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mariner
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Re: Frontier Airlines Network Thread 2018

Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:43 pm

RL757PVD wrote:
6am is not nearly as bad as 9pm departure on a Saturday


Did I say that it was???

But if comes to that, 9pm isn't as bad as some of the departures from SJU, which have caused some derision here but which don't seem to be affecting the loads.

mariner
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RL757PVD
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Re: Frontier Airlines Network Thread 2018

Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:20 am

mariner wrote:
RL757PVD wrote:
6am is not nearly as bad as 9pm departure on a Saturday


Did I say that it was???

But if comes to that, 9pm isn't as bad as some of the departures from SJU, which have caused some derision here but which don't seem to be affecting the loads.

mariner


I wasn’t quoting you, I was making a general point

F9 seems to be setting a lot of these less than daily markets up for failure by prioritizing utilization over revenue potential.
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mariner
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Re: Frontier Airlines Network Thread 2018

Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:20 am

RL757PVD wrote:
[I wasn’t quoting you, I was making a general point


My mistake.

RL757PVD wrote:
F9 seems to be setting a lot of these less than daily markets up for failure by prioritizing utilization over revenue potential.


On the whole, the less-than-daily markets have been key to Frontier's financial success. A few have gone down the tubes, but most have been successful.

mariner
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wnflyguy
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Re: Frontier Airlines Network Thread 2018

Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:29 am

Would the new ULCC Frontier model work at LGB?

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mariner
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Re: Frontier Airlines Network Thread 2018

Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:39 am

wnflyguy wrote:
Would the new ULCC Frontier model work at LGB?


As much as Spirit or Allegiant would work. But reading the thread they all want Southwest, Delta or Alaska - mostly Southwest.

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SumChristianus
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Re: Frontier Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue May 01, 2018 4:39 pm

SMF-LAS starting August 12th 3x weekly (247)
SMF-DEN starting August 13th 4x weekly (x247)
FTC/MMU Morristown, New Jersey shos up as a city, with image in the booking engine, but no destinations. Same with PGD (back), and FLL (back)
SBA-DEN starting August 21st, 3x weekly (247)

Looks like another F9 dartboard game is coming!


Ohh wait:https://news.flyfrontier.com/frontier-adds-two-new-cities-and-announces-six-routes---fares-as-low-as-49/
RDU-DTW, RDU-MSP, and AUS-SLC.....as well
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RDUDDJI
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Re: Frontier Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue May 01, 2018 7:22 pm

SumChristianus wrote:


Hmmm, poking DL's hubs...be interesting to see how this plays out.
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RL757PVD
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Re: Frontier Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue May 01, 2018 7:36 pm

Thats where the ISP and PVD flights went, honestly AUS-SLC makes more sense than PVD, theres too much competition up the road at BOS. I wish they'd focus on larger markets and those that previously supported nonstop service from PVD like LAS MSP DFW IAH PHX etc. that all have much greater potential for success.
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MAH4546
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Re: Frontier Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue May 01, 2018 8:24 pm

Heard MIA-ISP will be back in November.
a.
 
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Re: Frontier Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue May 01, 2018 8:32 pm

Does anyone have an educated guess at what Frontier wants to do at RDU? Are they expecting to use RDU for connections?

From RDU: Austin, Denver, Las Vegas, Orlando
Seasonal from RDU: Buffalo, Cincinnati, Cleveland, Harrisburg, Detroit, Houston–Intercontinental, Kansas City, Milwaukee, Minneapolis/St. Paul, New Orleans, Portland (ME), Providence, San Antonio, San Juan, Syracuse, Trenton
 
phluser
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Re: Frontier Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue May 01, 2018 8:45 pm

mariner wrote:
phluser wrote:
I mentioned awhile ago that the ISP-DTW schedule was crappy. 6am departure out of ISP. Arrival back to ISP is close to midnight (5/6 - 5/10 as an example). 6am might work for MCO and if it's a secondary frequency, but a 3x weekly DTW - I doubted it. It figures that F9 is calling it a low demand problem rather than poor execution.


Curious then that Frontier flies TTN to and from DTW with such "terrible timings" - LOL - and has done, on and off, for several years. Oh, well.

mariner


TTN is somewhat proven for F9, so it can get away with a challenging schedule that it might not be able to at ISP. I don't know if the TTN-DTW schedule has always been like this either.

Of course competition matters too: Spirit is steady with 2x daily on LGA-DTW, AA fare matches to some extent. The low fare competition of PHL and EWR to DTW is a lot less, and it's harder finding an inexpensive fare to Detroit, although Spirit does have a seasonal 1x on PHL-DTW.

TTN-DTW might not be a big money-maker currently. I'd guess maybe it's just breaking even, but that'd depend on load factors. Friday 5/4 fare on TTN-DTW is offered at $29 Discount Den, $39 standard fare. DTW-TTN is same price on Friday and Saturday, and arrival back is close to midnight.
 
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mariner
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Re: Frontier Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue May 01, 2018 9:06 pm

phluser wrote:
That said, TTN-DTW seems marginal at best and likely isn't a big money-maker currently. Friday 5/4 fare on TTN-DTW is offered at $29 Discount Den, $39 standard fare. DTW-TTN is same price on Friday and Saturday, and arrival back is close to midnight.


Whether it's a big money maker or not, it's still there - after five years.

