rrapynot
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Why is PHX underserved by long haul routes?

Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:12 pm

The only long haul route from PHX is BA to LHR. Seems like a great opportunity for Norwegian, Icelandair, WOW, Thomas Cook/Condor or even one of the legacies.
 
travaz
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Re: Why is PHX underserved by long haul routes?

Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:22 pm

Condor to FRA starts in May twice weekly, M and F.
 
jubguy3
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Re: Why is PHX underserved by long haul routes?

Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:22 pm

It's geographically inconvenient for long haul routes and AA/OW is not good to their hubs. That's why you see more long haul in SLC/DEN because the alliances there drive traffic that AA / OW doesn't.
 
TUSDawg23
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Re: Why is PHX underserved by long haul routes?

Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:26 pm

rrapynot wrote:
The only long haul route from PHX is BA to LHR. Seems like a great opportunity for Norwegian, Icelandair, WOW, Thomas Cook/Condor or even one of the legacies.


Condor is going to be flying PHX-FRA as a seasonal service starting in May. I have no idea what the market is like for PHX-KEF, but I'd imagine it is tiny.

Arizonans have been begging AA or a OW partner to start PHX-NRT for years, but it doesn't look like that is on the horizon. The common argument is that PHX doesn't have enough high yield traffic to get more longhaul intl service from the legacies. With the rice of the LCC/ULCC longhaul carriers there are some opportunities, but I would imagine those would be seasonal at best.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Why is PHX underserved by long haul routes?

Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:28 pm

Condor already has a seasonal flight to Frankfurt from Phoenix. It's stopped for the winter at the moment, but will resume in may.

Furthermore I think it's not a city or region that draws a lot of tourists from Europe, specially not when you got Los Angeles just down the road which is way more popular than Phoenix. Los Angeles has everything, but what does Phoenix have? Nothing that I can think of actually.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Why is PHX underserved by long haul routes?

Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:41 pm

As I posted in the ME3 PHX discussion thread, the facts are that based on O&D stats, the international draw outside of Canada is minimal. Even many Mexico markets are thinner than one would think based on the region's population.

Outside of London link and charters like service from a few large European gateways, longhaul demand drops pretty fast. Maybe one day it might attract a Far East flight like Tokyo but that would be heavily reliant on OW connections itself as the local demand is barely 30 pax/day.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
travaz
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Re: Why is PHX underserved by long haul routes?

Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:46 pm

LAXintl wrote:
As I posted in the ME3 PHX discussion thread, the facts are that based on O&D stats, the international draw outside of Canada is minimal. Even many Mexico markets are thinner than one would think based on the region's population.

Outside of London link and charters like service from a few large European gateways, longhaul demand drops pretty fast. Maybe one day it might attract a Far East flight like Tokyo but that would be heavily reliant on OW connections itself as the local demand is barely 30 pax/day.


I totally agree Laxintl. As someone who live and travels out of Phoenix to both Europe and Asia (maybe 2 trips to Europe a year and 1 or 2 to Asia) I really dont find the connection in London or in LAX to be that inconvenient. There are so many flights to LAX from PHX that you can make the layover anything you want. I prefer AA because i have Platinum Status, I will often go to LAX or DFW for LHR flights. Would i love non stops to Asia? Of course but I am 1 person who travels twice a year. I wont fill many planes.
 
Lennundus
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Re: Why is PHX underserved by long haul routes?

Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:32 pm

I think PHX is drastically underserved with long haul flights, especially compared to smaller cities that have more service such as SLC, AUS, and PDX. Phoenix is not a small City and should be able to support a few more flights.
 
Aliqiout
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Re: Why is PHX underserved by long haul routes?

Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:42 pm

TUSDawg23 wrote:
rrapynot wrote:

I have no idea what the market is like for PHX-KEF, but I'd imagine it is tiny.

.

I don't think the PHX-KEF market is relevant to the decision by FI or WW to not add the route yet.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Why is PHX underserved by long haul routes?

Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:11 pm

Lennundus wrote:
I think PHX is drastically underserved with long haul flights,.

Though why you'd still think that, after being informed that the demand is far less than most areas of similar size, is anyone's guess.

Airlines are businesses, not charities. If the demand isn't there, then they don't waste their assets and efforts.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
jmc1975
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Re: Why is PHX underserved by long haul routes?

Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:17 pm

Don’t forget that LH had nonstops to FRA from 2001 to 2004 using A342/A343. The Arizona governor at the time made virtually no effort to promote Arizona commerce or tourism. LH’s problem now is they don’t have the right aircraft in their fleet. They A333 would be the largest feasible aircraft, but it would have severe performance limitations...sadly LH has no A332s.
Last edited by jmc1975 on Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
.......
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Why is PHX underserved by long haul routes?

Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:20 pm

It seems like a really good opportunity for a ULCC. Paris or Amsterdam less than daily seems easy to fill.
 
SeaDoo
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Re: Why is PHX underserved by long haul routes?

Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:30 pm

I wonder if Norwegian is looking at PHX. Seems like perhaps their less than daily flights might work. Lots of Germans visit the Grand Canyon. I have talked to many Dutch in Arizona who like the American Southwest as they say there is nothing like it in Europe. I wonder if my anecdotal experience with Germans and Dutch would work with a carrier like Norwegian.
 
INFINITI329
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Re: Why is PHX underserved by long haul routes?

Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:49 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Condor already has a seasonal flight to Frankfurt from Phoenix. It's stopped for the winter at the moment, but will resume in may.

Furthermore I think it's not a city or region that draws a lot of tourists from Europe, specially not when you got Los Angeles just down the road which is way more popular than Phoenix. Los Angeles has everything, but what does Phoenix have? Nothing that I can think of actually.


Incorrect... Condor has not commenced service to PHX. Service beings on May 18
 
FlyingColours
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Re: Why is PHX underserved by long haul routes?

Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:54 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Los Angeles has everything, but what does Phoenix have? Nothing that I can think of actually.


Phoenix has the Rusty Spur Saloon ;)

To be honest this topic is right up my street given I am trying to arrange a holiday in Scottsdale towards the end of the year, we did visit for a week last October but we were staying in Vegas so just arranged the flights from there. My options are either MAN-PHL-PHX or MAN-LHR-PHX, going with AA would be the better option but the connection at PHL is far too short so it looks like we will have to do BA from Heathrow (our last experience on a BA 747 left quite a lot to be desired - worst flight I'd ever had but I digress).

I am surprised that LHR is the only long haul route out of PHX, perhaps with some of the aforementioned publicity other airlines may be enticed to dip their toes in or at least improve connections at other gateways.

Phil
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jfk777
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Re: Why is PHX underserved by long haul routes?

Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:30 pm

Other American cities with equally sized populations and incomes have nonstops to Europe. Being in the wrong corner for Atlantic flights has to have something to do with it. An airline like KLM would be a great candidate for a flight to PHX especially with a 787-9.
 
DaufuskieGuy
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Re: Why is PHX underserved by long haul routes?

Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:38 pm

jmc1975 wrote:
Don’t forget that LH had nonstops to FRA from 2001 to 2004 using A342/A343. The Arizona governor at the time made virtually no effort to promote Arizona commerce or tourism. LH’s problem now is they don’t have the right aircraft in their fleet. They A333 would be the largest feasible aircraft, but it would have severe performance limitations...sadly LH has no A332s.


they could do it with Cityline 343s like they have to other sun bird destinations (eg TPA). Would think German POS in the winter and US POS in the summer would be strong. Also as much as PHX is a "hub" I don't really see how they get the connecting traffic like a DEN or SLC, it's too far west and south (and smack between LAX/DFW), which doesn't encourage anyone to try long haul
 
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Re: Why is PHX underserved by long haul routes?

Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:42 pm

jfk777 wrote:
Other American cities with equally sized populations and incomes have nonstops to Europe. Being in the wrong corner for Atlantic flights has to have something to do with it. An airline like KLM would be a great candidate for a flight to PHX especially with a 787-9.

Other American cities have business headquartered with more long haul demand. For example, LAXintl noted Tokyo had the highest Asia demand at 30 pax/day. The 787 dramatically cuts the minimum number. If HND were to expand and offer more connections, one Fortune 500 moving to Phoenix might enable 3X/week service. But it would require AA or WN feeding the flight and good connections in Tokyo to handle 160+ passengers elsewhere. If Tokyo is demand #1,that means connections to 30 to 50 other cities. Impossible with how Tokyo currently operates.
It is good to be a fan, but ignoring reality doesn't help. Recall how much premium traffic is on business jets. There isn't the yeilds there once we're, so there must be volume, in particular J volume.

