klm617
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Re: MAN news - 2018

Sun Oct 28, 2018 2:19 am

Any chance we may see a DTW-MAN flight soon ?
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
User001
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Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2016 2:18 pm

Re: MAN news - 2018

Sun Oct 28, 2018 6:15 pm

klm617 wrote:
Any chance we may see a DTW-MAN flight soon ?


To be honest, I don’t see this route happening in the current VS/DL relationship format. Let me explain.

Currently, DL is leaving MAN under the care of VS, with the latter operating nothing smaller than the A332. The A332 (or any other VS aircraft) is quite a lot of plane to fill for MAN-DTW, even at 4 weekly or so.

What this route needs, is either a B757 or B767-300, and as said, DL are currently leaving MAN to VS. What needs to happen is for the VS/DL relationship at MAN to work in different ways.

Maybe have VS run the core, trunk or longer sector routes, such as ATL/LAX/MCO/LAS etc. Then DL, with some slightly smaller aircraft, run BOS (daily B757 versus the current 3 weekly A330), DTW and daresay a double daily JFK on B757/B767 in place of a daily B744 but I would hazard a guess a daily B744 is better cost wise than 2xB767/B757.

Unless the status quo changes, the only new routes I can see VS/DL launching is DEL, MIA and possible relaunch of SFO once the B787 issues are sorted, DEL could tie into The recently expanded Jet Airways codeshare and MIA for the cruise market now Virgin are venturing into that area.There are rumours of another US route but cannot say for confidentiality reasons at this time.

But, in summary, no, I don’t see DTW being launched just yet. I think it could be a good route, especially with ORD now gone, but alas, not yet.
 
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Channex757
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Re: MAN news - 2018

Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:35 pm

G-CPEU left tonight (30/10/18) as BY9247. This is the first of the final batch of TUI 757s to be withdrawn. The aircraft is routing MAN-DWC-XMN which will presumably be end of lease work.

We had a great year for 757s at MAN and 2019 should see the TUI fleet all retired. The first 738MAX is due any time now and hopefully we'll see it come through MAN.
 
Mullion
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Re: MAN news - 2018

Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:24 am

The TUI 737 MAX first base is due to be Manchester
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: MAN news - 2018

Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:22 pm

Channex757 wrote:
G-CPEU left tonight (30/10/18) as BY9247. This is the first of the final batch of TUI 757s to be withdrawn. The aircraft is routing MAN-DWC-XMN which will presumably be end of lease work.

We had a great year for 757s at MAN and 2019 should see the TUI fleet all retired. The first 738MAX is due any time now and hopefully we'll see it come through MAN.


If I'm not mistaken, that will just leave Icelandair, Jet2 and United as the regular 757 airlines left at MAN once TUI have withdrawn their fleet. Signs of the times, though not surprising considering they ended production 15 years ago and the worldwide fleet isn't getting any younger.
 
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Channex757
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Re: MAN news - 2018

Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:14 pm

Boeing74741R wrote:
Channex757 wrote:
G-CPEU left tonight (30/10/18) as BY9247. This is the first of the final batch of TUI 757s to be withdrawn. The aircraft is routing MAN-DWC-XMN which will presumably be end of lease work.

We had a great year for 757s at MAN and 2019 should see the TUI fleet all retired. The first 738MAX is due any time now and hopefully we'll see it come through MAN.


If I'm not mistaken, that will just leave Icelandair, Jet2 and United as the regular 757 airlines left at MAN once TUI have withdrawn their fleet. Signs of the times, though not surprising considering they ended production 15 years ago and the worldwide fleet isn't getting any younger.

We do have that resident FredEx but just what is happening with that is anyone's guess. United is also rumoured to want to put a 763 on the route.
 
klm617
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Re: MAN news - 2018

Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:59 pm

User001 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Any chance we may see a DTW-MAN flight soon ?


To be honest, I don’t see this route happening in the current VS/DL relationship format. Let me explain.

Currently, DL is leaving MAN under the care of VS, with the latter operating nothing smaller than the A332. The A332 (or any other VS aircraft) is quite a lot of plane to fill for MAN-DTW, even at 4 weekly or so.

What this route needs, is either a B757 or B767-300, and as said, DL are currently leaving MAN to VS. What needs to happen is for the VS/DL relationship at MAN to work in different ways.

Maybe have VS run the core, trunk or longer sector routes, such as ATL/LAX/MCO/LAS etc. Then DL, with some slightly smaller aircraft, run BOS (daily B757 versus the current 3 weekly A330), DTW and daresay a double daily JFK on B757/B767 in place of a daily B744 but I would hazard a guess a daily B744 is better cost wise than 2xB767/B757.

Unless the status quo changes, the only new routes I can see VS/DL launching is DEL, MIA and possible relaunch of SFO once the B787 issues are sorted, DEL could tie into The recently expanded Jet Airways codeshare and MIA for the cruise market now Virgin are venturing into that area.There are rumours of another US route but cannot say for confidentiality reasons at this time.

