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trexel94
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Flights between Luxembourg and America feasible?

Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:46 pm

Would non-stop flights between Luxembourg City and North America (JFK, BOS & YYZ) be feasible with the introduction of aircraft such as the A321 LR?

With Luxembourg's strong business/financial sector would A321LR flights (perhaps outfitted with a higher number of business class seats) make sense to places like JFK, BOS or even YYZ and DXB? The aircraft has the range but is there enough demand? It shouldn't be that difficult to fill up a narrow body plane since not only would it serve Luxembourg but could also attract flyers from southern Belgium, north eastern France and western Germany.

If I recall correctly, I think Luxair used to operate a 747SP to JNB through a joint venture with SAA during the 1980s but did they ever fly to America?

If not, is there still an opportunity? I'm sure businessmen and individuals who live/work in the region would gladly utilize it vs connecting through FRA, LHR, CDG or taking a 3hr train ride.

Just an idea
 
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OzarkD9S
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Re: Flights between Luxembourg and America feasible?

Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:15 pm

IMHO JFK maybe with a 321/757 aircraft. LUX just isn't that big of a market and the dynamics have changed so much since FI did the LUX-KEF-JFK thingy. Dare I say a BBJ with a split J/Y cabin "may" work but with the quick hops to LHR and the others I just don't see LUX-NA as fruit that needs to be picked. Many larger Euro-markets without NA nonstops I think it will be way down the road, if ever.
Next up: STL DEN PSP DEN STL
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Flights between Luxembourg and America feasible?

Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:26 pm

For the last several years, they have been offering an incentive program to lure a carrier to relaunch Trans Atlantic service. Recently they were in talks with TK for a A330 link to JFK.

Turkish Airlines Looking To Start LUX-JFK
viewtopic.php?t=601701

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32andBelow
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Re: Flights between Luxembourg and America feasible?

Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:44 pm

Cargolux already flies to america!
 
trexel94
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Re: Flights between Luxembourg and America feasible?

Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:48 pm

32andBelow wrote:
Cargolux already flies to america!


This is about the possibility of non-stop passenger service.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Flights between Luxembourg and America feasible?

Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:15 am

Luxair had for a brief time, a 767-300ER flight from EWR to Luxembourg, in like 1998, I believe. It did not last.
 
NichCage
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Re: Flights between Luxembourg and America feasible?

Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:08 am

LUX has a long enough runway to handle widebodies (considering it handles big cargo airplanes everyday) but can they handle passenger widebodies at it's gates and taxiways? There is no way an passenger A380, A340, or 747 could be handled, but maybe a 767 or an A330 could be handled at it's gates just fine. Still, LUX is pretty small airport and they mostly handle regional European traffic.
 
N415XJ
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Re: Flights between Luxembourg and America feasible?

Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:31 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
Luxair had for a brief time, a 767-300ER flight from EWR to Luxembourg, in like 1998, I believe. It did not last.

Looks like it was in 1999, operated by CityBird http://aviationweek.com/awin/luxair-lau ... rk-airport

They also had 3 747SPs in the 80s and 90s, operating to NYC and South Africa, IIRC.
http://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/Luxa ... y-b747.htm
 
trexel94
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Re: Flights between Luxembourg and America feasible?

Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:10 am

NichCage wrote:
LUX has a long enough runway to handle widebodies (considering it handles big cargo airplanes everyday) but can they handle passenger widebodies at it's gates and taxiways? There is no way an passenger A380, A340, or 747 could be handled, but maybe a 767 or an A330 could be handled at it's gates just fine. Still, LUX is pretty small airport and they mostly handle regional European traffic.


How about utilizing a long range narrow body such as the A321 LR?
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Flights between Luxembourg and America feasible?

Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:06 am

I've queried on here before if it could work on UA with at least a seasonal 752 out of EWR. The consensus was since it's right in the middle of FRA, CDG, BRU, and AMS that it didn't make that much sense. But with UA in full expansion mode, and if the Luxembourg government offers a subsidy, it has an off chance of happening IMO.
When wasn't America great?


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SCQ83
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Re: Flights between Luxembourg and America feasible?

Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:17 am

I am surprised Icelandair or WOW do not serve LUX. It seems like a good market for them.

With the boom of TATL service due to B737max and A321LR, LUX might be a likely candidate for this kind of service.
 
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neomax
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Re: Flights between Luxembourg and America feasible?

Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:34 am

Cargolux should buy some 748i's and create a pax airline called Paxlux. You heard it here first.
 
barney captain
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Re: Flights between Luxembourg and America feasible?

Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:06 am

32andBelow wrote:
Cargolux already flies to america!


