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fraspotter
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Re: What's Next for Denver (2018 version)

Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:42 am

A Japanese carrier to compete with UA would be nice. Looking for a ticket for my sister to NRT in March and the UA direct flight is a good $6-700 more than what Air Canada is offering via YVR.
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khinstorff
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Re: What's Next for Denver (2018 version)

Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:47 am

N649DL wrote:
trexel94 wrote:
I've read from a Denver newspaper that DEN was trying to get CPH presumably through SAS or DY. Also ICN was high on the list too along with BOG. What are the odds of DEN getting these routes?


If I had to guess SAS would try to operate ARN-DEN instead. They operate ARN-LAX right now plus there is an unusually high amount of Swedish Americans in Colorado (2.6% ancestry statewide).

"DL used to have a Crown Room in Denver and had they stayed on C I think they could have got that space back. At the same time, even on A the club in in the center and none of the DL gates have access to customs directly. Neither of which are a big deal but at the same time having the SkyClub on the same concourse as the INTL gates would be beneficial. Unless they had done arrive at A and tow to C."

DL moved to the A concourse shortly after I moved to DEN in 2016. That was the same year they launched LAX-DEN which is now operated by mainline aircraft. I believe the club is a former part of the CO President's Club (split between the Admirals Club and USO Lounge.) Great club with lots of space but it's beyond annoying there are no bathrooms in the club and are shared with the other lounges and to the public. They get noisy and dirty very quickly.


I agree, I see no reason to build the E/W terminals instead of D or E. Would they ever build a North terminal to take some of the pressure off the South terminal? Is that even possible?
 
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intotheair
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Re: What's Next for Denver (2018 version)

Thu Sep 27, 2018 3:43 am

Fargo wrote:
Plus, how many gates does DEN ultimately need? After the current expansions, they will have roughly 176 (if I am doing my math correctly) and there will still be room to expand A and C a little bit to the east and west respectively. They could have roughly 200 when A, B and C are fully built out, almost as much as ATL does today.


DEN has grown a lot faster than the original projections. The airport was initially designed for 50 million passengers. DEN processed 61 million last year, and new projections show 80 million passengers before 2025. Both UA and WN have pretty aggressive expansion plans, and more service is coming from other carriers too. UA is so maxed out on gate space that it's using common use gates in A for domestic departures during several banks now. Everyone's pretty much in agreement that DEN could use more gate space.

IMO, building out A, B and C, then constructing part of D and expanding it when necessary would give the airport adequate gate capacity for the next several decades, no need for the East/West Concourses. And the train will need to be upgraded/expanded regardless, so why not bite the bullet and do it now?


With the current A/B/C expansion, the concourses will be pretty much maxed out. B will be, and A and C will only be able to add about 10-12 more gates beyond that before reaching their maximum length.

The train upgrades also aren't that simple. Have you been on the train recently? They're all packed, and there's no way they would be able to handle another concourse's load of passengers.

Also remember this: the original airport design with five concourses called for two train loops. Trains were supposed to go up the spine of the airport in the middle of each concourse (like they do now) before circling back and stopping at stations on the ends of each concourse. The outer stations and tunnels were never built because of cost, and the existing system up the airport's spine was only ever meant for three concourses.

Building D and E would mean extending the central train spine, relocating the train maintenance facility, building those peripheral stations on the concourse ends, and tunneling under an active apron. It could still happen, but I'm sure that won't be cheap.

There are still some minor improvements they can make to the trains (shorter headways, six car trains), but that's still only enough to accommodate the fully-expanded A, B, and C.

I can see how and why they prefer the East/West concourse idea because it avoids a lot of that expense, and it will mean that DEN will have three concourses adjacent to the terminal instead of only one.
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caverunner17
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Re: What's Next for Denver (2018 version)

Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:37 pm

intotheair wrote:

Building D and E would mean extending the central train spine, relocating the train maintenance facility, building those peripheral stations on the concourse ends, and tunneling under an active apron. It could still happen, but I'm sure that won't be cheap.

There are still some minor improvements they can make to the trains (shorter headways, six car trains), but that's still only enough to accommodate the fully-expanded A, B, and C.

