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kelval
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France govt abandons the Notre Dame des Landes Airport project

Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:14 pm

This is a project that was running for almost 50 years to create a new airport close to Nantes in France.
It's just been abandoned in favour of renovation and modifications of the current Nantes Atlantique airport, and development of Rennes current airport.
Link (in French so far): http://www.lemonde.fr/planete/article/2 ... _3244.html

EDIT: wording
 
kelval
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Re: France govt abandons the Notre Dame des Landes Airport project

Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:42 pm

To add to the initial post, this project had led to a real fracture between supporters and detractors of the project.
IMO, the project was facing several burdens. Here are some reasons on top of my head, with no particular order:
- the current Nantes Airport has a lot of room for optimisation, and the immediate need for a 2 runways airport was questionable.
- the noise reductions, while real, were also moderate due to the aircraft still flying over the town (from the top of my head: I can't find a quote for this anymore so I'll try to find out later today)
- Nantes Atlantique vould have had to stay because of the Airbus plant there.
- NDDL's project was double the price of Nantes-Atlantique's renovation.
- It was putting a real toll on natural and agricultural spaces. Furthermore, it would have automatically expanded the industrial and urban area further around the airport (think of industrials, transit and parcel depots, and workers that want to live close to the workplace).
- It had become a real dispute catalyst with ecologists. The whole site had become a protest and occupation area, with a lot of people occupying land for farming and advocating degrowth.

Some probably know more than I do, but I think that's a good part of it.
 
DALCE
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Re: France govt abandons the Notre Dame des Landes Airport project

Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:59 pm

wise choice, not every square inch of land needs an airport. And in the direct area there is more than enough choice for air transportation.
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ro1960
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Re: France govt abandons the Notre Dame des Landes Airport project

Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:12 pm

Locals voted in favor of building it through a referendum. There are 180 court rulings backing the referedum. Both Macron and Philippe said these decisions should be respected. Now that they are in office they don't stick to their word.
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lysflyer
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Re: France govt abandons the Notre Dame des Landes Airport project

Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:51 pm

No matter what they have said due to their political issues, I think it's a wise choice as NDDL was so badly located (litteraly in the middle of nowhere) that building an airport there, was a complete non sense in the real life (yeah, on the paper it was ideally located in between Nantes, Rennes, Angers,...)
 
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ro1960
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Re: France govt abandons the Notre Dame des Landes Airport project

Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:21 pm

lysflyer wrote:
No matter what they have said due to their political issues, I think it's a wise choice as NDDL was so badly located (litteraly in the middle of nowhere) that building an airport there, was a complete non sense in the real life (yeah, on the paper it was ideally located iin between Nantes, Rennes, Angers,...)



You're saying one thing and its contrary in the same sentence.

On top of finding a solution to NTE lack of capacity, it was meant to be located "in the middle of nowhere" to relieve Nantes inhabitants from noise and "in between Nantes, Rennes, Angers" to make it a truly regional airport. So this doesn't seem like a "complete non sense" after all.

If you were affected by the aircraft noise like people living there or facing 3-hour queues to clear security or customs at peak times of the year you would probably think differently.

Anybody is entitled to contest decision but in this case, people illegally occupying land they don't own and blocking public roads is not acceptable. A government giving in to a handful of protesters vs a quarter a million voters who democratically said yes to the new airport, THAT is a non-sense.

Expending the current airport means lengthening the runway by 500 meters. It will directly affect people in the nearby villages. If they occupy the land and block public roads, will the government back down too?
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lysflyer
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Re: France govt abandons the Notre Dame des Landes Airport project

Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:35 pm

@ro1960, nowadays people want convenient access to cities and this is just what NTE or RNS do! NDDL is located in a crappy location without any fast access to any of the cities NDDL was supposed to serve. France has countless transportation projects built in the middle of nowhere just to please local politician ego or because politicians settled in Paris are listening to NIMBYs. Do I have to tell you the names of TGV stations, airports that are located in silly locations quite far away from the town they are meant to serve?
I agree that the ZADistes must leave the ground NOW! Force must remain to law enforcement side...you can be against NDDL and against the ZADistes too!

NDDL is under discussions for ages so I won't convince you in few words in my poor english but I sincerely think it's the best solution and "westerners" must accept it. Best having a reliable, well located airport in both NTE and RNS than having a major hub-like airport that is a complete waste of money...
 
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ro1960
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Re: France govt abandons the Notre Dame des Landes Airport project

Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:52 pm

lysflyer wrote:
Do I have to tell you the names of TGV stations, airports that are located in silly locations


Please do, I'm curious. And provide figures that support that they are a waste of money (lack or decline of traffic).
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vinniewinnie
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Re: France govt abandons the Notre Dame des Landes Airport project

Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:54 pm

ro1960 wrote:
lysflyer wrote:
Do I have to tell you the names of TGV stations, airports that are located in silly locations


Please do, I'm curious. And provide figures that support that they are a waste of money (lack or decline of traffic).


