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dtw2hyd
Posts: 8411
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Re: Emirates Announces non stop flights to EWR

Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:25 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
The big looser here will be star alliance. Lots of traffic from ewr-india.

EK has been so over serving JFK for years, we all expected something to happen with that crazy operation. I wouldn't be surprised if we still see one of those non-stops change to a stop in Europe.


I doubt it. Both UA and AI have loyal passengers. UA has its own premium passengers and AI followers pay for direct service to AMD, non-stop to Mumbai, with onward connections.

AI EWR-LHR-AMD seems to be 17hrs, EK-EWR-DXB-AMD will 22 to 26 hrs. No match.

If these passengers are just price sensitive, EK can offer lowest tickets on existing EWR-ATH-DXB-India to capture this market.

Also, UA probably will switch to new 77W.
------------------
On a side note, almost 50% posts are off-topic.
All posts are just opinions.
 
NichCage
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Re: Emirates Announces non stop flights to EWR

Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:30 pm

This was bound to happen at some point. Emirates will no doubt do well on non-stop DXB-EWR flights.

I wonder why it took so long for the ME3 to serve EWR. EY and QR don't serve EWR, but if they did I'm sure it would be successful for them. EK will also do well on the route. Also, did QR serve EWR in the past?

AI and UA will finally have some real competition on the EWR-India market. I'm sure they won't be impacted that badly, but EK is no doubt a strong competitor in the Indian market and might challenge them a bit.
 
Polarisguy
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Re: Emirates Announces non stop flights to EWR

Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:31 pm

adambrau wrote:
I understand that DXB is mainly connecting pax and UA doesn't fly there anymore anyway. America First doesn't apply to all industries ie air transport and that is fine because our government allowed these deals. But as a Global Services member I will never enter an Emirates cabin and Dubai (IMHO) as a creative NY downtowner seems trashier than our Vegas. But i understand my fellow country people who actually possess the braveness to travel outside our borders may be intrigued by EK. I'll stick with the friendly skies ;)


You can’t fix stupid. You must be the Poster Boy for ugly narrow minded American
Flown on DC3, 6,7,8,9,10 Conviar 440,880, Boeing 707,717,727,737,7472-3-4, Concorde, HS125, Lear23, Airbus 318,319,320,330 YS11, Saab340, Short 330,360, Cessna 150,172,177,210,310,340,421
 
Bricktop
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Re: Emirates Announces non stop flights to EWR

Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:31 pm

When I reflect on some of the posts I have had that have been deleted, it is amazing to me that such a blatant troll post stood, and so many rose to the bait.

Now back on aviation, I am glad to see EK going non-stop to DXB from EWR, and gladder that it's an a.m. flight. I will likely never take it, but I have many blank spaces in my logbook for EK 777s and hopefully this will check off many.
 
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airzim
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Re: Emirates Announces non stop flights to EWR

Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:32 pm

Arion640 wrote:
airzim wrote:
Galwayman wrote:
Really wish EK would operate Lon > NYC

BA is just as dreadful as the US3 these days :-(


EK is over-rated.

Unless you're flying First or the A380 (which can't fly to EWR), avoid EK

2-3-2 Business Class on 777s.

Angled flat J for most of the rest of the fleet (although lie flat is coming slowly).

3-4-3 in Econ.

Lousy FFP.

Sounds like luxury!


Yes but if they did start LON-NYC it would certainly be on an A380.

And hmmmm, what other carriers have 3-4-3 on the 777....hmmmm, oh the US3 maybe?


The point is, EK is not that special. Certainly not more so than and US3 or European carrier.

And as for UA and AA, the majority of their fleet is still 3-3-3 in Y. And with a Y+ product on the way, unlike over hyped EK.
 
dmstorm22
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Re: Emirates Announces non stop flights to EWR

Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:32 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
The big looser here will be star alliance. Lots of traffic from ewr-india.

EK has been so over serving JFK for years, we all expected something to happen with that crazy operation. I wouldn't be surprised if we still see one of those non-stops change to a stop in Europe.


I doubt it. Both UA and AI have loyal passengers. UA has its own premium passengers and AI followers pay for direct service to AMD, non-stop to Mumbai, with onward connections.

AI EWR-LHR-AMD seems to be 17hrs, EK-EWR-DXB-AMD will 22 to 26 hrs. No match.

If these passengers are just price sensitive, EK can offer lowest tickets on existing EWR-ATH-DXB-India to capture this market.

Also, UA probably will switch to new 77W.
------------------
On a side note, almost 50% posts are off-topic.


Yeah, I think UA will be fine. There may be some that are price sensitive, but this is also one of the richest South Asian communities in the US, potentially less price sensitive than most. If they were so price sensitive, they were probably crossing the bridges and going to JFK and taking EK anyway.

I actually think the real story here is EK cutting capacity to NYC, which is pretty staggering.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Emirates Announces non stop flights to EWR

Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:01 pm

dmstorm22 wrote:
...
I actually think the real story here is EK cutting capacity to NYC, which is pretty staggering.


Maybe EK is fed up with JFK.
All posts are just opinions.
 
airbazar
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Re: Emirates Announces non stop flights to EWR

Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:55 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
I doubt it. Both UA and AI have loyal passengers. UA has its own premium passengers and AI followers pay for direct service to AMD, non-stop to Mumbai, with onward connections.

Both DL and AA had/have loyal passengers too. What happened to their non-stop routes to India? I hope I'm wrong but think UA's routes are in big trouble. I fully expect UA to do what DL and AA did which is to funnel their traffic thru their European partners. AI not so much because the Indian government will continue to prop up the airline and NYC is just too much of a prestige destination for them.
 
