Luftymatt
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Re: MAN news - 2018

Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:50 am

The last time CX served MAN they had their own lounge, it would be great if they brought it back.
chase the sun
 
8herveg
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Re: MAN news - 2018

Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:52 am

Luftymatt wrote:
The last time CX served MAN they had their own lounge, it would be great if they brought it back.


Would there be any point/justification for an airline to invest in a lounge, just for 1 flight a day? Seems like a lot of money...
 
Luftymatt
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Re: MAN news - 2018

Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:47 am

8herveg wrote:
Luftymatt wrote:
The last time CX served MAN they had their own lounge, it would be great if they brought it back.


Would there be any point/justification for an airline to invest in a lounge, just for 1 flight a day? Seems like a lot of money...

It was one flight a day last time around, but with less passengers as it went via AMS. I suppose that could be the reason, but it would seem strange if it was considering the last time around they did it.
chase the sun
 
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seemyseems
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Re: MAN news - 2018

Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:49 am

Luftymatt wrote:
The last time CX served MAN they had their own lounge, it would be great if they brought it back.


I had no idea CX had their own lounge, where about was it?
seemyseems in ATL
 
DobboDobbo
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Re: MAN news - 2018

Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:52 pm

8herveg wrote:
Luftymatt wrote:
The last time CX served MAN they had their own lounge, it would be great if they brought it back.


Would there be any point/justification for an airline to invest in a lounge, just for 1 flight a day? Seems like a lot of money...


They filed a shadow schedule for (I think) 11x weekly a few months back. I agree that a daily A350 is not enough for a dedicated lounge, but I don’t know what the tipping point (even for a small lounge) to make it worthwhile would be.

Ultimately, I think airlines like CX and SQ would be better off pooling resources within their alliance and getting a larger and better shared facility.
 
8herveg
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Re: MAN news - 2018

Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:00 pm

DobboDobbo wrote:
8herveg wrote:
Luftymatt wrote:
The last time CX served MAN they had their own lounge, it would be great if they brought it back.


Would there be any point/justification for an airline to invest in a lounge, just for 1 flight a day? Seems like a lot of money...


They filed a shadow schedule for (I think) 11x weekly a few months back. I agree that a daily A350 is not enough for a dedicated lounge, but I don’t know what the tipping point (even for a small lounge) to make it worthwhile would be.

Ultimately, I think airlines like CX and SQ would be better off pooling resources within their alliance and getting a larger and better shared facility.


I agree re. airlines pooling resources together. I thought that was the whole point of alliances - to pool their resources together. Especially for regional airports like MAN where there aren't as many flights per day from a single airline. EK I can understand having a dedicated lounge as there's 3 x A380's a day! But anything less than 3 flights per day, IMO, is wasted for their own dedicated lounge.

I think Oneworld, Skyteam and Star Alliance should be building more alliance lounges across the globe.
 
BrianDromey
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Re: MAN news - 2018

Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:53 pm

8herveg wrote:
I think we could see lounges as follows:

Oneworld/IAG - approx 25 flights a day (including BA and QR)
Skyteam - approx 8-9 flights a day
Star Alliance - approx 30 flights a day

British Airways - approx 8 flights a day
Emirates - 3 flights a day
Qatar Airways - 2-3 flights a day
Virgin Atlantic - up to 6 flights a day (from next year)
Escape Lounge - for non-aligned airlines
So that's 8 lounges.
Reasonable?


I thought 8 lounges sounded like a lot, but you might be right. From the airlines pint of view, why build an outstation lounge when you can have a partner build and operate one for you? In the case of oneworld it seems sensible to have BA build and operate the lounge, it probably has potential for decent income from other potential users such as AA, IB, CX, AY, QR and maybe EI.

Also, it's far from clear what will happen to T1 in the medium term, so the current Escape, EK, Aspire and EY spaces may be available for quite a while yet.

I see the lounge list a little differently,
British Airways (I think this is all but confirmed and why the current lounge looks so tired)
Aspire ± Club Aspire
Escape ± 1903 (Almost certain given that 1903 at T1 is the former EY lounge)
v-Room
Virgin Atlantic/Delta
7 lounges would be a lot to fit in a single pier and could lead to small, compromised spaces, but I imagine that the current lounge spaces in T2 itself could be reconfigured and there should be enough space.
 
8herveg
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Re: MAN news - 2018

Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:58 pm

BrianDromey wrote:
8herveg wrote:
I think we could see lounges as follows:

Oneworld/IAG - approx 25 flights a day (including BA and QR)
Skyteam - approx 8-9 flights a day
Star Alliance - approx 30 flights a day

British Airways - approx 8 flights a day
Emirates - 3 flights a day
Qatar Airways - 2-3 flights a day
Virgin Atlantic - up to 6 flights a day (from next year)
Escape Lounge - for non-aligned airlines
So that's 8 lounges.
Reasonable?


I thought 8 lounges sounded like a lot, but you might be right. From the airlines pint of view, why build an outstation lounge when you can have a partner build and operate one for you? In the case of oneworld it seems sensible to have BA build and operate the lounge, it probably has potential for decent income from other potential users such as AA, IB, CX, AY, QR and maybe EI.