Frontier's pricing seems to defeat those who are used to legacy fares and cannot change their thinking.

mariner
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Re: Frontier Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue May 01, 2018 9:20 pm

More adds announced today for F9. Sacramento gets 3-4X times a week service to DEN and LAS starting mid-summer. New adds from RDU to MSP and DET (same 3-4 X a week). DEN-SBA (Santa Barbara) is started seasonally in July. Austin gets less than daily service to Salt Lake City.

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Re: Frontier Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue May 01, 2018 9:29 pm

Seasonal Spokane, Washington - Denver started.
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rph99
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Re: Frontier Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue May 01, 2018 9:45 pm

Morristown is so interesting.

I want to speculate this.

What routes would we see and could they get their 321s in there with the short runway? 5998ft?
 
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Re: Frontier Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue May 01, 2018 9:47 pm

rph99 wrote:
Morristown is so interesting.

I want to speculate this.

What routes would we see and could they get their 321s in there with the short runway? 5998ft?
MCO, JAX, TPA, RSW, PBI, MIA. This airport is nothing more than an alternative to EWR.
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WNflyer1523
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Re: Frontier Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue May 01, 2018 10:21 pm

MAH4546 wrote:
Heard MIA-ISP will be back in November.

Either that or another airport around there. They’re also going to add RSW-ISP. Saw it in a Newsday article
 
RL757PVD
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Re: Frontier Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue May 01, 2018 10:38 pm

Mark my words MMU (have no idea what FTC is, but its not the airport) is never going to have commercial service, its some sort of booking engine code or glitch. There is no terminal, no parking lot, no commercial apron, and it does not have the necessary Part 139 certificate and there are no plans to address any of those items.
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Re: Frontier Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue May 01, 2018 11:04 pm

mariner wrote:
phluser wrote:
That said, TTN-DTW seems marginal at best and likely isn't a big money-maker currently. Friday 5/4 fare on TTN-DTW is offered at $29 Discount Den, $39 standard fare. DTW-TTN is same price on Friday and Saturday, and arrival back is close to midnight.


Whether it's a big money maker or not, it's still there - after five years.

Frontier's pricing seems to defeat those who are used to legacy fares and cannot change their thinking.

mariner


Had a friend boast about paying $ 350 for first row and checked luggage included and it being cheaper than United's regularge fare. IF it's point to point or by chance a decent connection timing, it's kinda a no brainer for the average traveler.
 
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Re: Frontier Airlines Network Thread 2018

Wed May 02, 2018 12:55 pm

ScrantonUSC wrote:
Does anyone have an educated guess at what Frontier wants to do at RDU? Are they expecting to use RDU for connections?

From RDU: Austin, Denver, Las Vegas, Orlando
Seasonal from RDU: Buffalo, Cincinnati, Cleveland, Harrisburg, Detroit, Houston–Intercontinental, Kansas City, Milwaukee, Minneapolis/St. Paul, New Orleans, Portland (ME), Providence, San Antonio, San Juan, Syracuse, Trenton


I don’t believe their frequencies allow for connections. Many of those flights only operate 2-3days a week. At this point I wonder if F9 even has a business plan or if they’re just throwing darts at a map... I can’t imagine something like RDU-SYR 2x weekly being worth it... No offense to RDU or SYR.

I recall pre-9/11 when I worked for JI, I always thought JI-F9 would be a good merger. Merging West and East and kind of having a “national” regional airline. Ah dreams(delusions) of a 20something ramper. :D
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phluser
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Re: Frontier Airlines Network Thread 2018

Wed May 02, 2018 2:34 pm

mariner wrote:
phluser wrote:
That said, TTN-DTW seems marginal at best and likely isn't a big money-maker currently. Friday 5/4 fare on TTN-DTW is offered at $29 Discount Den, $39 standard fare. DTW-TTN is same price on Friday and Saturday, and arrival back is close to midnight.


Whether it's a big money maker or not, it's still there - after five years.

Frontier's pricing seems to defeat those who are used to legacy fares and cannot change their thinking.

mariner


If the pricing is so low for many flights just days ahead, it's often been the case, the route gets cut as it didn't perform to expectations. Yes, TTN-DTW has been there for five years, but it's seasonal, and run at different times each year. It's also 4x weekly while ISP is less. Thanks for building the straw man and switch the conversation to TTN, which is a proven station for F9, while ISP is a new and different station.
 
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mariner
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Re: Frontier Airlines Network Thread 2018

Wed May 02, 2018 7:10 pm

phluser wrote:
If the pricing is so low for many flights just days ahead, it's often been the case, the route gets cut as it didn't perform to expectations. Yes, TTN-DTW has been there for five years, but it's seasonal, and run at different times each year. It's also 4x weekly while ISP is less. Thanks for building the straw man and switch the conversation to TTN, which is a proven station for F9, while ISP is a new and different station.


And if ISP-DTW were to continue through a second season. times nay be different again, so I don't understand this. You make it sound like ISP is doing Frontier a favour by having them there, whereas if the airport cannot handle Frontier's scheduling, Frontier shouldn't be at the airport.

Most airlines have done this - they have avoided ISP. Frontier has given it a go and has found some routes that work. But not all of them will.

mariner
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Midwestindy
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Re: Frontier Airlines Network Thread 2018

Wed May 02, 2018 8:15 pm

mariner wrote:
phluser wrote:
If the pricing is so low for many flights just days ahead, it's often been the case, the route gets cut as it didn't perform to expectations. Yes, TTN-DTW has been there for five years, but it's seasonal, and run at different times each year. It's also 4x weekly while ISP is less. Thanks for building the straw man and switch the conversation to TTN, which is a proven station for F9, while ISP is a new and different station.