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adambrau
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Re: Emirates Announces non stop flights to EWR

Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:56 pm

dz09 wrote:
adambrau wrote:
I understand that DXB is mainly connecting pax and UA doesn't fly there anymore anyway. America First doesn't apply to all industries ie air transport and that is fine because our government allowed these deals. But as a Global Services member I will never enter an Emirates cabin and Dubai (IMHO) as a creative NY downtowner seems trashier than our Vegas. But i understand my fellow country people who actually possess the braveness to travel outside our borders may be intrigued by EK. I'll stick with the friendly skies ;)


Global Services? if you were paying for your own tickets, I'm sure you'll consider EK or any other airlines offering a better value. As to the friendly Skies airline, it is also my preferred airline and I'll soon be a two million miler with them. However, I'm tired of transiting through Europe everytime I need to go to the UAE. I wish UA would consider a direct flight to Dubai from Newark. With the new Polaris service, I'm sure they can give EK a run for their money.

your characterization of Dubai is simply not fair or correct!


OK my posting may have been a little strong in it's opinion.

Just a couple of comments on myself:

1. Yes I am GS on UA and I travel for leisure only. I pay for my tickets.
2. I travel mostly internationally from NYC and was educated in the UK and France - I've been to Afghanistan, Egypt, Indonesia amongst others although my normal travel patterns are Switzerland HongKong and London.
3. Correct I have never been to Dubai but I have several good friends who have lived there and absolutely found it abhorrent. While I trust their judgement, I know that opinions are subjective and people are free to have their own opinions which I accept and respect.
4. I think some posters here have difficulty with the concept of the term "facetious".
5. I'll stick to my choice of never entering an EK cabin, because I can!



Adam
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Arion640
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Re: Emirates Announces non stop flights to EWR

Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:08 pm

airzim wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
airzim wrote:

EK is over-rated.

Unless you're flying First or the A380 (which can't fly to EWR), avoid EK

2-3-2 Business Class on 777s.

Angled flat J for most of the rest of the fleet (although lie flat is coming slowly).

3-4-3 in Econ.

Lousy FFP.

Sounds like luxury!


Yes but if they did start LON-NYC it would certainly be on an A380.

And hmmmm, what other carriers have 3-4-3 on the 777....hmmmm, oh the US3 maybe?


The point is, EK is not that special. Certainly not more so than and US3 or European carrier.

And as for UA and AA, the majority of their fleet is still 3-3-3 in Y. And with a Y+ product on the way, unlike over hyped EK.


Yeah 3-3-3 for the 787 fleets. When the polaris refits for UA are complete, I was under the impression all 747's would be 3-4-3 while Americans 777's already are. I've now found out delta are still 3-3-3 so you can win that one.

EK don't need a Y+ At this stage as most don't object to spending a few hours in A380 with great service and great crew. Another reason for lack of Y+ is that EK believe it may cannabalise their highly succesful Business Product. Emirates are Far superior than any US carrier will ever be and a ME3 carrier will always be my first choice to go East from europe in economy.

Have you actually flown Emirates?
 
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neomax
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Re: Emirates Announces non stop flights to EWR

Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:27 am

airbazar wrote:
I hope I'm wrong but think UA's routes are in big trouble. I fully expect UA to do what DL and AA did which is to funnel their traffic thru their European partners.


Reasons why UA’s routes are not in trouble:

1. UA has massive EWR feed.
2. EK does not.
3. UA has a nonstop advantage to the Indian pop that it targets.
4. EK does not change this.
5. DEL and BOM have proven to be wildly successful in spite of EK entering EWR, AI also having a nonstop from EWR, and competition at JFK.
6. UA’s India flights have not targeted any other pop besides the Indian population; EK may prove to be popular with other parts of South Asia but this has a virtually nonexistent impact on UA as they never served these regions from EWR to begin with.
 
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adambrau
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Re: Emirates Announces non stop flights to EWR

Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:36 am

Polarisguy wrote:
adambrau wrote:
I understand that DXB is mainly connecting pax and UA doesn't fly there anymore anyway. America First doesn't apply to all industries ie air transport and that is fine because our government allowed these deals. But as a Global Services member I will never enter an Emirates cabin and Dubai (IMHO) as a creative NY downtowner seems trashier than our Vegas. But i understand my fellow country people who actually possess the braveness to travel outside our borders may be intrigued by EK. I'll stick with the friendly skies ;)


You can’t fix stupid. You must be the Poster Boy for ugly narrow minded American


It's so easy to wind people up in here lol.
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Varsity1
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Re: Emirates Announces non stop flights to EWR

Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:46 am

LAX772LR wrote:
DaveFly wrote:
I guess fearing the UAE makes me a racist. My bad.

Nah, just highly irrational and clearly inexperienced.

If you feel safe in a country where mass shootings are a "meh" (had four already this week, one of them being a school)... then you certainly have nothing to fear about the UAE.

But you'd need education, or even just a general sense of awareness, to know that...


Nothing to fear, like blatant slave labor conditions and human rights violations? Yeah dubai is great.. if you're a white male.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
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longhauler
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Re: Emirates Announces non stop flights to EWR

Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:47 am

adambrau wrote:
Polarisguy wrote:
adambrau wrote:
I understand that DXB is mainly connecting pax and UA doesn't fly there anymore anyway. America First doesn't apply to all industries ie air transport and that is fine because our government allowed these deals. But as a Global Services member I will never enter an Emirates cabin and Dubai (IMHO) as a creative NY downtowner seems trashier than our Vegas. But i understand my fellow country people who actually possess the braveness to travel outside our borders may be intrigued by EK. I'll stick with the friendly skies ;)


You can’t fix stupid. You must be the Poster Boy for ugly narrow minded American


It's so easy to wind people up in here lol.

In my opinion, I think a lot of (most) people on here missed the point of your post.

Racism/xenophobia aside, odds are that the sentiment that you state is shared by the majority of Americans. And, let's face it, if any route to and from the US that EK flies is to be successful, it has to be filled with Americans. That being the case then ... how does EK combat the type of thinking stated above?