But, in summary, no, I don’t see DTW being launched just yet. I think it could be a good route, especially with ORD now gone, but alas, not yet.



So here are a couple more questions and by the way I agree with what your wrote here but why would Delta just leave the MAN market and let VS take it over being it's planes are all on the larger side to operate out of Manchester while Delta has a more diverse fleet. Would it not be better to have VS take over more of the LHR market and leave MAN to Delta with their 757s and 767s. Also what makes it better for VS to operate MAN-LAX and MAN-SFO and the like when there are no nonstop links to these cities anyway when they could put an aircraft on DTW-MAN plus gain a much wider audience while still providing service to these west coast destinations thru DTW. Flying MAN-LAX only get's them the O/D market on this route while a route to a hub gives them so much more accessibility.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
winginit
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Re: MAN news - 2018

Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:13 pm

klm617 wrote:
So here are a couple more questions and by the way I agree with what your wrote here but why would Delta just leave the MAN market and let VS take it over being it's planes are all on the larger side to operate out of Manchester while Delta has a more diverse fleet.


This has been discussed numerous times on the forum. MAN is overwhelmingly UK PoS, and that being the case brand familiarity makes it such that nonstop service between MAN and the US is better served by a UK airline. In only the past two years AA has cut JFKMAN and reduced ORDMAN, DL has cut JFKMAN, and UA has cut IADMAN. I think that pretty well proves the point.

klm617 wrote:
Would it not be better to have VS take over more of the LHR market and leave MAN to Delta with their 757s and 767s.


No. It wouldn't. VS' comparatively robust MAN operation makes it such that their crew and maintenance issues can be more easily catered to in MAN than if the route was served by DL.

klm617 wrote:
Also what makes it better for VS to operate MAN-LAX and MAN-SFO and the like when there are no nonstop links to these cities anyway when they could put an aircraft on DTW-MAN plus gain a much wider audience while still providing service to these west coast destinations thru DTW. Flying MAN-LAX only get's them the O/D market on this route while a route to a hub gives them so much more accessibility.


SFO and LAX are two of the largest local traffic airports in the United States (LAX is the largest). Flow over those two hubs is irrelevant given the local demand.
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: MAN news - 2018

Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:00 pm

klm617 wrote:
So here are a couple more questions and by the way I agree with what your wrote here but why would Delta just leave the MAN market and let VS take it over being it's planes are all on the larger side to operate out of Manchester while Delta has a more diverse fleet. Would it not be better to have VS take over more of the LHR market and leave MAN to Delta with their 757s and 767s. Also what makes it better for VS to operate MAN-LAX and MAN-SFO and the like when there are no nonstop links to these cities anyway when they could put an aircraft on DTW-MAN plus gain a much wider audience while still providing service to these west coast destinations thru DTW. Flying MAN-LAX only get's them the O/D market on this route while a route to a hub gives them so much more accessibility.


The Virgin brand has a much stronger presence in the UK than the Delta brand. Considering that a lot of the traffic on the US routes from MAN are passengers originating at MAN, it makes perfect sense. It’s also one reason why I think some of the calls on here that the Virgin brand will disappear from VS in favour of a so-called Delta UK is utter rubbish and unforeseeable in the short-to-medium term, or for as long as SRB is alive and has a stake in the airline via the Virgin Group.

The only plausible argument for Delta operating the NE USA routes is that they’re within range of their 757’s which might be better suited during the winter months to make routes such as BOS year-round. It was certainly the ideal aircraft when I did MAN-JFK with them in 2015, but it’ll be interesting to see the loads on the 747 when I do that route again in a few weeks. I’ll report back on the loadings if I remember to do so.

The reason why VS (and Thomas Cook) serve LAX and SFO is because they are untapped non-stop markets. I don’t buy that every new route must serve a hub. Not everyone wants to route through a hub and the fact that both destinations are continuing to be served indicates that the routes have so far been a success. Hopefully increased and/or year-round frequencies will follow in the coming years. Whilst DTW would be nice, VS already serve the DL hubs at JFK and ATL, so how many major destinations are there from DTW that aren’t also served via JFK/ATL?
 
klm617
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Re: MAN news - 2018

Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:22 am

winginit wrote:
klm617 wrote:
So here are a couple more questions and by the way I agree with what your wrote here but why would Delta just leave the MAN market and let VS take it over being it's planes are all on the larger side to operate out of Manchester while Delta has a more diverse fleet.


This has been discussed numerous times on the forum. MAN is overwhelmingly UK PoS, and that being the case brand familiarity makes it such that nonstop service between MAN and the US is better served by a UK airline. In only the past two years AA has cut JFKMAN and reduced ORDMAN, DL has cut JFKMAN, and UA has cut IADMAN. I think that pretty well proves the point.

klm617 wrote:
Would it not be better to have VS take over more of the LHR market and leave MAN to Delta with their 757s and 767s.