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CHI2DFW
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Re: Why is PHX underserved by long haul routes?

Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:54 pm

First DTW, then CLT, now PHX!

If a market was there to be served profitably, someone would fly it.
 
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JBusworth
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Re: Why is PHX underserved by long haul routes?

Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:18 pm

If AA/OW are actually interested I n making ALL of there hubs large and feasible, I'm sure PHX could have flights to Tokyo and Hong Kong at least, but thats not gonna happen any time time
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Why is PHX underserved by long haul routes?

Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:44 am

Aren't performance considerations part of the issue? Meaning, the summer heat.
 
jubguy3
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Re: Why is PHX underserved by long haul routes?

Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:48 am

jfk777 wrote:
Other American cities with equally sized populations and incomes have nonstops to Europe. Being in the wrong corner for Atlantic flights has to have something to do with it. An airline like KLM would be a great candidate for a flight to PHX especially with a 787-9.


Episode ten of "people don't understand the importance of fortress hubs and alliances". It's a miracle that KLM serves SLC and SLC is a highly profitable SkyTeam hub. If you want a flight to Paris or Norwegian, there's a place called "Salt Lake City" a few hundred miles away you can take a short hop to. They aren't going to overfly a SkyTeam fortress hub for Phoenix. It wasn't on the shortlist of cities KLM considered serving either, which included Denver.

Phoenix has trouble attracting these flights because it is more of a suburb of 5 million people than a city.
 
wave46
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Re: Why is PHX underserved by long haul routes?

Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:09 am

There are probably several factors in Phoenix's lack of long-haul routes.

1. Competition on various long-haul routes. LAX and SFO can handle Asia bound passengers with a greater variety of airlines and destinations. LAX and LAS draws tourist traffic. Transiting one of the many hubs in the east can get you most places in Europe. Dallas and Houston have better connections to South America. Phoenix acts as a local hub to distribute passengers to international hubs.

2. Distance. Being in the southwest, Phoenix isn't really optimally situated for flights from Europe or Asia.

3. While the city of Phoenix is nice, the main tourist draws in Arizona are outside of the city itself, limiting its own tourism potential. The Grand Canyon is accessible from Las Vegas.
 
jfk777
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Re: Why is PHX underserved by long haul routes?

Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:21 am

IF BA can make PHX work with a 744 with a Premium configuration( including 14 First seats) another airline with a large fortress European hub should be able to make something work with a 787, A330 or 772ER with a more Y seats and only 30 to 40 J class seats. As someone observed PHX has a population of 5 million people.

AA has a large hub there so if all the ingredients are there and work in other cities why not Phoenix ? AA could feed flights from all over the southwest over PHX to Europe, connecting in DFW is not everything. Between DFW and LAX & SFO there is very limited European service via Denver, SLC and Las Vegas. All the people of Mexican decent in the southwest should make a flights to Madrid possible for AA or Iberia. AS much as LHR has to be the center of AA activities to Europe it is not everything. Not everything to Europe has to go through Philadelphia, it time for AA to spread the long haul wealth to the only hub that doesn't have any long hauls for AA.
 
jubguy3
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Re: Why is PHX underserved by long haul routes?

Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:44 am

jfk777 wrote:
IF BA can make PHX work with a 744 with a Premium configuration( including 14 First seats) another airline with a large fortress European hub should be able to make something work with a 787, A330 or 772ER with a more Y seats and only 30 to 40 J class seats. As someone observed PHX has a population of 5 million people.

AA has a large hub there so if all the ingredients are there and work in other cities why not Phoenix ? AA could feed flights from all over the southwest over PHX to Europe, connecting in DFW is not everything. Between DFW and LAX & SFO there is very limited European service via Denver, SLC and Las Vegas. All the people of Mexican decent in the southwest should make a flights to Madrid possible for AA or Iberia. AS much as LHR has to be the center of AA activities to Europe it is not everything. Not everything to Europe has to go through Philadelphia, it time for AA to spread the long haul wealth to the only hub that doesn't have any long hauls for AA.


Being of Mexican descent rarely ever means a person has any connection to Spain. What a weird comment.
 
Lennundus
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Re: Why is PHX underserved by long haul routes?

Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:51 am

jfk777 wrote:
IF BA can make PHX work with a 744 with a Premium configuration( including 14 First seats) another airline with a large fortress European hub should be able to make something work with a 787, A330 or 772ER with a more Y seats and only 30 to 40 J class seats. As someone observed PHX has a population of 5 million people.

AA has a large hub there so if all the ingredients are there and work in other cities why not Phoenix ? AA could feed flights from all over the southwest over PHX to Europe, connecting in DFW is not everything. Between DFW and LAX & SFO there is very limited European service via Denver, SLC and Las Vegas. All the people of Mexican decent in the southwest should make a flights to Madrid possible for AA or Iberia. AS much as LHR has to be the center of AA activities to Europe it is not everything. Not everything to Europe has to go through Philadelphia, it time for AA to spread the long haul wealth to the only hub that doesn't have any long hauls for AA.


I have to agree with this. BA had also added frequencies which makes me wonder why other airlines could not make PHX work.
 
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Re: Why is PHX underserved by long haul routes?

Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:02 am

jfk777 wrote:
Other American cities with equally sized populations and incomes have nonstops to Europe. Being in the wrong corner for Atlantic flights has to have something to do with it. An airline like KLM would be a great candidate for a flight to PHX especially with a 787-9.


Most of those other cities are either already hubs, as has been noted are significant business centers or are located where there is more to see/do in easy reach than PHX.

Example BDL - Easy drive to Boston or New York, all over New England and even the Mid-lantic region. Good for in-bound tourists, and catchment for outbound New Englanders going to Europe who want to avoid JFK, EWR or BOS.
 
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janders
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Re: Why is PHX underserved by long haul routes?

Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:03 am

Keep in mind, BA flight has the benefit of hubs on both ends. I doubt far less than 50% of the plane has anything to do with PHX or LHR. Its about connectivity across the 2-hubs.
"We make war that we may live in peace." -- Aristotle
 
wave46
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Re: Why is PHX underserved by long haul routes?

Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:06 am

Lennundus wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
IF BA can make PHX work with a 744 with a Premium configuration( including 14 First seats) another airline with a large fortress European hub should be able to make something work with a 787, A330 or 772ER with a more Y seats and only 30 to 40 J class seats. As someone observed PHX has a population of 5 million people.

AA has a large hub there so if all the ingredients are there and work in other cities why not Phoenix ? AA could feed flights from all over the southwest over PHX to Europe, connecting in DFW is not everything. Between DFW and LAX & SFO there is very limited European service via Denver, SLC and Las Vegas. All the people of Mexican decent in the southwest should make a flights to Madrid possible for AA or Iberia. AS much as LHR has to be the center of AA activities to Europe it is not everything. Not everything to Europe has to go through Philadelphia, it time for AA to spread the long haul wealth to the only hub that doesn't have any long hauls for AA.


I have to agree with this. BA had also added frequencies which makes me wonder why other airlines could not make PHX work.


BA has their Oneworld partner AA to help fill flights. Given that PHX is a Oneworld hub, it would likely have to be either a Oneworld member or a leisure airline (like Condor is trying in 2018).

To Europe, it would be either Finnair or Iberia. To Asia, it could be JAL or Cathay Pacific. None of them strike me as being a great fit for the market. If PHX was a Star Alliance hub, Lufthansa might be a good choice.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Why is PHX underserved by long haul routes?

Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:40 am

JBusworth wrote:
If AA/OW are actually interested I n making ALL of there hubs large and feasible, I'm sure PHX could have flights to Tokyo and Hong Kong at least, but thats not gonna happen any time time

But they aren't interested in that, because that wouldn't be sound fiscal decision making.

No hub "deserves" anything. A hub only gets a longhaul service if that hub can offer the airline a lower opportunity-cost than pursuing other options.


jfk777 wrote:
IF BA can make PHX work with a 744 with a Premium configuration( including 14 First seats) another airline with a large fortress European hub should be able to make something work with a 787, A330 or 772ER with a more Y seats and only 30 to 40 J class seats. As someone observed PHX has a population of 5 million people.

You're just restating a query that's already been (accurately) addressed here multiple times by multiple people.

Look at what Lightsaber wrote: it's an accurate assessment. Population means NOTHING if demand at yield isn't present.... which at PHX, it currently isn't. Condor will show us if that's changed, but we won't know for another half year or more.