Also, it's far from clear what will happen to T1 in the medium term, so the current Escape, EK, Aspire and EY spaces may be available for quite a while yet.

I see the lounge list a little differently,
British Airways (I think this is all but confirmed and why the current lounge looks so tired)
Aspire ± Club Aspire
Escape ± 1903 (Almost certain given that 1903 at T1 is the former EY lounge)
v-Room
Virgin Atlantic/Delta
7 lounges would be a lot to fit in a single pier and could lead to small, compromised spaces, but I imagine that the current lounge spaces in T2 itself could be reconfigured and there should be enough space.


Is it confirmed though, that all the lounges would only go into 1 pier? Surely they'd spread them out according to which pier/gates the airlines would use? For example, I heard Star Alliance would be going into the pier which is currently being built?
 
DobboDobbo
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Re: MAN news - 2018

Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:08 pm

There is space for lounges in the main building (above the airside departure lounge/shopping area) and at least one of the piers is planned to have an extra floor with lounges (I suspect no more than 2/3) on the top floor.
 
Internaute
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Re: MAN news - 2018

Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:19 pm

DobboDobbo wrote:
There is space for lounges in the main building (above the airside departure lounge/shopping area) and at least one of the piers is planned to have an extra floor with lounges (I suspect no more than 2/3) on the top floor.


Thanks all - the conjecture is interesting.

I guess my point, however, was that given the detailed plans available on the terminal transformation, there would be specific info on lounges. Dubbo here suggests 2-3.

VS is the obvious candidate - not exactly a hub at MAN since VS offer mostly point to point at the UK end, but with (as quoted above) up to 6 daily departures on wide bodies, a genuine Clubhouse would seem warranted. Especially given that VS are prone to opening lounges where in many of their outstations with only 1/2 daily flights. It's not great that MAN passengers to BOS/LAX/JFK get a Clubhouse on their way back but not when leaving MAN.

SkyTeam is related but complex. They have recently opened a few genuine "alliance" lounges branded as SkyTeam but mostly at global hubs. One at MAN is unlikely. In fact I count only 4 SkyTeam carriers at MAN (5 if DL are included). Surely DL/AF/KL passengers could use a VS Clubhouse? Saudi is unlikely to feel left out of this plan.

Similarly Star - they have some alliance branded lounges but only in major hubs. Again very unlikely MAN will get one of these. If a Star lounge happens, it'll surely be a airline lounge (LH?) with open *A access.

Star have a huge presence at MAN with 13 (?) operating carriers. This would seem the most obvious new lounge option from a volume perspective.

OneWorld - surely this'll be a BA lounge. Whether they'll produce something comparable to CX's or QR's international offerings is doubtful but at least CX/QR/AA/AY passengers will have an OK experience.

Non-aligned - EY has outsourced their lounge hence unlikely.

The two qualifiers here are:
- Which carriers move to the new T2X
- What does MAN think? Do they make enough money from their owned lounges to want to actively discourage airline lounges?
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: MAN news - 2018

Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:50 am

Internaute wrote:
- What does MAN think? Do they make enough money from their owned lounges to want to actively discourage airline lounges?


It depends what MAN sees as more important: keeping an airline happy (particularly one that are the sole airline on a particular long-haul route(s)) or insisting their Business/First Class passengers use lounges that aren't what you expect to see at other airports such as LHR or abroad.

In the case of VS, I'd say if a Clubhouse happens then it's a further sign of their intent at MAN. I read regularly of how some passengers torn between MAN and LHR when flying Upper Class bemoan the lack of Clubhouse at MAN as they see it as part of the overall experience. Although not having a Clubhouse isn't a deal breaker for me, I can see where they are coming from if it makes no odds for them to fly from either MAN or LHR.
 
DobboDobbo
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Re: MAN news - 2018

Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:37 am

Hi Internaute - agreed the conjecture is an interesting debate.

Internaute wrote:
I guess my point, however, was that given the detailed plans available on the terminal transformation, there would be specific info on lounges. Dubbo here suggests 2-3.


I think there is space on the upper level of Pier C for 2/3 lounges. There will also be space within the new part of the main terminal building for lounges (I don't know how much space) as well as whatever space is in the old part of the main terminal building (which is apparently being renovated but to what extent we don't know). Subject to size, I suspect there will be space for at least 4 lounges in the new part of the main terminal building in addition to whatever space remains in the old building.

Internaute wrote:
VS is the obvious candidate - not exactly a hub at MAN since VS offer mostly point to point at the UK end, but with (as quoted above) up to 6 daily departures on wide bodies, a genuine Clubhouse would seem warranted. Especially given that VS are prone to opening lounges where in many of their outstations with only 1/2 daily flights. It's not great that MAN passengers to BOS/LAX/JFK get a Clubhouse on their way back but not when leaving MAN.

SkyTeam is related but complex. They have recently opened a few genuine "alliance" lounges branded as SkyTeam but mostly at global hubs. One at MAN is unlikely. In fact I count only 4 SkyTeam carriers at MAN (5 if DL are included). Surely DL/AF/KL passengers could use a VS Clubhouse? Saudi is unlikely to feel left out of this plan.