They are called gares betteraves in France or sugar beet stations. TGV Picardie is the most famous one. But you have many others. Also, a lot of train services do not serve any purpose other than please local authorities!
 
lysflyer
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Re: France govt abandons the Notre Dame des Landes Airport project

Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:02 pm

TGV Haute Picardie station aka "beet station"
Le Creusot TGV
Lorraine TGV

I may forget a couple other...

As I said before, I won't convince you. I was just telling my opinion on a forum about that crappy decision to build an airport without satisfying the needs of the 2 major cities that it is meant to serve. Just to explain my point of view : it's like building a major DWC-like hub in Lille in order to serve Paris and Brussels. Non sense because it's not convenient for people going to Paris nor to people going to Brussels...
 
DWC
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Re: France govt abandons the Notre Dame des Landes Airport project

Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:02 pm

vinniewinnie wrote:
ro1960 wrote:
lysflyer wrote:
Do I have to tell you the names of TGV stations, airports that are located in silly locations


Please do, I'm curious. And provide figures that support that they are a waste of money (lack or decline of traffic).


They are called gares betteraves in France or sugar beet stations. TGV Picardie is the most famous one. But you have many others. Also, a lot of train services do not serve any purpose other than please local authorities!

Nonsense : it is the network that is maximized, not the regional stations that hardly support international traffic anyway.
SPEED : serving fast the PARIS-LONDON-BRUSSELS triple axis ( and from there Amsterdam or Cologne ) was far more important than serving much smaller towns along the way in Picardie & Nord-Pas de Calais, it does not make sense to divert TGVs to towns barely an hour away from Paris like Compiègne or Amiens, Arras & Lille are about the minimum distance where it makes sense and actually both have direct TGV service. The same applies to the common station to Metz/Nancy or to TGV stations along the Paris-Lyon-Marseille Axis : they were not built to please local baronets as you put it, but to minimize time travel between major metropolis at 300 km/h on commercial service.
Go to Germany to see what it is to please local service and you get the slowish 200 km/h ICE ( TGVs are 50% faster ).

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Aesma
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Re: France govt abandons the Notre Dame des Landes Airport project

Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:17 pm

Journalists always talk about pro-airport and anti-airport people. But they're all anti-airport, just not the same one !

Except for politicians who expect tax revenue or eye the current airport's location for development, the rest are simply NIMBYs.

On top of the environmental argument against the new airport, my main beef with it was the cost. The referendum should have included a question along those lines "are you ready to pay XXXX€ more in taxes to get that airport ?" then the result might have been different.
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ro1960
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Re: France govt abandons the Notre Dame des Landes Airport project

Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:20 pm

lysflyer wrote:
TGV Haute Picardie station aka "beet station"
Le Creusot TGV
Lorraine TGV

I may forget a couple other...

As I said before, I won't convince you. I was just telling my opinion on a forum about that crappy decision to build an airport without satisfying the needs of the 2 major cities that it is meant to serve. Just to explain my point of view : it's like building a major DWC-like hub in Lille in order to serve Paris and Brussels. Non sense because it's not convenient for people going to Paris nor to people going to Brussels...


I'm not trying to convince you either. I'm genuinely interested in reading facts about the waste of money you're talking about.

And specially about "beets" airports too. So far you've only named TGV stations, which is not really what is being discussed here.

Your comparison of NDDL and DWC is maybe a tad exaggerated...
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AirInterCRV
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Re: France govt abandons the Notre Dame des Landes Airport project

Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:31 pm

sensible decision.
This airport was the brainchild of our great French centralized planning by Polytechnique-trained little geniuses in their echo chamber - courtesy of which we enjoy:
- electricity that is 75% nuclear-fueled, at the time of Fukushima and wind turbines
- empty TGV stations in the middle of nowhere (and DWC: are 10 min less to Brussels worth 1h more to Amiens ? Says who ?...)
- La Défense (no comment needed - if you know, you know...)

This thing was imagined 50 years ago to "relieve Parisian airports" (??...), in particular for Concorde transatlantic flights. The latest project in date was located just far enough from every neighboring significant city to be inconvenient for everyone, would have generated extra road traffic and infrastructure needs in what has been a lovely countryside for centuries, and would almost certainly have underperformed traffic targets.
 
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ro1960
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Re: France govt abandons the Notre Dame des Landes Airport project

Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:10 pm

Maybe CDG should have never been built in the middle of nowhere, North West of Paris where beets used to grow peacefully and ORY could have just been upgraded. Oh but wait, maybe ORY should have never been built in the South of Paris and LBG could have been upgraded to absorb the more 100 millions passengers that transited through CDG and ORY in 2017. And the same could go for Croydon, Stappleton, Riem, and probably many others.

I'm all for saving the planet but let's not forget that these new airports have provided jobs to millions of people, some of them on a.net I believe. And unless we stop making babies, there will be more and more of them.

Granted not all decisions made in France about infrastructure were/are wise. But in the case of NDDL, I do believe that not building it is a major mistake. Let's talk about it in 10 years time when traffic will have doubled (again) and people will still be waiting for the ground to be broken at NTE.
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kelval
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Re: France govt abandons the Notre Dame des Landes Airport project

Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:10 am

ro1960 wrote:
lysflyer wrote:
TGV Haute Picardie station aka "beet station"
Le Creusot TGV
Lorraine TGV

I may forget a couple other...