It is like when DL linked the ME3 to September 11th. Of course, it is a ludicrous suggestion ... but it did plant the seed and there is no more patriotic bunch than Americans!
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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Irehdna
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Re: Emirates Announces non stop flights to EWR

Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:50 am

Interestingly, IIRC all other EK USA routes were initially launched on A345 or 77L. The fact that they are starting directly with the 77W must show EK's promise with the NJ market.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Emirates Announces non stop flights to EWR

Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:50 am

airbazar wrote:
Both DL and AA had/have loyal passengers too. What happened to their non-stop routes to India? I hope I'm wrong but think UA's routes are in big trouble. I fully expect UA to do what DL and AA did which is to funnel their traffic thru their European partners. AI not so much because the Indian government will continue to prop up the airline and NYC is just too much of a prestige destination for them.


DL rightfully so operates only routes with double-digit margins. It is their revenue management model. India ULH route is not a double-digit margin routes. DL gets $300-$400 as interline pass-thru on existing domestic service. Now getting AMS/CDG/LHR feeds from 9W on exiting TATL service. It is making money without lifting a finger. Why waste expensive ULH equipment and crew with unreasonable rest periods on a 1-4% margin route.

And the infamous half-hearted single attempt by AA to India which is always blamed on AI. Chapter 11 is a bigger reason than AI. Apart from AI, EK, QR, EY, TK, BA, LH all are offering service to India. Five are state-owned carriers. TK offers some of the lowest prices.

UA doesn't look for that kind of margins. Old 772s are relatively cheap to operate.
All posts are just opinions.
 
Cunard
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Re: Emirates Announces non stop flights to EWR

Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:10 am

PW100 wrote:
DWC wrote:
That is still 5 daily WB flights into & out of NYC ( about half what they have for London ), pretty amazing as it is ULH, just like CX...

Haven't been counting lately, but I expect the amount of LON - NYC WB flights to be closer to 20 (perhaps even 25) than 10. BA alone is flying 13 daily round trips. Add in AA, VS, DL, UA, and probably another couple of airlines, that's way more than your "double-five" . . .

But I do agree with your point in that 5 times daily (inl\clsuing A380s) is still pretty amazing capacity on such a long route.


He wasn't referring to the total amount of transatlantic flights between LHR and JFK!

He was referring to the fact that EK have five flights a day into the New York area with 4 daily flights into JFK and the 1 daily flight into EWR which is half the amount of flights that are flown daily from Dubai to London with EK with LHR at 6 daily flights, LGW at 3 daily flights and STN with a 1 daily flight.
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
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adambrau
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Re: Emirates Announces non stop flights to EWR

Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:32 am

longhauler wrote:
adambrau wrote:
Polarisguy wrote:

You can’t fix stupid. You must be the Poster Boy for ugly narrow minded American


It's so easy to wind people up in here lol.

In my opinion, I think a lot of (most) people on here missed the point of your post.

Racism/xenophobia aside, odds are that the sentiment that you state is shared by the majority of Americans. And, let's face it, if any route to and from the US that EK flies is to be successful, it has to be filled with Americans. That being the case then ... how does EK combat the type of thinking stated above?

It is like when DL linked the ME3 to September 11th. Of course, it is a ludicrous suggestion ... but it did plant the seed and there is no more patriotic bunch than Americans!


Yeah I think I just graduated from wallflower to hated but as they say, it's better to be talked about ;)

The USA has a very open policy to allowing foreign carriers entry and Trump isn't going to change anything. It's actually one way we're not hypocritical in government policy. And obviously it helps Boeing.

I don't hate EK anymore than anyone else, or love it anymore. I just won't fly with them unless they are the only option. Since EWR is the closest NYC airport for me and I am close to 3 million miles UA makes most sense to me. Also, may be irrational but I feel UA cockpit crews are more experienced - ie safer.

EK seems to do well enough in the USA despite proposed travel bans from some countries or temporary laptop bans for security reasons. I guess EK needs to keep up it's stellar advertising and PR, sort of like UA needs to make people think EWR is just as NYC as JFK. Neither seems to be doing too badly. If you take EK's 2 new daily flights it would seem that EWR is the NYC growth point, but that might open up another beat-to-death argument ;)

My opinion of course but Dubai will never be a destination I covet.

Adam
JFK Friendly
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Emirates Announces non stop flights to EWR

Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:41 am

longhauler wrote:
...
It is like when DL linked the ME3 to September 11th. Of course, it is a ludicrous suggestion ... but it did plant the seed and there is no more patriotic bunch than Americans!


Just to be clear, RA said it originated from that region. Valid statement. ME3 PR took on themselves.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Emirates Announces non stop flights to EWR

Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:25 am

aviationaware wrote:
Not surprising, but interesting to see that they are dropping one JFK rotation for it.

That sums it up. I read every post on the thread and:
1. I too wondered by EWR wasn't served earlier. Seriously, someone please explain it to me.
2. I thought JFK was doing well enough serving multiple waves. Huh... I'll have to think about this.

EK thrives on the network effect. The top regional competitor should have been AI, but when AI opted to almost ignore international to international connections, a huge opportunity was forfeited to EK.

The other enabler was European hubs going protectionist instead of expansionist. No credit for shooting yourself in the foot.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
LH658
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Re: Emirates Announces non stop flights to EWR

Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:44 am

EK has fantastic product in economy compare to the US3. One best IFE in the industry, food not bad, actually good amount, and slightly better legroom. DXB not bad airport to wander around for couple hours.

EK business class sucks, 2-3-2 unless your in the A380. The lounges in DXB aren't bad.

If your QF member then EK nice option, as your earn QF points, as well as your One World member.

Seem EK went to EWR to diversify there traffic, giving UA some little competition.

South Asian/Asian pax are not worried about direct routes, unless they want to pay for it. Most of them love QR, EK, and EY.

UA should fear a bit, as EK has there own reputable image, and so does Dubai. Tons people flock there from around the world now for vacation etc.
EK can offer cheaper prices, and passengers follow EK, then UA in trouble.

I remember when EK started to EWR via ATH, UA made big fit.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/tedreed/20 ... 4dd824649c

Plus EK pull connections from Canada with Porter airlines.
 
LH658
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Re: Emirates Announces non stop flights to EWR

Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:45 am

QR use to serve Newark, then move to JFK.
 