And if ISP-DTW were to continue through a second season. times nay be different again, so I don't understand this. You make it sound like ISP is doing Frontier a favour by having them there, whereas if the airport cannot handle Frontier's scheduling, Frontier shouldn't be at the airport.

Most airlines have done this - they have avoided ISP. Frontier has given it a go and has found some routes that work. But not all of them will.

mariner


Frontier has put in a good effort in trying to expand ISP, but so far it has been pretty unsuccessful, DTW, MSP, MIA, MSY, and RSW cut or suspended within 6 months
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Re: Frontier Airlines Network Thread 2018

Wed May 02, 2018 8:23 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
Frontier has put in a good effort in trying to expand ISP, but so far it has been pretty unsuccessful, DTW, MSP, MIA, MSY, and RSW cut or suspended within 6 months


And just this very week we get news that ISP-RSW is coming back for the winter season and probably ISP-MIA as well. But what matters, surely, is not what has been cancelled but what is flying.

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Re: Frontier Airlines Network Thread 2018

Wed May 02, 2018 8:47 pm

mariner wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Frontier has put in a good effort in trying to expand ISP, but so far it has been pretty unsuccessful, DTW, MSP, MIA, MSY, and RSW cut or suspended within 6 months


And just this very week we get news that ISP-RSW is coming back for the winter season and probably ISP-MIA as well.

mariner


The fact that RSW and MIA (along with the others I mentioned) were suspended in the first place so quickly isn't a good sign
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Re: Frontier Airlines Network Thread 2018

Wed May 02, 2018 8:55 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
The fact that RSW and MIA (along with the others I mentioned) were suspended in the first place so quickly isn't a good sign


For while there it seemed as if everything people said about ISP was true.

On the other hands there were the routes that had not been cut. Still if you want to look on the dark side, be my guest.

mariner
Last edited by mariner on Wed May 02, 2018 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ryanrap1
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Re: Frontier Airlines Network Thread 2018

Wed May 02, 2018 8:56 pm

Does anyone know when the schedule will be extended through end of December?
 
WNflyer1523
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Re: Frontier Airlines Network Thread 2018

Wed May 02, 2018 9:40 pm

mariner wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Frontier has put in a good effort in trying to expand ISP, but so far it has been pretty unsuccessful, DTW, MSP, MIA, MSY, and RSW cut or suspended within 6 months


And just this very week we get news that ISP-RSW is coming back for the winter season and probably ISP-MIA as well. But what matters, surely, is not what has been cancelled but what is flying.

mariner


While nothing too significant, they're also increasing ISP-MYR frequency from 3x a week to 4x
 
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Re: Frontier Airlines Network Thread 2018

Wed May 02, 2018 11:43 pm

WNflyer1523 wrote:
While nothing too significant, they're also increasing ISP-MYR frequency from 3x a week to 4x


A new, untried (by that airline) destination gets a bump up in frequency before service has started? It's good.

IAD was met by an army of a.netters all pronouncing its doom as soon as it was announced. It was rough, sure, but they got there, and it presently has more than half a dozen destinations.

MIA was met by an army of a.netters all pronouncing its doom as soon as it was announced. Same-same with ISP.

What is important is the many routes that they keep, not the few routes that they drop - although I expect some a.netters want to show how much better their knowledge is than those people actually running the airline.

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Re: Frontier Airlines Network Thread 2018

Thu May 03, 2018 12:27 am

ryanrap1 wrote:
Does anyone know when the schedule will be extended through end of December?

It will be extended through January 6, 2019 on May 31st.
 
Buffalomatt1027
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Re: Frontier Airlines Network Thread 2018

Sat May 05, 2018 1:12 am

RDUDDJI wrote:
ScrantonUSC wrote:
Does anyone have an educated guess at what Frontier wants to do at RDU? Are they expecting to use RDU for connections?

From RDU: Austin, Denver, Las Vegas, Orlando
Seasonal from RDU: Buffalo, Cincinnati, Cleveland, Harrisburg, Detroit, Houston–Intercontinental, Kansas City, Milwaukee, Minneapolis/St. Paul, New Orleans, Portland (ME), Providence, San Antonio, San Juan, Syracuse, Trenton


I don’t believe their frequencies allow for connections. Many of those flights only operate 2-3days a week. At this point I wonder if F9 even has a business plan or if they’re just throwing darts at a map... I can’t imagine something like RDU-SYR 2x weekly being worth it... No offense to RDU or SYR.

I recall pre-9/11 when I worked for JI, I always thought JI-F9 would be a good merger. Merging West and East and kind of having a “national” regional airline. Ah dreams(delusions) of a 20something ramper. :D



Beside the obvious airports like Orlando, miami, denver, and a few other major airports. Frontier I feel like will chose a southern airport for vacationers and try to get flyers to travel there.

For example: BUF -> AUS and BUF -> RDU are good summer flights for vacations. Seasonal, the routes work just fine. Long term, i doubt would work.
 
