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Why Austrian won't fly to MAD?

Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:50 am
by Embajador3
Other than the occasional summer charter into MAD. Austrian does not operate into one of Europe's busiest airport. Instead, IB and EW are left to operate the route themselves. So why Austrian won't expand in the Spanish market?

Re: Why Austrian won't fly to MAD?

Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:11 am
by T1a
Because after market research it was concluded that this route would be better served with EW than OS within the LH-Group. It probably is more of a leisure heavy route that doesn't promise the requiered returns for a legacy carrier. If serving MAD would make them more money then they do right now with their current destinations, they would do so.
On top of that OS is experiencing a pilot shortage. While not as bad as 2 years ago, they may not be able to run the schedule they'd actually like to.

T1a

Re: Why Austrian won't fly to MAD?

Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:28 am
by LupineChemist
Not everywhere in Spain is pure leisure market. Madrid is quite a business oriented city.

Re: Why Austrian won't fly to MAD?

Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:37 am
by Blerg
Even back in the day when Spanair was around they used to operate MAD-VIE. Austrian Airlines has a strong eastern European network, they could make it work.

Re: Why Austrian won't fly to MAD?

Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:44 am
by SCQ83
NIKI also used to fly MAD-VIE. I flew them in 2014.

Indeed it seems like a gap.

Re: Why Austrian won't fly to MAD?

Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:48 am
by vinniewinnie
OS also does a weird codeshare with AF on the Paris to Vienna route! I found this pretty surprising! You would think that like for Madrid they would fly this route themselves!

Re: Why Austrian won't fly to MAD?

Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:50 am
by Embajador3
T1a wrote:
Because after market research it was concluded that this route would be better served with EW than OS within the LH-Group. It probably is more of a leisure heavy route that doesn't promise the requiered returns for a legacy carrier. If serving MAD would make them more money then they do right now with their current destinations, they would do so.
On top of that OS is experiencing a pilot shortage. While not as bad as 2 years ago, they may not be able to run the schedule they'd actually like to.

T1a


MAD is quite strong with business traffic. IB operates 3 daily flights. EW operates 1 daily flight (6 times per week). So, the traffic IS there. Why OS never came to MAD, may be related to pilot shortage, but not due to lack of traffic.

Re: Why Austrian won't fly to MAD?

Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:16 am
by mxaxai
Embajador3 wrote:
T1a wrote:
Because after market research it was concluded that this route would be better served with EW than OS within the LH-Group. It probably is more of a leisure heavy route that doesn't promise the requiered returns for a legacy carrier. If serving MAD would make them more money then they do right now with their current destinations, they would do so.
On top of that OS is experiencing a pilot shortage. While not as bad as 2 years ago, they may not be able to run the schedule they'd actually like to.

T1a


MAD is quite strong with business traffic. IB operates 3 daily flights. EW operates 1 daily flight (6 times per week). So, the traffic IS there. Why OS never came to MAD, may be related to pilot shortage, but not due to lack of traffic.

Maybe IB has captured a fair portion of the business traffic and EW is covering the leisure part, leaving no space for another legacy? IB also has the advantage of a large hub towards latin america while OS' hub in Vienna is probably not the first choice for traffic from Madrid.

Re: Why Austrian won't fly to MAD?

Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:37 am
by SQ789
Not even in BCN either. I remember that they used to fly there long time ago and sadly now no more.

Re: Why Austrian won't fly to MAD?

Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:30 pm
by 777klm
Embajador3 wrote:
T1a wrote:
Because after market research it was concluded that this route would be better served with EW than OS within the LH-Group. It probably is more of a leisure heavy route that doesn't promise the requiered returns for a legacy carrier. If serving MAD would make them more money then they do right now with their current destinations, they would do so.
On top of that OS is experiencing a pilot shortage. While not as bad as 2 years ago, they may not be able to run the schedule they'd actually like to.

T1a


MAD is quite strong with business traffic. IB operates 3 daily flights. EW operates 1 daily flight (6 times per week). So, the traffic IS there. Why OS never came to MAD, may be related to pilot shortage, but not due to lack of traffic.


I think you miss the point T1A is making. The traffic is there indeed, but the LHGroup decided that that traffic is better served with the EW product. One of the many advantages of an airline group with different products is that one can choose the right product for a route. OS ISoffering VIE-MAD on EW metal.
If the LHGroup could make more money by offering a more premium product (OS) they would...

Re: Why Austrian won't fly to MAD?

Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:34 pm
by Embajador3
SQ789 wrote:
Not even in BCN either. I remember that they used to fly there long time ago and sadly now no more.