No. It wouldn't. VS' comparatively robust MAN operation makes it such that their crew and maintenance issues can be more easily catered to in MAN than if the route was served by DL.

klm617 wrote:
Also what makes it better for VS to operate MAN-LAX and MAN-SFO and the like when there are no nonstop links to these cities anyway when they could put an aircraft on DTW-MAN plus gain a much wider audience while still providing service to these west coast destinations thru DTW. Flying MAN-LAX only get's them the O/D market on this route while a route to a hub gives them so much more accessibility.


SFO and LAX are two of the largest local traffic airports in the United States (LAX is the largest). Flow over those two hubs is irrelevant given the local demand.


I was looking for unbiased objective opinions what others thought I already know your negative opinion of any growth.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
winginit
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Re: MAN news - 2018

Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:26 am

klm617 wrote:
winginit wrote:
klm617 wrote:
So here are a couple more questions and by the way I agree with what your wrote here but why would Delta just leave the MAN market and let VS take it over being it's planes are all on the larger side to operate out of Manchester while Delta has a more diverse fleet.


This has been discussed numerous times on the forum. MAN is overwhelmingly UK PoS, and that being the case brand familiarity makes it such that nonstop service between MAN and the US is better served by a UK airline. In only the past two years AA has cut JFKMAN and reduced ORDMAN, DL has cut JFKMAN, and UA has cut IADMAN. I think that pretty well proves the point.

klm617 wrote:
Would it not be better to have VS take over more of the LHR market and leave MAN to Delta with their 757s and 767s.


No. It wouldn't. VS' comparatively robust MAN operation makes it such that their crew and maintenance issues can be more easily catered to in MAN than if the route was served by DL.

klm617 wrote:
Also what makes it better for VS to operate MAN-LAX and MAN-SFO and the like when there are no nonstop links to these cities anyway when they could put an aircraft on DTW-MAN plus gain a much wider audience while still providing service to these west coast destinations thru DTW. Flying MAN-LAX only get's them the O/D market on this route while a route to a hub gives them so much more accessibility.


SFO and LAX are two of the largest local traffic airports in the United States (LAX is the largest). Flow over those two hubs is irrelevant given the local demand.


I was looking for unbiased objective opinions what others thought I already know your negative opinion of any growth.


What you were looking for is irrelevant. What you got were unbiased factual statements that answered your questions with supporting evidence. Read and respond to them - or don't. It's of no concern to me.
 
Mullion
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Re: MAN news - 2018

Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:25 am

Delta decided that VS are a better brand for Manchester if they want to operate any routes with their own metal they can but VS has a
very good name in UK and a much better service level than any of US operators
 
User001
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MAN news Nov 2018 onwards

Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:08 am

Seems like it’s time for a new thread. Summary of news so far:

-T2 redevelopment continues at a pace. Link bridge installed between the car park and the main T2 area.
-Jet2 will increase from 1 A330 to 3 A330 next summer. Also another B737 added to the base.
-Ryanair add 6 new routes next summer. Bordeaux, Marseille, Thessaloniki, Gothenburg, Nantes and Marrakesh
-EasyJet add 2 more aircraft and 7 routes this winter. Lisbon, Faro, Barcelona, Bordeaux, Innsbruck, Budapest and Lanzarote. 3 more aircraft and at least 7 more routes next summer.
-Thomas Cook add Montego Bay and increase several routes next summer. One more A330 and 1 more A321also added.
-TUI add 2 more aircraft and new routes to Aqaba, Muscat, Lamezia Terme and Rijeka.
-Ethiopian add 4 weekly Addis Ababa from 11th December
-Jet Airways add 5 weekly Mumbai from 5th November
-Virgin Atlantic add extra based aircraft. Increase Las Vegas, add Los Angeles. New codeshare with Jet.
-Air Canada Rouge increase Toronto to daily next summer.
-Iberia Express increase Madrid to 4 weekly.
-Qatar Airways increase Doha to 3 daily and introduce A350-900 on 2 of the daily flights
-Cathay Pacific to use A350-1000 on their flights this winter
-Hainan expected to formally announce Guangzhou. Was tentatively announced at World routes.
-Icelandair will remain daily next summer (usually daily winter 5 weekly summer)
-Norwegian increased Stavanger to 3 weekly and use B73M on ARN
-Finnair increase to A320/A321 ops instead of E190
-Saudia to use B77W on many flights instead of B789
-Etihad use B789 on one of 2 daily flights instead of B77W
-Emirates increase capacity on EK21/22 by 100 Seats per flight.

That’s all for now, let the new thread commence.
 
rutankrd
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Re: MAN news - 2018

Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:13 am

Virgin Holidays are a significant client of these services from Manchester; they ensure loads are high especially in the UK summer time. Use of Virgin branded aircraft gives the tourist the appearance of a seamless service .

Point to point sales are cream on the top , and network connections an added benefit.

Question through is the 744 which is rather premium lite too much capacity off season - well probably, however JFK especially is becoming less and less effective as a international- domestic transfer point these days and the amount of point to point leisure based regional traffic in the northern winter drops dramatically anyway .

Both United and American have pretty much closed down such international to domestic transfers over JFK, whilst Delta alliance and Virgin partners remain .

