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BWIAirport
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Split Scimitar winglet customers

Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:02 pm

After the certification and introduction of the split scimitar winglet on the 737NG series in 2014, many airlines jumped on, notably United, Alaska, and the TUI group, most of whom have the majority of their fleet equipped, or are planning to do so. Plenty of other airlines, such as Comair Ltd, Gol, and Delta have parts of their fleets equipped. However, it seems there have been no new customers of the design recently.
Southwest likely plans to retrofit the rest of their 738 with them soon, and they seem to be making progress on the 73G. Alaska and United seem mostly done.
Do other airlines that have some, such as Delta, plan on retrofitting the rest of their fleets with them? Additionally, do large 737 operators such as American or Ryanair have plans to fit their aircraft with split scimitar winglets? And are there any other customers planning to do so?
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reffado
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Re: Split Scimitar winglet customers

Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:18 pm

Copa is also in the process of retrofitting theirs, AFAIK. As for AA and FR, if they haven't yet, I don't think they will. But I'm also interested in hearing more knowledgeable opinions on it.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Split Scimitar winglet customers

Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:21 pm

Due to lower fuel prices, demand for the split scimitar winglet has dropped.
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jnev3289
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Re: Split Scimitar winglet customers

Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:29 pm

Would any future blank sheet aircraft come with Scimitar-like winglets standard since they seem to undoubtedly aid in fuel efficiency?
 
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BWIAirport
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Re: Split Scimitar winglet customers

Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:47 pm

reffado wrote:
Copa is also in the process of retrofitting theirs, AFAIK. As for AA and FR, if they haven't yet, I don't think they will. But I'm also interested in hearing more knowledgeable opinions on it.

I agree, I would've thought airlines like that would have started by now.
SWA, UAL, DAL, AWE, ASA, TRS, DLH, CLH, AFR, BAW, EIN, AAL | E190 DC94 CRJ2 B712 B733 B737 B738 B739 B744 B752 B753 B762 B77W A319 A320 A20N A321 A333 A343 A388 MD88
 
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BWIAirport
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Re: Split Scimitar winglet customers

Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:48 pm

jnev3289 wrote:
Would any future blank sheet aircraft come with Scimitar-like winglets standard since they seem to undoubtedly aid in fuel efficiency?

Closest obvious answer is the Max, which has several design features I'd imagine would be adopted on a clean-sheet design, especially for a short-haul/MoM aircraft.
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justplanesmart
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Re: Split Scimitar winglet customers

Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:11 am

Two recent SSW customers are Pobeda, which has equipped their recent deliveries with them, and Hainan, although I have yet to see any photos of their aircraft with them.
"So many planes; so little time..."
 
SkyVoice
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Re: Split Scimitar winglet customers

Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:29 am

Would one of you please be so kind as to post a pic of a Split Scimitar winglet so that this "armchair CEO" knows what you are posting about? Thank you in advance!
"Blessed is he who can laugh at himself, for he shall never cease to be amused."
 
AA737-823
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Re: Split Scimitar winglet customers

Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:38 am

jnev3289 wrote:
Would any future blank sheet aircraft come with Scimitar-like winglets standard since they seem to undoubtedly aid in fuel efficiency?


I suspect they'll be limited to Boeing, due to trademark or patent. At least, for a while.
Notice that the blended winglet was limited to Boeing for a while, and then all of a sudden,a decade or more later, Airbus caught on to the idea, after initially claiming there was no appreciable benefit.

But you must also keep in mind that the blended winglet, split scimitar, or bifurcated wedge (my label for the MAX's bizarre wingtip) or any other windtip device is always a second-best option.
The first-best is lengthening the wing.
But eventually, you run out of gate space, so you turn the wing vertical at the end, and voila! Better!
When wing span isn't such a concern, you end up with the 777X design... just go longer and longer.
 
flyguy84
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Re: Split Scimitar winglet customers

Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:51 am

SkyVoice wrote:
Would one of you please be so kind as to post a pic of a Split Scimitar winglet so that this "armchair CEO" knows what you are posting about? Thank you in advance!

Of you could, you know, google it.
SFO
 
pdp
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Re: Split Scimitar winglet customers

Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:59 am

SkyVoice wrote:
Would one of you please be so kind as to post a pic of a Split Scimitar winglet so that this "armchair CEO" knows what you are posting about? Thank you in advance!


There are the various designs here: http://www.b737.org.uk/winglets.htm

There seem to be two variants, the more "swoopy" NG design and the straighter MAX design.
 
SkyVoice
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Re: Split Scimitar winglet customers

Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:05 am

pdp wrote:
SkyVoice wrote:
Would one of you please be so kind as to post a pic of a Split Scimitar winglet so that this "armchair CEO" knows what you are posting about? Thank you in advance!


There are the various designs here: http://www.b737.org.uk/winglets.htm

There seem to be two variants, the more "swoopy" NG design and the straighter MAX design.


