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XLA2008
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737-700ER LCY-JFK

Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:08 pm

Just doing some research into the 737-700ER and ira Range etc, however I noticed that the 737-700 requires more runway space to take off than the A318. I was wondering if the 737-700ER had the capability to operate LCY-JFK with a cabin product like BA with 32 or similar business class only seats, without A. Needing to stop for fuel enroute given a standard range of 5500nm+ and given a reduced capacity in the cabin having only business class if the weight reduction would give it better runway capabilities to be able to operate in and out of LCY?

I guess short of what I’m asking is, in all business config could the 737-700ER make it in and out of LCY and operate to JFK without a stop. Or if it could operate in and out of LCY maybe would it need to stop enroute due to fuel weight?
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Drucocu
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Re: 737-700ER LCY-JFK

Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:28 pm

As far as I know, the 737 is not allowed into LCY due to it not being certified for steep descend procedures. The A318 is the largest plane certified for LCY.

The rest I don't know, other people will definitely be more knowledgeable than I am.
 
Cunard
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Re: 737-700ER LCY-JFK

Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:32 am

Just a quick reply and the answer is a big NO.

To the OP I hope that your aware that it's not just about the runway length at LCY as there are other factors to take into account as stated by Drucocu plus I think that the B737-700 is too big for LCY anyway so it's a non starter on so many levels.
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aemoreira1981
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Re: 737-700ER LCY-JFK

Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:20 am

A B737 isn't authorized to run from LCY as others have noted. That said, why has BA never tried an Embraer Lineage 1000 or an E190 with the Lineage fuel capacity? It's a variant of the Embraer 190 and could be flown with CityFlyer crews.
 
Andy33
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Re: 737-700ER LCY-JFK

Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:44 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
and could be flown with CityFlyer crews.

Or at least, it could be flown with CityFlyer crews if the agreements BA has with pilot and cabin crew unions permitted it, which they don't.
 
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XLA2008
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Re: 737-700ER LCY-JFK

Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:17 am

I’m aware it isn’t just runway length, this is hypothetical, could hypothetically the 737-700ER be certified and capable of operating in and out of LCY on routes like LCY-JFK? Or is it just not possible even with certification?

Is it runway length, weight, climb/descent rate, aircraft size not capable of getting in and out of LCY? It’s just hypothetical.
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mmo
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Re: 737-700ER LCY-JFK

Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:28 am

Of course, you do realize the Airbus service from LCY-JFK was not non-stop? The aircraft stopped in DUB where passengers precleared with US authorities and the aircraft was service for the DUB-JFK leg. The reason is the aircraft could not make it from LCY. The flight could make it JFK-LCY with the "normal" winds.
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Nicoeddf
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Re: 737-700ER LCY-JFK

Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:56 am

mmo wrote:
The aircraft stopped in DUB where passengers precleared with US authorities


Which is a huge advantage compared to the questionable experience in the USA itself.
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vsflyer747400
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Re: 737-700ER LCY-JFK

Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:04 am

mmo wrote:
Of course, you do realize the Airbus service from LCY-JFK was not non-stop? The aircraft stopped in DUB where passengers precleared with US authorities and the aircraft was service for the DUB-JFK leg. The reason is the aircraft could not make it from LCY. The flight could make it JFK-LCY with the "normal" winds.


The flight actually stops in SNN not DUB for preclearance.
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Andy33
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Re: 737-700ER LCY-JFK

Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:18 am

Nearly right, mmo.
The A318 LCY-JFK service, now reduced to one flight each way from the original two, stops westbound at SNN (not DUB) because the runway at LCY is nowhere near long enough for the plane to take off with sufficient fuel to cross the Atlantic. US preclearance happens at SNN, which at least gives the passengers something positive to do while the refuelling happens, since they then arrive at JFK as domestic passengers.
Bombardier did a transatlantic test flight with a CS100 which showed that a refuelling stop isn't necessary with that aircraft, and there is a start-up airline (Odyssey) which has ordered CS100s for use from LCY. However it has gone awfully quiet on that front and there's no sign at all of deliveries being taken or flights starting.