As I said before, I won't convince you. I was just telling my opinion on a forum about that crappy decision to build an airport without satisfying the needs of the 2 major cities that it is meant to serve. Just to explain my point of view : it's like building a major DWC-like hub in Lille in order to serve Paris and Brussels. Non sense because it's not convenient for people going to Paris nor to people going to Brussels...


I'm not trying to convince you either. I'm genuinely interested in reading facts about the waste of money you're talking about.

And specially about "beets" airports too. So far you've only named TGV stations, which is not really what is being discussed here.

Your comparison of NDDL and DWC is maybe a tad exaggerated...

Pretty easy.
It seems having their own airport was the hype for every single middle sized town in the 90ies-00ies.
- Angers was brand new at the turn of the century, and never managed to attract regular companies. Now almost deserted by commercial aviation since the DGAC has relocated the control tower personnel.
All of those only see 2 to 3 scheduled departures a day (plus a peak in summer) by one or two companies that are either Hop or Ryanair. Ryanair's being heavily subsidized, adding to the cost of the whole thing.
- Poitiers (Ryanair, Hop!]
- Tours (Ryanair)
- Lorient (Hop!/Air France)
- Quimper (Hop!/Air France)
- Carcassonne that's really close to Toulouse (Ryanair only).

Anyway, those usually rely heavily on public subsidies, have been eye openers for the taxpayers and call for a reflection on the need for airports everywhere.
 
SCQ83
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Re: France govt abandons the Notre Dame des Landes Airport project

Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:02 am

I was thinking about visiting Mt St Michel and looked at RNS and was surprised about how little service and how small the airport is.

According to Wikipedia, it closed 2016 with 640,000 passengers (despite a +18.8% increase over 2015). Why does RNS see so little service? Rennes is a relatively large city and those passenger figures are really small for a city that size in a developed European market.
 
Theseus
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Re: France govt abandons the Notre Dame des Landes Airport project

Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:23 am

AirInterCRV wrote:
- electricity that is 75% nuclear-fueled, at the time of Fukushima and wind turbines
- empty TGV stations in the middle of nowhere (and DWC: are 10 min less to Brussels worth 1h more to Amiens ? Says who ?...)
- La Défense (no comment needed - if you know, you know...)


Beautiful list indeed, but it is not stopping here:
- Saclay (as La Défense, if you know, you know...)
 
yonahleung
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Re: France govt abandons the Notre Dame des Landes Airport project

Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:53 am

SCQ83 wrote:
I was thinking about visiting Mt St Michel and looked at RNS and was surprised about how little service and how small the airport is.

According to Wikipedia, it closed 2016 with 640,000 passengers (despite a +18.8% increase over 2015). Why does RNS see so little service? Rennes is a relatively large city and those passenger figures are really small for a city that size in a developed European market.


The TGV is really quick and painless. (And actually cheap if you book in advance) SNCF only asked for 28 Euros to take me from Paris to Mont Saint Michel (including the bus), you just can't beat it by air.
(And public transport outside the Paris-Rennes-Mont Saint Michel axis is very sparse and it was extremely hard to plan an itinerary that does not utilise the TGV).
 
kelval
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Re: France govt abandons the Notre Dame des Landes Airport project

Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:36 am

Theseus wrote:
AirInterCRV wrote:
- electricity that is 75% nuclear-fueled, at the time of Fukushima and wind turbines
- empty TGV stations in the middle of nowhere (and DWC: are 10 min less to Brussels worth 1h more to Amiens ? Says who ?...)
- La Défense (no comment needed - if you know, you know...)


Beautiful list indeed, but it is not stopping here:
- Saclay (as La Défense, if you know, you know...)


No offense, but this is an international forum, and even if most of the posters on this thread (including me) are french, hints aren't really helpful to readers.

yonahleung wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
I was thinking about visiting Mt St Michel and looked at RNS and was surprised about how little service and how small the airport is.

According to Wikipedia, it closed 2016 with 640,000 passengers (despite a +18.8% increase over 2015). Why does RNS see so little service? Rennes is a relatively large city and those passenger figures are really small for a city that size in a developed European market.


The TGV is really quick and painless. (And actually cheap if you book in advance) SNCF only asked for 28 Euros to take me from Paris to Mont Saint Michel (including the bus), you just can't beat it by air.
(And public transport outside the Paris-Rennes-Mont Saint Michel axis is very sparse and it was extremely hard to plan an itinerary that does not utilise the TGV).


I can't agree more with you.
Trains are a very viable and competitive option compared to planes.
There are two downsides to the TGV infrastructure so far:
- No transversal lines ( almost everything goes through Paris)
- A couple of big towns like Toulouse or Nice are left out of the loop. No wonder those towns rely more heavily on their airports.
 