Thanks, everyone! O.K., you've convinced me, I'll take a pair in my size. Since I don't own a plane, I'll install them on my armchair!
"Blessed is he who can laugh at himself, for he shall never cease to be amused."
 
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Acey
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Re: Split Scimitar winglet customers

Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:46 am

Canadian carrier WestJet has a sizable -800 scimitar fleet, with almost all of their 48 frames equipped.
If a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
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JannEejit
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Re: Split Scimitar winglet customers

Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:40 pm

How many 757 operators have adopted the new scimitar winglet tip ? I only note Icelandair and United so far. Was there ever a plan to make the 757 version a full split version like the 737 or was it only ever going to adopt the 'bat wing tip' ? I'm assuming relatively low fuel costs and imminent retirement of many 757 fleets are stopping this enhancement from selling as well as the original 757 blended winglet has.
 
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BWIAirport
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Re: Split Scimitar winglet customers

Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:16 pm

JannEejit wrote:
How many 757 operators have adopted the new scimitar winglet tip ? I only note Icelandair and United so far. Was there ever a plan to make the 757 version a full split version like the 737 or was it only ever going to adopt the 'bat wing tip' ? I'm assuming relatively low fuel costs and imminent retirement of many 757 fleets are stopping this enhancement from selling as well as the original 757 blended winglet has.

I could see Delta trying them out on their transcon and TATL 752s, but they've been sporadic with 737 split scimitar installation so I wouldn't hold my breath. As for full split scimitars on 757s, like you alluded to, if they haven't done them already, I doubt there are plans to.
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452QX
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Re: Split Scimitar winglet customers

Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:18 pm

JannEejit wrote:
How many 757 operators have adopted the new scimitar winglet tip ? I only note Icelandair and United so far. Was there ever a plan to make the 757 version a full split version like the 737 or was it only ever going to adopt the 'bat wing tip' ? I'm assuming relatively low fuel costs and imminent retirement of many 757 fleets are stopping this enhancement from selling as well as the original 757 blended winglet has.


I recall seeing some Delta 757s with the new tip
 
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BWIAirport
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Re: Split Scimitar winglet customers

Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:19 pm

452QX wrote:
JannEejit wrote:
How many 757 operators have adopted the new scimitar winglet tip ? I only note Icelandair and United so far. Was there ever a plan to make the 757 version a full split version like the 737 or was it only ever going to adopt the 'bat wing tip' ? I'm assuming relatively low fuel costs and imminent retirement of many 757 fleets are stopping this enhancement from selling as well as the original 757 blended winglet has.


I recall seeing some Delta 757s with the new tip

Do you know which reg #s? A quick scan of the a.net DL 752 photos shows nothing but blended winglet or no winglet aircraft.
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JannEejit
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Re: Split Scimitar winglet customers

Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:30 pm

I just had a quick look at the APB product page and can find no references to the 757 Scimitar product, only traditional blended winglets. Have they taken it 'off market' ?

http://www.aviationpartnersboeing.com/p ... prices.php
 
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Channex757
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Re: Split Scimitar winglet customers

Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:40 pm

Some big carriers like Ryanair are not interested in them. Others, like TUI, have been questioning the decision to fit the new design to their large NG fleet. It really does depend on what you are doing with your 737 and whether you see the investment as worth it.

Jet2 is taking a large number of -800NG at the moment and none have the split scimitars. Unless it's a factory fit version such as on the 737-8MAX then maybe it's only operators who do longer sectors that can see any benefit over added weight and cost to install.
 
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BWIAirport
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Re: Split Scimitar winglet customers

Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:40 pm

JannEejit wrote:
I just had a quick look at the APB product page and can find no references to the 757 Scimitar product, only traditional blended winglets. Have they taken it 'off market' ?

http://www.aviationpartnersboeing.com/p ... prices.php

I have found their page pretty useless in terms of identifying customers new customers. I can't imagine they've taken it off the market, though.
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leleko747
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Re: Split Scimitar winglet customers

Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:07 pm

pdp wrote:

There seem to be two variants, the more "swoopy" NG design and the straighter MAX design.


AFAIK, the Split Scimitar Winglet is the one used in the 737NG.
It's a retrofit for the Blended Winglet and is manufactured by Aviation Partners.

The winglet used on the 737 MAX is the AT Winglet (AT = Advanced Technology).
It is manufactured by Boeing. While it looks similar to the SSW, it's not the same.


Anyone, please feel free to correct me if i'm wrong :highfive:
I wonder when people will understand:
Embraer 190 or simply E190, not ERJ-190. E-Jets are NOT ERJs!
Boeing 747-8, not Boeing 747-800. Same goes for 787.
Airbus A320, not Airbus 320.
Airbii does not exist.
 
ACDC8
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Re: Split Scimitar winglet customers

Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:13 pm

Acey wrote:
Canadian carrier WestJet has a sizable -800 scimitar fleet, with almost all of their 48 frames equipped.