I'd expect VS to improve their lounge - to what extent depends on their ultimate plans for MAN. They really need to balance their summer/winter schedules somehow, at the same time as continuing to increase summer capacity. DEL has been speculated and I expect they will want to develop LAX and BOS over the next couple of years before expanding the US portfolio further. I don't think we'll get a clear picture until the B789 issues are resolved.

Internaute wrote:
Similarly Star - they have some alliance branded lounges but only in major hubs. Again very unlikely MAN will get one of these. If a Star lounge happens, it'll surely be a airline lounge (LH?) with open *A access.
Star have a huge presence at MAN with 13 (?) operating carriers. This would seem the most obvious new lounge option from a volume perspective.


I think there is scope for a major star investment, and you're right that an LH group lounge could "anchor" this as they are understood to be moving over. That would still leave SQ, UA, TK, ET, TAP, RV (possibly others in future) as star members without a facility. Of these SQ and TK seem the most likely to go it alone (TK presumably looking to drive growth through their new hub are likely to expand services and SQ may look at expanding the existing SIN/IAH transfer and/or add another transit route) but is this enough to make a major investment? I don't know.

Internaute wrote:
OneWorld - surely this'll be a BA lounge. Whether they'll produce something comparable to CX's or QR's international offerings is doubtful but at least CX/QR/AA/AY passengers will have an OK experience.


Agreed there will be a BA lounge, quite whose passengers will be welcome to use it is less certain in my view.

Internaute wrote:
- Which carriers move to the new T2X



My best guess is EK, EY, LH group, TK, SAS, BA, AK/KLM will be in there by 2021. Thereafter it depends what happens with T1/T3.
 
Scottiedog
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Re: MAN news - 2018

Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:41 am

I'm not sure about your designation of Pier C on Terminal 2 with upper deck lounges. You have to remember that Pier C already exists on Terminal 1 and I suspect that the Terminal 2 piers may just be referred to by numbers - so, if I've read your post correctly then your pier will actually be Pier 3.
 
David_itl
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Re: MAN news - 2018

Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:24 am

6% rise in October to over 2.5 million passengers. Moving annual total zipped past 28 million


https://www.thebusinessdesk.com/northwest/news/2032161-manchester-airport-soars-to-28-million-passengers
 
User001
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Re: MAN news - 2018

Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:34 pm

Vueling increase BCN-MAN to 10 weekly from 31st March. There will be 2 flights on Tue/Thu/Sat.
 
DobboDobbo
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Re: MAN news - 2018

Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:25 pm

Scottiedog wrote:
I'm not sure about your designation of Pier C on Terminal 2 with upper deck lounges. You have to remember that Pier C already exists on Terminal 1 and I suspect that the Terminal 2 piers may just be referred to by numbers - so, if I've read your post correctly then your pier will actually be Pier 3.


Hi scottiedog!

My theory is based upon some photos taken inside the new pier 1, where each of the gates is given the prefix “A”.

From this i have surmised that what we currently know as “Pier 1” will contain the “A gates”, with “Pier 2”’containing the “B gates” and so on. I have taken that one step further to label the piers themselves as “Pier A”, “Pier B”, and “Pier C” etc.

As you’ve noted (and i forgot) there is a Pier C in terminal 1. Of course this could be renamed, or even demolished, but that is some time away.

In short - it is my partially informed speculation and nothing more!
 
DobboDobbo
Topic Author
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Re: MAN news - 2018

Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:27 pm

David_itl wrote:
6% rise in October to over 2.5 million passengers. Moving annual total zipped past 28 million


https://www.thebusinessdesk.com/northwest/news/2032161-manchester-airport-soars-to-28-million-passengers


If they can keep growth at 5% and above (which should be possible barring another Monarch style collapse) 2019 should be a positive year. By 2020, hopefully, the new terminal facilities (not just pier 1/A) should start to come online and facilitate further growth.
 
DobboDobbo
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Re: MAN news - 2018

Sat Nov 17, 2018 9:21 pm

Reported elsewhere that Brussels Airlines and Eurowings move from T1 to T2 from 31 March. This is consistent with the LH group moving en masse from T1 to T2.

Also, Jet2 are moving more of their operation (but not all) from T1 to T2. Clears space for the EasyJet expansion.
 
David_itl
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Re: MAN news - 2018

Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:08 am

Interesting couple of movements yesterday. Am124 UR82007 operated MXP-MAN-LPA and KLM sent 777 PH-BVF for attention with Air Livery. Now what were people saying about KLM long-haul aircraft ignoring MAN?!

The Evening News has reported that Puerto Vallarta in Mexico is getting extra services in winter 2019 and summer 2020, and that Marsa Alam in Egypt is a new addition with a weekly service in winter 2019

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/trips-and-breaks/new-long-haul-flight-manchester-15431298
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: MAN news - 2018

Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:28 am

DobboDobbo wrote:
Reported elsewhere that Brussels Airlines and Eurowings move from T1 to T2 from 31 March. This is consistent with the LH group moving en masse from T1 to T2.