DaufuskieGuy
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Re: Emirates Announces non stop flights to EWR

Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:54 am

Arion640 wrote:
airzim wrote:
Galwayman wrote:
Really wish EK would operate Lon > NYC

BA is just as dreadful as the US3 these days :-(


EK is over-rated.

Unless you're flying First or the A380 (which can't fly to EWR), avoid EK

2-3-2 Business Class on 777s.

Angled flat J for most of the rest of the fleet (although lie flat is coming slowly).

3-4-3 in Econ.

Lousy FFP.

Sounds like luxury!


Yes but if they did start LON-NYC it would certainly be on an A380.

And hmmmm, what other carriers have 3-4-3 on the 777....hmmmm, oh the US3 maybe?


would starting NYC LON require US/UK approval or just the necessary slots?
 
VTORD
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Re: Emirates Announces non stop flights to EWR

Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:07 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
Both UA and AI have loyal passengers. UA has its own premium passengers and AI followers pay for direct service to AMD, non-stop to Mumbai, with onward connections.

AI EWR-LHR-AMD seems to be 17hrs, EK-EWR-DXB-AMD will 22 to 26 hrs.
------------------
On a side note, almost 50% posts are off-topic.


My understanding of the timings is that they are anyways not suitable for AMD. BOM and DEL are the chief beneficiaries here. I think this will dove tail nicely in to the EK 502/503 pairing out of BOM

neomax wrote:

Reasons why UA’s routes are not in trouble:

1. UA has massive EWR feed.
2. EK does not.
3. UA has a nonstop advantage to the Indian pop that it targets.
4. EK does not change this.
5. DEL and BOM have proven to be wildly successful in spite of EK entering EWR, AI also having a nonstop from EWR, and competition at JFK.
6. UA’s India flights have not targeted any other pop besides the Indian population; EK may prove to be popular with other parts of South Asia but this has a virtually nonexistent impact on UA as they never served these regions from EWR to begin with.


+1
 
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usxguy
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Re: Emirates Announces non stop flights to EWR

Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:13 am

I've flown all 3 classes of service on EK, mostly in F though. J is NOT horrible. Its quite nice, the huge TVs are great, and lots of drink choices. I also got a mojito flying in F on EK. *WITH* MINT LEAVES. Y, done a few long hauls on both A380 and the 777s. It was tolerable. Seats fairly comfy for horrible width.

EK is lightyears ahead of anyone flying 787s across the pond, and much better than the US3 on longhaul. This comes from someone who has actually flown longhaul in a variety of classes... its a good product. (disclosure: last longhaul was in DL - J cabin 767-400 from FRA).
xx
 
dlphoenix
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Re: Emirates Announces non stop flights to EWR

Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:29 am

So much prejudice in one thread.
EK is not the holly grail, but it is certainly not the evil empire either.

1) The die hard UA FFs will mostly stay loyal to UA
2) Anybody traveling for business (in paid business) to cities in India, China, Africa and the middle east not served by UA/LH / LX /SN / ET / OZ / CA will consider EK if served directly from DXB (e.g Pune, CCU, COK)
3) Some VFR travel to India will shift from JFK to EWR as long as the fares stay competitive
4) I hope this will drive either UA or TK to start EWR-IST to improve access to destinations not named TLV in the middle east.
 
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Irehdna
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Re: Emirates Announces non stop flights to EWR

Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:39 am

IMO UA will be fine. UA generally is priced higher than AI from EWR. Even UA EWR-DEL is generally more fare than AI JFK-DEL. United has a strong FF and premium base at EWR and they get a lot of passengers from connections.

Air India EWR-LHR-AMD should be fine too as it was pointed out that EWR-DXB-AMD on EK requires a long layover.

I however think AI EWR-BOM nonstop is the biggest loser here. AI is already competing with UA, which has a stronger base within the USA and a hub at EWR. AI only has a focus city at BOM (not a true hub) so there is not much connecting traffic at BOM versus AI's other flights at DEL. AI already is focused on VFR and they are already undercutting UA to get passengers to fly them. AI's other US nonstops survive with coexistence of ME3 well because there is no direct nonstop competition and these flights connect at DEL, which offers several more connections to Indian cities than BOM.

AI already offers EWR-LHR-BOM connectivity via AI172 and AI130. This normally shows up as one of the cheapest options to travel to BOM from EWR/JFK.

Additionally, one can take EK224 EWR-DXB and EK506 DXB-BOM, which leaves EWR at 1150 and arrives in BOM at 1400+1. Like AI, this means you don't have a full workday in USA before travelling to India. On UA, you still would, so many business travellers will still continue to use UA.
 
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adambrau
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Re: Emirates Announces non stop flights to EWR

Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:42 am

LH658 wrote:
EK has fantastic product in economy compare to the US3. One best IFE in the industry, food not bad, actually good amount, and slightly better legroom. DXB not bad airport to wander around for couple hours.

EK business class sucks, 2-3-2 unless your in the A380. The lounges in DXB aren't bad.

If your QF member then EK nice option, as your earn QF points, as well as your One World member.

Seem EK went to EWR to diversify there traffic, giving UA some little competition.

South Asian/Asian pax are not worried about direct routes, unless they want to pay for it. Most of them love QR, EK, and EY.

UA should fear a bit, as EK has there own reputable image, and so does Dubai. Tons people flock there from around the world now for vacation etc.
EK can offer cheaper prices, and passengers follow EK, then UA in trouble.

I remember when EK started to EWR via ATH, UA made big fit.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/tedreed/20 ... 4dd824649c

Plus EK pull connections from Canada with Porter airlines.


Everyone knows that EK has better everything than UA ;)

But if you are a US citizen living in a UA hub chances are flying UA will be a more realistic option. Especially if you fly a lot. If you have GS and Global Entry and TSA Pre-check then you can arrive 20 minutes before departure at EWR and still make the flight. That is hard to beat.

If you have nothing then you can fly NYC on EK to ATH MXP DXB and onward to India/ME/SouthAsia/Africa, but that doesn't bite into the most lucrative markets like NYC - LHR/FRA/BRU/AMS/ZRH/GVA/MUC/TLV/TYO/HKG etc...