Thats the nice thing about WS, you can easily identify their fleet by the winglets alone - 600s have none, -700s have the standard winglet, -800s have the Splits and the MAX have the newer splits :bigthumbsup:
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
VSMUT
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Re: Split Scimitar winglet customers

Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:41 pm

jnev3289 wrote:
Would any future blank sheet aircraft come with Scimitar-like winglets standard since they seem to undoubtedly aid in fuel efficiency?


Winglets, especially those found on the A320, 737, 767 and 757, are solutions to an imperfect wing. A properly designed wing doesn't need them. For clean sheet designs in the 21st century you are far more likely to find 787, A350 or Sukhoi Superjet* style wingtips from the outset, or even completely without them as seen on the MC-21. This will almost certainly be the case for the hypothetical Boeing NMA too, as well as any future narrowbodies from Airbus and Boeing featuring a brand new wing design.

*The Saberlets showcased recently, not the original wingtips:
viewtopic.php?t=1381695
 
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BWIAirport
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Re: Split Scimitar winglet customers

Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:07 pm

leleko747 wrote:
pdp wrote:

There seem to be two variants, the more "swoopy" NG design and the straighter MAX design.


AFAIK, the Split Scimitar Winglet is the one used in the 737NG.
It's a retrofit for the Blended Winglet and is manufactured by Aviation Partners.

The winglet used on the 737 MAX is the AT Winglet (AT = Advanced Technology).
It is manufactured by Boeing. While it looks similar to the SSW, it's not the same.


Anyone, please feel free to correct me if i'm wrong :highfive:

Nope, you nailed it on the head.

Also I appreciate your signature line :thumbsup:
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saab805
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Re: Split Scimitar winglet customers

Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:15 am

BWIAirport wrote:
leleko747 wrote:
pdp wrote:

There seem to be two variants, the more "swoopy" NG design and the straighter MAX design.


AFAIK, the Split Scimitar Winglet is the one used in the 737NG.
It's a retrofit for the Blended Winglet and is manufactured by Aviation Partners.

The winglet used on the 737 MAX is the AT Winglet (AT = Advanced Technology).
It is manufactured by Boeing. While it looks similar to the SSW, it's not the same.


Anyone, please feel free to correct me if i'm wrong :highfive:

Nope, you nailed it on the head.

Also I appreciate your signature line :thumbsup:



GKN and Korean Air actually manufacture the new AT Winglet for Boeing.
 
LightningZ71
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Re: Split Scimitar winglet customers

Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:29 am

I saw a question up thread about adoption philosophy for the wing tip devices. Please remember that, aside from installation costs, the devices are not free from the laws of physics. They have additional mass over what the original wingtips weighed and require a certain amount of internal strengthening that varies between applications. Lifting that mass to altitude consumes more fuel than is saved by drag reduction for the first few stages of flight, with drag reduction winning somewhere during the cruise stage. If the majority of your flights are about an hour or less, you may never save enough fuel to pay back the cost of having them installed. This is exacerbated by the age of the airframe, which can shorten the length of time that the devices have to pay for their installation. There are perfectly valid reasons for not installing them on middle age or younger airframes.
 
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leleko747
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Re: Split Scimitar winglet customers

Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:46 am

BWIAirport wrote:
Nope, you nailed it on the head.

Also I appreciate your signature line :thumbsup:


saab805 wrote:

GKN and Korean Air actually manufacture the new AT Winglet for Boeing.



Thank you!!! :biggrin:
I wonder when people will understand:
Embraer 190 or simply E190, not ERJ-190. E-Jets are NOT ERJs!
Boeing 747-8, not Boeing 747-800. Same goes for 787.
Airbus A320, not Airbus 320.
Airbii does not exist.
 
justplanesmart
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Re: Split Scimitar winglet customers

Wed Mar 28, 2018 7:43 pm

Aviation Partners Boeing announced on 3/26 that Ethiopian Airlines is the first customer for Split Scimitars in Africa, and has already had one aircraft so equipped on 3/20. Based on flight tracker activity, this is likely ET-APF.
"So many planes; so little time..."
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Split Scimitar winglet customers

Thu Mar 29, 2018 8:19 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Winglets, especially those found on the A320, 737, 767 and 757, are solutions to an imperfect wing. A properly designed wing doesn't need them.


Hardly. Almost any wing will benefit from a wingtip device. However, some wings are optimized for wingtip devices, which were part and parcel of the wing from EIS (the A330/A340 family, the 787 family, the A350 family, and the A380). Other wingtip devices were added to existing wings.

There is simply no way to design a straight wingtip that doesn't have a field of vorticity that forms around the wing leading to a self-induced downdraft. Even wings with tip devices still generate these fields of vorticity, but the axis of the vorticity is moved up and aft and the overall magnitude of the vorticity is somewhat reduced. Moreover, there is no such thing as a perfect wing.

A wingtip device is always a design compromise. In fact, almost every part of an airplane is a design compromise. But that doesn't mean that wingtips are only for defective wings.
-Doc Lightning-

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