Use of the declining 757 might just eek out a daily service from Manchester over the bleak mid winter however cargo capacity would collapse and frankly is the soft product anything to write home about. Loads on a typical November, January or early February Tuesday have traditionally been dire.

Imho VS/DL have maybe made a reasonable calculation that combined with Virgin Holidays the larger aircraft with rather less than daily service in those months might well provide better returns both upstairs and down stairs, and with a combined alternate day operation via Atlanta many of the potential connection opportunities do remain .
The Orlando services are uniquely leisure based and pretty much stand alone though they have been hampered of late by UK education authorities restrictions imposed via fines on in term travel by parents and children.
 
AI
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Re: MAN news Nov 2018 onwards

Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:44 am

9W is in the news for its financial troubles. It doesn't look too good for it unless they can find someone to bail them out.
Any news from MAN whether the 9W service to BOM is definitely going ahead from 5th Nov?
 
User001
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Re: MAN news Nov 2018 onwards

Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:51 am

As of this time 9W still definitely going ahead. It’s only 4 days away.
 
rutankrd
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Re: MAN news Nov 2018 onwards

Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:27 pm

AI both Indian major carriers are broke however the Red and Orange one survives through political patronage, however can’t even afford to maintain a significant portion of their long haul fleet !

Jet do at least have a recovery plan if certain political bodies stop interfering in the legal process and allow JETlite to be reabsorbed. Still it’s India where corruption is the norm I suppose!

An additional burden on private Indian carriers international aspirations are archaic seating capacity limits rife within Indian bilateral treaties again designed to protect that certain Red and Orange carriers advantage

Manchester - Mumbai will prosper and fail on commercial grounds . Let’s see how long did that experiment of direct none stop Birmingham- Amritsar services last well just a few weeks I think and after extensive lobbying !
 
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Channex757
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Re: MAN news Nov 2018 onwards

Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:23 pm

Hainan might be problematic as their recent legal problems and 95% drop in profits could impact on launching new routes.
 
hohd
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Re: MAN news Nov 2018 onwards

Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:12 pm

MAN - BOM does not look good for Jet Airways, bad timings with very few connecting traffic hopes especially on the arrivals end at BOM. Jet should probably defer this until their problems are sorted out and come back with better timings. In comparison, DEL-Birmingham timings are much better and favourable for connections.
 
User001
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Re: MAN news Nov 2018 onwards

Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:19 pm

Hohd, this is the second time you have come into a thread and highlighted the supposedly poor times for the MAN Jet Airways flight, yet extolling the virtues of how ‘good’ the Air India BHX flights are (despite that flight being reduced in frequency so can’t be doing that well).

Wouldn’t happen to have an agenda, would you?
 
rutankrd
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Re: MAN news Nov 2018 onwards

Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:39 pm

User totally agreed

Btw within two hours of the very early morning arrival time the following connections are available
Bangkok This is a big one
Colombo
Singapore
Goa
Hong Kong
Cochin
Kolkata
Hyderabad
Chennai
Delhi
Bengalure

After 5am Jet start their extensive domestic services .

I therefore think HOHD has no idea where he’s talking about
Last edited by rutankrd on Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
rutankrd
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Re: MAN news Nov 2018 onwards

Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:49 pm

Oh and the fact something approaching 130,000 passengers journeys between Manchester and Mumbai via intermediate points each year suggest significant demand point to point without the benefit of connections imho !

Someone may be displaying a little jealousy that their regional continues to massively under perform ( perhaps just conjecture don’t know ) or they are a paid employee of the red and orange Indian carrier !
 
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seemyseems
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Re: MAN news Nov 2018 onwards

Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:53 pm

I heard Premiere Handling will be taking care of 9W, has anyone heard any different?
seemyseems in ATL
 
rutankrd
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QRe: MAN news Nov 2018 onwards

Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:18 pm

Same period 2 hours Air India connections from Birmingham

Dharamsala
Jammu
Bhubaneswar
Ranchi
Chandigarh
Siliguri
Gwalior
Gaya

None of the above commuters are likely to take many if any off of the Birmingham service or indeed off of the London services particularly regularly or in any number to be quite frank

More significant
Goa
Shanghai
Jaipur
Chennai
Colombo
Lucknow
Kathmandu

Then at 3-5 hours
Hyderabad
Sydney. Many other opportunities via the sand pit from Manchester
Melbourne see above
Singapore I think this may have a rather more direct service from Manchester
Bengalure - similar connections available on the Jet service
Bangkok - see above in fact time wise the JET service out strips the Delhi transit times by a margin
Mumbai - None stop now available

Just to compare really ain’t that much in it is there when weighted for quality and demand
 
BHXRunway15
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Re: MAN news Nov 2018 onwards

Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:25 pm

rutankrd wrote:

Manchester - Mumbai will prosper and fail on commercial grounds . Let’s see how long did that experiment of direct none stop Birmingham- Amritsar services last well just a few weeks I think and after extensive lobbying !


????????????? BHX - ATQ is direct 3 times a week and has been for quite while or do you know something I don't?