Hell, even airports like AUS, MSY, RDU etc; who do a fraction of PHX's throughput and have much smaller populations, still have more European routes--- because they have the DEMAND for it. PHX, as of now, does not.
Last edited by LAX772LR on Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Why is PHX underserved by long haul routes?

Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:43 am

In general, long-haul from US cities are Tokyo to the west and London to the east. Alliances mean additional airports that are flown to, hence SLC with CDG/AMS service and DEN with FRA/MUC service. In PHX's case, since it's a OW hub, naturally the TATL service would be to LHR. You then have IB, who has always been more focused in Latin America market, and AY, which is way too far east to matter.

On the TPAC side, PHX will always be overshadowed by its much larger neighbor to the west called LAX. Geography wise, PHX is pretty much the same as LAX for TPAC connection anyway. LAX, however, has a much larger local market. It's just really hard to beat the 9x daily flight from Tokyo to LAX (For comparison, there are only 4x daily flight from TYO to SFO; 5x TYO to NYC. The only larger market from Tokyo to US? HNL of course)
Free Hong Kong! Free China!
 
travaz
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Re: Why is PHX underserved by long haul routes?

Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:08 am

I have seen it stated on this forum that PHX was always going to be the connection points for places North and West not an international fortress. If you look at the departing flights most are PHX-SFO-SAN-LAS-SEA-DEN-SLC-and others and then there are points east such as PHL- CLIT-ETC. Unless you are in PHX you are not going to fly to PHX for a flight to LHR or TYO. PHX is for domestic connecting traffic from the west and inter mountain region and will never have a large amount of International OPS. IMHO
 
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KrustyTheKlown
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Re: Why is PHX underserved by long haul routes?

Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:48 am

Phoenix is no small city, but it certainly isn't a global city. Its economy is chiefly focused on industries that are more regional than global.

Even the largest tech employer in the area (Intel) keeps its global operations in San Jose and Portland, so they do not generate much long-haul demand out of Phoenix.
 
jsta1981
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Re: Why is PHX underserved by long haul routes?

Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:58 am

rrapynot wrote:
The only long haul route from PHX is BA to LHR. Seems like a great opportunity for Norwegian, Icelandair, WOW, Thomas Cook/Condor or even one of the legacies.


Who determined that Phoenix is underserved? Its in a weird location for transatlantic flights, has easy los angeles connections just a short flight away, it's not a strong business city, and who actually goes to Phoenix anyway other than golfers and old people. Why would someone from Europe fly to Phoenix...other than to see the grand canyon, and even then itd be way better to fly into las Vegas where there is lots of entertainment and the grand canyon isn't that much further from Vegas.
If anything....phoenix is perfectly served.
 
Danny49er1997
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Re: Why is PHX underserved by long haul routes?

Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:08 am

As someone who lives in the Phoenix area (Cave Creek), yes it is not the most touristy destination especially for anyone outside the US, Sky Harbor is a good hub airport that should have at least a few more international routes! Scottsdale is a popular tourist attraction!
 
irelayer
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Re: Why is PHX underserved by long haul routes?

Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:33 am

jfk777 wrote:
As someone observed PHX has a population of 5 million people.

AA has a large hub there so if all the ingredients are there and work in other cities why not Phoenix ? AA could feed flights from all over the southwest over PHX to Europe, connecting in DFW is not everything.


Where is that feed coming from? LAS? TUS? ABQ? El Paso? Fairly limited range of options there. Remember LAX is an AA hub too. For anything between AZ and TX you have DFW. For anything west of Phoenix, you have LAX. Not sure why you would have a flight that relies on feed from a few small cities and very little O/D when you can just fly from either of those two hubs and reliably fill the plane up with O/D pax.

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Re: Why is PHX underserved by long haul routes?

Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:52 am

jfk777 wrote:
IF BA can make PHX work with a 744 with a Premium configuration( including 14 First seats) another airline with a large fortress European hub should be able to make something work with a 787, A330 or 772ER with a more Y seats and only 30 to 40 J class seats. As someone observed PHX has a population of 5 million people.


BA actually uses the low-J(non-premium) 744 to Phoenix.
 
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Re: Why is PHX underserved by long haul routes?

Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:06 am

irelayer wrote:
Where is that feed coming from? LAS? TUS? ABQ? El Paso? Fairly limited range of options there.

Actually, the entire portion of Southern California where people find it more convenient to connect through Phoenix than drive to LAX ...