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ro1960
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Re: France govt abandons the Notre Dame des Landes Airport project

Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:36 am

kelval wrote:
Pretty easy.
It seems having their own airport was the hype for every single middle sized town in the 90ies-00ies.
- Angers was brand new at the turn of the century, and never managed to attract regular companies. Now almost deserted by commercial aviation since the DGAC has relocated the control tower personnel.
All of those only see 2 to 3 scheduled departures a day (plus a peak in summer) by one or two companies that are either Hop or Ryanair. Ryanair's being heavily subsidized, adding to the cost of the whole thing.
- Poitiers (Ryanair, Hop!]
- Tours (Ryanair)
- Lorient (Hop!/Air France)
- Quimper (Hop!/Air France)
- Carcassonne that's really close to Toulouse (Ryanair only).

Anyway, those usually rely heavily on public subsidies, have been eye openers for the taxpayers and call for a reflection on the need for airports everywhere.



Aside from Angers, all other airports are not new, they've been around for years and some share the field with military bases. As for Carcassonne, the traffic is picking up again.
Granted they've seen they're traffic decline but you can't blame local politicians for trying to drive the economy by improving the facilities or opening new routes. Whether they do it right is what you're questioning I think.

As for NTE, it is a little different as it has seen constant healthy growth for the last 20 years and we're in the 4 millions plus numbers here unlike the other airports you mention. Capacity is already an issue and improving the current airport will only partially respond to the problem and in the short term only.

As for subsidies, most public transport is subsidised. Maybe more in France than in other EU countries, I don't know. But aren't you happy you only pay your metro ride in Paris €1.40 instead of its real cost which is around €5?
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rouelan
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Re: France govt abandons the Notre Dame des Landes Airport project

Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:53 am

SCQ83 wrote:
Why does RNS see so little service? Rennes is a relatively large city and those passenger figures are really small for a city that size in a developed European market.


It may be that RNS marketing team is not agressively chasing the LCC.

Over the time, NTE has become THE airport for Brittany with Tour Operators (big market) bringing their customers there and contributing to a virtuous circle with capacity creating demand

Which is also why NDDL was not a silly idea, slightly better placed than NTE for Brittany
 
rouelan
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Re: France govt abandons the Notre Dame des Landes Airport project

Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:57 am

lysflyer wrote:
nowadays people want convenient access to cities and this is just what NTE or RNS do! NDDL is located in a crappy location without any fast access to any of the cities NDDL was supposed to serve


Quite odd statement from a guy flying from LYS ! According to google map, NDDL would have been closer to NTE than LYS is from the city center !
 
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ro1960
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Re: France govt abandons the Notre Dame des Landes Airport project

Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:09 pm

rouelan wrote:
lysflyer wrote:
nowadays people want convenient access to cities and this is just what NTE or RNS do! NDDL is located in a crappy location without any fast access to any of the cities NDDL was supposed to serve


Quite odd statement from a guy flying from LYS ! According to google map, NDDL would have been closer to NTE than LYS is from the city center !


In one of my previous posts I almost took Satolas as an example of airport built in a beets field....
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mig17
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Re: France govt abandons the Notre Dame des Landes Airport project

Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:43 pm

The main weakness of France transportation system is that everyone and everything has to go through Paris. Planes, trains and freeways (which are not free ^^) linked Paris to the rest of the country.
It is great if you live in "l'Ile de France" near the capital like I do, but in terms of teritorial arrangement, not so great.
The result is that every small to middle sized town wants to have it's own connection to Paris and so build small structures to achieved that where a bigger structure for several towns linking them to Paris "and further" would have been a better plan.
France has to much regional airport and not enougt international ones. I am not speaking long range but direct short and medium range to the rest of France and to Europe.
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ro1960
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Re: France govt abandons the Notre Dame des Landes Airport project

Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:11 pm

mig17 wrote:
The main weakness of France transportation system is that everyone and everything has to go through Paris. Planes, trains and freeways (which are not free ^^) linked Paris to the rest of the country.
It is great if you live in "l'Ile de France" near the capital like I do, but in terms of teritorial arrangement, not so great.
The result is that every small to middle sized town wants to have it's own connection to Paris and so build small structures to achieved that where a bigger structure for several towns linking them to Paris "and further" would have been a better plan.
France has to much regional airport and not enougt international ones. I am not speaking long range but direct short and medium range to the rest of France and to Europe.


Actually the latest figures (2016) show the trend is opposite:

Paris - Province (Radiales) +1.38%
Province - Province (Transversales) +6.84%
Paris - International +1.79%
Province - International +5.02%