I can see how and why they prefer the East/West concourse idea because it avoids a lot of that expense, and it will mean that DEN will have three concourses adjacent to the terminal instead of only one.

The biggest issue I see with the E/W concourse is check in counter space along with traffic flow for cars/buses. I already feel that there isn't enough room for drop offs/pickups and if you go during busy times, there can be long lines to get through passenger pickup. Building out the EW terminals would make this even more compact.

Another issue is that an E/W terminal would be pretty unusable by UA/WN as it would make connections significantly harder and longer. I could easily see 30+ minute connection times physically walking from the end of say B50 to West50 or something vs the maybe 10 minutes currently. Even going from A to C (done it before) isn't bad in the current layout.
 
jplatts
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Re: What's Next for Denver (2018 version)

Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:05 pm

intotheair wrote:
The train upgrades also aren't that simple. Have you been on the train recently? They're all packed, and there's no way they would be able to handle another concourse's load of passengers.

Also remember this: the original airport design with five concourses called for two train loops. Trains were supposed to go up the spine of the airport in the middle of each concourse (like they do now) before circling back and stopping at stations on the ends of each concourse. The outer stations and tunnels were never built because of cost, and the existing system up the airport's spine was only ever meant for three concourses.

Building D and E would mean extending the central train spine, relocating the train maintenance facility, building those peripheral stations on the concourse ends, and tunneling under an active apron. It could still happen, but I'm sure that won't be cheap.

There are still some minor improvements they can make to the trains (shorter headways, six car trains), but that's still only enough to accommodate the fully-expanded A, B, and C.


In addition to constructing extra train tunnels, an underground walkway connecting concourses A, B, and C at DEN should be constructed. An underground walkway connecting concourses A, B, and C at DEN would make it easier for departing passengers to more easily get to their gate and for arriving passengers to exit the secure area of the airport in the event of a train system malfunction at DEN. Unlike at DEN, CVG and ATL both have underground walkways connecting their terminals and concourses in addition to underground trains.
 
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intotheair
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Re: What's Next for Denver (2018 version)

Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:37 am

caverunner17 wrote:
The biggest issue I see with the E/W concourse is check in counter space along with traffic flow for cars/buses. I already feel that there isn't enough room for drop offs/pickups and if you go during busy times, there can be long lines to get through passenger pickup. Building out the EW terminals would make this even more compact.

Another issue is that an E/W terminal would be pretty unusable by UA/WN as it would make connections significantly harder and longer. I could easily see 30+ minute connection times physically walking from the end of say B50 to West50 or something vs the maybe 10 minutes currently. Even going from A to C (done it before) isn't bad in the current layout.


The master plan shows that DEN is still planning to build an extension of the terminal to the south, which was always part of the original design. The current terminal was only meant to handle 50 million passengers. They're promising the remodel will bump the capacity up to 80 million.

I thought the terminal expansion to the south wasn't possible anymore with the hotel and train station built there I took another look at the plan though, and it still shows the new terminal space being built south of the hotel. That means the hotel and train station will someday be at the middle of a larger terminal complex. It should be interesting to see how that design eventually pans out.

And connections only matter based on where all the airlines end up. The way I see it, UA and WN are the only ones who will have operations so large that they'll need to use two concourses. Pairing that up with A-B and East-West with the cats and dogs in C would probably still make it easy for people to connect even if they're going to another concourse.
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Beechtobus
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Re: What's Next for Denver (2018 version)

Fri Sep 28, 2018 5:18 pm

I guess I’m not really sure why ATL can move 110 mil or so passengers a year between 7 concourses on its non-looped, one track in each direction people mover, but Denver can’t move 70-80 million on its similar setup. Granted, I know ATL currently gives the option to walk and 2 of the concourses are connected to terminals. Do that many people walk that it relives the train that considerably? I never feel like I see that many people walking in ATL. Plus in Denver, you do have the option to walk to A which handles quite a bit of traffic (potentially, roughly 1/3rd of DIAs traffic).

That said, I could see an East and West concourse working in Denver, and if it mitigates the high cost required to greatly expand DIAs train system, why not? I think United taking over a fully built out A and B with International flights and Star Alliance partners on A. Southwest Could take over a fully built out C. Frontier, American, and One world on The East concourse and Delta, Skyteam, and the rest of the non-hub airlines on the West concourse.