If anything you could say about this change is that it has ruined the BHX - DEL service as that is also now only 3 days a week direct making so onward connections quite difficult.

This is illustrated perfectly by the CAA stats for September with ATQ 6651 up 2% and DEL 6001 down 17%. At this point the combined was daily (4 DEL & 3 ATQ). - so to answer your question....it has lasted quite well but in my opinion it has come at a cost to the Delhi service which as we know has been reduced to 3 a week.


Pete
 
rutankrd
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Re: MAN news Nov 2018 onwardswest

Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:26 pm

Thanks for the update BHXRunway15 ; So it’s just the extra Saturday ATQ that was canned within a few weeks and now ATQ is first call on three flights whilst Delhi is now first call on just three flights.

That worse than I thought then !

BTW i am not criticising Air India themselves - they have been an on/off supporter of Birmingham for decades, however this Amritsar operation ( highly political) over the logical and financial benefits accrued from regular daily operations directly to their hub is sinonimus with all that wrong with Indian Aviation imho .

AI take note of the above directly from a Birmingham supporter . The garden does not appear to be bed of sweet smelling roses especially on the viable connections over the new Jet services at Manchester just because it’s an am departure gong east.

BTW the Jet service will have some extra presence in the UK via the Virgin codeshare and a small amount of connections going west certainly not available from Birmingham any time soon .
 
User001
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Re: MAN news Nov 2018 onwards

Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:49 pm

TUI to add Marsa Alam in Egypt from November 2019.
 
Scottiedog
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Re: MAN news - 2018

Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:26 pm

Manchester Statistics - September 2018

Destinations that are either new (no passengers since my records started in January 2005), or have not been served for a number of years - if the latter then the month and year of the last service is shown.

No new destinations were served in September 2018

Million passenger routes (Rolling annual figures)
Amsterdam - 1,027,698 passengers
Dubai - 1,022,769 passengers

Three domestic statistics are currently missing from the CAA report for September.
Belfast City, Inverness, Jersey are yet to provide figures
Total passengers for these routes in 2017 were 34,247.

Moving monthly and annual figures - based on CAA statistics/MAG statistics
Monthly passengers - 2,838,130 -1.08%
Annual Total - 16,575,335 -0.02%
Moving Annual Total - 27,879,010 -0.81%
Monthly Movements - 19,119 -3.52%
Annual Movements - 112,760 -2.33%
Moving Annual Movements - 200,131 -1.91%

Top 25 destinations - by passenger numbers
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Top 25 destinations with highest percentage increase.
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Figures for the European and long haul destinations that I consider to be the main points for our connecting traffic.
Image

Comparison of top 25 destinations - September 2008 versus September 2018
Image

Major changes to Domestic traffic
Image

Belfast City, Inverness, Jersey have not reported figures for September.

CAA statistics for September are provisional.
 
Scottiedog
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Re: MAN news - 2018

Sun Nov 04, 2018 8:03 pm

Where does the time go? Well here is issue 66 of PlaneTalk to whom full credit is given. Please do not copy to any other forum or thread.

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Now a couple of video clips - please click on the link above each item.

https://phasingmantp.vids.io/videos/e89ddeb71111eec460/lor-timelapse_1-30-mp4
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Now a couple of video clips - please use the click in the link above each item.

https://phasingmantp.vids.io/videos/e89ddeb71111eec460/lor-timelapse_1-30-mp4
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https://phasingmantp.vids.io/videos/a49ddeb71111e0c52c/mantp-t2-topping-out-drone-airside-mp4
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ukflyer1999
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:20 am

Re: MAN news - 2018

Mon Nov 05, 2018 11:46 am

El al announce intention to serve MAN 3 weekly with a 737-800 from May 2019

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... -may-2019/
 
DobboDobbo
Topic Author
Posts: 887
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Re: MAN news Nov 2018 onwards

Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:19 pm

FA9295 wrote:
https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/airlineroute/281350/el-al-proposes-manchester-service-resumption-from-late-may-2019/

El Al recently filed service into OAG for the resumption of it's Tel Aviv – Manchester flight, which ended in June 2001, and is now set to resume on May 26, 2019 according to the routesonline link. Service is currently planned to be 3x weekly on the 737-800...

EasyJet currently flies TLV-MAN 2x weekly, so seeing these two flights go head to head will be interesting...


Copied from the previous thread.
 
by738
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Re: MAN news Nov 2018 onwards

Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:58 pm

WestJet Canada UK announcement pending... Anything for MAN I wonder?
 
DobboDobbo
Topic Author
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Re: MAN news Nov 2018 onwards

Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:58 pm

DobboDobbo wrote:
It seems the expanded UK-China bilateral (+50 new weekly return flights) excludes London routes.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... es-444675/



Interesting that, since the execution of this new bilateral, which claimed to exclude London routes, something like 31 of the 50 new frequencies have, in fact, been taken up by London routes (despite the claims that London was excluded).

