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keesje
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Reuters: United to consider Airbus A321 NEO.

Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:09 pm

Speaking at the Airline Economics conference in Dublin, Laderman said the airline would also look at the smallest model of the Boeing 787 Dreamliner and the Airbus A321neo in the same stage its fleet replacement plans

https://www.reuters.com/article/aviation-finance-united/united-sees-potential-new-boeing-jet-available-in-8-10-years-idUSS8N1O3024

I think big airlines are talking to all their major suppliers all the time. We shouldn't think much of it. Now the responsible guy is pointing to the A321NEO in relation to its fleet replacement plans. Laderman is the guy who signed up for the 737-10 at the Paris Airshow.

United sees a potential new Boeing jet available in 8-10 years.


Deliveries starting 2028 is probably too far away for United The 757/767 fleet are passing 20 yrs (on average..) already. http://www.airfleets.net/ageflotte/United%20Airlines.htm

The 737-10 seems not the solution for all their network requirements ( Caribbean, South America, Western Europe). The 787-8 is under consideration too, but has twice the weight, range and price. So probably a different application.

Image
United ETOPS 757 at Manchester

It wouldn't be very surprising to have United considering A321s because American, Delta, Spirit, Frontier, Jetblue, Hawaiian and Alaska have been moving to A321s and they are operating in the same marketplace.

United would probably focus on the improved A321 NEO ACF to give them medium range / premium cabin flexibility.

Image
A321NEO ACF prototype, Jan 2018.
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Dominion301
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Re: Reuters: United to consider Airbus A321 NEO.

Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:09 pm

I would be very surprised if UA were to NOT order A321s at some point.

On a separate note, would it make sense for Boeing to develop a 767 MAX in the same manner than Airbus NEO'd the 330? You'd think a long-time 767 operator like UA would look at such a bird to directly replace some 767s.
 
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Re: Reuters: United to consider Airbus A321 NEO.

Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:19 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
On a separate note, would it make sense for Boeing to develop a 767 MAX in the same manner than Airbus NEO'd the 330? You'd think a long-time 767 operator like UA would look at such a bird to directly replace some 767s.


It would, if there was a fitting engine on the market. But in this thurst class there is nothing. To develop it specialy for the 767 is not realistic, It would cost so much the enigine maker would demand a more modern airframe to make its investment last longer.
 
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Re: Reuters: United to consider Airbus A321 NEO.

Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:24 pm

It would surprise me if United did NOT order the A321 NEO. Man....has Boeing really dropped the ball on the 757/767 replacement.
 
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Re: Reuters: United to consider Airbus A321 NEO.

Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:29 pm

Boeing totally missed the boat...they should have been keeping up with this market need from the outset.
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Re: Reuters: United to consider Airbus A321 NEO.

Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:36 pm

Well everyone has "missed the boat" when it comes to 767 replacement.
 
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Re: Reuters: United to consider Airbus A321 NEO.

Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:37 pm

I would only be surprised if they dismissed the A321 as a possibility. Will they order it, we will see, it's not a given.

More interesting is the fact that new 767s are now not an option anymore, so that possible chapter is now closed.
 
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Re: Reuters: United to consider Airbus A321 NEO.

Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:47 pm

Momo1435 wrote:

More interesting is the fact that new 767s are now not an option anymore, so that possible chapter is now closed.


I never really believed in that option. That chapter indeed now seems closed.
 
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Re: Reuters: United to consider Airbus A321 NEO.

Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:57 pm

The A321NEO *should* facilitate UA keeping routes to smaller Western European airports from its more easterly hubs (EWR, IAD, ORD).
 
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Re: Reuters: United to consider Airbus A321 NEO.

Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:01 pm

Boeing has been milking the 737 far too long that the Chinese will have a viable replacement for the 737 and 757 which will dominate most of Asia. Sarcasm intended. Boeing has been asleep at the switch so long that Boeing is is jeopardizing their future. Boeing has been on life support thinking that the saying "if it ain't Boeing it ain't going" will save Boeing. :old:
Last edited by NWAROOSTER on Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Reuters: United to consider Airbus A321 NEO.

Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:03 pm

It will be interesting to see how all of this dovetails with their plans to boost domestic capacity in a bid to catch up with their rivals. The A321 is a versatile aircraft and a good replacement for the 757. American seems to like the airplane...
 
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Re: Reuters: United to consider Airbus A321 NEO.

Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:10 pm

We shouldn't discount this as a plot to get Boeing to hurry the hell up with the NMA. 2028 is about the time the NMA should be flying.
 
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Re: Reuters: United to consider Airbus A321 NEO.

Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:20 pm

The A321neo/LR has written UA all over it, me thinks.

However, as we all know here, the 757 can't be replaced.... ;-)
 
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Re: Reuters: United to consider Airbus A321 NEO.

Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:20 pm

The 737-10 seems not the solution for all their network requirements ( Caribbean, South America, Western Europe

Indeed, the 737-10 doesn't have near the range needed for either South American or Western Europe, does it? A321NEO LR could be a good fit to replace 757 on the NY-UK routes at least. UA is using the 788 on some western Europe routes to IAD now (LGW, CDG)
 
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Re: Reuters: United to consider Airbus A321 NEO.

Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:23 pm

They could very well take the A321 to get out from under the A350 can they keep kicking down the road.
 
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Re: Reuters: United to consider Airbus A321 NEO.

Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:26 pm

It will be interesting to see if this:

A. Jump starts Boeing into moving forwards more rapidly with the MOM. United was one of the customers who was reportedly briefed on the basic design last year and was also reportedly very enthusiastic about it. If they are seriously interested in the A321, this may indicate that they can't wait for the MOM as it is currently scheduled.
B. Motivates Boeing to really offer United new build 767s at bargain basement prices, perhaps even at a small loss, as a stopgap until the MOM is ready.

Either way, United is too important of a customer for United to lose in this segment. If United is even half serious about ordering the A321, Boeing is going to have to respond in some way.
Last edited by Aptivaboy on Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Reuters: United to consider Airbus A321 NEO.

Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:26 pm

There was a comment on the investor call regarding a new narrowbody. United’s response was, “stay tuned.” Something is in the works.
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Re: Reuters: United to consider Airbus A321 NEO.

Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:48 pm

United would be considering everything that is on the market at the time. No surprise for them to consider the. 737 and A320 series.
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Re: Reuters: United to consider Airbus A321 NEO.

Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:49 pm

This surprises me, I thought United with its current Board will never ever order any Airbus again.
 
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Re: Reuters: United to consider Airbus A321 NEO.

Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:53 pm

flyguy84 wrote:
There was a comment on the investor call regarding a new narrowbody. United’s response was, “stay tuned.” Something is in the works.


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Re: Reuters: United to consider Airbus A321 NEO.

Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:54 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
On a separate note, would it make sense for Boeing to develop a 767 MAX in the same manner than Airbus NEO'd the 330? You'd think a long-time 767 operator like UA would look at such a bird to directly replace some 767s.


UA is said to be looking at new 767-300ERs to replace some 767-300ERs.


UWPAviation wrote:
It would surprise me if United did NOT order the A321 NEO. Man....has Boeing really dropped the ball on the 757/767 replacement.


There was no demand for a direct 757-200 replacement. Even the A321-200LR is not a direct 757-200 replacement - it lacks the payload / range due to needing to trade payload weight for fuel weight to meet the range requirements.


Polot wrote:
Well everyone has "missed the boat" when it comes to 767 replacement.


To be fair, it was because the airlines also did not want a direct 767-300ER replacement. The original 7E7 design studies were positioned as replacements for the 767-300ER, 767-400ER and A330-200 and in discussions with airlines, they all pushed Boeing to make the plane larger (A330-200, A330-300, 777-200).


Momo1435 wrote:
More interesting is the fact that new 767s are now not an option anymore, so that possible chapter is now closed.


Nothing in that report says UA has stopped looking at adding more 767s. An A321-200LR would make a poor 767 replacement in terms of capacity and payload.


airbazar wrote:
We shouldn't discount this as a plot to get Boeing to hurry the hell up with the NMA. 2028 is about the time the NMA should be flying.