Danny49er1997 wrote:
As someone who lives in the Phoenix area (Cave Creek), yes it is not the most touristy destination especially for anyone outside the US, Sky Harbor is a good hub airport that should have at least a few more international routes! Scottsdale is a popular tourist attraction!


I think there is sufficient demand, else Condor would not have launched the new summer route from FRA. I doubt that Germans come here for Scottsdale. But it's a good gateway to tour the parks in the southern Arizona, as well as Sedona and up north to the Grand Canyon and Monument Valley. I think, a lot of folks may opt for open-jaw itineraries with Phoenix and Las Vegas as start or end points.
"Once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes forever skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return." -Leonardo Da Vinci
 
phxsanslcpdx
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Re: Why is PHX underserved by long haul routes?

Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:52 am

I agree with the many folks who have commented that low demand is the driving reason for the scarcity of international service to PHX. Nonetheless, something's going to need to change in the next few years: the 747s are on their way out at BA. I guess there's some chance they might upgauge to the A380 (can Sky Harbor handle it?). More likely, though, BA will need to downgauge. And I think it's unlikely that they'll choose to use another LHR slot on Phoenix. Constricting supply on PHX-LHR will present a window of opportunity for another PHX-Europe operator. My best guess is that AA/IAG will act ahead of the final 747 retirements, to try to keep that traffic. Either an EI A330 or an AA 787 PHX-DUB timed to coincide with a different PHX bank than the BA flight. Does anyone know the current PHX-DUB traffic?
 
FlyingColours
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Re: Why is PHX underserved by long haul routes?

Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:57 am

[quote="jsta1981"
who actually goes to Phoenix anyway other than golfers and old people.[/quote]

It's been about 6 years since I touched a golf club and I certainly am not an old person ;)

Scottsdale is the main reason me & my missus visit, this time round we will be using it as a base for our holiday and hiring a truck and checking out the boneyards down at Marana, Goodyear, Kingman and then driving over to MHV & VCV whilst stopping in Vegas for a night. By the way, what's it like around New Year? So it's not necessarily about staying in the area though I admit, just because 2 people do it doesn't mean thousands want to.

It's not necessarily about PHX being the end destination, it could be a better option for connections. Take a look at passengers who want to travel from Manchester to Las Vegas, aside from the charter flights (I'm classing VS as charter here) they have no direct options. Now if they want to fly with Oneworld their options are either go to Heathrow and fly over or go via Philadelphia or Chicago. The flight to Heathrow is an hour and then it's a nine hour flight across which is reasonable enough (although I wouldn't wish the BA747s on anyone) so that leaves PHL and ORD, not going into the joys of connecting at PHL the passengers who've just done an 8 hour flight are now on a 4-5 hour onward flight. If there was a direct flight MAN-PHX then a one hour flight PHX-LAS would be more appealing, it doesn't have to be MAN (I'm using it as an example given that's where I am).

I wonder had US & AA not merged would PHX have seen expansion as a long haul hub?

Phil
FlyingColours
Lifes a train racing towards you, now you can either run away or grab a chair & a beer and watch it come - Phil
 
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piedmontf284000
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Re: Why is PHX underserved by long haul routes?

Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:50 am

LAXintl wrote:
Maybe one day it might attract a Far East flight like Tokyo but that would be heavily reliant on OW connections itself as the local demand is barely 30 pax/day.


Ironically as I was reading this quote, I noted that this flight is currently in the air...NH9409. It is PHX-NRT on ANA 787-9.
 
hz747300
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Re: Why is PHX underserved by long haul routes?

Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:14 am

As an AZ native living in HKG who sees several people making the same connections from the HKG flight to the port of entry and onward to Phoenix every Christmas, I do wonder. But in reality, I know the answer. High yield demand, even connecting demand, would make the route happen, but it is not there yet.

Phoenix is a large city (5th?) with an even larger metro area, but lower median incomes and a population that does not seek a lot of overseas travel, or as I think, the population is fine with a 1 hop to pretty much any other city in the world.

The same with the Mexico flights--if the yield was there, the route would come about.

I think you may see LCC Long Haul add a flight or 2 to Europe, but not daily. I think that JAL may add a Tokyo flight (Hell, America West used to fly to Nagoya from Phoenix, via Honolulu).