And if you look at the detail Province-Province passenger numbers, amongst the double digit figures, you can find 7 routes to/from NTE:
CALVI NANTES +170.50%
CALVI LILLE +134.60%
FIGARI LYON +75.10%
BASTIA BALE/MULHOUSE +73.60%
FIGARI LILLE +66.20%
NICE RENNES +49.70%
BASTIA LYON +38.10%
AJACCIO LYON +34.80%
NICE STRASBOURG +32.10%
BORDEAUX FIGARI +32.10%
AJACCIO BALE/MULHOUSE +30.50%
BASTIA STRASBOURG +29.60%
AJACCIO CAEN +29.10%
BORDEAUX RENNES +25.60%
FIGARI TOULOUSE +23.00%
BORDEAUX MARSEILLE +22.40%
BASTIA LILLE +21.80%
AJACCIO STRASBOURG +21.00%
AJACCIO BORDEAUX +19.70%
LYON POITIERS +18.50%
MONTPELLIER NANTES +17.70%
BIARRITZ MARSEILLE +16.50%
BASTIA TOULOUSE +16.30%
LILLE NICE +16.20%
BASTIA BORDEAUX +16.20%
BREST LYON +15.80%
CHALONS-VATRY NICE +15.70%
FIGARI NANTES +15.60%
BORDEAUX STRASBOURG +15.40%
LYON STRASBOURG +15.40%
LYON NANTES +15.00%
AJACCIO NANTES +13.40%
BIARRITZ STRASBOURG +13.40%
NANTES NICE +12.70%
BASTIA NANTES +12.20%
AJACCIO TOULOUSE +12.10%
STRASBOURG TOULOUSE +11.80%

Source: http://www.ecologique-solidaire.gouv.fr/sites/default/files/Bulletin_Stat_trafic_aerien_2016.pdf
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Olddog
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Re: France govt abandons the Notre Dame des Landes Airport project

Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:22 pm

Well Ayraud was Mayor of Nantes and French Prime minister. He was not able to get NDDL built, so....
 
lysflyer
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Re: France govt abandons the Notre Dame des Landes Airport project

Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:02 pm

@rouelan...I agree with you. LYS is not ideally located but it was part of a bigger infrastructure project with the South-East HSL and is correctly served by road. It only lacks of a local train station and better public transport services. The Rhonexpress is a complete rip-off and the tramway line should have been extended instead of building this Rhonexpress thing.
But you can't blame my position about NDDL just because LYS (which was built in the mid-70s btw) is located far away from LYS. And it's quite far fetched to call it in a beet field...

Building NDDL doesn't mean adding NTE+RNS figures btw ;) anyway...
 
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breiz
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Re: France govt abandons the Notre Dame des Landes Airport project

Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:39 pm

ro1960 wrote:
Locals voted in favor of building it through a referendum. There are 180 court rulings backing the referedum. Both Macron and Philippe said these decisions should be respected. Now that they are in office they don't stick to their word.

To be accurate, it was a "consultation" (a public opinion poll) not a referendum which is a legal binding process.
The proponents of this poll were careful enough to limit it to very local people, mainly from Nantes as the most populated area. Surprisingly only 57% voted for the new airport.
After the recent decision was announced, 70% of the French expressed their support.
It was difficult for the present government to make big strives in ecological policies while destroying so much farm land.
 
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ro1960
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Re: France govt abandons the Notre Dame des Landes Airport project

Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:47 am

breiz wrote:
ro1960 wrote:
Locals voted in favor of building it through a referendum. There are 180 court rulings backing the referedum. Both Macron and Philippe said these decisions should be respected. Now that they are in office they don't stick to their word.

To be accurate, it was a "consultation" (a public opinion poll) not a referendum which is a legal binding process.
The proponents of this poll were careful enough to limit it to very local people, mainly from Nantes as the most populated area. Surprisingly only 57% voted for the new airport.
After the recent decision was announced, 70% of the French expressed their support.
It was difficult for the present government to make big strives in ecological policies while destroying so much farm land.


You are correct, it was a "consultation locale", a new provision specifically created for the occasion, opened to the 966k voters of the Loire-Atlantique department. All politicians, in office or running for office, said they will respect the outcome of this consultation. None did.

Farmland is important but it's not free. Subsidies in the EU amount for 34% of the budget.

Vinci, who was to operate the new airport, is entitled to compensations estimated at around €350 million. There is a special fund of around €100 million fed by airline tickets flying to NTE to help pay for the new airport.

So in the end, public money, that is EU taxpayer money has been spent and will still be spent. But no economic growth in the area will come and compensate this spending. The 50k or so people affected by aircraft noise will see no relief unless their houses are sound proofed and they live with their windows closed and never spend time in their garden with their families. Moving away will be difficult as their property value, which has already dropped, will continue to fall.

As a side note, and I'm not trying to be dramatic here, suicide rate amongst farmers is higher than in the average population and is at its highest in Brittany (25 for 100k).

This looks like a lose-lose situation to me.
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mig17
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Re: France govt abandons the Notre Dame des Landes Airport project

Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:37 am

ro1960 wrote:
mig17 wrote:
The main weakness of France transportation system is that everyone and everything has to go through Paris. Planes, trains and freeways (which are not free ^^) linked Paris to the rest of the country.
It is great if you live in "l'Ile de France" near the capital like I do, but in terms of teritorial arrangement, not so great.
The result is that every small to middle sized town wants to have it's own connection to Paris and so build small structures to achieved that where a bigger structure for several towns linking them to Paris "and further" would have been a better plan.
France has to much regional airport and not enougt international ones. I am not speaking long range but direct short and medium range to the rest of France and to Europe.