I suspect UA will lose some business out of EWR with this new EK route, but nothing life-altering.

Anyone know how EWR-ATH is doing during these winter months?

I'm not sure how one quantifies 'tons' of people flocking to Dubai - I mean if you can't kiss on the beach how great can it be hehe...

Finally, Canadians would rather shoot themselves than connecting in the USA to an onward international destination or vice versa. The US CBP doesn't encourage international connections. I'm a dual citizen and generally most Canadians I know avoid transferring Canada-USA-Wherever and vv.
JFK Friendly
 
AAvgeek744
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Re: Emirates Announces non stop flights to EWR

Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:50 am

Arion640 wrote:
adambrau wrote:
I understand that DXB is mainly connecting pax and UA doesn't fly there anymore anyway. America First doesn't apply to all industries ie air transport and that is fine because our government allowed these deals. But as a Global Services member I will never enter an Emirates cabin and Dubai (IMHO) as a creative NY downtowner seems trashier than our Vegas. But i understand my fellow country people who actually possess the braveness to travel outside our borders may be intrigued by EK. I'll stick with the friendly skies ;)


I've never understood comments like this, you're entitled to your opinion ofcourse, but just don't get why people hate airlines like EK. Dubai is certainly not trashier, you haven't even been by the sounds of it? There are certainly a lot more dodgy things going on in new york than dubai...

I live in the UK and I'm no way loyal to British Airways one bit.


I agree with the original poster. EK is nothing special. SQ, CX, and other carriers offer better service. Also, Dubai is a gaudy, over developed mess to try and impress the world. Have you been? How many of those gigantic skyscrapers are see-throughs? A lot. It is, as mentioned, Las Vegas without the full freedoms allowed in many cities. Not to mention DXB, while certainly nice looking, is an absolute nightmare, particularly during the 02:00 bank of flights. I go out of my way to avoid it.
 
LH658
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Re: Emirates Announces non stop flights to EWR

Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:26 am

Not saying Dubai, where it at... Though just mentioning some benefits of EK. I keep Qantas card, come in handy cause I can earn AA miles plus EK.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Emirates Announces non stop flights to EWR

Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:33 am

Varsity1 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
DaveFly wrote:
I guess fearing the UAE makes me a racist. My bad.

Nah, just highly irrational and clearly inexperienced.

If you feel safe in a country where mass shootings are a "meh" (had four already this week, one of them being a school)... then you certainly have nothing to fear about the UAE.

But you'd need education, or even just a general sense of awareness, to know that...


Nothing to fear, like blatant slave labor conditions and human rights violations? Yeah dubai is great.. if you're a white male.

But then you have your retarded "Right to Work (for less)" states that would do the exact same thing, if they could get away with it.... so again, what exactly do you fear?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Arion640
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Re: Emirates Announces non stop flights to EWR

Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:58 am

AAvgeek744 wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
adambrau wrote:
I understand that DXB is mainly connecting pax and UA doesn't fly there anymore anyway. America First doesn't apply to all industries ie air transport and that is fine because our government allowed these deals. But as a Global Services member I will never enter an Emirates cabin and Dubai (IMHO) as a creative NY downtowner seems trashier than our Vegas. But i understand my fellow country people who actually possess the braveness to travel outside our borders may be intrigued by EK. I'll stick with the friendly skies ;)


I've never understood comments like this, you're entitled to your opinion ofcourse, but just don't get why people hate airlines like EK. Dubai is certainly not trashier, you haven't even been by the sounds of it? There are certainly a lot more dodgy things going on in new york than dubai...

I live in the UK and I'm no way loyal to British Airways one bit.


I agree with the original poster. EK is nothing special. SQ, CX, and other carriers offer better service. Also, Dubai is a gaudy, over developed mess to try and impress the world. Have you been? How many of those gigantic skyscrapers are see-throughs? A lot. It is, as mentioned, Las Vegas without the full freedoms allowed in many cities. Not to mention DXB, while certainly nice looking, is an absolute nightmare, particularly during the 02:00 bank of flights. I go out of my way to avoid it.


Yes I have been to Dubai - 3 times infact. Great city, stayed in a great hotel with great hospitality and staff each time. I also feel safer in Dubai then I ever have in any U S city.
 
worldranger
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Re: Emirates Announces non stop flights to EWR

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:48 am

adambrau wrote:
LH658 wrote:
EK has fantastic product in economy compare to the US3. One best IFE in the industry, food not bad, actually good amount, and slightly better legroom. DXB not bad airport to wander around for couple hours.

EK business class sucks, 2-3-2 unless your in the A380. The lounges in DXB aren't bad.

If your QF member then EK nice option, as your earn QF points, as well as your One World member.

Seem EK went to EWR to diversify there traffic, giving UA some little competition.

South Asian/Asian pax are not worried about direct routes, unless they want to pay for it. Most of them love QR, EK, and EY.

UA should fear a bit, as EK has there own reputable image, and so does Dubai. Tons people flock there from around the world now for vacation etc.
EK can offer cheaper prices, and passengers follow EK, then UA in trouble.

I remember when EK started to EWR via ATH, UA made big fit.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/tedreed/20 ... 4dd824649c

Plus EK pull connections from Canada with Porter airlines.


Everyone knows that EK has better everything than UA ;)

But if you are a US citizen living in a UA hub chances are flying UA will be a more realistic option. Especially if you fly a lot. If you have GS and Global Entry and TSA Pre-check then you can arrive 20 minutes before departure at EWR and still make the flight. That is hard to beat.

If you have nothing then you can fly NYC on EK to ATH MXP DXB and onward to India/ME/SouthAsia/Africa, but that doesn't bite into the most lucrative markets like NYC - LHR/FRA/BRU/AMS/ZRH/GVA/MUC/TLV/TYO/HKG etc...

I suspect UA will lose some business out of EWR with this new EK route, but nothing life-altering.

Anyone know how EWR-ATH is doing during these winter months?