Exactly! Hence my surprise as to why they left the Spanish and Portguese market to other airlines.

Re: Why Austrian won't fly to MAD?

Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:38 pm
by Embajador3
777klm wrote:
Embajador3 wrote:
T1a wrote:
Because after market research it was concluded that this route would be better served with EW than OS within the LH-Group. It probably is more of a leisure heavy route that doesn't promise the requiered returns for a legacy carrier. If serving MAD would make them more money then they do right now with their current destinations, they would do so.
On top of that OS is experiencing a pilot shortage. While not as bad as 2 years ago, they may not be able to run the schedule they'd actually like to.

T1a


MAD is quite strong with business traffic. IB operates 3 daily flights. EW operates 1 daily flight (6 times per week). So, the traffic IS there. Why OS never came to MAD, may be related to pilot shortage, but not due to lack of traffic.


I think you miss the point T1A is making. The traffic is there indeed, but the LHGroup decided that that traffic is better served with the EW product. One of the many advantages of an airline group with different products is that one can choose the right product for a route. OS ISoffering VIE-MAD on EW metal.
If the LHGroup could make more money by offering a more premium product (OS) they would...


To the contrary. OS and the LH group, left the premium market to IB and its thrice daily service to VIE, offering good connections, and even the opportunity to return to MAD on the same day. As for EW, their 14:10 departure from MAD is not ideal for connections, but may appeal the VFR crowd if the price is right. Just my 2 cents!

Re: Why Austrian won't fly to MAD?

Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:14 pm
by GalaxyFlyer
They’ve never gotten over the Habsburg thing.

GF

Re: Why Austrian won't fly to MAD?

Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:59 pm
by spinotter
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
They’ve never gotten over the Habsburg thing.

GF


Listen, if KLM can get over the Hapsburg thing, and Brussels Airlines serves Madrid after the rape of Antwerp, I see no reason why Austrian cannot do the same - after all, Spain and Austria were on the same side.

Re: Why Austrian won't fly to MAD?

Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:49 pm
by T1a
I think you miss the point T1A is making. The traffic is there indeed, but the LHGroup decided that that traffic is better served with the EW product. One of the many advantages of an airline group with different products is that one can choose the right product for a route. OS is offering VIE-MAD on EW metal.
If the LHGroup could make more money by offering a more premium product (OS) they would...


Not even in BCN either. I remember that they used to fly there long time ago and sadly now no more.


To the contrary. OS and the LH group, left the premium market to IB and its thrice daily service to VIE, offering good connections, and even the opportunity to return to MAD on the same day. As for EW, their 14:10 departure from MAD is not ideal for connections, but may appeal the VFR crowd if the price is right. Just my 2 cents!


A little history lesson of the not so distant past of OS. I honestly don't know the details on MAD, but I know them on the BCN route. In 2012 OS was only days away from filing bankruptcy, the immediate fix was to merge OS operations with its own regional branch VO. On paper all operations were conducted by Tyrolean Airways and crew were forced into the much lower VO CBA. But this alone was not enough. Also a lot of loss-making routes were cut, also high profile ones, like IST or BCN. BCN was actually the most loss-making route in all of OS. And this was at a time, where there was no internal competition by EW, because they didn't exist as a large scale LCC operator at that time. So, one could say - that for whatever the reasons may be - OS has not been doing great on the Austria - Spain market.
This btw is also the time in which the pilot shortage has its roots. After the major scale-back of operations past the OS/VO merger many so called "golden hand-shakes" were given out and crew that were not satisfied with the new CBA could leave. Many did and joined companies like AeroLogic, Cargolux or easyJet. When they wanted to grow again, they were severely short of crews. To this day OS has problems recruiting enough pilots, because they require the same high standard of crews as LH does (DLR-Test in Hamburg), while paying less than LCCs like easyJet or EW (Eurowings Deutschland GmbH in DUS, Eurowings Europe based in VIE doesn't have a CBA, but individual contracts at this time). They signed a new CBA in 2014 that allowed them to use OS as the operator again, but the de-facto pay and benefits is very much oriented at the old VO contract.

Where I completely agree with you, is the odd timing of the route operated by EW. I guess (without checking) that the route also has an OS codeshare flight number, so you could easily connect to the OS network. While arriving in VIE at around 16:00 in fine for the evening departures to the far-east (PEK,HKG,BKK,PVG) it misses many of the only once daily flights to Eastern-Europe, such as IAS or SBZ. At some of those airports OS is the only "western" operator, so I don't understand why you would want to miss out on that. For me two flights a day, one arriving at around 10:00, the other at around 18:00 would make more sense to me. But obviously management decided that this market was not worth pursuing, what-ever their reasons may be...