All United has to do is offer Boeing a contract with strong enough number, price and delivery guarantees to convince Boeing to launch and they will launch.
 
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Re: Reuters: United to consider Airbus A321 NEO.

Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:56 pm

armchairceonr1 wrote:
How many 737-10 and 321 sized planes United needs? After 737-10 order I thought that they doesn't need 321 soon.


Depends on what missions they want to use the A321-200LR for and how those missions look when flown with a 737-9 or 737-10. Also in the mix would be how soon they want to retire their remaining 757-200 fleet.
 
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Re: Reuters: United to consider Airbus A321 NEO.

Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:57 pm

How many 737-10 and 321 sized planes United needs? After 737-10 order I thought that they doesn't need 321 soon.
 
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Re: Reuters: United to consider Airbus A321 NEO.

Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:10 pm

keesje wrote:
It wouldn't be very surprising to have United considering A321s because American, Delta, Spirit, Frontier, Jetblue, Hawaiian and Alaska have been moving to A321s and they are operating in the same marketplace.



Bear in mind that AS isn't totally sold on the A321NEO yet; they like it a lot, but they also love fleet commonality, so they're waiting on either Boeing or Airbus to make an offer they can't refuse before hitching their wagon to the A321 or the 737MAX10.

So far neither has, but Boeing is far, far more likely to make such an offer to AS given the demand the A321 currently has.
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Re: Reuters: United to consider Airbus A321 NEO.

Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:18 pm

Surely, there will be few airlines who will not take the A321neo in whatever guise it appears in the next 10 years.

The MoM 797's breakfast, lunch and dinner has already been eaten. It is currently merely vapourware, and it will not proceed to hardware. Airbus should press on with the notional A322 or whatever, if they are not already. They also should raise production of their narrow bodies to Rate 100, including the C Series.
 
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Re: Reuters: United to consider Airbus A321 NEO.

Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:23 pm

Boeing has been testing the water on the MoM for more then 4 yrs now.

http://aviationweek.com/commercial-aviation/boeing-revisits-past-hunt-737757-successors

If they wait a bit longer, airlines like United, KLM, JAL and AirCanada might call it a day and move ahead with NEO's, Specially if Airbus promises future growth versions.

I think it might not have to do with Boeings sales force, engineers or customer loyalty, but with leadership and long term strategies.
Last edited by keesje on Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Reuters: United to consider Airbus A321 NEO.

Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:26 pm

What's wrong with the 788 as a 767 replacement?
 
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Re: Reuters: United to consider Airbus A321 NEO.

Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:27 pm

parapente wrote:
What's wrong with the 788 as a 767 replacement?


The 787 weighs 40t more, is for long haul & far more expensive.
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Re: Reuters: United to consider Airbus A321 NEO.

Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:35 pm

This interest for the A321 NEO is really a smart move from United!!! Boeing will probably offer its 737-10 at $24M.

Remember, Boeing sold United 737-700 @ $21M ea - to fend off the superior CS300. (United later canceled/deferred and swapped the order for other Boeing models)
Last edited by ExMilitaryEng on Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:37 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
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Re: Reuters: United to consider Airbus A321 NEO.

Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:36 pm

Stitch wrote:
There was no demand for a direct 757-200 replacement. Even the A321-200LR is not a direct 757-200 replacement - it lacks the payload / range due to needing to trade payload weight for fuel weight to meet the range requirements.

Image
You sure?
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Re: Reuters: United to consider Airbus A321 NEO.

Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:11 pm

At that same conference it was reported that UA said the MOM will be here in 9-10 years and that UA expects to add it to their fleet. They also said that Boeing will make a firm decision on it possibly by late '18, and that UA is holding off at replacement of the 757/767 until then. So sounds to me like posturing as launch customer and lower price by playing one against the other. The reality is the MOM will be in UA's fleet at some point; be it a NB or WB version. As for 321, just can't see them buying it unless those 350 orders get changed...again.
 
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Re: Reuters: United to consider Airbus A321 NEO.

Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:15 pm

keesje wrote:
parapente wrote:
What's wrong with the 788 as a 767 replacement?


The 787 weighs 40t more, is for long haul & far more expensive.

Perhaps Boeing could re-look at making a 787-3. Surely with all the 787 production knowledge now a lite-weight version could be done. Doubt it would be 40t lighter though.
Max the range at around 4500nm, lower thrust engines and perhaps a small fuselage shrink. Surely way cheaper than developing a new MOM.
 
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Re: Reuters: United to consider Airbus A321 NEO.

Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:27 pm

TC957 wrote:
Perhaps Boeing could re-look at making a 787-3.


783 was a clipped wing bad compromise to fit 767 sized airport structures.
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Re: Reuters: United to consider Airbus A321 NEO.

Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:37 pm

Bricktop wrote:
They could very well take the A321 to get out from under the A350 can they keep kicking down the road.


You mean that started off as an order for 25, then went to 35 and is now at 45? Does that really sound like an airline trying desperately to "get out from under" an order? :lol:
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Re: Reuters: United to consider Airbus A321 NEO.

Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:41 pm

scbriml wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
They could very well take the A321 to get out from under the A350 can they keep kicking down the road.


You mean that started off as an order for 25, then went to 35 and is now at 45? Does that really sound like an airline trying desperately to "get out from under" an order? :lol:

No, I am saying it is can kicking. And I didn't say they were good at it. :lol:
 
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Re: Reuters: United to consider Airbus A321 NEO.

Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:23 pm

Bricktop wrote:
No, I am saying it is can kicking. And I didn't say they were good at it. :lol:


Take a spoon:
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Re: Reuters: United to consider Airbus A321 NEO.

Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:46 pm

scbriml wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
They could very well take the A321 to get out from under the A350 can they keep kicking down the road.


You mean that started off as an order for 25, then went to 35 and is now at 45? Does that really sound like an airline trying desperately to "get out from under" an order? :lol:


Image

FWIW, UA and their infinite stupidity should ordered the A321 years ago.
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Re: Reuters: United to consider Airbus A321 NEO.

Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:59 pm

Bricktop wrote:
No, I am saying it is can kicking. And I didn't say they were good at it. :lol:

I thought it was the wrong airline, UA has already committed to the A350, AA on the other hand has an order and keeps delaying delivery.
 
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Re: Reuters: United to consider Airbus A321 NEO.

Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:01 pm

keesje wrote:
Boeing has been testing the water on the MoM for more then 4 yrs now.

By testing the waters you mean being proactive and talking to the airlines to identify their needs, wants and what they can do, right?
 
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Re: Reuters: United to consider Airbus A321 NEO.

Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:19 pm

par13del wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
No, I am saying it is can kicking. And I didn't say they were good at it. :lol:

I thought it was the wrong airline, UA has already committed to the A350, AA on the other hand has an order and keeps delaying delivery.


AA is a different story. There's a pretty good chance they won't take the A350.
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Re: Reuters: United to consider Airbus A321 NEO.

Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:26 pm

par13del wrote:
keesje wrote:
Boeing has been testing the water on the MoM for more then 4 yrs now.

By testing the waters you mean being proactive and talking to the airlines to identify their needs, wants and what they can do, right?


Yes. And when you do it for years, observers might conclude you are "dragging your feet".

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=761529
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Re: Reuters: United to consider Airbus A321 NEO.

Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:53 pm

WIederling wrote:
Stitch wrote:
There was no demand for a direct 757-200 replacement. Even the A321-200LR is not a direct 757-200 replacement - it lacks the payload / range due to needing to trade payload weight for fuel weight to meet the range requirements.

Image
You sure?

This graph makes me wonder how the standard A321 NEO turned out to be such a dog. I thought the changes to LR were minimal and mainly payload/range exchanges. What went wrong with the standard model? How did the wring so much out of the NEO?
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Re: Reuters: United to consider Airbus A321 NEO.

Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:01 pm

AA777223 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
Stitch wrote:
There was no demand for a direct 757-200 replacement. Even the A321-200LR is not a direct 757-200 replacement - it lacks the payload / range due to needing to trade payload weight for fuel weight to meet the range requirements.

https://imagr.eu/up/0GAt7_PR-diagram-1024x588.png
You sure?