Also, Jet2 are moving more of their operation (but not all) from T1 to T2. Clears space for the EasyJet expansion.


So in the space of just over 5 years, Brussels Airlines have moved from T3 to T1 and soon to T2.

I presume the Jet2 move has been made possible with the first phase of T2's expansion nearly completed?
 
DobboDobbo
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Re: MAN news - 2018

Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:17 pm

Boeing74741R wrote:
I presume the Jet2 move has been made possible with the first phase of T2's expansion nearly completed?


I assume so.

By S19 the expansion is mostly related to new stands, and not new terminal capacity. I think most of this redeployment is making use of spare capacity at T2 following the demise of Monarch, whilst creating space at T1. The new terminal processing capacity might be several years down the track as, once the new part of the terminal building opens, the old part of the terminal building closes for rennovation.
 
User001
Posts: 924
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Re: MAN news - 2018

Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:02 pm

Ryanair to try again on MAN-KBP. This time a 2 weekly flight on Monday and Friday starting 1st April. Flights are already bookable.
 
Danfearn77
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Re: MAN news - 2018

Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:27 pm

User001 wrote:
Ryanair to try again on MAN-KBP. This time a 2 weekly flight on Monday and Friday starting 1st April. Flights are already bookable.


Probably discussed at the time but I must have missed it, what stopped them last time? They announced it and I was looking at booking flights etc, next minute they were gone!
Eagles may soar high, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines!
 
User001
Posts: 924
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Re: MAN news - 2018

Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:36 pm

They had a spat with the government in Ukraine, and the fact Ukraine International Air were insisting on a ‘compensation package’ due to having to lower fares to meet the competition. Ryanair then refused to serve Ukraine.

Since then however, all has been sorted and Ryanair have already started a few routes this winter.

Great to see the Ukraine back on our boards. I believe last time Ryanair put the MAN flights on sale, UKIA also publicly stated they would start Manchester (but then co incidentally didn’t start when Ryanair pulled). Wonder if they will announce fights again?
 
Scottiedog
Posts: 247
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Re: MAN news - 2018

Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:57 pm

Manchester Statistics - October 2018

Destinations that are either new (no passengers since my records started in January 2005), or have not been served for a number of years - if the latter then the month and year of the last service is shown.

No new destinations were served in October 2018

Million passenger routes (Rolling annual figures)
Amsterdam - 1,024,292 passengers
Dubai - 1,015,907 passengers

Two domestic statistics are currently missing from the CAA report for October.
Belfast City, and Inverness are yet to provide figures

Total passengers for these routes in 2017 were 24,847 - although the CAA site currently shows 66 passengers to Belfast City in October 2018.

Moving monthly and annual figures - based on CAA statistics/MAG statistics

Monthly passengers - 2,547,855 +5.96%
Annual Total - 19,123,190 +0.73%%
Moving Annual Total - 28,033,344 +1.06%

Monthly Movements - 18,192 +2.05%
Annual Movements - 130,950 -1.75%
Moving Annual Movements - 200,495 -1.84%

Top 25 destinations - by passenger numbers

Image

Top 25 destinations with highest percentage increase.

Image

Figures for the European and long haul destinations that I consider to be the main points for our connecting traffic.

Image

Comparison of top 25 destinations - October 2008 versus October 2018

Image

Major changes to Domestic traffic

Image

Belfast City and Inverness, have not reported figures for October.

CAA statistics for October are provisional.
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: MAN news - 2018

Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:34 am

Boeing74741R wrote:
klm617 wrote:
So here are a couple more questions and by the way I agree with what your wrote here but why would Delta just leave the MAN market and let VS take it over being it's planes are all on the larger side to operate out of Manchester while Delta has a more diverse fleet. Would it not be better to have VS take over more of the LHR market and leave MAN to Delta with their 757s and 767s. Also what makes it better for VS to operate MAN-LAX and MAN-SFO and the like when there are no nonstop links to these cities anyway when they could put an aircraft on DTW-MAN plus gain a much wider audience while still providing service to these west coast destinations thru DTW. Flying MAN-LAX only get's them the O/D market on this route while a route to a hub gives them so much more accessibility.


The Virgin brand has a much stronger presence in the UK than the Delta brand. Considering that a lot of the traffic on the US routes from MAN are passengers originating at MAN, it makes perfect sense. It’s also one reason why I think some of the calls on here that the Virgin brand will disappear from VS in favour of a so-called Delta UK is utter rubbish and unforeseeable in the short-to-medium term, or for as long as SRB is alive and has a stake in the airline via the Virgin Group.

The only plausible argument for Delta operating the NE USA routes is that they’re within range of their 757’s which might be better suited during the winter months to make routes such as BOS year-round. It was certainly the ideal aircraft when I did MAN-JFK with them in 2015, but it’ll be interesting to see the loads on the 747 when I do that route again in a few weeks. I’ll report back on the loadings if I remember to do so.


Quoting myself here. In case anybody is interested, flew on VS127 last Friday and VS128 on Wednesday night. Both flights had between 395-400 passengers with Upper Class full both ways and PE being very well loaded. Whilst waiting for our cases at MAN, I noticed quite a few cases belonging to passengers that had connected onto the VS128 from DL flights into JFK, as well as cases for O&D passengers.