But from a tourist perspective, PHX does not have a lot to offer. The state does, and it's mostly in the north. So people add those attractions to their Vegas trips--after five days of blow and working girls, they want to see a dam and a big hole in the ground.

I hope with the A350 / 787 world we do see some 'long thin routes' to PHX. Let's wait and see.
Keep on truckin'...
 
jfk777
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Re: Why is PHX underserved by long haul routes?

Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:29 pm

bagoldex wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
IF BA can make PHX work with a 744 with a Premium configuration( including 14 First seats) another airline with a large fortress European hub should be able to make something work with a 787, A330 or 772ER with a more Y seats and only 30 to 40 J class seats. As someone observed PHX has a population of 5 million people.


BA actually uses the low-J(non-premium) 744 to Phoenix.


ALL BA 744 have 14 First Class seats including the low J with 52 seats and the 70 J and 86 J versions.
 
jfk777
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Re: Why is PHX underserved by long haul routes?

Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:32 pm

jubguy3 wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
IF BA can make PHX work with a 744 with a Premium configuration( including 14 First seats) another airline with a large fortress European hub should be able to make something work with a 787, A330 or 772ER with a more Y seats and only 30 to 40 J class seats. As someone observed PHX has a population of 5 million people.

AA has a large hub there so if all the ingredients are there and work in other cities why not Phoenix ? AA could feed flights from all over the southwest over PHX to Europe, connecting in DFW is not everything. Between DFW and LAX & SFO there is very limited European service via Denver, SLC and Las Vegas. All the people of Mexican decent in the southwest should make a flights to Madrid possible for AA or Iberia. AS much as LHR has to be the center of AA activities to Europe it is not everything. Not everything to Europe has to go through Philadelphia, it time for AA to spread the long haul wealth to the only hub that doesn't have any long hauls for AA.


Being of Mexican descent rarely ever means a person has any connection to Spain. What a weird comment.


The link is a historical one, why is it that so many more Latin Americans fly to Madrid then other European destinations ? They speak Spanish in Latin America and in Spain, common culture. The link should be obvious.
 
wn676
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Re: Why is PHX underserved by long haul routes?

Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:06 pm

piedmontf284000 wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Maybe one day it might attract a Far East flight like Tokyo but that would be heavily reliant on OW connections itself as the local demand is barely 30 pax/day.


Ironically as I was reading this quote, I noted that this flight is currently in the air...NH9409. It is PHX-NRT on ANA 787-9.


Baseball charters are probably the only flights to Asia you’ll see in PHX with any sort of regularity for the foreseeable future.
Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
 
AF022
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Re: Why is PHX underserved by long haul routes?

Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:25 pm

PHX doesn't have the yields.
 
UpNAWAy
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Re: Why is PHX underserved by long haul routes?

Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:02 pm

AA has the data of the folks traveling to PHX then on to LAX or MIA, PHL, CLT then international for a 2 stop connection. If any international destination could come close to filling half a plane I bet they would add it. The only other chance I see of an AA international flight would be as an LAX reliever. The right aircraft availability for that distance and market is also a factor.
 
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FA9295
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Re: Why is PHX underserved by long haul routes?

Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:43 pm

I expect WOWair or Icelandair to have a KEF-PHX route within the next few years. SLC and SAN (and possibly ABQ and ONT non-realistic outliers) would be the only other contenders (geographically) that could also receive such service...
 
ILS28ORD
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Re: Why is PHX underserved by long haul routes?

Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:47 pm

Phoenix is a winter vacation destination for northerners and Canadians and hotter than hell in the summer. It's mainly a retirement/resort get away spot. The demand to Europe is probably minimal at best. While there is a lot to do and see in AZ, I can't imagine it's at the top of the list for foreigners unless you really want to see the Grand Canyon or Sedona. Las Vegas, LA, SF and San Diego are near by and draw a lot more people from out of the country.
 
Flighty
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Re: Why is PHX underserved by long haul routes?

Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:08 pm

I have to disagree with the folks saying "AA does not serve Europe from PHX." Yes, AA does serve PHX to Europe nonstop through its Atlantic joint venture. The joint venture company fleets this market with the BA 747. Whether it has BA or AA paint on the outside is not a big deal.

Why is the capacity low? Because in addition to low demand, PHX is a poor location for hubbing except for secondary California cities and Hawaii, which isn't nearly enough connectivity to turn PHX into a Denver. PHX's location is poor. No hate though.

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