The new master plan definitely calls for a new terminal. Essentially, it would be just south of the Westin (over the A-line platforms) in and east/west alingnment. The road access would break off before the split for the present east and west terminals, go along the south side of the new terminal and rejoin just past where the current east/west terminal roadways meet back up (think SFOs international terminal and its roadway setup). I’m not sure if there would be an indoor, direct connection to the present terminal. Also, I’m unsure if the connections from the new terminal to the new east and west concourses would be above or below ground. I’m guessing below ground to improve aircraft traffic flow around the concourses.

It’s sad that DIAs original symmetry and flow through, linear design is being sacrificed to save some money. I remember a big selling point of DIA was the continuity of the east-west alignment of the concourses and how well that worked with the north-south alignment of most of the runways and terminals. That said, construction is not cheap and if lower operating costs means more airlines with more flights, then I’m all for it.
 
jplatts
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Re: What's Next for Denver (2018 version)

Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:32 pm

WN has its next schedule extension on November 15th, which would extend the WN flight schedule to August 5, 2019. While WN already serves most of its domestic destinations nonstop from DEN, WN could add DEN-CLT, DEN-DSM, and DEN-ICT nonstop service. In addition, WN could also bring back DEN-BUF and DEN-PVD nonstop service.

I think that WN might announce new nonstop routes out of DEN in its November 15th schedule extension since WN has recently been expanding at DEN. What new nonstop routes out of DEN is WN likely to announce in its November 15th schedule extension?
 
Tenaja85
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Re: What's Next for Denver (2018 version)

Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:41 pm

Here's an interesting article: How Denver International Airport lands international flights — and which destinations might be next:

https://coloradosun.com/2018/11/14/denv ... _wyp8oRFl0
 
BA
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Re: What's Next for Denver (2018 version)

Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:52 am

Edelweiss is coming back next year which is a good sign.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: What's Next for Denver (2018 version)

Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:54 am

Tenaja85 wrote:
Here's an interesting article: How Denver International Airport lands international flights — and which destinations might be next:

https://coloradosun.com/2018/11/14/denv ... _wyp8oRFl0

I like how they listed specifically Air China and TK. Would Daxing allow more flights between US and Beijing or would the US/China bilateral prevent that?

Aer Lingus here in DEN would be a wet dream for me, and it's interesting to see who will fly DEN-AMS first, my money would be on UA, then KL, but DL has been pretty aggressive in the secondary US-Europe markets lately, but I wonder if the 763 would perform well given the hot and high nature of DEN.

And NZ has explored DEN before, id expect an announcement in 2019.
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Tenaja85
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Re: What's Next for Denver (2018 version)

Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:15 pm

I also noted that the CDG flight is up to 3x weekly beginning in April-- MWF
 
Tenaja85
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Re: What's Next for Denver (2018 version)

Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:17 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
Tenaja85 wrote:
Here's an interesting article: How Denver International Airport lands international flights — and which destinations might be next:

https://coloradosun.com/2018/11/14/denv ... _wyp8oRFl0

I like how they listed specifically Air China and TK. Would Daxing allow more flights between US and Beijing or would the US/China bilateral prevent that?

Aer Lingus here in DEN would be a wet dream for me, and it's interesting to see who will fly DEN-AMS first, my money would be on UA, then KL, but DL has been pretty aggressive in the secondary US-Europe markets lately, but I wonder if the 763 would perform well given the hot and high nature of DEN.

And NZ has explored DEN before, id expect an announcement in 2019.


It's great to see an article with DEN employees actually cited. I would love to see Beijing and NZ come in to really diversify DEN's international network. I could see KL trying AMS with the connectivity that it can offer in AMS.
 
Fargo
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Re: What's Next for Denver (2018 version)

Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:49 pm

I wonder how big UA will get at DEN? Could we see 600+ flights at some point?

Also, how big will WN get?
 
jplatts
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Re: What's Next for Denver (2018 version)

Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:21 pm

Fargo wrote:
Also, how big will WN get?