This graph makes me wonder how the standard A321 NEO turned out to be such a dog. I thought the changes to LR were minimal and mainly payload/range exchanges. What went wrong with the standard model? How did the wring so much out of the NEO?


The graph shows exactly that : one more ACT and one more ACT's worth of MTOW increase. ( with tare weight of an ACT as payload loss.)
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Re: Reuters: United to consider Airbus A321 NEO.

Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:06 pm

ExMilitaryEng wrote:
This interest for the A321 NEO is really a smart move from United!!! Boeing will probably offer its 737-10 at $24M.

Remember, Boeing sold United 737-700 @ $21M ea - to fend off the superior CS300. (United later canceled/deferred and swapped the order for other Boeing models)

This was UAs big mistake. Ordering something they didnt need and then kicking that can down the road...
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Re: Reuters: United to consider Airbus A321 NEO.

Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:07 pm

drerx7 wrote:
Boeing totally missed the boat...they should have been keeping up with this market need from the outset.


They were too busy moving HQ to Chicago so they'd have an international image. Too busy torpedoing the Airbus tanker win with political moves. And lately, torpedoing the CS, which torpedo has turned and may be heading for their own hull.

They need to get back to the business of building products for the marketplace. Image and manipulation won't keep the stock price up forever.
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Re: Reuters: United to consider Airbus A321 NEO.

Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:21 pm

WIederling wrote:
AA777223 wrote:
WIederling wrote:

This graph makes me wonder how the standard A321 NEO turned out to be such a dog. I thought the changes to LR were minimal and mainly payload/range exchanges. What went wrong with the standard model? How did the wring so much out of the NEO?


The graph shows exactly that : one more ACT and one more ACT's worth of MTOW increase. ( with tare weight of an ACT as payload loss.)


Yes, but the standard A321neo will also have the MTOW increase to 97t. In order words, the graph shows the performance of A321neos currently flying. First A321neo ACF is currently undergoing testing and certification. First delivery this summer. By 2020 all A321s should be A321 ACF.
 
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Re: Reuters: United to consider Airbus A321 NEO.

Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:28 pm

Would this not spell doom for the MOM/NSA? I was thinking UAL would be its launch customer as it was for the 777. I guess they can't wait that long.

Boeing may be taking too long to pull the trigger on this one. But if the case isn't there it just isn't there. It may also be waiting to test new manufacturing techniques, key for keeping MOM costs low, on the 77X.
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Re: Reuters: United to consider Airbus A321 NEO.

Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:57 pm

reidar76 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
AA777223 wrote:
This graph makes me wonder how the standard A321 NEO turned out to be such a dog. I thought the changes to LR were minimal and mainly payload/range exchanges. What went wrong with the standard model? How did the wring so much out of the NEO?


The graph shows exactly that : one more ACT and one more ACT's worth of MTOW increase. ( with tare weight of an ACT as payload loss.)


Yes, but the standard A321neo will also have the MTOW increase to 97t. In order words, the graph shows the performance of A321neos currently flying. First A321neo ACF is currently undergoing testing and certification. First delivery this summer. By 2020 all A321s should be A321 ACF.


When the LR was offered the NEO had the reqular MTOW as before.

Then the increased MTOW is no help without the third ACT. You get that double whammy loss of payload for range.
While with fuel volume still available you get half the derate.
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Re: Reuters: United to consider Airbus A321 NEO.

Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:04 pm

What routes would a fleet of A321 NEO's fly at UA? Similar for the C-Series (300 or 500), any thoughts on what type of routes, new or existing?

Thanks!
 
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Re: Reuters: United to consider Airbus A321 NEO.

Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:08 pm

This is getting bad; Airbus stole DL as a customer, they mostly stole AA, and now it looks like they might steal UA as a customer. The President or Congress needs to step up and come to Boeing's rescue to prevent a U.S. Airbus monopoly.
Yes, I wear Fairy Tale Pink IZOD shirts. I am a real man.

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