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admanager
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:04 pm

YuriMG2 wrote:
Aparentely u can do whatever u want and get away with it.

No you can't, and that's why this ruling put an end to the Commerce Dept. baseless decision.
 
berari
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:06 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
I've never made it a Delta thing in this dispute, because it's not. This is a much broader issue that just happened to have Delta in it. But look at the hypocrisy.

Government-assisted airlines that are competitors - bad!
Government-assisted airlines that are partners - good!
Government-assisted aircraft manufacturers that give you a great deal - fantastic!

I don't know how anyone can be a fan of that behavior.


Tell us with full confidence that Boeing has not/does not receive any sort of subsidy, tax break or preferential treatment from any level of governments and we shall support your statement.
 
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YuriMG2
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:08 pm

gatibosgru wrote:
I wonder what Embraer thinks of all this?


I hope Embraer sells the E2 jets for 5mi each in US and Canada after Brazilian government subsidies.

Some opinions here would change very fast.
 
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BirdBrain
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:10 pm

Great news, sanity has prevailed.

As for Boeing, I think some lawyers will be not be sleeping comfortable for a few nights. The 797 will go on the back burner, and plans for 737-MINI-MAX will go ahead. Also, try and get some appointments with Embraer early next week! :wave:
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:11 pm

No, mine wouldn’t and I have a career connection with. BBD. As a consumer, if Canadians, Brazilians or Zambians want to subsidize my travel costs-fine! I think it is stupid on their part, but hey, I get a deal. That said, if that’s the market price for the C-Series or E2, that’s also economically reasonable.

GF
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:12 pm

mat66 wrote:
Egerton wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
I think the Mobile line still makes sense for a number of reasons, not the least of which being that the CS300 and certainly the CS500 are more likely to be found to compete with an existing Boeing product -- hence today's finding of no injury as regards the CS100 would be less likely to apply.

What this decision does do is allow the CS100 to begin to be delivered to Delta sooner rather than later while the Mobile line is ramped up. With other Trump protectionist policies on the way, moving towards a Mobile line is a good move, and one that the Administration can celebrate, rather than try to undermine.


Agreed, and the Airbus/Bombardier deal will assist the prosperity of all parties except Boeing to be enhanced. Well done Boeing.

By the way, I would have preferred that the "Mobile line" would have been called the "line in the USA"


It looks like the Mobile FAL will go ahead.

T. Enders: "We are happy to see that the ITC concurred with our views. We will carry on full steam with our C series project, focusing on addressing the needs of our airline customers and creating more and new, high-skill manufacturing jobs in the US." https://twitter.com/AirbusPRESS/status/ ... 08/photo/1

Good decision IMHO.

Good new for Mobile. Great news for Bombardier.

If Boeing was held to the same standard, the 787 would have tariffs.

The C-series is amazing.

Lightsaber
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Skywatcher
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:13 pm

I'm pleasantly surprised. Now BBD/Airbus can focus on getting cheaper, non USA origin parts substitutions for the C-series going forward in order to make the selling price more competitive.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:14 pm

berari wrote:
Tell us with full confidence that Boeing has not/does not receive any sort of subsidy, tax break or preferential treatment from any level of governments and we shall support your statement.


Show us where Boeing gets unusual and extraordinary federal government assistance a la DL's ME3 allegations, state-owned Chinese airlines, or Bombardier's bailouts, and then I'll respond. And while you're at, make sure DL hasn't received any tax breaks, subsidies, or bankruptcy recovery tools either, because it would again be hypocritical to harp on Boeing if DL is guilty too.
Last edited by MSPNWA on Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:14 pm

It will be interesting to see what other moving parts change now.

Guaranteed the Canadian unions (and some government officials/pundits/loudmouths) demand that the US FAL be abandoned and the thing be made entirely in Canada.

Possible that lawsuits erupt trying to block the Airbus deal, and/or that the same folks above now want to reneg on it.

At the end of the day, the Airbus deal allowed Bombi to survive during this ordeal, which it might not have without it. It traded away some potential profit for the opportunity to survive, and I think that was frankly a good decision. But that doesn't mean that people will not try to unwind it now that Bombi has won. Sadly, opprtunism often trumps honor these days. To do so, I think, would be shortsighted, because Boeing ain't likely to back down, and will likely see this just as a lost battle, not a lost war. There is plenty of uncertainty that it can induce by pursuing appeals of this decision.