I think the only non-London route using the bilateral is the HU PEK-EDI-DUB / PEK-DUB-EDI service (4x weekly).

In contrast, and by way of example: Air China has moved its 3 weekly CTU-LGW to a 5 weekly CTU-LHR; andCZ intends to increase CAN-LHR from 7 to 13 weekly and add 5 weekly DXG-LHR.

There is obviously a strong business case for London services - it is the largest air system in the world and that speaks for its self. However, the apparent slight of hand at UK government level (claiming something benefits the “regions” when in fact it benefits only London) is typical of the lack of support for anywhere in theUK that is “not London”. This is becoming an increasing problem for the UK and is not limited to the civil aviation sector.

It also shows the claim that LHR is “full” to be nothing more than a sham. LHR management now has a track record, earned over a number of years, of claiming to be “full” whenever the question of expansion is raised. However, whenever slots are required for a new routes or frequencies to China, or the USA, or Africa, or Asia, slots are miraculously found. This duplicity is apparently ignored by the UK government, who appears to believe LHR remains an asset owned by the UK government, when it is a privately owned enterprise.

For so long as the UK government and LHR are allowed to continue to act like one is a limb of the other (and vice versa) I don’t see how the industry can be viewed as anything other than being ran for the benefit of LHR shareholders...
 
ZuluTime
Posts: 258
Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 6:23 pm

Re: MAN news Nov 2018 onwards

Mon Nov 05, 2018 11:23 pm

Dobbo, please don't turn this into another "the world unites against Manchester" thread. The reality is that airlines including CZ at LHR have acquired slots on the open market for their services just as anyone could do. The statement about slots appearing whenever they are needed simply isn't true and there remain a significant number of carriers on the LHR waiting list for slots including jetBlue, Xiamen, Shenzen, Air China, Hong Kong Airlines and others.

If those carriers saw a clear demand for Manchester services, there is nothing stopping them from going ahead tomorrow. That isn't the UK Government's fault. Can we stop the "poor downtrodden Manchester" rhetoric then? The facts just don't support the argument you're pushing.
 
SeanM1997
Posts: 292
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:27 pm

Re: MAN news Nov 2018 onwards

Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:18 am

DobboDobbo wrote:
DobboDobbo wrote:
It seems the expanded UK-China bilateral (+50 new weekly return flights) excludes London routes.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... es-444675/



Interesting that, since the execution of this new bilateral, which claimed to exclude London routes, something like 31 of the 50 new frequencies have, in fact, been taken up by London routes (despite the claims that London was excluded).

I think the only non-London route using the bilateral is the HU PEK-EDI-DUB / PEK-DUB-EDI service (4x weekly).

In contrast, and by way of example: Air China has moved its 3 weekly CTU-LGW to a 5 weekly CTU-LHR; andCZ intends to increase CAN-LHR from 7 to 13 weekly and add 5 weekly DXG-LHR.

There is obviously a strong business case for London services - it is the largest air system in the world and that speaks for its self. However, the apparent slight of hand at UK government level (claiming something benefits the “regions” when in fact it benefits only London) is typical of the lack of support for anywhere in theUK that is “not London”. This is becoming an increasing problem for the UK and is not limited to the civil aviation sector.

It also shows the claim that LHR is “full” to be nothing more than a sham. LHR management now has a track record, earned over a number of years, of claiming to be “full” whenever the question of expansion is raised. However, whenever slots are required for a new routes or frequencies to China, or the USA, or Africa, or Asia, slots are miraculously found. This duplicity is apparently ignored by the UK government, who appears to believe LHR remains an asset owned by the UK government, when it is a privately owned enterprise.

For so long as the UK government and LHR are allowed to continue to act like one is a limb of the other (and vice versa) I don’t see how the industry can be viewed as anything other than being ran for the benefit of LHR shareholders...


Have you got a source of CTU moving to LHR operating 5x weekly, CZ increasing to 13x weekly to CAN and a new 5x weekly DXG to LHR route? I've yet to see nothing so far except speculation
 
User avatar
SQ22
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Re: MAN news - 2018

Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:55 pm

The year is not over yet, so O have merged the thread into the 2018 thread. Feel free to open a new one at the end of this year.
 
Internaute
Posts: 17
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Re: MAN news - 2018

Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:25 pm

A question on the terminal transformation for those in the know.

The (greatly appreciated!) updates on the expanded T2 are pretty detailled.

Is there any sign yet of any carrier lounges? I don’t mean Escape etc....rather an LH or SkyTeam or other.

Thanks...
 
User avatar
seemyseems
Posts: 438
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Re: MAN news - 2018

Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:23 pm

Internaute wrote:
A question on the terminal transformation for those in the know.

The (greatly appreciated!) updates on the expanded T2 are pretty detailled.

Is there any sign yet of any carrier lounges? I don’t mean Escape etc....rather an LH or SkyTeam or other.

Thanks...


I have too thought about this. I wonder if VS will open a Clubhouse down the line?
seemyseems in ATL
 
User001
Posts: 927
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2016 2:18 pm

Re: MAN news - 2018

Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:18 pm

Etihad to use the B787-10 on EY15/16 from 8th December until 1st Jan.
 