I'm not sure how one quantifies 'tons' of people flocking to Dubai - I mean if you can't kiss on the beach how great can it be hehe...

Finally, Canadians would rather shoot themselves than connecting in the USA to an onward international destination or vice versa. The US CBP doesn't encourage international connections. I'm a dual citizen and generally most Canadians I know avoid transferring Canada-USA-Wherever and vv.


I’ve lived in both the Dubai and NYC amongst a number of others in Asia, Europe & US.

Your ignorance is embarrassing. You haven’t even been to Dubai - reviewing a book you’ve never read. It’s actually a great place to raise kids, very safe & assuming kids are in one of the better schools - excellent education. Whenever friends visit, they leave completely won over as they get to see the city from someone who first went to Dubai in 2004.

Back to EK, I travelled J on the newest (BRU) product, and in the middle seat. It’s a huge improvement, very nice and in a away the middle seat protects you from aisle ‘wake turbulence’ from heavy footed pax/crew. Not as good as 2-2-2 but IMO they need to roll this product out quicker & retrofit the old seat as it’s just not competitive anymore in today’s market. The new cabin has very lush feel. UAs plastic blue J which I travelled on from SIN to SFO is pretty drab.
 
LH658
Posts: 1198
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Re: Emirates Announces non stop flights to EWR

Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:23 am

worldranger wrote:
adambrau wrote:
LH658 wrote:
EK has fantastic product in economy compare to the US3. One best IFE in the industry, food not bad, actually good amount, and slightly better legroom. DXB not bad airport to wander around for couple hours.

EK business class sucks, 2-3-2 unless your in the A380. The lounges in DXB aren't bad.

If your QF member then EK nice option, as your earn QF points, as well as your One World member.

Seem EK went to EWR to diversify there traffic, giving UA some little competition.

South Asian/Asian pax are not worried about direct routes, unless they want to pay for it. Most of them love QR, EK, and EY.

UA should fear a bit, as EK has there own reputable image, and so does Dubai. Tons people flock there from around the world now for vacation etc.
EK can offer cheaper prices, and passengers follow EK, then UA in trouble.

I remember when EK started to EWR via ATH, UA made big fit.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/tedreed/20 ... 4dd824649c

Plus EK pull connections from Canada with Porter airlines.


Everyone knows that EK has better everything than UA ;)

But if you are a US citizen living in a UA hub chances are flying UA will be a more realistic option. Especially if you fly a lot. If you have GS and Global Entry and TSA Pre-check then you can arrive 20 minutes before departure at EWR and still make the flight. That is hard to beat.

If you have nothing then you can fly NYC on EK to ATH MXP DXB and onward to India/ME/SouthAsia/Africa, but that doesn't bite into the most lucrative markets like NYC - LHR/FRA/BRU/AMS/ZRH/GVA/MUC/TLV/TYO/HKG etc...

I suspect UA will lose some business out of EWR with this new EK route, but nothing life-altering.

Anyone know how EWR-ATH is doing during these winter months?

I'm not sure how one quantifies 'tons' of people flocking to Dubai - I mean if you can't kiss on the beach how great can it be hehe...

Finally, Canadians would rather shoot themselves than connecting in the USA to an onward international destination or vice versa. The US CBP doesn't encourage international connections. I'm a dual citizen and generally most Canadians I know avoid transferring Canada-USA-Wherever and vv.


I’ve lived in both the Dubai and NYC amongst a number of others in Asia, Europe & US.

Your ignorance is embarrassing. You haven’t even been to Dubai - reviewing a book you’ve never read. It’s actually a great place to raise kids, very safe & assuming kids are in one of the better schools - excellent education. Whenever friends visit, they leave completely won over as they get to see the city from someone who first went to Dubai in 2004.

Back to EK, I travelled J on the newest (BRU) product, and in the middle seat. It’s a huge improvement, very nice and in a away the middle seat protects you from aisle ‘wake turbulence’ from heavy footed pax/crew. Not as good as 2-2-2 but IMO they need to roll this product out quicker & retrofit the old seat as it’s just not competitive anymore in today’s market. The new cabin has very lush feel. UAs plastic blue J which I travelled on from SIN to SFO is pretty drab.



Sir, I never said anything bad about Dubai, been visiting there since the 90's.
 
dmstorm22
Posts: 614
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Re: Emirates Announces non stop flights to EWR

Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:37 am

airbazar wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
I doubt it. Both UA and AI have loyal passengers. UA has its own premium passengers and AI followers pay for direct service to AMD, non-stop to Mumbai, with onward connections.

Both DL and AA had/have loyal passengers too. What happened to their non-stop routes to India? I hope I'm wrong but think UA's routes are in big trouble. I fully expect UA to do what DL and AA did which is to funnel their traffic thru their European partners. AI not so much because the Indian government will continue to prop up the airline and NYC is just too much of a prestige destination for them.



Both AA and DL's non-stop routes to India were cut well before the ME3 became real players in the US, though DL would have you believe otherwise given that anti-ME3 employee video they put out a while back.
 
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MillwallSean
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Re: Emirates Announces non stop flights to EWR

Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:17 am

Ah finally we see the Patel express starting, direct from New Jersey to "Amdabad". Great for the Patels.
Seriously I am surprised EK havent started this earilier it has seemed like the no brainer for quite sometime. Should do well, but as most have already said, VFR reliant routes are always price sensitive. With that said, not much one stop competition and for most passengers EK is already a known quantity.

I really dont get how certain posters can have absolute opinions about places they have never seen nor visited?
I cant say Dubai is my favourite place. But that doesn't mean its a bad place. Its safe, secure, modern and well a tad soulless like all "new" cities. It is however, a giant success story.. We can just bow our heads and admire what the ruling family has done with Dubai. Absolutely amazing transformation. Good on them.
No One Likes Us - We Dont Care.
 