Also, the Airbus deal validates the product in the same way that the Delta deal did. To buy the C-Series is a much-safer decision by any group of airline executives owing to both deals. It's like buying a condo in a gentrifying neighborhood: you need a certain outlook to be one of the first folks in, but after a major developer starts several projects there and Starbucks opens, it's a much safer investment...

Bombi was weak on marketing heft, supply-chain management, and the financial ability to scale up. The Airbus deal materially changes all three of those. Now that this is over, I think the opportunities for the aircraft are much rosier.
Last edited by wjcandee on Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:31 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:14 pm

The State of Washington alone subsidizes Boeing, as does SC. Both thru tax breaks which economically are the same as those states writing a check to Boeing.

GF
 
CXH
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:15 pm

aerolimani wrote:
Jamie514 wrote:
Very glad the panel was so clear.

Per a CBC News article Mobile “full assembly line” will go ahead, to protect against future trade attacks; Bbd anticipate a repeat with the next large USA order. I wonder if that means they intend to continue selling as low as the Delta deal which I didn’t really think was sustainable or necessary once the design is proven in service and backed by Airbus.

They also were very clear that the only Canadian components on Mobile product will be the cockpit and a small section of the tail.

I can see Boeing taking another swing at the CSeries, just as a nuisance lawsuit. Eve if such a case were rejected again, it would still be disruptive to CSeries business. Having a US FAL for the CSeries will win friends in government, both Republican and Democrat.


Indeed, a CSeries FAL will be built in Alabama. Think of it as a very expensive insurance policy that Bombardier will have to pay. :smile:
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JoergAtADN
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:15 pm

gatibosgru wrote:
I wonder what Embraer thinks of all this?


Now Boeing needs a clean sheet design to compete. But they have no development ressources for the MOM and a clean sheet 737-7 replacement, while Embraer has a team available. Good negotiating position for them now!
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:17 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
So what does this exactly mean; Are the tariffs removed?


Yep, no tariffs will be applied.

In a shocking reversal and a stunning defeat for Boeing, the US International Trade Commission ruled unanimously Boeing was not harmed by Bombardier’s government subsidies and low-price deal to sell 75+50 CS100s to Delta Air Lines.

This means the prospect of tariffs, of 292%, is dead.


https://leehamnews.com/2018/01/26/break ... mous-vote/
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crimsonchin
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:18 pm

Lmao, so Boeing basically wasted everyone's time, most likely strengthened BBD (through its partnership with Airbus) and lost the case.

Fucking hilarious and well deserved.
 
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gatibosgru
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:19 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
berari wrote:
Tell us with full confidence that Boeing has not/does not receive any sort of subsidy, tax break or preferential treatment from any level of governments and we shall support your statement.


Show us where Boeing gets unusual and extraordinary federal government assistance a la DL's ME3 allegations, state-owned Chinese airlines, or Bombardier's bailouts, and then I'll respond. And while you're at, make sure DL hasn't received any tax breaks, subsidies, or bankruptcy recovery tools either, because it would again be hypocritical to harp on Boeing if DL is guilty too.


Everyone is guilty in some way, which I think is the point others are making. Therefore Boeing cannot cry and complain about unfair practices when it too gets plenty of help.
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A320FlyGuy
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:21 pm

This is absolutely outstanding news! I am thrilled for Bombardier - they needed some good news and I bet the champagne is flowing in Montreal and Mirabel tonight!

As for Boeing, well, the corporate arrogance is catching up with them. They really $#!t on their cornflakes when they attacked Bombardier. Not only did it tick off the Canadian government but it also caused many in the industry to take a look Boeing's business practices and reevaluate their business relationship. I think that Boeing is going to be feeling a fair bit of pain over this absolutely frivolous dispute that has been a waste of time, money, and resources for everyone involved. It won't happen, but I would love to see BBD file a lawsuit and go after Boeing for costs incurred - and - (if they could prove it) disruption and financial damage to the CSeries program.
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Atlwarrior
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:22 pm

Any estimate on when Delta receives its first plane?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:23 pm

Armodeen wrote:
Wow so all Boeing achieved was to push Bombardier into the hands of Airbus? :o :lol:


:checkmark:

So whoever came up with this strategy will be fired at Boeing?

Now Boeing, just build better planes then the competition and win like this, not by builiing.
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MSPNWA
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:29 pm

StTim wrote:
I think there is no case to answer on harm to Boeing as they have no competing product. There is a much better case for harm against Embraer.


The irony of that is the general consensus among airlines and even the ITC itself doesn't agree with that statement. They both say they compete.