Actually the latest figures (2016) show the trend is opposite:

Paris - Province (Radiales) +1.38%
Province - Province (Transversales) +6.84%
Paris - International +1.79%
Province - International +5.02%

And if you look at the detail Province-Province passenger numbers, amongst the double digit figures, you can find 7 routes to/from NTE:
CALVI NANTES +170.50%
CALVI LILLE +134.60%
FIGARI LYON +75.10%
BASTIA BALE/MULHOUSE +73.60%
FIGARI LILLE +66.20%
NICE RENNES +49.70%
BASTIA LYON +38.10%
AJACCIO LYON +34.80%
NICE STRASBOURG +32.10%
BORDEAUX FIGARI +32.10%
AJACCIO BALE/MULHOUSE +30.50%
BASTIA STRASBOURG +29.60%
AJACCIO CAEN +29.10%
BORDEAUX RENNES +25.60%
FIGARI TOULOUSE +23.00%
BORDEAUX MARSEILLE +22.40%
BASTIA LILLE +21.80%
AJACCIO STRASBOURG +21.00%
AJACCIO BORDEAUX +19.70%
LYON POITIERS +18.50%
MONTPELLIER NANTES +17.70%
BIARRITZ MARSEILLE +16.50%
BASTIA TOULOUSE +16.30%
LILLE NICE +16.20%
BASTIA BORDEAUX +16.20%
BREST LYON +15.80%
CHALONS-VATRY NICE +15.70%
FIGARI NANTES +15.60%
BORDEAUX STRASBOURG +15.40%
LYON STRASBOURG +15.40%
LYON NANTES +15.00%
AJACCIO NANTES +13.40%
BIARRITZ STRASBOURG +13.40%
NANTES NICE +12.70%
BASTIA NANTES +12.20%
AJACCIO TOULOUSE +12.10%
STRASBOURG TOULOUSE +11.80%

Source: http://www.ecologique-solidaire.gouv.fr/sites/default/files/Bulletin_Stat_trafic_aerien_2016.pdf


Those trends are going the right way, but the current situation is that there is twice much radials than transversales in France and more than half of international traffic is to/from Paris CDG only.
There are several other big destination of course, Toulouse, Nice, Marseille, Lyon, ... But all the airports listed with less than 2 million pax a year (espacialy those with less than 500k) are not so far of bigger ones to justify having all of them.
727 AT, 737 UX/SK/TO/SS, 747 UT/AF/SQ/BA/SS, 767 UA, 777 AF, A300 IW/TG, A310 EK, A318/19/20/21 AF/U2/VY, A332/3 EK/QR/TX, A343 AF, A388 AF, E145/170/190 A5/WF, Q400 WF, ATR 72 A5/TX, CRJ100/700/1000 A5, C-150/172, PC-6.
 
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Aesma
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Re: France govt abandons the Notre Dame des Landes Airport project

Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:01 pm

If French cities other than Paris grow faster than Paris, traffic will follow. At the moment the Île-de-France region represents a third of the French GDP, and it's also the political center of the country, so of course everywhere wants to be connected to there.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
mig17
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Re: France govt abandons the Notre Dame des Landes Airport project

Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:29 pm

Aesma wrote:
If French cities other than Paris grow faster than Paris, traffic will follow. At the moment the Île-de-France region represents a third of the French GDP, and it's also the political center of the country, so of course everywhere wants to be connected to there.

Agreed. But for those cities to grow, you have to prepare that with some incentive.

NDDL was an incentive to create an airport for the future of the entire Brittany region and free the space of Nantes Atlantique in and near Nantes for further developpement.

If we refuse to anticipate the développement out of Paris, we will stay centralised forever. Not that I complain about that but I understand the criticism of people saying Paris always come first.
727 AT, 737 UX/SK/TO/SS, 747 UT/AF/SQ/BA/SS, 767 UA, 777 AF, A300 IW/TG, A310 EK, A318/19/20/21 AF/U2/VY, A332/3 EK/QR/TX, A343 AF, A388 AF, E145/170/190 A5/WF, Q400 WF, ATR 72 A5/TX, CRJ100/700/1000 A5, C-150/172, PC-6.
 
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ro1960
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Re: France govt abandons the Notre Dame des Landes Airport project

Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:31 pm

mig17 wrote:
Those trends are going the right way, but the current situation is that there is twice much radials than transversales in France and more than half of international traffic is to/from Paris CDG only.
There are several other big destination of course, Toulouse, Nice, Marseille, Lyon, ... But all the airports listed with less than 2 million pax a year (espacialy those with less than 500k) are not so far of bigger ones to justify having all of them.


I must admit that I am not following your statement. Although these airports show 2-digit growth some of them should be closed because they have under 500k pax a year?
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mig17
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Re: France govt abandons the Notre Dame des Landes Airport project

Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:51 pm

ro1960 wrote:
mig17 wrote:
Those trends are going the right way, but the current situation is that there is twice much radials than transversales in France and more than half of international traffic is to/from Paris CDG only.
There are several other big destination of course, Toulouse, Nice, Marseille, Lyon, ... But all the airports listed with less than 2 million pax a year (espacialy those with less than 500k) are not so far of bigger ones to justify having all of them.


I must admit that I am not following your statement. Although these airports show 2-digit growth some of them should be closed because they have under 500k pax a year?