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SumChristianus
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Re: Frontier Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue May 22, 2018 9:27 pm

AUS got a lot last month, SAT's turn.
https://news.flyfrontier.com/frontier-a ... n-antonio/
Albuquerque
Charlotte
Cleveland
Columbus
Jacksonville
Memphis
Oklahoma City
Omaha
Tulsa

Still looks like a dartboard, but F9 seems to have reached the Ryanair like point where they can enter almost any route and fill planes (even when they leave the same route soon)

Still expecting FTC, Morristown, NJ, and a return to FLL as these have bounced in and out of F9's booking system as choices (no flights loaded) for some time. (FLL has a destination page, but thats probably just a hangover from the last time they flew there)

FTC had a thumbnail (city) image so I think its more than a coding mistake. Still not sure what they are up to though.
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Atlwarrior
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Re: Frontier Airlines Network Thread 2018

Wed May 23, 2018 1:12 am

Super excited about DEN to MYR which starts tomorrow on May 23. This route should do well.
 
Buffalomatt1027
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Re: Frontier Airlines Network Thread 2018

Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:49 am

I wonder how Frontier is doing in BUF this summer with AUS , RDU, and DEN. Frontier was extremely successful with the Florida destinations during the winter with 94 % fill rate. Wonder if that momentum continued. The DEN route I think would be fine .... the other 2, I am interested to know how they are doing.
 
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Re: Frontier Airlines Network Thread 2018

Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:16 pm

Does anybody know how many of the 85 routes from Frontier's mega-expansion in July 2017 are still operating (routes made seasonal still included)? I know that lots, if not all, of the DEN routes have stuck (even though some of the DEN routes have only operated for a short time), but I don't know how many of the other routes are still around.

On another note, I agree with others on this forum that while it's frustrating to keep track of the F9 network, it's nice to see them trying unique routes and basically becoming the American FR/U2, and I feel like more of their routes are sticking around now compared to 2-3 years ago, which is a good sign.
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F9LASDEN
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Re: Frontier Airlines Network Thread 2018

Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:46 pm

717atOGG wrote:
Does anybody know how many of the 85 routes from Frontier's mega-expansion in July 2017 are still operating (routes made seasonal still included)? I know that lots, if not all, of the DEN routes have stuck (even though some of the DEN routes have only operated for a short time), but I don't know how many of the other routes are still around.

On another note, I agree with others on this forum that while it's frustrating to keep track of the F9 network, it's nice to see them trying unique routes and basically becoming the American FR/U2, and I feel like more of their routes are sticking around now compared to 2-3 years ago, which is a good sign.


Of the 85 routes announced last July, 12 have been cut: CLT-ISP, MCO-CUN, ORD-ONT, CVG-SEA, DTW-ISP, MIA-ISP (although it’s rumored that this route is coming back next winter), ISP-MSP, ISP-MSY, OKC-SAN, BNA-TPA, MSY-PVD, and SAN-TUL. I believe a few of these routes were cut before they even began (CLT-ISP and ORD-ONT are two I know for sure, and I believe that CVG-SEA suffered the same fate). DEN, the station that had the most routes announced last July, has managed to retain all 21 of the routes they announced from there last July (up to this point), though, as you mention, some of them have been running for a very short time (DEN-JAC just launched 4 days ago, in fact). I believe that having 73 (possibly 74) of those routes still running almost a year after that announcement is pretty good, especially given F9’s track record of quickly entering and exiting markets.
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Balloonchaser
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Re: Frontier Airlines Network Thread 2018

Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:52 pm

F9LASDEN wrote:
717atOGG wrote:
Does anybody know how many of the 85 routes from Frontier's mega-expansion in July 2017 are still operating (routes made seasonal still included)? I know that lots, if not all, of the DEN routes have stuck (even though some of the DEN routes have only operated for a short time), but I don't know how many of the other routes are still around.

On another note, I agree with others on this forum that while it's frustrating to keep track of the F9 network, it's nice to see them trying unique routes and basically becoming the American FR/U2, and I feel like more of their routes are sticking around now compared to 2-3 years ago, which is a good sign.


Of the 85 routes announced last July, 12 have been cut: CLT-ISP, MCO-CUN, ORD-ONT, CVG-SEA, DTW-ISP, MIA-ISP (although it’s rumored that this route is coming back next winter), ISP-MSP, ISP-MSY, OKC-SAN, BNA-TPA, MSY-PVD, and SAN-TUL. I believe a few of these routes were cut before they even began (CLT-ISP and ORD-ONT are two I know for sure, and I believe that CVG-SEA suffered the same fate). DEN, the station that had the most routes announced last July, has managed to retain all 21 of the routes they announced from there last July (up to this point), though, as you mention, some of them have been running for a very short time (DEN-JAC just launched 4 days ago, in fact). I believe that having 73 (possibly 74) of those routes still running almost a year after that announcement is pretty good, especially given F9’s track record of quickly entering and exiting markets.


It’s actually rumored that all of Frontiers routes from Islip (ISP) will come back at some point this year or next year for a seasonal schedule.

ISP-CLT - Winter Seasonal
ISP-DTW - F9 Stated that if loads ended up being high at the end of the quarter, then they may bring it back next year
ISP-MIA - Fall/Winter Seasonal
ISP-MSP - F9 Stated that if loads ended up being high at the end of the quarter, then they may bring it back next year
ISP-MSY - Spring/Summer Seasonal
 
F9LASDEN
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Re: Frontier Airlines Network Thread 2018

Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:06 am

Balloonchaser wrote:
F9LASDEN wrote:
717atOGG wrote:
Does anybody know how many of the 85 routes from Frontier's mega-expansion in July 2017 are still operating (routes made seasonal still included)? I know that lots, if not all, of the DEN routes have stuck (even though some of the DEN routes have only operated for a short time), but I don't know how many of the other routes are still around.