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ojjunior
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Re: Emirates Announces non stop flights to EWR

Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:23 am

I loved this topic that has nothing to do with aviation and all these academic and smart opinions based on deep studies and philosophical research.
I hope the members of Swedish Academy are reading all this and discussing which of these brilliant minds will receive the next Nobel Prize.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: Emirates Announces non stop flights to EWR

Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:26 pm

Your ignorance is embarrassing. You haven’t even been to Dubai - reviewing a book you’ve never read. It’s actually a great place to raise kids, very safe & assuming kids are in one of the better schools - excellent education. Whenever friends visit, they leave completely won over as they get to see the city from someone who first went to Dubai in 2004.
.[/quote]

Head of a gay family here. I ask seriously, not in jest, would it be a great place to raise my kids?

When challenging ignorant posts, no need to morph reality to expose ignorance of the OP. I'm sure Dubai is a fine city, and you are rightfully angry about ignorant viewpoints. But when you challenge those viewpoints with another alternate reality, it emboldens the ignorant claims.
 
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STT757
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Re: Emirates Announces non stop flights to EWR

Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:43 pm

Just a couple of points to try and get things back on topic:

EWR had the region's first nonstop flight to Dubai, MH flew KUL-DXB-EWR for many years with a 772ER before switching to ARN and going with the 744. Also EWR was QR's first NY destination, they flew DOH-GVA-EWR with an A330 before switching to JFK and going nonstop.

EWR has tremendous growth opportunities for traffic to India, the Indian American community in New Jersey is not just growing but thriving. The first Sikh Mayor in New Jersey has just taken office in Hoboken, and the new Attorney General of New Jersey is the first Sikh Attorney General in the US.

I think EK entering EWR may bring forward any plans UA may have to upgrade EWR-BOM/DEL to 77Ws, and to perhaps bring forward plans to grow to places like Bangalore, Chennai and Hyderabad which were previously identified by CO management before the merger as opportunities for their 787s.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: Emirates Announces non stop flights to EWR

Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:58 pm

There’s no way UA adds secondary India.

Those plans go back to Continental in a different time and a different place.

I’m not saying EK is going to chase them off the nonstop route, But United would be doing what nobody else has done successfully in adding More India.
 
Arion640
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Re: Emirates Announces non stop flights to EWR

Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:23 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
Your ignorance is embarrassing. You haven’t even been to Dubai - reviewing a book you’ve never read. It’s actually a great place to raise kids, very safe & assuming kids are in one of the better schools - excellent education. Whenever friends visit, they leave completely won over as they get to see the city from someone who first went to Dubai in 2004.
.


Head of a gay family here. I ask seriously, not in jest, would it be a great place to raise my kids?

When challenging ignorant posts, no need to morph reality to expose ignorance of the OP. I'm sure Dubai is a fine city, and you are rightfully angry about ignorant viewpoints. But when you challenge those viewpoints with another alternate reality, it emboldens the ignorant claims.[/quote]

One thing I like about Dubai is the way many nationalities can mix without racism or hate issues.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8411
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Re: Emirates Announces non stop flights to EWR

Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:23 pm

Poaching from UA/AI's EWR-India theory is a bit rich because EK has no spare Dubai-India capacity. India a few days ago said no for the 99th time to additional seats.
All posts are just opinions.
 
jayunited
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Re: Emirates Announces non stop flights to EWR

Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:34 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
There’s no way UA adds secondary India.

Those plans go back to Continental in a different time and a different place.

I’m not saying EK is going to chase them off the nonstop route, But United would be doing what nobody else has done successfully in adding More India.


AI has added more India I don't know how successful they are but they have added them. However I do agree that at this time I don't see UA adding more flights to India but that could change at some point in the future if these Star Alliance partners could ever get it together and work more closely together.

For people who are saying UA's India flights are in trouble I disagree, CO and now UA's India routes have survived the rise of the ME3 in this country and the reason the ME3 have become a force to be reckoned with is because customers traveling to India wanted a hassle free option and connecting in Europe was a hassle and expensive. Connecting at DXB was less of a hassle and it was cheaper. But what is more hassle free than a nonstop? This is how CO and now UA have survived on this route in spite of the ME3's dominance on U.S. -India routes. UA is by no means the cheapest fare to India but passengers are willing to pay UA's prices to bypass Europe and DXB. EK's EWR-DXB route will not change this dynamic.
Also we have AI that has added nonstop flights to both SFO and IAD in recent years and although I have no idea if these routes are profitable for AI from what has been posted on forums like a-netters other sites like this one people claim AI is at least achieving decent load factors. If it is true that in itself could suggest that U.S. - India passengers want access to more nonstop flights not more flights forcing them to connect in Europe or the Middle East.
 
dmstorm22
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Re: Emirates Announces non stop flights to EWR

Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:43 pm

jayunited wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
But what is more hassle free than a nonstop? This is how CO and now UA have survived on this route in spite of the ME3's dominance on U.S. -India routes. UA is by no means the cheapest fare to India but passengers are willing to pay UA's prices to bypass Europe and DXB. EK's EWR-DXB route will not change this dynamic.


It's not just the fact that non-stop is preferable to 1-stop or 2-stop. If it was that, AA and DL would have been able to make non-stop to BOM or DEL work. UA has the luxury of a giant south asian population, one that has a lot of high-income individuals in it, and a good enough financial center to make there be decent front-of-the-plane demand as well (particularly to BOM),

I think UA could have made a SFO-BOM/DEL flight work for similar reasons as well, and I wouldn't be surprised if AI's DEL-SFO flight is doing well.

I agree I don't think the EK EWR-DXB flight will threaten those. I don't think there is a significant number of people taking the EWR-DEL/BOM non-stops that are price sensitive enough to switch now when they could have switched already and just crossed two bridges.
 
DaveFly
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Re: Emirates Announces non stop flights to EWR

Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:23 pm

bagoldex wrote:
DaveFly wrote:
adambrau wrote:
I understand that DXB is mainly connecting pax and UA doesn't fly there anymore anyway. America First doesn't apply to all industries ie air transport and that is fine because our government allowed these deals. But as a Global Services member I will never enter an Emirates cabin and Dubai (IMHO) as a creative NY downtowner seems trashier than our Vegas. But i understand my fellow country people who actually possess the braveness to travel outside our borders may be intrigued by EK. I'll stick with the friendly skies ;)


I agree! I just returned from Bangalore via BA and London. I cringe at the thought of transferring at some third world Arab sheikdom. And yeah, I prefer to remain in the States; plenty to see here, although Vegas ain’t my kind of place.