Considering that the A330 was supposed to be allocated to these flights initially before it was swapped to the 747 with 455 seats and conscious that in the winter months these flights are running on alternate days to the ATL route, I'd say the load factors on both flights were impressive and the route can justify something bigger than an A330 even outside the summer months. I can't speak for Thomas Cook or United's EWR flight, but it's safe to say that VS are doing well on the MAN-JFK route.
 
8herveg
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Re: MAN news - 2018

Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:06 am

Boeing74741R wrote:
Boeing74741R wrote:
klm617 wrote:
So here are a couple more questions and by the way I agree with what your wrote here but why would Delta just leave the MAN market and let VS take it over being it's planes are all on the larger side to operate out of Manchester while Delta has a more diverse fleet. Would it not be better to have VS take over more of the LHR market and leave MAN to Delta with their 757s and 767s. Also what makes it better for VS to operate MAN-LAX and MAN-SFO and the like when there are no nonstop links to these cities anyway when they could put an aircraft on DTW-MAN plus gain a much wider audience while still providing service to these west coast destinations thru DTW. Flying MAN-LAX only get's them the O/D market on this route while a route to a hub gives them so much more accessibility.


The Virgin brand has a much stronger presence in the UK than the Delta brand. Considering that a lot of the traffic on the US routes from MAN are passengers originating at MAN, it makes perfect sense. It’s also one reason why I think some of the calls on here that the Virgin brand will disappear from VS in favour of a so-called Delta UK is utter rubbish and unforeseeable in the short-to-medium term, or for as long as SRB is alive and has a stake in the airline via the Virgin Group.

The only plausible argument for Delta operating the NE USA routes is that they’re within range of their 757’s which might be better suited during the winter months to make routes such as BOS year-round. It was certainly the ideal aircraft when I did MAN-JFK with them in 2015, but it’ll be interesting to see the loads on the 747 when I do that route again in a few weeks. I’ll report back on the loadings if I remember to do so.


Quoting myself here. In case anybody is interested, flew on VS127 last Friday and VS128 on Wednesday night. Both flights had between 395-400 passengers with Upper Class full both ways and PE being very well loaded. Whilst waiting for our cases at MAN, I noticed quite a few cases belonging to passengers that had connected onto the VS128 from DL flights into JFK, as well as cases for O&D passengers.

Considering that the A330 was supposed to be allocated to these flights initially before it was swapped to the 747 with 455 seats and conscious that in the winter months these flights are running on alternate days to the ATL route, I'd say the load factors on both flights were impressive and the route can justify something bigger than an A330 even outside the summer months. I can't speak for Thomas Cook or United's EWR flight, but it's safe to say that VS are doing well on the MAN-JFK route.


That's good to hear!

Once the A346's and B744's leave the fleet, and the A350's come in, I think there will be a much clearer plan about how/where VS deploy their fleet of A330's, A350's and B787's. It will be a much more streamlined fleet.

IMO, I could see something such as the following:

- 8 x A333's based at MAN, to operate the following:

Atlanta – 7 x w

New York JFK – 7 x w

Barbados – 3 x w
Las Vegas – 4 x w

Orlando – 14 x w

Los Angeles – 4 x w
San Francisco – 3 x w

Boston – 4 x w
Miami – 3 x w

Johannesburg – 3 x w
Delhi – 3 x w
Cancun – 1 x w

- 2 x remaining Virgin Atlantic International A333's at LGW, along with 4 x A350's (which can also operate the season GLA/BFS-MCO routes)

- 17 x B787's + 8 x A350's at LHR

Thoughts?
 
DobboDobbo
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Re: MAN news - 2018

Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:05 pm

I think it’s reasonably clear at this point that the decision makers behind VS are looking for ways to expand VS and it’s partners presence at MAN.

The VS expansion for S19, codeshares with Jet Airways, and the interest in FlyBe support this proposition.

Quite how they are going to implement this ambition remains unanswered. Presumably it will be VS led, but what role will the likes of Jet, Delta and possibly FlyBe (and others) play?

The timescales are also not clear (and will be subject to economic fluctuations). It goes without saying that if BE are purchased and their network is repurposed towards feeding VS (and partners) longhaul services at MAN it will likely accelerate plans.

If I were VS, my objectives would be to thicken some of the existing routes rather than open more routes at low/seasonal frequency. For example, I’d say MCO, JFK, ATL should be at a minimum daily all year. The likes of LAX and BOS should average at least 5x weekly all year.

SFO should be well-placed for a comeback, with MIA and JNB warrant consideration - as does SEA.

LAS and BGI are probably about where I’d expect them to be.

I’d not expect anything heading east, other than DEL (if Jet don’t operate the route).

Getting a clubhouse at MAN should be on the radar, I’ve seen spring 2020 rumoured but it’s an unsubstantiated rumour.
 
8herveg
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Re: MAN news - 2018

Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:19 pm

DobboDobbo wrote:
I think it’s reasonably clear at this point that the decision makers behind VS are looking for ways to expand VS and it’s partners presence at MAN.