On another note, I agree with others on this forum that while it's frustrating to keep track of the F9 network, it's nice to see them trying unique routes and basically becoming the American FR/U2, and I feel like more of their routes are sticking around now compared to 2-3 years ago, which is a good sign.


Of the 85 routes announced last July, 12 have been cut: CLT-ISP, MCO-CUN, ORD-ONT, CVG-SEA, DTW-ISP, MIA-ISP (although it’s rumored that this route is coming back next winter), ISP-MSP, ISP-MSY, OKC-SAN, BNA-TPA, MSY-PVD, and SAN-TUL. I believe a few of these routes were cut before they even began (CLT-ISP and ORD-ONT are two I know for sure, and I believe that CVG-SEA suffered the same fate). DEN, the station that had the most routes announced last July, has managed to retain all 21 of the routes they announced from there last July (up to this point), though, as you mention, some of them have been running for a very short time (DEN-JAC just launched 4 days ago, in fact). I believe that having 73 (possibly 74) of those routes still running almost a year after that announcement is pretty good, especially given F9’s track record of quickly entering and exiting markets.


It’s actually rumored that all of Frontiers routes from Islip (ISP) will come back at some point this year or next year for a seasonal schedule.

ISP-CLT - Winter Seasonal
ISP-DTW - F9 Stated that if loads ended up being high at the end of the quarter, then they may bring it back next year
ISP-MIA - Fall/Winter Seasonal
ISP-MSP - F9 Stated that if loads ended up being high at the end of the quarter, then they may bring it back next year
ISP-MSY - Spring/Summer Seasonal


I believe launching/re-launching these routes either later this year or next year gives them a better chance at succeeding on them than when they were first launched, as it will have given F9 another year for ISP travelers to become acquainted with them compared to when they were launched last year (I believe when this announcement was made, their original ISP route to MCO hadn't even begun yet). ISP-RSW was already dropped once and then brought back, so hopefully some of (or all of) these other routes will end up coming back as well.

If they all end up coming back, that would mean 78 of the 85 routes announced as part of that mega-expansion would still be operating.
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msycajun
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Re: Frontier Airlines Network Thread 2018

Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:31 am

F9LASDEN wrote:
717atOGG wrote:
Does anybody know how many of the 85 routes from Frontier's mega-expansion in July 2017 are still operating (routes made seasonal still included)? I know that lots, if not all, of the DEN routes have stuck (even though some of the DEN routes have only operated for a short time), but I don't know how many of the other routes are still around.

On another note, I agree with others on this forum that while it's frustrating to keep track of the F9 network, it's nice to see them trying unique routes and basically becoming the American FR/U2, and I feel like more of their routes are sticking around now compared to 2-3 years ago, which is a good sign.


Of the 85 routes announced last July, 12 have been cut: CLT-ISP, MCO-CUN, ORD-ONT, CVG-SEA, DTW-ISP, MIA-ISP (although it’s rumored that this route is coming back next winter), ISP-MSP, ISP-MSY, OKC-SAN, BNA-TPA, MSY-PVD, and SAN-TUL. I believe a few of these routes were cut before they even began (CLT-ISP and ORD-ONT are two I know for sure, and I believe that CVG-SEA suffered the same fate). DEN, the station that had the most routes announced last July, has managed to retain all 21 of the routes they announced from there last July (up to this point), though, as you mention, some of them have been running for a very short time (DEN-JAC just launched 4 days ago, in fact). I believe that having 73 (possibly 74) of those routes still running almost a year after that announcement is pretty good, especially given F9’s track record of quickly entering and exiting markets.


I don't have insider info, but this number seems way off to me. I picked TPA to check because they announced a ton of routes at that time. Of the 10 routes they announced, I'm not seeing TPA-CMH/IND/MCI/MKE/MSP/BNA/STL for sale at all, a few other routes end before the end of the schedule. Of the 8 routes they announced from MIA, only SJU remains and even that ends before the end of the schedule. Now TPA and MIA can be seasonal, so I check MCO and MCO-CID/TYS are also gone - if a route to MCO can't make it in the summer, I can't imagine it would work any other time of year. I won't go through the entire list, but already that is way more than you cited.
 
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mariner
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Re: Frontier Airlines Network Thread 2018

Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:48 am

msycajun wrote:
I don't have insider info, but this number seems way off to me. I picked TPA to check because they announced a ton of routes at that time. Of the 10 routes they announced, I'm not seeing TPA-CMH/IND/MCI/MKE/MSP/BNA/STL for sale at all, a few other routes end before the end of the schedule. Of the 8 routes they announced from MIA, only SJU remains and even that ends before the end of the schedule. Now TPA and MIA can be seasonal, so I check MCO and MCO-CID/TYS are also gone - if a route to MCO can't make it in the summer, I can't imagine it would work any other time of year. I won't go through the entire list, but already that is way more than you cited.


I just checked the TPA website and all the cities you quoted were listed as "seasonal." It always used to be that Frontier's use of the world "seasonal" - pertaining to Florida - meant ending in April.