I guess fearing the UAE makes me a racist. My bad.


When you come to the UK, stay at Heathrow. It's bad enough to see Trump and company in the news. Nobody wants your type wandering London.


Too late! I’ve seen all the sights, done all the restaurants, had tea with the Queen. Loved every minute of the U.K., including Scotland, and everyone was very friendly :)
717,727,737,747,757,767,777,787
L1011,DC8,DC9,DC10,MD80/90
A300,A319,320,321,330,340,
CRJ,E135/45/190,
DH8,Avro85,DHBeaver,AstarHelo,F100,ATR42
 
klwright69
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Re: Emirates Announces non stop flights to EWR

Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:01 pm

One of my best friends is an avid traveler and from Manhattan. He is as "New York" as they come. In fact, he visits this forum. He is adamant that EWR is one of the New York area airports, and says it's nonsense that EWR is a different market. People have their preferences, but EWR is part of the NYC mix of airports. People in NJ that want to take EK or QR, can and do.

UA is not stupid, they were probably expecting this move anyway.

So much for New Jersey is just too low class for Emirates, and JFK is a glamour airport.

I have lived in the UAE before and I have been to Vegas. My opinion of Dubai is not relevant to this thread so i won't share it. Except, you can't really compare they two very at all. The UAE is NOT the USA and vice versa. They have little in common except lots of hotels.
 
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airzim
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Re: Emirates Announces non stop flights to EWR

Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:11 pm

Arion640 wrote:
airzim wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

Yes but if they did start LON-NYC it would certainly be on an A380.

And hmmmm, what other carriers have 3-4-3 on the 777....hmmmm, oh the US3 maybe?


The point is, EK is not that special. Certainly not more so than and US3 or European carrier.

And as for UA and AA, the majority of their fleet is still 3-3-3 in Y. And with a Y+ product on the way, unlike over hyped EK.


Yeah 3-3-3 for the 787 fleets. When the polaris refits for UA are complete, I was under the impression all 747's would be 3-4-3 while Americans 777's already are. I've now found out delta are still 3-3-3 so you can win that one.

EK don't need a Y+ At this stage as most don't object to spending a few hours in A380 with great service and great crew. Another reason for lack of Y+ is that EK believe it may cannabalise their highly succesful Business Product. Emirates are Far superior than any US carrier will ever be and a ME3 carrier will always be my first choice to go East from europe in economy.

Have you actually flown Emirates?


I've flown EK many times. First started in 1997 when they still had 727s and as recently as this summer on the A380 from MXP-JFK. Ignoring all the ugly decor, they are just ok in comfort and amenities.

Objectively, the Business class seat on any non A380 is shameful in today's market. Angled lie flat with 2-3-3 config on long haul 777s. The recent "upgrade" of their J class means the finally have flat bed seats, but still 2-3-2. That means no direct aisle access, and high density seating. 3-4-3 in Econ with no option for more comfort (Y+ or Econ +).

EK is a volume carrier, not a premium one.

United has flat bed seats on 100% of their long haul fleet today. The vast majority of their long haul 777s still have 3-3-3 in econ. I don't remember what the decision is on Econ but assuming you're right and going to 3-4-3 with Polaris refit, at least UA has Econ +, and installing Y+. So objectively better than what EK offers.

Meals are pretty standard, and the IFE is all pretty similar.

My point is not to bash EK, but point out they are not that special. They are hardly "far superior than any US carrier will ever be," Certainly not special enough to book away from UA in competitive markets. And this is coming from someone who has flown many long haul worldwide carriers over the last 20+ years. (BA, LH, AF, IB, LX, SN, SK, MS, AT, SA, ET, AI, 9W, EK, QR, TK, UL, WY, SQ, TG, MH, CX, CA, CI, BR, QF, NZ, UA, AA, DL, JL, NH, OZ, KE, AC, EI, AY, LA, etc.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Emirates Announces non stop flights to EWR

Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:16 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
Does this mean the ATH-EWR-ATH segment gets dropped (it never made any sense, though it was the only year-round nonstop to ATH from the US as all other services (PHL, JFK, EWR) are all seasonal. Interesting to see them drop one A380 at JFK for this flight and will be even more interesting to see what pricing pressure this may exert on the UA/AI nonstop flights.


That is staying. EK is going double daily to Newark. This flight is timed to meet the morning bank of flights out of Dubai. This also makes economic sense because it reduces costs for EK into the market (previously the market got 4 A388s and 1 B77W---now it will be 3 A388s and 1 B77W, and I wonder if the one via Milan should go back to being a B77W. Then again, last year, Emirates carried nearly a million passengers on the route to Dubai just from JFK, meaning it can fill the planes. This might also force UA to improve its product on the nonstops to India, either with a B77W or making EWR a new B789 crew base and putting that on the line.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8411
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Emirates Announces non stop flights to EWR

Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:33 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
I wonder if the one via Milan should go back to being a B77W. Then again, last year, Emirates carried nearly a million passengers on the route to Dubai just from JFK, meaning it can fill the planes.

You mean by selling two JFK-MXP RTs for $399 during valentines day or rest of the year? Switching to 77W will lose bargain hunting backpacker lovebirds.

aemoreira1981 wrote:
This might also force UA to improve its product on the nonstops to India, either with a B77W or making EWR a new B789 crew base and putting that on the line.

That is for sure. US carriers are very adaptive in reality.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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neomax
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Re: Emirates Announces non stop flights to EWR

Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:58 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
This might also force UA to improve its product on the nonstops to India, either with a B77W or making EWR a new B789 crew base and putting that on the line.

That is for sure. US carriers are very adaptive in reality.


United is. Delta and American most definitely are not. They have the reactivity of a wall hit with a brick.

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