The VS expansion for S19, codeshares with Jet Airways, and the interest in FlyBe support this proposition.

Quite how they are going to implement this ambition remains unanswered. Presumably it will be VS led, but what role will the likes of Jet, Delta and possibly FlyBe (and others) play?

The timescales are also not clear (and will be subject to economic fluctuations). It goes without saying that if BE are purchased and their network is repurposed towards feeding VS (and partners) longhaul services at MAN it will likely accelerate plans.

If I were VS, my objectives would be to thicken some of the existing routes rather than open more routes at low/seasonal frequency. For example, I’d say MCO, JFK, ATL should be at a minimum daily all year. The likes of LAX and BOS should average at least 5x weekly all year.

SFO should be well-placed for a comeback, with MIA and JNB warrant consideration - as does SEA.

LAS and BGI are probably about where I’d expect them to be.

I’d not expect anything heading east, other than DEL (if Jet don’t operate the route).

Getting a clubhouse at MAN should be on the radar, I’ve seen spring 2020 rumoured but it’s an unsubstantiated rumour.


Thanks DobboDobbo. It will be interesting to see what the outcome will be with the whole VS/BE thing. I wonder when we can expect to hear something?

Also, in your opinion, do you think MAN could work as an all A330 base fleet? Or do you think they NEED something larger there for the MCO flights, for example? Could it work as 2 x daily A330 to MCO or do they need extra capacity? Could they do 3 x daily A330's for example (I'm talking about in the summer).

Could Cancun work too? Saying that, wasn't there talk of VS pulling out of Cancun on the LGW route?

Thanks
 
David_itl
Posts: 6365
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2001 7:39 am

Re: MAN news - 2018

Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:43 pm

2 daily A330 to MCO wouk be a good starting point from 10 weekly 744s. Leas seats to aell with higher ticket prices.

ATL and JFK have the right capaciry in winter but not the right frequency to really make them the business travellers choice of airline
 
DobboDobbo
Topic Author
Posts: 884
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:02 am

Re: MAN news - 2018

Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:25 pm

8herveg wrote:
DobboDobbo wrote:
I think it’s reasonably clear at this point that the decision makers behind VS are looking for ways to expand VS and it’s partners presence at MAN.

The VS expansion for S19, codeshares with Jet Airways, and the interest in FlyBe support this proposition.

Quite how they are going to implement this ambition remains unanswered. Presumably it will be VS led, but what role will the likes of Jet, Delta and possibly FlyBe (and others) play?

The timescales are also not clear (and will be subject to economic fluctuations). It goes without saying that if BE are purchased and their network is repurposed towards feeding VS (and partners) longhaul services at MAN it will likely accelerate plans.

If I were VS, my objectives would be to thicken some of the existing routes rather than open more routes at low/seasonal frequency. For example, I’d say MCO, JFK, ATL should be at a minimum daily all year. The likes of LAX and BOS should average at least 5x weekly all year.

SFO should be well-placed for a comeback, with MIA and JNB warrant consideration - as does SEA.

LAS and BGI are probably about where I’d expect them to be.

I’d not expect anything heading east, other than DEL (if Jet don’t operate the route).

Getting a clubhouse at MAN should be on the radar, I’ve seen spring 2020 rumoured but it’s an unsubstantiated rumour.


Thanks DobboDobbo. It will be interesting to see what the outcome will be with the whole VS/BE thing. I wonder when we can expect to hear something?

Also, in your opinion, do you think MAN could work as an all A330 base fleet? Or do you think they NEED something larger there for the MCO flights, for example? Could it work as 2 x daily A330 to MCO or do they need extra capacity? Could they do 3 x daily A330's for example (I'm talking about in the summer).

Could Cancun work too? Saying that, wasn't there talk of VS pulling out of Cancun on the LGW route?

Thanks



I have no inside knowledge, but in regards to BE I’d say they are likely negotiating over a deal in principle (pending due diligence, exclusivity periods etc).

Regarding an all A330 fleet, that would likely be good for all markets save for MCO. It is probably cheaper to send 10x weekly B744 or A346 or A350 rather than 14x weekly A330.

No idea on other beach markets. Suspect it depends on VS’s operations at LGW, and I can’t see them giving up that operation.
 
DobboDobbo
Topic Author
Posts: 884
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:02 am

Re: MAN news - 2018

Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:39 pm

David_itl wrote:
2 daily A330 to MCO wouk be a good starting point from 10 weekly 744s. Leas seats to aell with higher ticket prices.

ATL and JFK have the right capaciry in winter but not the right frequency to really make them the business travellers choice of airline


Getting ATL and JFK right has to be a priority ASAP.

ATL feels like it is ready for the stability and certainty of a daily A330. JFK feels the same, with a possible increase in frequency over the summer (and possibly Christmas) peak.

Ultimately this depends on VS’s dl et issues being resolved and I don’t know when that might happen.
 
8herveg
Posts: 1377
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 2:01 am

Re: MAN news - 2018

Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:29 pm

Out of interest, why has VS gone down to 3 x weekly on ATL during this winter? That must be the first time in years that’s happened. Why the drop in demand? Or is it just that they’re splitting the operations with JFK?
 