DobboDobbo
Topic Author
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Re: MAN news - 2018

Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:20 pm

Hi Zulu

Apologies for the slow reply.

I agree that this shouldn’t be a “the world is against Manchester” thread, chiefly because my post does not push that argument. It is intended to (and in my view does) illustrate that “the UK is run for the benefit of London”. These are two different issues that I do not seek to conflate.

As you may be aware, Chinese regions at the economic periphery tend to subsidise local airlines on prestige routes that are otherwise unviable. These, quite understandably, gravitate towards the likes of New York, Paris and of course London. The UK government sought to funnel these into the UK regions with a “non London” expansion to the bilateral - which it announced with significant fanfare. However, it has quietly permitted airlines to serve “London” routes on the bilateral frequencies reserved for “non London”. That volte face is the UK government’s decision.

As for availability of LHR slots, there are plenty of examples (generally of commercially robust routes) where hitherto unused or underused slots miraculously appear despite claims LHR is full.

As you say, I don’t want this thread going down this route so I’ll leave it there and get us back on topic with my next post.
 
DobboDobbo
Topic Author
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Re: MAN news - 2018

Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:25 pm

The document linked below has been produced as part of the PR drive behind the new BOM-MAN route. It contains some interesting snippets of information:

“Jet Airways will initially operate five days a week between Mumbai and Manchester Airport, potentially connecting in excess of 10,000 passengers per month.”

“This is likely to lead to increases in service frequency and to the introduction of new direct routes to other parts of India, such as a potential Manchester-Delhi route, a journey that is already being made indirectly by 170,000 passengers.”

“Manchester to Mumbai 130,000 Passengers annually”

https://www.investinmanchester.com/dbim ... tunity.pdf
 
ZuluTime
Posts: 258
Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 6:23 pm

Re: MAN news - 2018

Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:41 am

Dobbo, thank you for the reasoned reply. It doesn't detract from the core point though. If Tianjin Airlines, Beijing Capital and others either could not get slots at LHR or the bilateral agreement prevented them from serving LHR, do you really believe they would be flying to Manchester instead? I don't think that's remotely likely. If they couldn't serve LON, I believe the likelihood is that they wouldn't be in the UK market, full stop.

It is the market, and not any factor of UK government policy, which is determining this. MAN has limited services to China. That is not because airlines like Tianjin have all of their aircraft tied up serving LHR. They have shown no clear interest - such as slot applications - in flying to MAN at any time.

In terms of LHR slots, you can find details of all slot trades completed online here: https://www.acl-uk.org/completed-trades/

China Southern bought their morning slots at LHR through a deal with SAS to add the second daily CAN, and the new routes to Sanya and Wuhan are served as part of the previous slots used for Guangzhou services.

JAL has bought slots for its new Haneda operation at LHR from South African.

American is launching another daily service next summer and has bought slots from SAS.

Philippines got slots at LHR as VS had ceased flying to Accra and returned those slots, which PR was then given by the slot coordinator.

The last new slots to be created through capacity improvements were those given to Vietnam Airlines in the morning and Tianjin for the evening. Two sets a day. It's not a concerted Government strategy to prioritise LHR growth over MAN or any other regions, honestly it's not. MAN-China services need to stand or fall on their own feet because they're viable - not because they exist through some interventionist Government policy to divert traffic away from London. That's been tried before - remember the Traffic Distribution Rules - which led to some crazy outcomes and them eventually being abandoned.
 
Mullion
Posts: 51
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:02 am

Re: MAN news - 2018

Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:05 am

The Hainan to Manchester routed before they even started to London not because they couldn`t get slots for Heathrow but because the business is there in Manchester, also look at how Cathay is doing.
 
DobboDobbo
Topic Author
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Re: MAN news - 2018

Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:20 pm

Hi Zulu

Thank you for the reply.

I’m sorry, but in relation to the first issue, you are arguing against a point I am not making. I hope this post clarifies any uncertainty that may exist as to what I’m saying.

I’m not arguing that these airlines would, as a
consequence if they couldn’t get into LHR, serve MAN (or anywhere else in the UK). For the reasons set out in the next paragraph, I don’t think they would. In all circumstances, it is not a binary decision, and I think we can agree on that. The point I’ve made is that in order to serve LHR, these Chinese airlines are being permitted to make use of bilateral frequencies that the UK government expressly stated, and publicised, as being for “non London” services only. This change of policy is plainly a matter of UK government policy, and one which benefits London. This is a different point from relative market strengths of LHR and MAN which are very very different.

I am arguing that peripheral Chinese regions subsidise services to “prestige” destinations, of which London is one beneficiary. That is not the market deciding a service is viable, it is local Chinese government intervening to support services to London amongst others. The central fact is that many of these “niche” Chinese routes to London exist or are planned because of local Chinese government intervention, not necessarily because of commercial merit. This is obviously not a UK government policy, but it does benefit London. If these carriers were unable to serve London for any reason (e.g. slots, bilateral) local government support would - understandably - likely not be available for a MAN service, but perhaps would be available for a service to the likes of Paris or New York.