And then the ITC voted for no harm. Very curious.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:31 pm

Delta's statement on the matter:

Delta is pleased by the U.S. International Trade Commission's ruling rejecting Boeing's anticompetitive attempt to deny U.S. airlines and the U.S. traveling public access to the state-of-the-art 110-seat CS100 aircraft when Boeing offers no viable alternative. The airline looks forward to introducing the innovative CS100 to its fleet for the benefit of Delta's employees, customers and shareowners.


http://newsroom.aviator.aero/delta-stat ... es-matter/
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AirbusCanada
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:32 pm

YuriMG2 wrote:
SteinarN wrote:
Wow! Absolutely fantastic news. My faith in fair competition based on products and performance is greatly restored when reading this.


Subsidy, selling the planes for a fraction of the price, selling ur soul because of incompetence.

Are you really serious about the fair competition or ur just anti-Boeing?


if the completion was fair, B787 would be slapped by anti dumping duties all over the world.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:34 pm

I think what's most amusing about the foaming at the mouth against Boeing is that the biggest loser after this decision isn't Boeing. It's Embraer. They compete even more closely, and now a key market in the U.S. is heavily tilted against them.

gatibosgru wrote:
Everyone is guilty in some way, which I think is the point others are making. Therefore Boeing cannot cry and complain about unfair practices when it too gets plenty of help.


That's why we have things called laws. There are thresholds that are internationally and domestically accepted, and there's thresholds that are not. Boeing has every right to complain when other airlines cross that universal threshold.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:38 pm

Regarding the CSeries FAL in Mobile:

"Yes, we will proceed with the Alabama FAL. We are full speed ahead. We have conducted site visits and planning activities for the Alabama final assembly line, consistent with antitrust laws."


https://twitter.com/FG_STrim/status/957003102229532674
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toobz
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:38 pm

I guess Bastian was right..they will be taking the aircraft and they will NOT be paying the tariff :-P
 
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YuriMG2
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:38 pm

Embraer is in trouble.

You cant do anything when a 80mi airplane is legally sold for 20mi.
 
jalarner
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:39 pm

So...now what with Canada/UK defense contracts? Will they open them back up to Boeing assuming they more or les back down quietly? And will Boeing slowly increase the price of things, specifically on the support side when contracts are up?
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D L X
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:41 pm

SumChristianus wrote:
I wish the President would stand up to an all too powerful Boeing,

Don't hold your breath. "America First" means that the President would all but certainly side with Boeing in a dispute with Bombardier.

I do ITC cases, but not so much on the trade side. Does the president get to veto this ruling?
 
DCA-ROCguy
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:44 pm

BOOM! No to corporate welfare!

USA consumers and communities, especially the medium- to small-medium-sized, will benefit from more-competitive-economics newer-generaation 100-125 seat planes. Boeing still has the opportunity to make heaps of money with competitive-economics 737-MAX 8, MAX 9, and MAX 10 aircraft. Delta will be better able to provide more-mainline-like comfort to more markets. And everyone's shareholders will have something to be happy about.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
jalarner
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:45 pm

YuriMG2 wrote:
Embraer is in trouble.

You cant do anything when a 80mi airplane is legally sold for 20mi.


Do you honestly not understand anything about the sales process or anything to do with this situation? Have you read the thousands of posts about this? You should really do some more research or your 2 weeks here and 65 posts will loose you a lot of respect and credibility very quickly.
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goboeing
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:45 pm

I'd like to root for the "home team" but this is what happens when they stop innovating.

The 737 has never been and will never be a plane that should be considered modern and 50 years after the prototype, to think that stretching it and hanging new engines from it on a new wing is going to compete against a fresh, new design, is absurd. This decision reflects that.

Huge wine for DL as well.

The C's will be plentiful in the USA soon. Boeing (and Airbus for that matter) had their chance to offer something in this market.
 
airfrnt
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:45 pm

cv990Coronado wrote:
Excellent news for free trade. Now Boeing please get back to the old ways of Boeing and show some innovation and courage. Forget the ways of McDonnell re hashing old designs and do something which will make you great again. Bill Allen didn’t give the go ahead for the 707 & 747 by complaining about competition he was a true leader and a visionary.
Otherwise in 20 years time Airbus and China will be the leaders and Boeing will be someone who was probably the greatest aircraft manufacturer ever.