DobboDobbo
Topic Author
Posts: 884
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:02 am

Re: MAN news - 2018

Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:55 pm

8herveg wrote:
Out of interest, why has VS gone down to 3 x weekly on ATL during this winter? That must be the first time in years that’s happened. Why the drop in demand? Or is it just that they’re splitting the operations with JFK?


In short, VS's fleet issues.

They are using one B744 to provide broadly the same seat capacity as two A333 on ATL/JFK. Ultimately, having fewer rotations lowers choice and likely doesnt supply demand in the proper manner.
 
JamesCousins
Posts: 433
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:19 pm

Re: MAN news - 2018

Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:52 pm

David_itl wrote:
2 daily A330 to MCO wouk be a good starting point from 10 weekly 744s. Leas seats to aell with higher ticket prices.

ATL and JFK have the right capaciry in winter but not the right frequency to really make them the business travellers choice of airline


While I'd guess the fleet will be mostly A330s, I'd be very surprised to see no A350s serving Orlando, particularly. The new hard product on VS' flagship route will help with marketshare on one of the most competitive routes (replicate the double-decker wow factor of the 747 somewhat)
Q400, A320-200, A321-200, 737-500, 737-800, 747-400, 757-200, 787-9 // FCA, TOM, TUI, MON, MT, BA, VS, DL, BE, X9, OLY
 
Mullion
Posts: 48
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:02 am

Re: MAN news - 2018

Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:37 am

Wouldn`t call MCO a flagship route, it`s mainly bucket and spade pax
 
User001
Posts: 924
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2016 2:18 pm

Re: MAN news - 2018

Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:07 am

United to use the B767-300 March-May and B767-400 May-Oct on the Newark route.

Nice to see the, finally upgrade from the B757-200!
 
User avatar
Channex757
Posts: 2358
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:07 am

Re: MAN news - 2018

Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:55 am

This morning's A350-1000 first visit is being operated by Cathay's B-LXE. 1st December upgrade on the route.
 
8herveg
Posts: 1377
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 2:01 am

Re: MAN news - 2018

Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:41 am

User001 wrote:
United to use the B767-300 March-May and B767-400 May-Oct on the Newark route.

Nice to see the, finally upgrade from the B757-200!


Finally indeed! It’s been years since UA operated a widebody into MAN. Why now? Is this a response to VS operating a widebody to JFK? Or is/has there been a genuine increase in demand?
 
Mullion
Posts: 48
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:02 am

Re: MAN news - 2018

Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:55 am

There is a demand, however to add to that United are gradually retiring the B757 and the B763 has the same number of seats except more business and the B764 is just bigger and also B763 is just as old as the B757
 
Armodeen
Posts: 1183
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:17 am

Re: MAN news - 2018

Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:05 pm

User001 wrote:
United to use the B767-300 March-May and B767-400 May-Oct on the Newark route.

Nice to see the, finally upgrade from the B757-200!


764 :bouncy: :bouncy: :bouncy:

The extra capacity being thrown at NYC is amazing! I wonder if all the players will stick it out?
 
FlyingColours
Posts: 2320
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 3:13 am

Re: MAN news - 2018

Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:09 pm

DobboDobbo wrote:
8herveg wrote:
Out of interest, why has VS gone down to 3 x weekly on ATL during this winter? That must be the first time in years that’s happened. Why the drop in demand? Or is it just that they’re splitting the operations with JFK?


In short, VS's fleet issues.

They are using one B744 to provide broadly the same seat capacity as two A333 on ATL/JFK. Ultimately, having fewer rotations lowers choice and likely doesnt supply demand in the proper manner.


Indeed, I've just come back from Vegas and would have liked to have gone with VS having previously had a great experience on my trip to JFK (in PE) and would have liked to see what their standard Y experience was however they had axed the direct flight and only offered MAN-ATL-LAS (and return) split between VS and DL which I was more than happy to do however they couldn't give me the dates I needed so had to settle for the direct flight with Thomas Cook for the same price and frankly disappointing experience so the competition ended up with our money (although it may have worked in their favour as I will certainly think again before doing longhaul with TCX).

It really would be great if VS could expand at MAN and it seems we are all in agreement that a takeover of BE will almost certainly help :)

Phil
FlyingColours
Lifes a train racing towards you, now you can either run away or grab a chair & a beer and watch it come - Phil
 
Trk1
Posts: 91
Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:37 pm

United seating

Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:48 pm

Correction to post 590:

United 757-200 seating is 169

United 767-300 seating is 214

United 767-400. seating is 240

so United has upgraded the seating to add about 10,000 seats for the summer
 
Cunard
Posts: 2472
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:45 pm

Re: MAN news - 2018

Sun Dec 02, 2018 3:58 am

FlyingColours wrote:
DobboDobbo wrote:
8herveg wrote:
Out of interest, why has VS gone down to 3 x weekly on ATL during this winter? That must be the first time in years that’s happened. Why the drop in demand? Or is it just that they’re splitting the operations with JFK?


In short, VS's fleet issues.