Some of them should not have been built in the first place or some built together for several towns like Basle-Mulhouse.
By the way, if some have 2 digit groth, some also have 2 digit fallbacks.
727 AT, 737 UX/SK/TO/SS, 747 UT/AF/SQ/BA/SS, 767 UA, 777 AF, A300 IW/TG, A310 EK, A318/19/20/21 AF/U2/VY, A332/3 EK/QR/TX, A343 AF, A388 AF, E145/170/190 A5/WF, Q400 WF, ATR 72 A5/TX, CRJ100/700/1000 A5, C-150/172, PC-6.
 
r2rho
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Re: France govt abandons the Notre Dame des Landes Airport project

Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:59 pm

Rather shortsighted if you ask me. There's no need to build the new airport now, but at least keep the land reserve for the future, you never know...
In the meantime the land can be leased for agriculture. No big deal.
IMO this is just Macron looking for a short term PR gain and scoring some "green points".

In a similar manner, Germany abandoned land reserves for an airport in Kaltenkirchen, thereby depriving Hamburg of a chance to get a large airport once HAM is overgrown. This will come to bite back in a decade or so.

Having said that, NTE at just below 5 Mio pax still has plenty of potential and room for expansion, a rail link, etc before enough city residents start to complain about noise and a new airport must be considered. Expanding NTE should be the priority.

- Nantes Atlantique vould have had to stay because of the Airbus plant there.

Not necessarily. Airbus posed no resistance at all when Filton was shut down. They don't seem to care much about their airports, and would just truck the stuff to St Nazaire and go by ship from there.
 
r2rho
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Re: France govt abandons the Notre Dame des Landes Airport project

Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:15 pm

Go to Germany to see what it is to please local service and you get the slowish 200 km/h ICE ( TGVs are 50% faster ).

Germany has the issue that population is much more decentralized, and thus more stops are needed, but I agree with you that having the ICE run along with regional and freight trains and stop at every 50,000 people city kills the speeds and travel times.
This airport was the brainchild of our great French centralized planning by Polytechnique-trained little geniuses in their echo chamber

Please send some of those excess geniuses over here to Germany, where we have BER, Stuttgart21, and no real TGV-like network. France may not always make the right decisions on infrastructure, but at least they get things done.
 
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ro1960
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Re: France govt abandons the Notre Dame des Landes Airport project

Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:34 pm

r2rho wrote:
Rather shortsighted if you ask me. There's no need to build the new airport now, but at least keep the land reserve for the future, you never know...
In the meantime the land can be leased for agriculture. No big deal.
IMO this is just Macron looking for a short term PR gain and scoring some "green points".

Definetely. He certainly wouldn't want to see Hulot, his green Minister, resign.


r2rho wrote:
In a similar manner, Germany abandoned land reserves for an airport in Kaltenkirchen, thereby depriving Hamburg of a chance to get a large airport once HAM is overgrown. This will come to bite back in a decade or so.

The government has clearly stated that it will lift the preemptive rights they had on the land and return it to the original owners or to farmers with a project.


r2rho wrote:
Having said that, NTE at just below 5 Mio pax still has plenty of potential and room for expansion, a rail link, etc before enough city residents start to complain about noise and a new airport must be considered. Expanding NTE should be the priority.

Forecast for 2017 is 5.5 million. NTE doesn't have "plenty" of room for expansion. It does have some but expansion needed to cope with the traffic increase has not even been discussed. Even if you praise the French decision making as being faster than the German's, it will take at least 10 years before any project arises. If the current trend continues, NTE will see close to 10 million pax in 2027 and nowhere to put them.
You may like my airport photos:
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rouelan
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Re: France govt abandons the Notre Dame des Landes Airport project

Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:56 pm

mig17 wrote:
The main weakness of France transportation system is that everyone and everything has to go through Paris


I am not sure to agree. Especially for domestic, there has always been a multitude of direct routes and even regional hubs like LYS (in the past, CFE). But the issue was the lack of competition: so, lot of routes but small aircraft and high fares.
The picture only recently changed (easyJet entered the market in 2008 I think and Volotea is now invading the smaller routes). It explains why traffic is growing fast as the prices go down.
Paris is another story as most of routes are competing with TGV, hence a very mature market
 
Olddog
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Re: France govt abandons the Notre Dame des Landes Airport project

Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:06 pm

And according to a poll I saw today 68 % french people agree with that cancellation.
 
rouelan
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Re: France govt abandons the Notre Dame des Landes Airport project

Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:12 pm

ro1960 wrote:
If the current trend continues, NTE will see close to 10 million pax in 2027 and nowhere to put them.


As previously discussed, current trends are due to the fact that most traffic from Brittany now converge to Nantes. So, the government was adamant to include Rennes in the plan B. I dont know exactely what they can do (subsidize the airport ?) and I am not sure it is a good idea to split the traffic over two airports 100 kms apart. Anyway, decision was taken.
 
rouelan
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Re: France govt abandons the Notre Dame des Landes Airport project

Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:16 pm

Olddog wrote:
And according to a poll I saw today 68 % french people agree with that cancellation.


I also saw this poll. The question was "do you agree with the decision to cancel NDDL and expell the "zadists" ?"