On the original question, I can't see anyone other than the original poster being interested to do the substantial amount of research required to answer it. It is so extremely hypothetical, given that there's no way Boeing are going to spend one penny on certifying what for them is an obsolete aircraft (as the MAX7 is now a different size), especially for a market this tiny.

Many of us in the UK believe that transatlantic service from LCY will be lucky to last past 2020, because the opening of the Crossrail/Elizabeth Line heavy rail route will encourage sufficient leakage from the parts of London's financial district that are currently marginal for LCY, towards the vastly greater frequency from LHR. Sure, there will still be some areas that are so close to LCY that people would want to use it in preference to anywhere else, but will there be enough of them?
 
edina
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Re: 737-700ER LCY-JFK

Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:30 am

Andy33 wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
and could be flown with CityFlyer crews.

Or at least, it could be flown with CityFlyer crews if the agreements BA has with pilot and cabin crew unions permitted it, which they don't.


The only reason LGW based cabin crew operate LCY-JFK is that BA didn't want the cost of offlining BACF cabin crew for Airbus training and US visa interviews. Nothing in the cabin crew union agreements prevents BACF cabin crew from operating the JFK service.
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Andy33
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Re: 737-700ER LCY-JFK

Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:57 am

edina wrote:
The only reason LGW based cabin crew operate LCY-JFK is that BA didn't want the cost of offlining BACF cabin crew for Airbus training and US visa interviews. Nothing in the cabin crew union agreements prevents BACF cabin crew from operating the JFK service.

Thanks for correcting me.
The cabin crew would also have needed time to learn the Club World service standards, whereas LGW crew do Club World on 77Es as part of their routine work.

I think the point about the pilot union agreement is still valid, though, and BA have historically been very reluctant to get into disputes with their pilots. The fact that IAG CEO Willie Walsh is himself a former commercial pilot (flew 737s for Aer Lingus) probably means he understands just how damaging such a dispute could be better than other managers without his background. In fact wasn't he a union rep at Aer Lingus, before "changing sides" and joining the management team?
 
oldannyboy
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Re: 737-700ER LCY-JFK

Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:29 am

... the level of excitement and random fantasies that the BA LCY-JFK service - a marginal route, reduced to a sad daily schedule; and likely dying a quiet death due to Crossrail soon- has elicited in us a.nutters is really rather mind-boggling.....
 
Bricktop
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Re: 737-700ER LCY-JFK

Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:03 pm

oldannyboy wrote:
... the level of excitement and random fantasies that the BA LCY-JFK service - a marginal route, reduced to a sad daily schedule; and likely dying a quiet death due to Crossrail soon- has elicited in us a.nutters is really rather mind-boggling.....

Not really. It's a cool and offbeat route, using a plane that many of us don't get to see. (F9!!) I find the A318's stubbyness rather cute and endearing.
 
PlymSpotter
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Re: 737-700ER LCY-JFK

Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:15 pm

Looking strictly at runway length, the 73G could operate with a marginal payload. However LCY has a steep approach, which required the A318 to be modified to achieve the required approach speed. I understand Boeing looked at whether the 736 could also be modified and concluded that it could not, which implies the 73G could definitely not be modified.
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NichCage
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Re: 737-700ER LCY-JFK

Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:20 pm

I'm sure that BA's A318 has extra fuel tanks onboard to fly farther, even though it makes a stop at SNN. Privitair 737's used by KL, LH, and SK were able to carry extra fuel to fly farther, yet operated from longer runways that LCY doesn't have.

Maybe the C-Series could fly LCY-JFK direct. If not, a stop will have to be made.

On routes like AMS-IAH, DUS-EWR, etc (that used the Privitair 737) had longer runways to use and could fly direct. LCY-JFK non-stop will no doubt be challenging considering how short the runway is and how it won't be expanded anytime soon.
 
ExMilitaryEng
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Re: 737-700ER LCY-JFK

Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:19 pm

NichCage wrote:
Maybe the C-Series could fly LCY-JFK direct.

There are no reasons to believe otherwise.

A LCY-JFK non-stop was easily performed, with a load/configuration similar to an all business commercial operation.

