Bnetraveller
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Qantas and B747-8

Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:33 am

Hi All,
Over the past few of years, I've seen alot discussions and opinions why the new B747-8 won't be purchased by Qantas and Qantas is highly likely heading down the direction of B777/B787 or a A350. While these would suit for the shorter international ruotes, in many ways a B747-8 could be a good fit and a real alternative to the issues faced by QANTAS in terms of distance (from Australia) to other current continents as well as open new cities in Africa and South America to carry the passengers they wish to carry as well as qualify for ETOPS requirements without any special conditions on two engine aircraft.

I would like to hear from the wider airliner.net community why a B747-8 could work for QANTAS. I don't hear about the whole B777/B787/A350 has two less engines (than a B747), less fuel, less weight agrument that has been discussed at length previously (and is very simple argument) but a genuine technical assessment and reply that B747-8 could a great replacement for A380 and B777/A350 alternative.

Thanks all.
Last edited by Bnetraveller on Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
c933103
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Re: Qantas and B747-8

Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:37 am

I heard that, while A350/B777/B748 get 330/370 minutes ETOPS/EDTO in US/Europe, this is not the case in Australia?
When no other countries around the world is going to militarily stop China and its subordinate fom abusing its citizens within its national boundary, it is unreasonable to expect those abuse can be countered with purely peaceful means.
 
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idp5601
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Re: Qantas and B747-8

Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:43 am

If QF really wanted to expand to Africa and South America (where the yields do not warrant a 747) the 748 would be the worst choice for them; they'd be better off with a 789 for those.

And if range was the biggest factor, remember the the 748's max range is 8000nm, which is a far cry from the A359ULR (advertised 9700nm) or the 777-8 (advertised 8690nm)

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jfk777
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Re: Qantas and B747-8

Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:41 pm

the 748 is dead and Qantas would only fly if Boeing gave it to them for free, the future at Qantas is the 787-9. The Perth hub and 787-9 will link Australia to several European destinations in the coming years. The 777-8/9 will probably link Sydney and Melbourne to LHR and JFK nonstop. 10 years from now when the A380 are old the 777-9 will probably be the largest plane on the QF fleet. Australian airports are not slot restricted so Qantas would have several flights on a route where demand is ore then a daily 777 even to Europe or the USA. The future at QF looks like lots of twins especially of the GE kind.
 
Arion640
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Re: Qantas and B747-8

Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:32 pm

Where would they fly too that they don't have the A380 to send.
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Newbiepilot
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Re: Qantas and B747-8

Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:52 pm

Bnetraveller wrote:

I would like to hear from the wider airliner.net community why a B747-8 could work for QANTAS. I don't hear about the whole B777/B787/A350 has two less engines (than a B747), less fuel, less weight agrument that has been discussed at length previously (and is very simple argument) but a genuine technical assessment and reply that B747-8 could a great replacement for A380 and B777/A350 alternative.


Telling people what to say usually is not a good way to start a thread.

The 747-8 from a range and capacity standpoint could work for QF. However its costs are high just like the A380. I think Qantas needs a cheaper and more nimble fleet. The market has changed for Qantas over the past two decades. There is a lot more competition and the days of QF dominating trunk routes of LAX-SYD and LHR-XXX-SYD are over.

If QF operated its own freighters, they may have ordered both the passenger and freighter versions of the 747-8, but they outsource their freighter routes to Atlas Air 747Fs.
 
EChid
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Re: Qantas and B747-8

Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:39 am

The whole issue with this thread is that the 747-8i just doesn't make sense for anybody. I'm still at a loss as to why LH, CA, and KE bought them (aside from great prices and some fleet commonality, and perhaps the ability to sell tickets at a slight premium for the upper deck). If you want something that is the size of the 747-8 passenger-wise, there are plenty of two-engine that get close enough for lower operating and maintenance costs (see the 777, A35X). Or, for almost the same operating costs and almost the same purchase price (especially now) you can get an A380 that is much more modern and carries more passengers.

Quite simply, the argument you are asking people to make cannot be made...which is why Qantas doesn't have any 787-8is.
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redroo
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Re: Qantas and B747-8

Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:33 pm

There was a lot of debate at the time about the 777 vs 380 at qantas. The 380 won out and it is widely seen as a mistake within qantas.

Qantas is unique in that it has to serve a number of geographically dispersed cities and fly long distances from those cities. The 789 gives them this flexibility. They can serve Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane and Perth with the same aircraft and fly almost anywhere in the world non stop. In their configuration it’s hardly any seats to fill either.

Sure there is a need for something bigger for some routes, but this will go to the 777X.

The 748 doesn’t give them anything. Just another large plane that they would struggle to fill most of the time from Melbourne, Perth and Brisbane.
 