It could be that most people dont care with the 1st but strongly approve the government who wants to restore order
 
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ro1960
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Re: France govt abandons the Notre Dame des Landes Airport project

Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:47 pm

rouelan wrote:
So, the government was adamant to include Rennes in the plan B. I dont know exactely what they can do (subsidize the airport ?)

The mayor of Rennes was on the radio this morning and she said that she's all for developing their airport. RNS is at almost 800k pax and forecast is at around 1.3 m. But there are limitations on what can be done beside terminal improvements.Urban and industrial surrounding areas and a river make it next to impossible to expand. She regrets the government's decision.


rouelan wrote:
I am not sure it is a good idea to split the traffic over two airports 100 kms apart.

I agree. Splitting traffic across all Brittany's airports will work on the short term. Eventually they will face the same limitations as NTE.


rouelan wrote:
Anyway, decision was taken.

And no solution to a 50-year old problem!
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Olddog
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Re: France govt abandons the Notre Dame des Landes Airport project

Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:52 pm

What I find hilarious is all theses socialists mayors that complain now and where not able to build that airport when they had all the powers since 2012 .....
 
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ro1960
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Re: France govt abandons the Notre Dame des Landes Airport project

Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:54 pm

Olddog wrote:
And according to a poll I saw today 68 % french people agree with that cancellation.

The same poll says 66% regret that consultation's result was not respected!
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Aesma
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Re: France govt abandons the Notre Dame des Landes Airport project

Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:35 pm

Olddog wrote:
What I find hilarious is all theses socialists mayors that complain now and where not able to build that airport when they had all the powers since 2012 .....


Especially Ayrault. The project was dead until he revived it under Jospin. Then he became prime minister and tried, but failed. What did he expect from a new government that had no interest in the project to begin with ?

I have family in Brittany, and my parents a vacation home, however I've never even been to Nantes ! Nantes isn't in the current region of Brittany, and where I go is very far from there (BES, MXN). Would investing a lot of money in Nantes help Brittany, color me not convinced.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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ro1960
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Re: France govt abandons the Notre Dame des Landes Airport project

Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:00 pm

An article in Le Point outlines what's next for NTE after the government decided not to buil NDDL:


    Lengthening of the runway from 2,900 meters to 3,600 meters to allow planes to fly to a higher altitude above the built-up area, thus reducing noise nuisance. Land acquisitions will be necessary.

    5.4 million passengers passed through Nantes-Atlantique last year, 700,000 more than in 2016 (+ 13%). For 170 days, the airport was saturated, against 6 in 2011. Five thousand square meters of terminal need to be built and funded.

    NTE growth much higher than the national average of 4%, suggests that the 9 million passengers announced at Nantes-Atlantique in 2040, according to the report of experts commissioned by Nicolas Hulot (Environment minister), could be reached as early as 2022.

    Local authorities not inclined to fund another project with a budget ranging from an estimated 450 million euros to one billion euros.

    "We will also support the development of the Rennes Saint-Jacques airport, "said the Prime Minister, it seems, poorly informed about the resources available. According to opponents, the airport in Rennes, landlocked between a wetland and the PSA plant, has little future.

    The extension of the existing tram that stops at the Neustrie station 2.5 km from the airport is estimated at around 50 million euros. The development of the existing SNCF Nantes-Pornic line with the creation of a railway station whose amount could exceed 1.9 million euros.

    Timeline: ten years once exhausted administrative and judicial remedies. In addition, the state would carry the project, which is often synonymous with delays and procrastination (no kidding!)

Full article in French:
http://www.lepoint.fr/societe/quels-lendemains-pour-nantes-atlantique-20-01-2018-2188177_23.php
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ro1960
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Re: France govt abandons the Notre Dame des Landes Airport project

Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:47 pm

Olddog wrote:
What I find hilarious is all theses socialists mayors that complain now and where not able to build that airport when they had all the powers since 2012 .....


The power is not in the hands of mayors when it comes to building airports. The former governments didn't get the airport built nor did the current one. But they both made decisions on the project. The "Socialists" decided in favor, LREM against.
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rouelan
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Re: France govt abandons the Notre Dame des Landes Airport project

Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:28 pm

Aesma wrote:
I have family in Brittany, and my parents a vacation home, however I've never even been to Nantes ! Nantes isn't in the current region of Brittany, and where I go is very far from there (BES, MXN). Would investing a lot of money in Nantes help Brittany, color me not convinced.


Brittany is not only about Tizef (nickname for Brest locals). I agree that NTE is really far for them but not for departments 56, 35 and parts of 22. NTE not being (or being) in Brittany is not relevant in their (or TOs) choice
 
Olddog
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Re: France govt abandons the Notre Dame des Landes Airport project

Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:40 pm

ro1960 wrote:
The power is not in the hands of mayors when it comes to building airports. The former governments didn't get the airport built nor did the current one. But they both made decisions on the project. The "Socialists" decided in favor, LREM against.


You are joking right? Since 2012 the socialists had all the powers in France. From the mayor of Nantes to the government, including region, parliament AND senate. What was missing is a pair of balls to actually make and apply a decision....

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