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F9LASDEN
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Re: Frontier Airlines Network Thread 2018

Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:38 am

msycajun wrote:
F9LASDEN wrote:
717atOGG wrote:
Does anybody know how many of the 85 routes from Frontier's mega-expansion in July 2017 are still operating (routes made seasonal still included)? I know that lots, if not all, of the DEN routes have stuck (even though some of the DEN routes have only operated for a short time), but I don't know how many of the other routes are still around.

On another note, I agree with others on this forum that while it's frustrating to keep track of the F9 network, it's nice to see them trying unique routes and basically becoming the American FR/U2, and I feel like more of their routes are sticking around now compared to 2-3 years ago, which is a good sign.


Of the 85 routes announced last July, 12 have been cut: CLT-ISP, MCO-CUN, ORD-ONT, CVG-SEA, DTW-ISP, MIA-ISP (although it’s rumored that this route is coming back next winter), ISP-MSP, ISP-MSY, OKC-SAN, BNA-TPA, MSY-PVD, and SAN-TUL. I believe a few of these routes were cut before they even began (CLT-ISP and ORD-ONT are two I know for sure, and I believe that CVG-SEA suffered the same fate). DEN, the station that had the most routes announced last July, has managed to retain all 21 of the routes they announced from there last July (up to this point), though, as you mention, some of them have been running for a very short time (DEN-JAC just launched 4 days ago, in fact). I believe that having 73 (possibly 74) of those routes still running almost a year after that announcement is pretty good, especially given F9’s track record of quickly entering and exiting markets.


I don't have insider info, but this number seems way off to me. I picked TPA to check because they announced a ton of routes at that time. Of the 10 routes they announced, I'm not seeing TPA-CMH/IND/MCI/MKE/MSP/BNA/STL for sale at all, a few other routes end before the end of the schedule. Of the 8 routes they announced from MIA, only SJU remains and even that ends before the end of the schedule. Now TPA and MIA can be seasonal, so I check MCO and MCO-CID/TYS are also gone - if a route to MCO can't make it in the summer, I can't imagine it would work any other time of year. I won't go through the entire list, but already that is way more than you cited.


I don’t have insider info either, but I checked other areas rather than just seeing if a route is being sold right now (which none of their winter seasonal routes are). I checked on Wikipedia, which I know is not the most trustworthy source, but tends to be pretty accurate when it comes to the “Airlines and Destinations” portion of an airport’s page. A lot of the TPA routes they announced are seasonal routes (all of the ones you listed are). They ended in April when seasonal demand to Florida dies down. I’d wait until their next schedule extension (which will hopefully occur soon given that WN and NK both recently extended their schedules) before declaring that a lot of these routes are gone. I do find it interesting that CID/TYS-MCO are seasonal, but F9 has other seasonal routes out of MCO that only run during the winter (MSN, MSP, PIT to name a few), and other carriers run winter-only seasonal routes out of MCO as well (WN to DTW and MSP for example), so the routes not running during the summer is not an indication that it has been cut. The 12 routes I listed as being cut are routes that have been confirmed as being cut, rather than just seasonal stoppages. Just because a route is not on sale at this very moment does not mean that the route has been cut completely, and until it can be confirmed that a route is gone (which likely will not be until their winter schedule is released), I think it’s okay to continue assuming these routes will be returning, just like it’s okay to assume seasonal routes operated by other carriers will be returning until it’s confirmed they won’t be.
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WNflyer1523
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Re: Frontier Airlines Network Thread 2018

Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:30 pm

Balloonchaser wrote:
F9LASDEN wrote:
717atOGG wrote:
Does anybody know how many of the 85 routes from Frontier's mega-expansion in July 2017 are still operating (routes made seasonal still included)? I know that lots, if not all, of the DEN routes have stuck (even though some of the DEN routes have only operated for a short time), but I don't know how many of the other routes are still around.

On another note, I agree with others on this forum that while it's frustrating to keep track of the F9 network, it's nice to see them trying unique routes and basically becoming the American FR/U2, and I feel like more of their routes are sticking around now compared to 2-3 years ago, which is a good sign.


Of the 85 routes announced last July, 12 have been cut: CLT-ISP, MCO-CUN, ORD-ONT, CVG-SEA, DTW-ISP, MIA-ISP (although it’s rumored that this route is coming back next winter), ISP-MSP, ISP-MSY, OKC-SAN, BNA-TPA, MSY-PVD, and SAN-TUL. I believe a few of these routes were cut before they even began (CLT-ISP and ORD-ONT are two I know for sure, and I believe that CVG-SEA suffered the same fate). DEN, the station that had the most routes announced last July, has managed to retain all 21 of the routes they announced from there last July (up to this point), though, as you mention, some of them have been running for a very short time (DEN-JAC just launched 4 days ago, in fact). I believe that having 73 (possibly 74) of those routes still running almost a year after that announcement is pretty good, especially given F9’s track record of quickly entering and exiting markets.


It’s actually rumored that all of Frontiers routes from Islip (ISP) will come back at some point this year or next year for a seasonal schedule.

ISP-CLT - Winter Seasonal
ISP-DTW - F9 Stated that if loads ended up being high at the end of the quarter, then they may bring it back next year
ISP-MIA - Fall/Winter Seasonal
ISP-MSP - F9 Stated that if loads ended up being high at the end of the quarter, then they may bring it back next year
ISP-MSY - Spring/Summer Seasonal


Where did you hear the info on the ISP-CLT/MSY service?
 
jplatts
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Re: Frontier Airlines Network Thread 2018

Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:14 pm

F9 has not announced any new nonstop routes out of CVG since September 2017. F9 has recently started service out of MYR, CHS, SAV, and PNS, but F9 has never served any of these 4 leisure destinations nonstop from CVG. Will F9 be announcing nonstop service to any of these 4 leisure destinations from CVG anytime soon?