WN will be operating 224 daily departures out of DEN in Summer 2019, and WN could get up to at least 238 daily departures out of DEN in Summer 2020 by making the following adds at DEN:
  • Adding DEN-CLT, DEN-DSM, DEN-MAF, and DEN-ICT nonstop service
  • Increasing DEN-CVG, DEN-FLL, DEN-SDF, and DEN-MEM nonstop service to 2 daily nonstops from 1 daily nonstop
  • Bringing back DEN-PVD nonstop service
  • Bringing back daily nonstop service to CHS from DEN
  • Extending DEN-ORF nonstop service to daily nonstop service from weekend-only seasonal nonstop service
 
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intotheair
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Re: What's Next for Denver (2018 version)

Wed Nov 28, 2018 3:58 am

Fargo wrote:
I wonder how big UA will get at DEN? Could we see 600+ flights at some point?

Also, how big will WN get?


Isn't UA already planning on 600 departures from DEN either next summer or the following summer? I thought Kirby said that at a presentation sometime fairly recently.
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Fargo
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Re: What's Next for Denver (2018 version)

Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:28 pm

intotheair wrote:
Fargo wrote:
I wonder how big UA will get at DEN? Could we see 600+ flights at some point?

Also, how big will WN get?


Isn't UA already planning on 600 departures from DEN either next summer or the following summer? I thought Kirby said that at a presentation sometime fairly recently.


I hope so. IMO, DEN should be UA's second largest hub.
 
nomorerjs
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Re: What's Next for Denver (2018 version)

Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:58 am

2nd largest behind IAH or ORD (people here debate this). Given the current state of oil prices, IAH could suffer a short-term funk.
 
rph99
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Re: What's Next for Denver (2018 version)

Thu Nov 29, 2018 4:48 am

Would love to see UA hit 600+

Another Asian city has to be coming. There is no way UAs sole Tokyo flight is meeting the demand of DEN to The East.

As for SW. They are my least favorite airline and I still sometimes get bitter about their arrival in Denver in 2006. Just. Let. Me. Pick. My. Seat.

Perhaps more Caribbean. Maybe a direct to SJU? Cayman Air starts service in what...2 weeks?

Either way, nothing but growth coming for Denver! Can’t wait to see what we get. I love catching that LH A350 landing on 35L.
 
fry530
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Re: What's Next for Denver (2018 version)

Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:02 am

rph99 wrote:
Would love to see UA hit 600+

Another Asian city has to be coming. There is no way UAs sole Tokyo flight is meeting the demand of DEN to The East.

As for SW. They are my least favorite airline and I still sometimes get bitter about their arrival in Denver in 2006. Just. Let. Me. Pick. My. Seat.

Perhaps more Caribbean. Maybe a direct to SJU? Cayman Air starts service in what...2 weeks?

Either way, nothing but growth coming for Denver! Can’t wait to see what we get. I love catching that LH A350 landing on 35L.


Cayman Airways begins DEN in March.

Being a Denverite I would like to be optimistic, but I do have to wonder how much new international service we will actually get. There have been so many rumors about EK, TK, EI, etc. that have amounted to nothing so far which is a little frustrating. Even United has yet to announce another Euro destination which has been rumored for a couple of months now.

I would like to think that we will see the likes of Air China, Emirates, or KLM here, but I have become less optimistic. EI even announced MSP, but we have nothing yet from them. I would think UA is finalizing the summer schedule for 2019, so where is the new rumored route? We may have done well in the past few years with getting more service, but it seems to have slowed down.
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joeblow10
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Re: What's Next for Denver (2018 version)

Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:27 am

fry530 wrote:
rph99 wrote:
Would love to see UA hit 600+

Another Asian city has to be coming. There is no way UAs sole Tokyo flight is meeting the demand of DEN to The East.

As for SW. They are my least favorite airline and I still sometimes get bitter about their arrival in Denver in 2006. Just. Let. Me. Pick. My. Seat.

Perhaps more Caribbean. Maybe a direct to SJU? Cayman Air starts service in what...2 weeks?

Either way, nothing but growth coming for Denver! Can’t wait to see what we get. I love catching that LH A350 landing on 35L.


Cayman Airways begins DEN in March.