Greets,
T1a

Re: Why Austrian won't fly to MAD?

Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:07 am
by Cunard
Embajador3 wrote:
T1a wrote:
Because after market research it was concluded that this route would be better served with EW than OS within the LH-Group. It probably is more of a leisure heavy route that doesn't promise the requiered returns for a legacy carrier. If serving MAD would make them more money then they do right now with their current destinations, they would do so.
On top of that OS is experiencing a pilot shortage. While not as bad as 2 years ago, they may not be able to run the schedule they'd actually like to.

T1a


MAD is quite strong with business traffic. IB operates 3 daily flights. EW operates 1 daily flight (6 times per week). So, the traffic IS there. Why OS never came to MAD, may be related to pilot shortage, but not due to lack of traffic.


It can't honestly be related to a pilot shortage as that's more of a recent occurrence where as Austrian Airlines ceased operating VIE to MAD several years ago and if they felt that the route warranted restarting I'm sure that they would have done by now but instead it's handled by EW.

I personally find it strange that Austrian aren't flying the route themselves considering Madrid is the capital of Spain and fast becoming a major financial centre even more so since the recent turmoil in Catalyuna and in particular Barcelona with businesses relocating to the capital.

Re: Why Austrian won't fly to MAD?

Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:04 am
by stylo777
Well, they also dont serve FCO; another bigger and famous city in Europe (cs with EW only). But as mentioned above, you have to look at such decision from LHGroup point of view. They still cover VIE-MAD direct on LCC level as well as via ZRH, FRA, MUC and even GVA. Maybe even via BRU...

Re: Why Austrian won't fly to MAD?

Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:00 am
by Blerg
stylo777 wrote:
Well, they also dont serve FCO; another bigger and famous city in Europe (cs with EW only). But as mentioned above, you have to look at such decision from LHGroup point of view. They still cover VIE-MAD direct on LCC level as well as via ZRH, FRA, MUC and even GVA. Maybe even via BRU...


What's even more strange is that the code-share on Eurowings tends to be much more expensive than connecting in Frankfurt. Alitalia doesn't serve Vienna either. With Wizz Air launching daily flights to Rome I don't see either one of these two airlines (AZ, OS) establishing flights with their own metal.

Re: Why Austrian won't fly to MAD?

Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:36 pm
by traveller12
About Madrid: Why should Austrian fly to MAD? It is no Star Alliance hub (so no connections on Spanish domestic flights or flights to Latin America) and Spain has hardly relations to the east. OS is also looking on the average duration of a flight in Europe. Every new destination up to 2h/2.5h is being seen at too expensive to operate. If NIKI would still operate and serving its city-shuttle destinations Madrid would be still served by NIKI and not EWE. EWE just took over some routes from NIKI when they withdrew from certain city destinations like NCE, FCO, MAD, BCN, etc last March. Luckily EWE got the OS-Codeshare.

To BCN: As I can remember OS served BCN twice daily: 1 morning flight (10:25-13:00/14:00-16:10) and the evening flight (20:..-22:..) and leaving early in the morning (6:40-09:10) until 2011/2012. For the winter they kept this morning flight, in the summer OS391/OS392 (07:00-09:15/10:00-12:15) and OS393/OS394 (17:15-19:40/20:25-22:50). They passed the afternoon flight on to Eurowings in summer 2016 and last February they finished operations to BCN. EW took over the morning flight too and leaves now at 06:20.

Same story with FCO. Last OS flight 2017. When NIKI published its new strategy focusing on leisure destinations and withdraw from their cityshuttle-network, OS was suprised, as they just ceased ops to FCO and BCN and switched it to EWE and a big competitor annouced to withdraw from this routes. Good business for Eurowings.

Re: Why Austrian won't fly to MAD?

Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:19 pm
by airlinermiami
The same with SAS -Scandinavian...left MAD a also ..even though MAD currently has service with many Scandinavian cities...SAS is missed.
The same with Singapore Airlines and JAL
MAD is a very attractive airport for airlines to fly to.
Will SAS , JAL and Singapore Airlines return to MAD...?

Re: Why Austrian won't fly to MAD?

Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:35 pm
by LupineChemist
airlinermiami wrote:
The same with SAS -Scandinavian...left MAD a also ..even though MAD currently has service with many Scandinavian cities...SAS is missed.
The same with Singapore Airlines and JAL
MAD is a very attractive airport for airlines to fly to.
Will SAS , JAL and Singapore Airlines return to MAD...?


IB is a member of the Europe Japan JV with BA, Finnair, and JAL so I think JAL will just let IB keep on upping frequencies unless they want to add another flight to HND.