North or South ;)

I learned the hard way when I answered the same way (America) to a US Immigration Officer asking where I was born - and that was his question in reply. Apparently the correct answer is The United States, :)
Southeast Of Disorder
 
BrusselsSouth
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Re: Flights between Luxembourg and America feasible?

Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:51 am

Quite fittingly, I'm writing this from a hotel room overlooking the LUX apron and runway...

From a pax number perspective, LUX is a small regional airport (about 3 million pax in 2016), essentially serving O&D routes, with little to no connections (cargo is another matter).

Luxembourg, the country, has a population of about 600 000, which is comparable to a city like Milwaukee (for the entire country). Luxembourg, the city, is particularly modest for a capital, at about 100 000. As a consultant in finance, I am currently on a long term mission here, and I can tell you that while the finance/banking sector is indeed prominent, it remains very much euro-centric and, all things being considered, relatively modest in size in comparison with global financial places.

So, the need for business travel in the finance/banking sector is essentially regional, and already covered for the largest part. Global connectivity is offered through FRA/MUC/ZRH/AMS/IST/LHR by the usual suspects.

The areas of Belgium that are close enough to LUX to consider it as a convenient gateway are sparsely populated. The denser areas are closer to BRU anyway. On the Eastern side of Luxembourg, the same applies to Germany (denser areas are closer to FRA/DUS, with perhaps the exception of the Saarbrücken area).

Going South into France, we have a decent population center around Metz/Thionville, but it's not clear that the demand is huge for a nonstop transatlantic connection (from what I see, the demand is mostly Europe/Mediterranean leisure, I am surprised by the number of people from that area who are ready to take the long drive to CRL to catch a cheap flight). For long haul connections, they benefit from a particularly convenient high speed rail link to Paris.

So, while I don't have any sort of potential demand analysis, at first sight it seems to me that the dynamics that could make a transatlantic route work are weak in Luxembourg. But, one should never say never...

Regards
BrusselsSouth
 
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RWA380
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Re: Flights between Luxembourg and America feasible?

Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:58 am

OzarkD9S wrote:
IMHO JFK maybe with a 321/757 aircraft. LUX just isn't that big of a market and the dynamics have changed so much since FI did the LUX-KEF-JFK thingy. Dare I say a BBJ with a split J/Y cabin "may" work but with the quick hops to LHR and the others I just don't see LUX-NA as fruit that needs to be picked. Many larger Euro-markets without NA nonstops I think it will be way down the road, if ever.


FI used to do the LUX-JFK & LUX-ORD thingy n/s on their DC-8's, skipping the KEF hub, it was the backpacker destination for starting a summer overseas. I have wondered why FI pulled out of LUX.

http://www.departedflights.com/LUX83p1.html
707 717 720 727-1/2 737-1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9 747-1/2/3/4 757-2/3 767-2/3/4 777-2/3 DC8 DC9 MD80/2/7/8 D10-1/3/4 M11 L10-1/2/5 A300/310/320
AA AC AQ AS BA BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HG HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN WP YS 8M
 
hz747300
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Re: Flights between Luxembourg and America feasible?

Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:43 am

I think the TK option would have been best. It could have been another frequency for IST-JFK or EWR via LUX and with 5th freedom rights on the LUX-JFK/EWR leg. My thought is that an A330 would do the trick, maybe 4x-5x to start.
Keep on truckin'...
 
TATLTALE
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Re: Flights between Luxembourg and America feasible?

Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:52 am

Agreeing with BrusselsSouth on this one: there is too much saturation in the market nearby and not enough of an orientation for business traffic toward NAmerican destinations (the Luxembourgish financial sector is heavily drawn toward Europe, slightly less so toward its periphery). For the little J traffic needed to e.g. NYC or Toronto, there are loads of quick connections to be made via established hubs.
The one thing LUX does have in its portfolio is a long history of package holidays, drawing from not only the country, but adjacent areas (Luxembourg province in Belgium, perhaps extending to Maastricht in NL, Pfalz in BRD, Lorraine and even Alsace): Luxair had a history in the 70s-mid90s of offering deals and advertising them throughout the region. This was also the case for FI - when I was a student in Strasbourg in the early 90s, I took several flights out of LUX to North America at rates that seemed terrific at the time, and which allowed me to stop in Iceland for no charge (this was when it was still exotic and far from the tourist radar!).
On point though, the odd CityBird venture in the late 90s was a sort of wetted dry lease (763 IIRC), with mostly H2 crews (all pilots and most cabin) and a few Luxair cabin crew. It didn't last very long due to pretty abysmal loads, this in spite of lots of publicity through the region (I was shuttling in and out of BRU and LUX by this point and recall they were pushing the flight through adverts). The only chance I see - and it's a very long shot - would be ULCC, but I doubt it could be done profitably with any present equip.
Oh stewardess, I speak jive
 
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seahawk
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Re: Flights between Luxembourg and America feasible?

Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:02 am

It is an airport that barely reached 3.000.000 pax for the first time in 2016. Luxembourg has only 600.000 residents and the catchment areas in France, Belgium and Germany are also not densely populated or close to other airports. A very hard business case.
 
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CARST
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Re: Flights between Luxembourg and America feasible?

Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:50 am

You know, if we wouldn't have to worry about fire in cargo aircraft so much, Cargolux could just operate a few 747-8is with the lower deck and main deck as cargo decks, while the (stretched) upper deck would be used for passengers.

Or they could just install a small pax cabin with 18 Y seats and 4 J seats on the upper deck of their 747-8Fs. That would be fun. Of course it won't happen due to regulations...
 
55flyer
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Re: Flights between Luxembourg and America feasible?

Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:59 am

RWA380 wrote:
OzarkD9S wrote:
IMHO JFK maybe with a 321/757 aircraft. LUX just isn't that big of a market and the dynamics have changed so much since FI did the LUX-KEF-JFK thingy. Dare I say a BBJ with a split J/Y cabin "may" work but with the quick hops to LHR and the others I just don't see LUX-NA as fruit that needs to be picked. Many larger Euro-markets without NA nonstops I think it will be way down the road, if ever.


FI used to do the LUX-JFK & LUX-ORD thingy n/s on their DC-8's, skipping the KEF hub, it was the backpacker destination for starting a summer overseas. I have wondered why FI pulled out of LUX.

http://www.departedflights.com/LUX83p1.html


And BWI-LUX. I believe the fare was 299 in the early 80s with free connecting bus service to CDG, FRA and some other place. I remember landing one very cold January day, descending the steps and a long walk to get the terminal. On the way back the flight continued to MCO with everyone clearing immigration at BWI, same rules applied as today.
 
ocracoke
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Re: Flights between Luxembourg and America feasible?

Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:25 am

RWA380 wrote:
OzarkD9S wrote:
IMHO JFK maybe with a 321/757 aircraft. LUX just isn't that big of a market and the dynamics have changed so much since FI did the LUX-KEF-JFK thingy. Dare I say a BBJ with a split J/Y cabin "may" work but with the quick hops to LHR and the others I just don't see LUX-NA as fruit that needs to be picked. Many larger Euro-markets without NA nonstops I think it will be way down the road, if ever.


FI used to do the LUX-JFK & LUX-ORD thingy n/s on their DC-8's, skipping the KEF hub, it was the backpacker destination for starting a summer overseas. I have wondered why FI pulled out of LUX.



I did a LUX-KEF-ORD connection way back in 1978 (still have the old bag tag.....somewhere). I believe it was called Loeftlieder Icelandic back then.

Can still remember arriving at LUX right at departure time, knowing we missed the flight and having to wait a week for the next one, but they held the plane for us, and we did our mad dash across the tarmac at LUX, as they parked way out there, not using a loading bridge.

The non-stop LUX-ORD must have started later than that, as I don't remember any other option but a stop over in KEF on Loeftlieder.
 
dergay
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Re: Flights between Luxembourg and America feasible?

Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:48 am

trexel94 wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
Cargolux already flies to america!


This is about the possibility of non-stop passenger service.


Sorry I won't reply as I also read the thread title!
Flown on A300,A310,A318,A319,A320,A321,A330,B707,B720,B727,B737,B747,B757,B767,L382,L1011,C5,DC-3,DC8,
 
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LotsaRunway
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Re: Flights between Luxembourg and America feasible?

Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:58 pm

In the late 1970's, Icelandic ran a 1-stop DC10 from JFK-KEF-LUX. I took it once and very few people got on or off at KEF, so it was really connecting JFK to LUX. I imagine, if priced right, there would be a market for USA-LUX.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Flights between Luxembourg and America feasible?

Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:11 pm

RWA380 wrote:
FI used to do the LUX-JFK & LUX-ORD thingy n/s on their DC-8's, skipping the KEF hub, it was the backpacker destination for starting a summer overseas. I have wondered why FI pulled out of LUX.

http://www.departedflights.com/LUX83p1.html


That was before the Single European Skies was created and each country had it's own aviation regulations and taxes. Luxembourg was about the most liberal in that. The fact that those flights operated out of Luxembourg had nothing to do with demand, they strictly had to do with regulations. With the introduction of Single European Skies all the local regulations were replaced by central European regulations making all of Europe equal. This meant that Luxembourg lost it's advantage of having the most liberal regulations.

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