Being a Denverite I would like to be optimistic, but I do have to wonder how much new international service we will actually get. There have been so many rumors about EK, TK, EI, etc. that have amounted to nothing so far which is a little frustrating. Even United has yet to announce another Euro destination which has been rumored for a couple of months now.

I would like to think that we will see the likes of Air China, Emirates, or KLM here, but I have become less optimistic. EI even announced MSP, but we have nothing yet from them. I would think UA is finalizing the summer schedule for 2019, so where is the new rumored route? We may have done well in the past few years with getting more service, but it seems to have slowed down.



Personally, also being a Denverite, I think the expansion of destinations is going great. Intentionally is a bit of a mixed bag but I like it overall: we've gotten Norwegian, Cayman, double daily to KEF during the summer, and MUC has returned, UA's LHR even if seasonal is also a major win.

On the domestic side of things though, hands down fantastic - destinations being added left and right, and with F9's large expansions, fares have fallen big time in many markets. Unfortunately with the seasonality markets like ABQ and BOI will remain outrageous in the winter/spring months, but for the most part, the increased competition has been fantastic for the consumer.

I see UA continuing the domestic expansion to match more of F9's unique/smaller markets, and I think that'll continue to drive down fares. Hopefully these past two years are a great sign of things to come.
 
303dk
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Re: What's Next for Denver (2018 version)

Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:18 am

rph99 wrote:
Perhaps more Caribbean. Maybe a direct to SJU? Cayman Air starts service in what...2 weeks?

SJU seems like it could be supported with cruise traffic alone. I believe that 20+ ships are home porting there this winter
 
jhsusman
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Re: What's Next for Denver (2018 version)

Thu Nov 29, 2018 4:42 pm

Sounds like United is going to announce DEN - FRA very soon. . .
 
fry530
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Re: What's Next for Denver (2018 version)

Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:37 pm

joeblow10 wrote:
fry530 wrote:
rph99 wrote:
Would love to see UA hit 600+

Another Asian city has to be coming. There is no way UAs sole Tokyo flight is meeting the demand of DEN to The East.

As for SW. They are my least favorite airline and I still sometimes get bitter about their arrival in Denver in 2006. Just. Let. Me. Pick. My. Seat.

Perhaps more Caribbean. Maybe a direct to SJU? Cayman Air starts service in what...2 weeks?

Either way, nothing but growth coming for Denver! Can’t wait to see what we get. I love catching that LH A350 landing on 35L.


Cayman Airways begins DEN in March.

Being a Denverite I would like to be optimistic, but I do have to wonder how much new international service we will actually get. There have been so many rumors about EK, TK, EI, etc. that have amounted to nothing so far which is a little frustrating. Even United has yet to announce another Euro destination which has been rumored for a couple of months now.

I would like to think that we will see the likes of Air China, Emirates, or KLM here, but I have become less optimistic. EI even announced MSP, but we have nothing yet from them. I would think UA is finalizing the summer schedule for 2019, so where is the new rumored route? We may have done well in the past few years with getting more service, but it seems to have slowed down.



Personally, also being a Denverite, I think the expansion of destinations is going great. Intentionally is a bit of a mixed bag but I like it overall: we've gotten Norwegian, Cayman, double daily to KEF during the summer, and MUC has returned, UA's LHR even if seasonal is also a major win.

On the domestic side of things though, hands down fantastic - destinations being added left and right, and with F9's large expansions, fares have fallen big time in many markets. Unfortunately with the seasonality markets like ABQ and BOI will remain outrageous in the winter/spring months, but for the most part, the increased competition has been fantastic for the consumer.

I see UA continuing the domestic expansion to match more of F9's unique/smaller markets, and I think that'll continue to drive down fares. Hopefully these past two years are a great sign of things to come.


Couldn’t agree more! Although perhaps I need to eat some of my words, as it looks like UA announced DEN-FRA today! Let’s hope there’s more to come!
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Fargo
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Re: What's Next for Denver (2018 version)

Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:48 pm

fry530 wrote:
joeblow10 wrote:
fry530 wrote:

Cayman Airways begins DEN in March.