They are using one B744 to provide broadly the same seat capacity as two A333 on ATL/JFK. Ultimately, having fewer rotations lowers choice and likely doesnt supply demand in the proper manner.


Indeed, I've just come back from Vegas and would have liked to have gone with VS having previously had a great experience on my trip to JFK (in PE) and would have liked to see what their standard Y experience was however they had axed the direct flight and only offered MAN-ATL-LAS (and return) split between VS and DL which I was more than happy to do however they couldn't give me the dates I needed so had to settle for the direct flight with Thomas Cook for the same price and frankly disappointing experience so the competition ended up with our money (although it may have worked in their favour as I will certainly think again before doing longhaul with TCX).

It really would be great if VS could expand at MAN and it seems we are all in agreement that a takeover of BE will almost certainly help :)

Phil
FlyingColours


Although obviously not suitable for your recent travels but VS haven't totally axed MAN-LAS as it's still operating albeit being seasonal only.
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
FlyingColours
Posts: 2320
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 3:13 am

Re: MAN news - 2018

Sun Dec 02, 2018 1:16 pm

Ah sorry that's my error, I had meant to say it was axed over the winter but had the wife in my ear :)

Phil
FlyingColours
Lifes a train racing towards you, now you can either run away or grab a chair & a beer and watch it come - Phil
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1186
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 am

Re: MAN news - 2018

Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:46 pm

David_itl wrote:
2 daily A330 to MCO wouk be a good starting point from 10 weekly 744s. Leas seats to aell with higher ticket prices.


I’m not sure. The A330-300’s in their current config have too many Upper seats for the route (some of them are on their third config since delivery to VS brand new) and I don’t think any airline can get away with charging high prices on an MCO/SFB route. Additionally, VS have cancelled the second MCO flight in the past if forward bookings aren’t looking strong - that happened to me 2 years ago when the VS075/76 was cancelled and rebooked onto the VS073/74.

The route needs something high capacity and the A350-1000’s in the higher density config will fit the bill.
 
DobboDobbo
Topic Author
Posts: 884
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:02 am

Re: MAN news - 2018

Sun Dec 02, 2018 3:15 pm

Boeing74741R wrote:
David_itl wrote:
2 daily A330 to MCO wouk be a good starting point from 10 weekly 744s. Leas seats to aell with higher ticket prices.


I’m not sure. The A330-300’s in their current config have too many Upper seats for the route (some of them are on their third config since delivery to VS brand new) and I don’t think any airline can get away with charging high prices on an MCO/SFB route. Additionally, VS have cancelled the second MCO flight in the past if forward bookings aren’t looking strong - that happened to me 2 years ago when the VS075/76 was cancelled and rebooked onto the VS073/74.

The route needs something high capacity and the A350-1000’s in the higher density config will fit the bill.


If it were me, I’d split the Florida flights across two destinations. I’d keep the focus on MCO (for obvious reasons) but split some capacity to MIA.
 
rutankrd
Posts: 3025
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2003 6:08 am

Re: MAN news - 2018

Sun Dec 02, 2018 3:43 pm

dobo - Time and again Miami simply doesn’t work and neither will Cape Town both rather premium winter leisure markets . For South Africa really gotta be Johannesburg period however can’t rely on a UK carrier and frankly Springbok are broke .
 
DobboDobbo
Topic Author
Posts: 884
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:02 am

Re: MAN news - 2018

Sun Dec 02, 2018 5:15 pm

rutankrd wrote:
dobo - Time and again Miami simply doesn’t work and neither will Cape Town both rather premium winter leisure markets . For South Africa really gotta be Johannesburg period however can’t rely on a UK carrier and frankly Springbok are broke .


I agree that a service to South Africa ex MAN would have to be JNB - and I don’t see that anytime soon from VS (who I think are well placed to offer a seasonal service). If ET bed in, I think it could be some time before we see another route to sub Saharan Africa.

Again, I think VS are best placed to offer MIA - even if seasonal to start with. I don’t think MIA is the sort of route that can never work and will forever be doomed to fail, but it clearly hasn’t been as lucrative as expected.
 
rutankrd
Posts: 3025
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2003 6:08 am

Re: MAN news - 2018

Sun Dec 02, 2018 5:57 pm

The issue with Miami and Manchester I think are multifold.

Problem 1 Miami is almost a fortress hub for American and Oneworld partners these days and as we know they have rather unfortunately changed/moved their focus in Europe to good ol’ Heathrow once more.

Problem 2 Simple numbers of connections to other US destinations can be made better elsewhere and Virgins US owners just about only fly back to Atlanta anyways.
Problem 3 Few in their right mind make International to international connections via a US airport
Problem 4 Simple numbers from the North West to Latin American and Southern American points remain at very low PDEW numbers in reality

Therefore almost all traffic will be point to point or at the very least an entry/exit point combined with Orlando I suppose.

As for the cruise traffic it’s a growing market from the UK;Has great potential but again could be better served via somewhere a bit further north such as Lauderdale or via coach transfers as now from to Orlando.

I would go to suggest Lauderdale and Clearwater might both be more successful secondary points than Miami in addition to Orlando imho

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