SQ could maaaybe work, but there's definitely a very strong OW preference because of the IB hub and EK/QR already take care of a lot of the business traffic to SE Asia at pretty good fares. EK has double daily 380 to fill, after all.

SAS....Yeah, that one seems obvious to me, too.

Re: Why Austrian won't fly to MAD?

Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:32 pm
by Kadish
LupineChemist wrote:
airlinermiami wrote:
The same with SAS -Scandinavian...left MAD a also ..even though MAD currently has service with many Scandinavian cities...SAS is missed.
The same with Singapore Airlines and JAL
MAD is a very attractive airport for airlines to fly to.
Will SAS , JAL and Singapore Airlines return to MAD...?


IB is a member of the Europe Japan JV with BA, Finnair, and JAL so I think JAL will just let IB keep on upping frequencies unless they want to add another flight to HND.

SQ could maaaybe work, but there's definitely a very strong OW preference because of the IB hub and EK/QR already take care of a lot of the business traffic to SE Asia at pretty good fares. EK has double daily 380 to fill, after all.

SAS....Yeah, that one seems obvious to me, too.


PAL?

Re: Why Austrian won't fly to MAD?

Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:43 pm
by LupineChemist
Kadish wrote:
PAL?


Same sort of issue as SQ. Lots of VFR traffic but very low yielding and ME3 (less so EY in MAD, but still) have that pretty tied up.

I could actually see a nonstop to WNZ on a Chinese carrier (That's Wenzhou, China) as the majority of Chinese in Spain come from near there and tend to actually be a fair amount more affluent.

Re: Why Austrian won't fly to MAD?

Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:26 pm
by jmmadrid
airlinermiami wrote:
The same with SAS -Scandinavian...left MAD a also ..even though MAD currently has service with many Scandinavian cities...SAS is missed.


This is an easy one, the word you are looking for is Norwegian.

SAS tried to coexist with them but could not compete and axed all flights I believe a year or so after Norwegian entered the market.

Re: Why Austrian won't fly to MAD?

Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:47 pm
by eisenbach
vinniewinnie wrote:
OS also does a weird codeshare with AF on the Paris to Vienna route! I found this pretty surprising! You would think that like for Madrid they would fly this route themselves!


About the AirFrance - Austrian Codesharing on the route CDG-VIE - this is a bit of a historical (and complicated) bilateral agreement between France and Austria.

About MAD (and BCN), I think OS just didn't get the usual revenues they are used to get on flights to secondary Eastern European cities, as they have had much more competition to Spain.

Re: Why Austrian won't fly to MAD?

Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:56 pm
by vadheim
Scandinavians prefer coastal Spain not MAD so much!

SAS is serving Barcelona, Alicante, Malaga, Palma and Las Palmas big style from many Scandinavian cities.

Re: Why Austrian won't fly to MAD?

Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:36 pm
by HELyes
vadheim wrote:
Scandinavians prefer coastal Spain not MAD so much!

SAS is serving Barcelona, Alicante, Malaga, Palma and Las Palmas big style from many Scandinavian cities.


Looks like Finnair is more active in Spain: Madrid, Barcelona, Alicante, Malaga, Ibiza, Palma, Menorca, Las Palmas, Lanzarote, Fuerteventura, Tenerife South.

Their business model is a bit different from SAS hough, AY over all is more leisure orientated.

Re: Why Austrian won't fly to MAD?

Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:57 pm
by airlinermiami
Finnair and Iberia are a OW members....and they both get a fair share of connecting passengers through their respective hubs.
Finnair is one good option for Spain-Asia travelers...Finnair has a fairly acceptable Asia network.
Besides of many Finish traveling to Spain for holidays too.

Re: Why Austrian won't fly to MAD?

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:19 am
by Cunard
vadheim wrote:
Scandinavians prefer coastal Spain not MAD so much!

SAS is serving Barcelona, Alicante, Malaga, Palma and Las Palmas big style from many Scandinavian cities.


But Madrid would be more business oriented unlike the tourist hotspots you have mentioned!

Obviously Scandinavians seek the sun and therefore the coastal resorts will always be more popular but a link to a major European capital such as Madrid is what we're discussing.

Re: Why Austrian won't fly to MAD?

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:57 am
by HELyes
Finnair is one good option for Spain-Asia travelers...Finnair has a fairly acceptable Asia network.
Besides of many Finish traveling to Spain for holidays too.


Yes Finnair's MAD (especially) and BCN services are built to feed their Asia network, the other Spanish routes mainly serve Finnish holiday-makers, the Finnair group includes a large tour operator.