Or just accept open governmental handouts openly like their competitors.
Last edited by airfrnt on Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
ExMilitaryEng
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:47 pm

YuriMG2 wrote:
I hope Embraer sells the E2 jets for 5mi each in US and Canada after Brazilian government subsidies. Some opinions here would change very fast.
Actually, original E190s were sold to Air Canada not too far from those prices. "longhauler" here actually saw the $ transaction when he took delivery of one in Sao Paulo (he had to authorise the payment if I recall). The actual amount is confidential. Should we have lodged a complaint then? No, then the CRJ-1000 was not a competing product I suppose.
Last edited by ExMilitaryEng on Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
airfrnt
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:47 pm

DCA-ROCguy wrote:
BOOM! No to corporate welfare!



Jim

Just as a question, what do you think the payment from Canada to Bombardier was?

The 300 percent wasn't warranted adn was typical Trump stupidity. But the fact still remains that this program was rescued and saved by Canadian interference. If you are going to have a free market, everyone needs to play by the same rules.
Last edited by airfrnt on Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
DCA-ROCguy
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:57 pm

airfrnt wrote:
Just as a question, what do you think the payment from Canada to Bombardier was?


Both manufacturers get government aid, as has been amply documented in this thread.

A 300 percent tariff--which would have put the cost each aircraft sold far beyond the actual cost of making the aircraft--was not 'leveling the playing field' or 'protecting fair trade.' It was corporate welfare for Boeing, pure and simple. Now Boeing needs to get back to what it did for five decades: design outstanding, good-economics aircraft to meet the 100-125 ish-seat segment. Or, collaborate with someone who will.

Jim
Last edited by DCA-ROCguy on Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Amiga500
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:57 pm

airfrnt wrote:
The 300 percent wasn't warranted adn was typical Trump stupidity. But the fact still remains that this program was rescued and saved by Canadian interference. If you are going to have a free market, everyone needs to play by the same rules.


OK.

So, what about... say the american car manufacturers?
 
opticalilyushin
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:57 pm

A fantastic and just result for Bombardier, Delta, jobs in Canada, Northern Ireland and now of course the States :)
 
washingtonflyer
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:57 pm

On a plane now so limted wifi.

Yes, Boeing can and probably will appeal.

Yes, the duties are toast for now. No duties will be collected unless there is a reversal by the Court of International Trade.

I said after the hearing that I felt that Boeings chances of victory were not great.

Staff report confirmed it.
 
Flaps
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:58 pm

Bombardier will not be able to continue selling at $20 million prices even with Airbus aid (assuming the deal still goes through). At some point they will have to price at a level that will provide a positive return on investment for all parties. This was just the opening battle. Boeing and Embraer are already in talks. As said above Embraer is the big loser here not Boeing. This decision really opens the door for Boeing and Embraer to work together. This is merely the first chapter in what may become a very intersting saga.

If the Airbus deal remains the CS500 is unlikely to see the light of day. It may well come down to Boeing/Embraer vs Bombardier/Airbus at the bottom end. As of now the CS300 would tilt that advantage toward BBD/Airbus. If Embraer and Boeing team up though I would expect to see something to compete with the CS300. Interesting times indeed. Usually oligopoly doesnt provide positive results. This time though who knows?
 
washingtonflyer
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:59 pm

D L X wrote:
SumChristianus wrote:
I wish the President would stand up to an all too powerful Boeing,

Don't hold your breath. "America First" means that the President would all but certainly side with Boeing in a dispute with Bombardier.

I do ITC cases, but not so much on the trade side. Does the president get to veto this ruling?


President plays no role in 701 and 731 cases.
Last edited by washingtonflyer on Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
airfrnt
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:59 pm

DCA-ROCguy wrote:
airfrnt wrote:
Just as a question, what do you think the payment from Canada to Bombardier was?


Both manufacturers get government aid, as has been amply documented in this thread.

A 300 percent tariff--which would have put the cost each aircraft sold far beyond the actual cost of making the aircraft--was not 'leveling the playing field' or 'protecting fair trade.' It was corporate welfare for Boeing, pure and simple. Now Boeing needs to get back to what it did for five decades: design outstanding, good-economics aircraft to meet the 100-125 ish-seat segment. Or, collaborate with someone who will.

Jim


False Equivalence. Local government incentives and government contracts (which actually result in separate products being delivered) do not equal programs that would otherwise be bankrupt and failed, and far below market value plane sales.

I agree on the size of the tariff - Trump overplayed this. But let's not pretend that the noble and virtuous Bombardier did nothing wrong, and that this is just that evil noncompetitive American company being mean and imperialistic to hurt all Canadians.
 
Amiga500
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:00 pm

airfrnt wrote:
False Equivalence. Local government incentives and government contracts (which actually result in separate products being delivered) do not equal programs that would otherwise be bankrupt and failed, and far below market value plane sales.