I think most people are aware of slot trading, and many of the examples you have given relate to discontinued services that were no longer commercially viable at LHR. For example, I suspect SAS have been undercut by the likes of Ryanair and EasyJet from STN and LGW respectively. Rather than hand them back, they can realise value to their business by selling or leasing them. For similar commercial reasons, there will also be slot sitting, mostly from BA, which is difficult to track.

Ultimately, if slots are really wanted, recent history (including but not limited to the examples you have cited) suggests that they are available.

Hope this clarifies my view.
 
DobboDobbo
Topic Author
Posts: 887
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:02 am

Re: MAN news - 2018

Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:28 pm

seemyseems wrote:
Internaute wrote:
A question on the terminal transformation for those in the know.

The (greatly appreciated!) updates on the expanded T2 are pretty detailled.

Is there any sign yet of any carrier lounges? I don’t mean Escape etc....rather an LH or SkyTeam or other.

Thanks...


I have too thought about this. I wonder if VS will open a Clubhouse down the line?


I have no definitive information, so this is little more than informed speculation.

1 - I expect MAG will have a 1903 lounge as well as retaining the escape/aspire lounges.

2 - I expect EK will have a lounge above the second pier to be built (I expect this to be named pier C) which contains the code F gates.

3 - if VS’s current trajectory continues, I expect to see a clubhouse.

4 - assuming BA move over, I think we will see a BA lounge.

Thereafter, I think we get into the realms of less informed speculation. For example, I expect MAN thought EY would have a lounge, that is now unlikely. QR is possible, but I really don’t know. I could see an alliance based lounge structure, but who knows.

If SQ add more frequencies, or another transit stop, there would be a case for a dedicated lounge and/or transfer facility. Ditto with CX.
 
FlyingColours
Posts: 2320
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 3:13 am

Re: MAN news - 2018

Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:50 pm

A BA Lounge? what for the shuttle? That would seem very underused unless other OneWorld airlines can use it, which I'd gather would be the case.

I was chatting to one of the girls in the VS "V-Room" earlier in the year and she did say that they should be having a proper lounge along with a new V-Room when T2 is complete, whether there's a misunderstanding or not remains to be seen but given how you can only go in the V-Room if you are a Virgin Holidays customer and not an out & out VS passenger it does sound likely to be on the cards :)

Phil
FlyingColours
Lifes a train racing towards you, now you can either run away or grab a chair & a beer and watch it come - Phil
 
Armodeen
Posts: 1183
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:17 am

Re: MAN news - 2018

Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:37 pm

The current lounges uses by VS and QR in T2 are a joke. Let’s hope they correct that.

BA has a lounge now for the shuttle. If it was so inconsequential then why didn’t they close it when longhaul stopped? I can certainly see a OneWorld/IAG lounge.
 
hohd
Posts: 768
Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 1:03 am

Re: MAN news - 2018

Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:29 pm

Regarding 9W service to MAN, yes 9W is hoping for the O & D customers primarily, but for all the one stop connecting passengers, there are other airlines with more convenient connections. I have travelled only once DEL-BHX, good timing, but my brother lives in MAN area, and as soon as he saw the arrival timings, he said forget this and he does this route 4 to 6 times a year. Not saying that there is little traffic on MAN-BOM, all I am saying is the timings can be tweaked. Why should Indian carriers continue to penalize Indians with ungodly departures and arrivals, foreign carriers are already doing this.
 
DobboDobbo
Topic Author
Posts: 887
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:02 am

Re: MAN news - 2018

Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:13 pm

Armodeen wrote:
The current lounges uses by VS and QR in T2 are a joke. Let’s hope they correct that.

BA has a lounge now for the shuttle. If it was so inconsequential then why didn’t they close it when longhaul stopped? I can certainly see a OneWorld/IAG lounge.


I think the only airlines who I think are more likely than not to have their own lounge in the new T2, are BA, VS, EK, QR. An outside bet would include EY, SQ, CX, LH, KL. However, the 1903 concept appears to be a successful one and that is likely to be attractive to airlines with around a daily service.

I think it would be more productive for airline alliances to pool resources and share a more expansive facility. I think this would work particularly well for star alliance, where a facility would be well used by SQ, UA, ET, TK, LH Group, TAP, FI, RV, SAS - and possibly TG, AI and LOT in the near future.
 
8herveg
Posts: 1382
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 2:01 am

Re: MAN news - 2018

Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:53 am

I think we could see lounges as follows:

Oneworld/IAG - approx 25 flights a day (including BA and QR)
Skyteam - approx 8-9 flights a day
Star Alliance - approx 30 flights a day

British Airways - approx 8 flights a day
Emirates - 3 flights a day
Qatar Airways - 2-3 flights a day
Virgin Atlantic - up to 6 flights a day (from next year)

Escape Lounge - for non-aligned airlines

So that's 8 lounges.

Reasonable?

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