Will F9 announce any other new nonstop routes out of CVG such as CVG-MSY, CVG-MCI, or CVG-SLC soon?
 
cvgComair
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Re: Frontier Airlines Network Thread 2018

Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:47 pm

jplatts wrote:
F9 has not announced any new nonstop routes out of CVG since September 2017. F9 has recently started service out of MYR, CHS, SAV, and PNS, but F9 has never served any of these 4 leisure destinations nonstop from CVG. Will F9 be announcing nonstop service to any of these 4 leisure destinations from CVG anytime soon?

Will F9 announce any other new nonstop routes out of CVG such as CVG-MSY, CVG-MCI, or CVG-SLC soon?

I personally think that expansion at CVG is going to slow to a crawl for F9. As predicted when WN first arrived at CVG, I think WN is going to take over F9's current role at CVG. DL is also certainly forcing the pressure, as they compete with on most of F9's routes. I can see some more seasonal 2-3x/wk flights, but I don't see anymore of the massive expansions like they were doing in years past. G4 has taken over the role as #1 LCC at CVG and I don't see that changing anytime soon.
 
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mariner
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Re: Frontier Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:44 am

cvgComair wrote:
I personally think that expansion at CVG is going to slow to a crawl for F9. As predicted when WN first arrived at CVG, I think WN is going to take over F9's current role at CVG. DL is also certainly forcing the pressure, as they compete with on most of F9's routes. I can see some more seasonal 2-3x/wk flights, but I don't see anymore of the massive expansions like they were doing in years past. G4 has taken over the role as #1 LCC at CVG and I don't see that changing anytime soon.


Well - maybe. Anything's possible. But it's only six (?) weeks since Frontier had a big expansion at CVG:

https://www.lanereport.com/88958/2018/0 ... rs-at-cvg/

Frontier Airlines adds new routes, resumes others at CVG. The new routes launching in April are:

Austin, Tx. (April, 8)
Jacksonville, Fl. (April, 8)
San Jose, Ca. (April, 8)
Raleigh/Durham, NC (April, 9)
San Antonio, Tx. (April, 9)

Frontier will also resume service to/from Atlanta, Dallas, Philadelphia and San Diego on April, 8 with service resuming to Los Angeles, Minneapolis and Philadelphia on April, 9.


So, yeh, maybe that's it for a while. On the other hand - maybe not. In any event, it seems a little soon to predict the limits of Frontier at CVG.

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cvgComair
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Re: Frontier Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:22 am

mariner wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
I personally think that expansion at CVG is going to slow to a crawl for F9. As predicted when WN first arrived at CVG, I think WN is going to take over F9's current role at CVG. DL is also certainly forcing the pressure, as they compete with on most of F9's routes. I can see some more seasonal 2-3x/wk flights, but I don't see anymore of the massive expansions like they were doing in years past. G4 has taken over the role as #1 LCC at CVG and I don't see that changing anytime soon.


Well - maybe. Anything's possible. But it's only six (?) weeks since Frontier had a big expansion at CVG:

https://www.lanereport.com/88958/2018/0 ... rs-at-cvg/

Frontier Airlines adds new routes, resumes others at CVG. The new routes launching in April are:

Austin, Tx. (April, 8)
Jacksonville, Fl. (April, 8)
San Jose, Ca. (April, 8)
Raleigh/Durham, NC (April, 9)
San Antonio, Tx. (April, 9)

Frontier will also resume service to/from Atlanta, Dallas, Philadelphia and San Diego on April, 8 with service resuming to Los Angeles, Minneapolis and Philadelphia on April, 9.


So, yeh, maybe that's it for a while. On the other hand - maybe not. In any event, it seems a little soon to predict the limits of Frontier at CVG.

mariner

Yeah, but those were announced all the way back in July 2017. Since then, all they have done is reduced routes from CVG. CVG-SEA/MIA/FLL/PHX/PHL/CUN/IAH/SFO were cut, CVG-DEN/MCO/LAS/SFO/LAX lost frequency, and this fall many of the new routes will see more slashes in frequency. The adds of CVG-RDU/AUS/SAT/JAX/SJC helped offset this slightly, but seats are down YOY. Overall, it doesn't look very good.
Last edited by cvgComair on Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
phluser
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Re: Frontier Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:37 am

cvgComair wrote:
mariner wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
I personally think that expansion at CVG is going to slow to a crawl for F9. As predicted when WN first arrived at CVG, I think WN is going to take over F9's current role at CVG. DL is also certainly forcing the pressure, as they compete with on most of F9's routes. I can see some more seasonal 2-3x/wk flights, but I don't see anymore of the massive expansions like they were doing in years past. G4 has taken over the role as #1 LCC at CVG and I don't see that changing anytime soon.


Well - maybe. Anything's possible. But it's only six (?) weeks since Frontier had a big expansion at CVG:

https://www.lanereport.com/88958/2018/0 ... rs-at-cvg/

Frontier Airlines adds new routes, resumes others at CVG. The new routes launching in April are:

Austin, Tx. (April, 8)
Jacksonville, Fl. (April, 8)
San Jose, Ca. (April, 8)
Raleigh/Durham, NC (April, 9)
San Antonio, Tx. (April, 9)

Frontier will also resume service to/from Atlanta, Dallas, Philadelphia and San Diego on April, 8 with service resuming to Los Angeles, Minneapolis and Philadelphia on April, 9.