AA737-823
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Re: Qantas and B747-8

Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:38 pm

Bnetraveller wrote:
but a genuine technical assessment and reply that B747-8 could a great replacement for A380 and B777/A350 alternative.

Thanks all.


Um, what?
I'm a devoted 747 lover.
But if you hold your breath for this one, your cheeks will be as blue as the A.net homepage before you get such a pipe dream "technical assessment."

Facts cannot be fabricated. They either are, or are not.
And in your case, they are not.
 
B777LRF
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Re: Qantas and B747-8

Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:05 pm

QF, along with BA, stacked the 747-8 up against the A380, and the 747 fell short. That's following an extensive review, including technical, operational and economical parameters, and neither BA nor QF were too shy to share the result of those reviews. The real mystery is why LH, KE and CA bought any.
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Bnetraveller
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Re: Qantas and B747-8

Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:00 am

Newbiepilot wrote:
Bnetraveller wrote:

I would like to hear from the wider airliner.net community why a B747-8 could work for QANTAS. I don't hear about the whole B777/B787/A350 has two less engines (than a B747), less fuel, less weight agrument that has been discussed at length previously (and is very simple argument) but a genuine technical assessment and reply that B747-8 could a great replacement for A380 and B777/A350 alternative.


Telling people what to say usually is not a good way to start a thread..


How is my curious question telling someone what to say...? Good to see the negativity is alive and well. I accept that a "technical assessment" is a bad choice words but no one has provided a positive comment
.
In news articles, QANTAS have stated the holy gail of flying just about anywhere in the world with 300-400 pax. LH, KA & CA have found a viable fit within their aircraft fleets and routes for the 747-8. LH are flying 748 on their longest routes with a capacity of about 362 passengers. KA has a similar overall fleet type with B737's, A330's, A380's, B747 & B787 to QANTAS. Again, KA has also found a fit within there business model.

Now to play in the world of theory, QANTAS could fly the "polar routes" to reach the desired routes (hence the query about ETOPS rated jets). (I just can't wait from someone to give a negative....sarcasm... :roll: ) QANTAS do fly (occasionally) over the south pole of a tourist flight so the possibility on reaching say, MEL to JFK via the polar route. Technical enhancements applied from 789 (if not already) and playing with idea of replacing the engines with geared turbofans (GTF) to reduce fuel comsumption could give the 748 a fighting chance.
 
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RyanairGuru
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Re: Qantas and B747-8

Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:26 am

Hate to be ‘that guy’, but it’s Qantas not QANTAS. Despite starting life as an acronym it has been a stand-alone word (that means nothing) since becoming Qantas Empire Airways in the 1930s. Other than their logo you will never find the word capitalised apart from the Q. Capitalising their logo, while appearing to accentuate its history as an acronym, is really not unique; see UNITED, DELTA and AIRFRANCE (capitals and no space!)

Back on topic, Qantas in 2018 is very different to Qantas previously. In the past Qantas’ fleet focussed around being a mass people hauler on SYD-LHR and SYD-LAX, and they did not really focus on any market outside of those trunk routes. For that the A380 is the perfect aircraft. These days though Qantas is focussing more on smaller markets such as adding frequencies from PER and BNE, plus a desire for UULH (?) from SYD. For that sort of network size is no longer relevant. The 789 and 77X will slowly become the largest aircraft in their fleet.

What is often forgotten is that Australia, with a population of 24 million, is a tiny market from a global perspective. Just because Qantas have previously operated the biggest of whatever is going doesn’t mean that it is a smart strategy.
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Andy33
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Re: Qantas and B747-8

Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:39 am

The thing is, it doesn't matter what arguments for or against the 748i we make on a-net. The plane is effectively out of production once current orders, such as they are, are delivered or cancelled. It is a bit like the passenger 763, it exists in theory, but unless you want about 50 or more, it isn't worth Boeing's while to make them because many of the passenger-version-specific components are out of production at their suppliers and there will be a significant price to reinstate the lines. Now if you want 748F or 763F versions, that's different, they've been in continuous, if slow, production and parts are still being manufactured for stock and against specific plane orders.
There's no way Qantas need 50 VLA-size planes of a type they don't already have within the next few years at all, when they already have A380s in the fleet and theoretically have more to come, and 779s could start delivery from about 2023 onwards if the 787 family (or for that matter the A350 family) can't meet their requirements. QF is a bit like the US3 in that respect - several hubs far enough apart to make operating separate flights to final destination from each hub worthwhile, rather than forcing passengers to make a domestic flight to a single hub first. It makes sense for them to use 789/A330 size planes rather than VLAs on most international routes just as it does for the US3.

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