How do you think the 787 program would have went if Boeing had not got their "local government incentives" up front?
 
ExMilitaryEng
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:01 pm

YuriMG2 wrote:
Embraer is in trouble. You cant do anything when a 80mi airplane is legally sold for 20mi.

20mi is what Boeing pretends. Anyways, the CSeries selling price will gradually increase as the product become more attractive - being on more solid ground and having better after sale service.

Quoting another poster above, BBD was weak on marketing heft, supply-chain management (no economy of scale), and did not have the financial ability to scale up.
 
dampfnudel
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:03 pm

This is great news and a happy day in Atlanta. Now DL can get the aircraft they need and Boeing will be forced to accept the reality that if you want to do better than your competition, you need to have the best/right product and not the be$t legal team. I can’t wait to see the first CS come out of the paint shop in DL colors.
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bkflyguy
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:03 pm

EddieDude wrote:
Wow, that was quick.

Is this resolution appealable? If it is, I sincerely hope Boeing just leaves Bombardier alone and moves on.

What needs to happen now in order fot the duties to be revoked? Is it automatic or do Bombardier or Delta need to carry out additional formalities with the Department of Commerce or another agency?


The duties were never put in place. In an anti-dumping case, the USITC and the U.S. Department of Commerce each address a different question. Commerce determines whether the alleged dumping or subsidizing is happening and if so, the margin of dumping or amount of subsidy. The USITC determines whether the U.S. industry is materially injured or threatened with material injury by reason of the imports under investigation. If BOTH Commerce and the USITC reach affirmative final determinations on their individual questions, then Commerce will issue an antidumping duty order to offset the dumping or a countervailing duty order to offset the subsidy.

Here, Commerce and USITC did not agree, so no duties/tariffs. The USITC decision could be reviewed by a Court but would be done under an "abuse of discretion" standard. For the non-lawyers, that is a tough standard to meet, but it will depend on the USITC written decision and rationale. Someone else asked if the President can overrule this. No. The President has no role in this, unlike the solar panel dispute which was brought under a different section of US trade law.
 
Flighty
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:14 pm

A much deserved humiliation for amateurish, disreputable Boeing management. They are known in the business world as lowlifes!
 
chiad
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:25 pm

Is it possible the CS500 can be launched with 2 different cockpits? One version with CS100 / CS300 commonality, and another version with the Airbus NEO commonality.
 
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piedmontf284000
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:26 pm

Boeing went all in and lost. They not only are humiliated but their long term business is forever altered by their decision to go forward with this nasty squabble. They lose far more down the road then what they claimed to have lost to a 75 plane deal to Delta. They also lost a great deal of respect amongst their customer base...possibly former. It will be interesting to see what future plans Airbus has for this aircraft. They are the big winners here. Bombadier, while vindicated, still gave away it's future aerospace program for penny's on the dollar.
 
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northstardc4m
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:26 pm

Flaps wrote:
Bombardier will not be able to continue selling at $20 million prices even with Airbus aid (assuming the deal still goes through).


Well since they never sold a single final aircraft at $20M USD per that point is moot. They have sold over 300 C-Series... The 75/50 order from Delta is only one of them. And then we get into the math...

The average price of the known delivered aircraft is about $34mil USD per.

The Delta order was stated as being worth 5.6 billion at full price. Which divided by 125 is 44.8 million per. Later estimates put the actual price at 3.2 billion for the first 75... 42.6 mil per. A further release gave 3.4 for all 125... 27.2mil/per... and thats the absolute lowest I can find, the actual contract is not public. Boeing somehow got the number 19.6 million per... not explained where or how.
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:28 pm

YuriMG2 wrote:
SteinarN wrote:
Wow! Absolutely fantastic news. My faith in fair competition based on products and performance is greatly restored when reading this.


Subsidy, selling the planes for a fraction of the price, selling ur soul because of incompetence.

Are you really serious about the fair competition or ur just anti-Boeing?


Boing selling 73G to United at below cost to keep them from ordering CS100's was fair competition. UA new they could not use those planes that were too big for the competition and have already upgraded it to newer larger models at increased cost. I bet not below cost as they were before. So you see Boeing being a fair competitor in that case? I like all the planes, but wake up and smell the coffee snow white!
 
Turnhouse1
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Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 5:57 pm

Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:32 pm

Good to see that the C Series will thrive, hopefully Boeing will focus on products in the vein of the 787 which are genuinely good and win sales on the basis of simply being better. More engineers and fewer lawyers/accountants.
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