So, yeh, maybe that's it for a while. On the other hand - maybe not. In any event, it seems a little soon to predict the limits of Frontier at CVG.

mariner

Yeah, but those were announced all the way back in July 2017. Since then, all they have done is reduced routes from CVG CVG-SEA/MIA/FLL/PHX/PHL/CUN/IAH/SFO were cut, CVG-DEN/MCO/LAS/SFO/LAX lost frequency, and this fall many of the new routes will see more slashes in frequency. The adds of CVG-RDU/AUS/SAT/JAX/SJC helped offset this slightly, but seats are down YOY. Overall, it doesn't look very good.


PHL-CVG's last day of service is 8/11 - which to me is about one month too early for it to be about the seasons. Kids in PHL/NJ area tend to start school after Labor Day, and as such, August is still popular for vacations. I honestly don't know to what extent AA was fare matching though, but there is a lot of low fare availability on BWI-CVG because of WN trying to grow the market, and maybe the residue of competing with G4 and DL. But, the price sensitive crowd might be willing to use BWI when there are ample flights at low fares at various times, where at PHL it's limited to F9's limited schedule, and maybe AA's fare matched flights - which is likely a lot less seats. WN has $73 wanna get away at BWI just next month - likely one of the lowest available fare markets from WN out of BWI, aside from low fares you might get on BWI-BOS.
 
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mariner
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Re: Frontier Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:50 am

cvgComair wrote:
Yeah, but those were announced all the way back in July 2017. Since then, all they have done is reduced routes from CVG CVG-SEA/MIA/FLL/PHX/PHL/CUN/IAH/SFO were cut, CVG-DEN/MCO/LAS/SFO/LAX lost frequency, and this fall many of the new routes will see more slashes in frequency. The adds of CVG-RDU/AUS/SAT/JAX/SJC helped offset this slightly, but seats are down YOY. Overall, it doesn't look very good.


The thing I've learned over the years I've followed Frontier is not to make pronouncements about the future. All you say may be true, but without repeating myself I'm suspicious of any prediction. If it "slows to a crawl" them something will replace it - those aircraft keep coming.

The route map is not a static thing. Same with cancellations. I remember when Frontier first suspended in August - there were gasps of horror. Much too early., a.netters said.

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717atOGG
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Re: Frontier Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:42 am

I've been doing some research about the lack of IAD domestic service, similar to MXP in Europe until U2 expanded there, and I think that if F9 has some patience with making routes from there work, IAD could feasibly become a larger station for F9, about the size of CVG, LAS, or MCO. There's plenty of gate space at IAD during non-peak hours, so space wouldn't be an issue, the only problem I can think of is if there's enough room in the market for them, with the 600-pound gorilla at BWI known as WN and NK having a not-insignificant operation there either, and AA in DCA, and obviously UA in IAD. Of course, if UA pulls the same stunt they did to kick out Independence Air, the idea is toast, but I still think that F9 expanding is an interesting idea and something to consider.

Here's some of the markets that F9 could add. I chose a mixture of high-demand routes from IAD and trendy F9 markets that they don't already serve from IAD. For a frame of reference, they currently do AUS, LAS (though it's ending in August), MCO, SAT, and TUL year-round and COS and DEN seasonally. Also note that some markets are meant to be seasonal, namely SAV, CHS, MYR, and PWM in the summer and PBI and RSW in the winter.

Image
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F9LASDEN
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Re: Frontier Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:47 am

717atOGG wrote:
I've been doing some research about the lack of IAD domestic service, similar to MXP in Europe until U2 expanded there, and I think that if F9 has some patience with making routes from there work, IAD could feasibly become a larger station for F9, about the size of CVG, LAS, or MCO. There's plenty of gate space at IAD during non-peak hours, so space wouldn't be an issue, the only problem I can think of is if there's enough room in the market for them, with the 600-pound gorilla at BWI known as WN and NK having a not-insignificant operation there either, and AA in DCA, and obviously UA in IAD. Of course, if UA pulls the same stunt they did to kick out Independence Air, the idea is toast, but I still think that F9 expanding is an interesting idea and something to consider.

Here's some of the markets that F9 could add. I chose a mixture of high-demand routes from IAD and trendy F9 markets that they don't already serve from IAD. For a frame of reference, they currently do AUS, LAS (though it's ending in August), MCO, SAT, and TUL year-round and COS and DEN seasonally. Also note that some markets are meant to be seasonal, namely SAV, CHS, MYR, and PWM in the summer and PBI and RSW in the winter.

Image


It doesn’t look like IAD-LAS is being cut completely, it looks like it’s just moving from being a daily flight to a sub-daily. It’s still bookable on their website. It appears to be switching to 4x weekly (M/W/F/Sa) flight in late August, and then at some point in the fall it becomes 3x weekly (T/Th/Su).

The idea of expanding IAD into a sizable operation is an interesting one. I think the biggest problem with their last attempt at building a focus city in IAD was the quick entry and very rapid expansion, which led to failure due to the unsustainable growth they attempted in a very short period of time. More gradual growth, introducing only a few routes at a time and making sure the routes are on stable ground before introducing more, may be a better way to go, and I could see them having success with it.
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