CS100's CASM will beat anything that's currently flying in LCY, particularly the JFK/A318 route. Now for that route; would that be sufficient to offset the premium market erosion post CrossRail?
 
TC957
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Re: 737-700ER LCY-JFK

Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:48 pm

I've often watched the ANA 737ER depart NRT for BOM when they did that route and it usually rotated past the mid-point 2000 meter marker. Granted that's about 700 miles longer, there's no way it'll get out of LCY for JFK direct.
 
Cunard
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Re: 737-700ER LCY-JFK

Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:47 am

Bricktop wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:
... the level of excitement and random fantasies that the BA LCY-JFK service - a marginal route, reduced to a sad daily schedule; and likely dying a quiet death due to Crossrail soon- has elicited in us a.nutters is really rather mind-boggling.....

Not really. It's a cool and offbeat route, using a plane that many of us don't get to see. (F9!!) I find the A318's stubbyness rather cute and endearing.


Oh how sweet it's all well and done finding the A318's stubbyness rather cute and endearing but that really doesn't make up for the comments made by oldnannyboy regarding the slow death of the BA LCY JFK route.

So being hypothetical or not I personally can't see any other aircraft or airline operating from LCY to JFK after 2020.
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Bricktop
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Re: 737-700ER LCY-JFK

Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:07 am

Cunard wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:
... the level of excitement and random fantasies that the BA LCY-JFK service - a marginal route, reduced to a sad daily schedule; and likely dying a quiet death due to Crossrail soon- has elicited in us a.nutters is really rather mind-boggling.....

Not really. It's a cool and offbeat route, using a plane that many of us don't get to see. (F9!!) I find the A318's stubbyness rather cute and endearing.


Oh how sweet it's all well and done finding the A318's stubbyness rather cute and endearing but that really doesn't make up for the comments made by oldnannyboy regarding the slow death of the BA LCY JFK route.

So being hypothetical or not I personally can't see any other aircraft or airline operating from LCY to JFK after 2020.

The clock is ticking on a pretty unique service with a non-standard plane, and you’re most likely correct on the timeframe. I am surprised that people are surprised that posters on an aviation forum find interest in the topic. But yay, more big twins between LHR and JFK. Here come the goosebumps. :-)
 
FlyingSicilian
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Re: 737-700ER LCY-JFK

Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:17 am

To the OP, KLM used a PrivatAir 737 to fly from AMS to IAH in an all biz configuration and Stavanger to Houston on SAS (44 seats IIRC). I do not recall which version of the 737 it was, but it made that non-stop so distance wise it is doable LCY-JFK, notwithstanding the runway and other issues.
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queb
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Re: 737-700ER LCY-JFK

Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:00 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
That said, why has BA never tried an Embraer Lineage 1000 or an E190 with the Lineage fuel capacity? It's a variant of the Embraer 190 and could be flown with CityFlyer crews.


the E190 is already fuel limited at LCY (about 800 nm max range), so have more fuel tanks is useless.
 
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c933103
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Re: 737-700ER LCY-JFK

Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:14 am

NichCage wrote:
I'm sure that BA's A318 has extra fuel tanks onboard to fly farther, even though it makes a stop at SNN. Privitair 737's used by KL, LH, and SK were able to carry extra fuel to fly farther, yet operated from longer runways that LCY doesn't have.

Maybe the C-Series could fly LCY-JFK direct. If not, a stop will have to be made.

On routes like AMS-IAH, DUS-EWR, etc (that used the Privitair 737) had longer runways to use and could fly direct. LCY-JFK non-stop will no doubt be challenging considering how short the runway is and how it won't be expanded anytime soon.

FlyingSicilian wrote:
To the OP, KLM used a PrivatAir 737 to fly from AMS to IAH in an all biz configuration and Stavanger to Houston on SAS (44 seats IIRC). I do not recall which version of the 737 it was, but it made that non-stop so distance wise it is doable LCY-JFK, notwithstanding the runway and other issues.


Runway length would limit the maximum amount of fuel the aircraft can carry, therefore the max volume of fuel it can hold is not the only limiting factor to the available fuel
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