Being a Denverite I would like to be optimistic, but I do have to wonder how much new international service we will actually get. There have been so many rumors about EK, TK, EI, etc. that have amounted to nothing so far which is a little frustrating. Even United has yet to announce another Euro destination which has been rumored for a couple of months now.

I would like to think that we will see the likes of Air China, Emirates, or KLM here, but I have become less optimistic. EI even announced MSP, but we have nothing yet from them. I would think UA is finalizing the summer schedule for 2019, so where is the new rumored route? We may have done well in the past few years with getting more service, but it seems to have slowed down.



Personally, also being a Denverite, I think the expansion of destinations is going great. Intentionally is a bit of a mixed bag but I like it overall: we've gotten Norwegian, Cayman, double daily to KEF during the summer, and MUC has returned, UA's LHR even if seasonal is also a major win.

On the domestic side of things though, hands down fantastic - destinations being added left and right, and with F9's large expansions, fares have fallen big time in many markets. Unfortunately with the seasonality markets like ABQ and BOI will remain outrageous in the winter/spring months, but for the most part, the increased competition has been fantastic for the consumer.

I see UA continuing the domestic expansion to match more of F9's unique/smaller markets, and I think that'll continue to drive down fares. Hopefully these past two years are a great sign of things to come.


Couldn’t agree more! Although perhaps I need to eat some of my words, as it looks like UA announced DEN-FRA today! Let’s hope there’s more to come!


I’m surprised AF or KL isn’t in DEN yet. Year round service to CDG or AMS should be the top priority. UA probably won’t do it though, considering IAH doesn’t even have CDG. I’m a bit surprised KL chose LAS over DEN for 3x weekly service.

I’d love to see NZ in DEN, but that probably ain’t happening anytime soon.
 
Beechtobus
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Re: What's Next for Denver (2018 version)

Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:39 pm

Say UA does once again make DEN it’s number 2 hub again; Does anyone see UA swapping it’s seasonal LHR slot to another city and making DEN-LHR year round? If so, which city would have a winter frequency sacrificed? SFO and LAX each have one daily so likely one of those wouldn’t be sacrificed. ORD and IAH have 2 dailies. IAD has 3 and EWR has 5. I could see either IAH (if it were to fall to UAs number 3 hub status) or IAD or EWR having one of its frequencies go seasonal to fund Denver’s being year round.

Thoughts?
 
748iDEN
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Re: What's Next for Denver (2018 version)

Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:49 pm

Beechtobus wrote:
Say UA does once again make DEN it’s number 2 hub again; Does anyone see UA swapping it’s seasonal LHR slot to another city and making DEN-LHR year round? If so, which city would have a frequency sacrificed? SFO and LAX each have one daily so likely one of those wouldn’t be sacrificed. ORD and IAH have 2 dailies. IAD has 3 and EWR has 5. I could see either IAH (if it were to fall to UAs number 3 hub status) or IAD or EWR having one of its frequencies go seasonal to fund Denver’s being year round.

Thoughts?


My best guess would be that EWR would see one of its frequencies given to DEN and in exchange EWR would have one of its frequencies upguaged to compensate for the loss of seats. After all, DEN would only get the 788 so if EWR were to upgauage on one of the remaining frequencies to a 77W or something else then it should work.
 
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intotheair
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Re: What's Next for Denver (2018 version)

Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:12 pm

748iDEN wrote:
Beechtobus wrote:
Say UA does once again make DEN it’s number 2 hub again; Does anyone see UA swapping it’s seasonal LHR slot to another city and making DEN-LHR year round? If so, which city would have a frequency sacrificed? SFO and LAX each have one daily so likely one of those wouldn’t be sacrificed. ORD and IAH have 2 dailies. IAD has 3 and EWR has 5. I could see either IAH (if it were to fall to UAs number 3 hub status) or IAD or EWR having one of its frequencies go seasonal to fund Denver’s being year round.

Thoughts?


My best guess would be that EWR would see one of its frequencies given to DEN and in exchange EWR would have one of its frequencies upguaged to compensate for the loss of seats. After all, DEN would only get the 788 so if EWR were to upgauage on one of the remaining frequencies to a 77W or something else then it should work.


UA is never going to reduce a frequency at EWR. Frequency is king on NYC-London.
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