraft Certification
- EIS
- the takeover of its comercial division by Boeing (I am sorry, it is not a JV but a takeover).

Embraer sales team should work more and talk less!

Back to the topic. Next E2 deliveries:
- Fuzhou (China) - maybe this month or 1S19
- Astana - 4 more 190E2 during 2019
- Azul (Brasil) - 1S19
- Binter and Helvetic - 2S19

Azul is a lifesaver for the program IMHO.

Looking at this link, Embraer is going to need more customers to help leasing customers.


https://www.bing.com/amp/s/www.irishtim ... mode%3damp

What is the production plan in 2019/2020? Manufacturing depends on volume.

I'm also trying to figure out how many extra sales Boeing will enable. I'm going to an opinion that ULCC, with reduced frequency, have shrunk the E2-190 market. So that leaves Embraer very dependent on the 195.

As a Pratt fan, I am sad sales are so low. :cry:

Boeing is a two edge sword. Lower component prices (e.g., rivits), a far better part distribution system, and a good sales team; but far higher overhead costs. Salespeople care about their next bonus (and good scotch). Is Embraer good enough to earn them a larger bonus?

Lightsaber


Perhaps AM since they're mostly Embraer and Boeing company. I could see them get some E2s to open up long thin routes that the 737 is too much for i.e. ONT-MEX.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Embraer E2 Flight Testing And Production Thread - 2018

Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:11 pm

many321 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
LegoAir wrote:

Totally agree, it is hard to believe that Embraer is holding the sales.

Lots of excuse have been given by Embraer to justify the lack of sales of the E2:
- First flight
- Aircraft Certification
- EIS
- the takeover of its comercial division by Boeing (I am sorry, it is not a JV but a takeover).

Embraer sales team should work more and talk less!

Back to the topic. Next E2 deliveries:
- Fuzhou (China) - maybe this month or 1S19
- Astana - 4 more 190E2 during 2019
- Azul (Brasil) - 1S19
- Binter and Helvetic - 2S19

Azul is a lifesaver for the program IMHO.

Looking at this link, Embraer is going to need more customers to help leasing customers.


https://www.bing.com/amp/s/www.irishtim ... mode%3damp

What is the production plan in 2019/2020? Manufacturing depends on volume.

I'm also trying to figure out how many extra sales Boeing will enable. I'm going to an opinion that ULCC, with reduced frequency, have shrunk the E2-190 market. So that leaves Embraer very dependent on the 195.

As a Pratt fan, I am sad sales are so low. :cry:

Boeing is a two edge sword. Lower component prices (e.g., rivits), a far better part distribution system, and a good sales team; but far higher overhead costs. Salespeople care about their next bonus (and good scotch). Is Embraer good enough to earn them a larger bonus?

Lightsaber


Perhaps AM since they're mostly Embraer and Boeing company. I could see them get some E2s to open up long thin routes that the 737 is too much for.


EMB needs a solid 30-60 frame order for the E2 to rejuvenate the momentum. Not sure if AM can fill that role.
-Dave


”Yet somewhere in Iceland a great anger stirred in the soul of a troubled individual...” - Revelation
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Embraer E2 Flight Testing And Production Thread - 2018

Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:42 pm

Please discuss the Brazilian judge blocking the Embraer/Boeing joint venture in the dedicated thread (this is flight test and production):

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1410085&p=20912443#p20912443
You only have the first amendment with the 2nd. If you're not going to offend someone with what you say, you don't have the 1st.
 
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EMBSPBR
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Re: Embraer E2 Flight Testing And Production Thread - 2018

Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:46 am

EMBSPBR wrote:

Maybe with the negotiations for a JV between Boeing and Embraer involving the commercial division, all sales are "on hold" by now.



lightsaber wrote:
Sales are never on hold. What if negotiations fall through? Options must still be honored as well as parts and service contracts.
Lightsaber


Maybe they are waiting for the end of the negotiations between Boeing-Embraer with the intention of extracting better conditions with weight of that JV can offer ???
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