Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
MaRoFu
Topic Author
Posts: 66
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 6:39 pm

Star Alliance's EWR Fortress Hub

Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:56 am

What will be the future of Star Alliance at EWR? There appears to be more non-affilated carriers coming into the airport every year.

I wonder what this might mean for United especially...
Airports I have been to:
DFW, EWR, IAH, JFK, LAS, LGA, MCO, MIA, NRT, ORD, PHL, PHX, SEA, SLC, YTZ, YYZ
 
User avatar
N62NA
Posts: 4476
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2003 1:05 am

Re: Star Alliance's EWR Fortress Hub

Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:00 am

MaRoFu wrote:
What will be the future of Star Alliance at EWR? There appears to be more non-affilated carriers coming into the airport every year.

I wonder what this might mean for United especially...


I predict the future of Star Alliance at EWR will be... many of the Star Alliance airlines will continue to not serve EWR and instead serve JFK.
 
NichCage
Posts: 916
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:43 pm

Re: Star Alliance's EWR Fortress Hub

Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:10 am

There is still a decent amount of Star Alliance airlines serving EWR, and they will not go away. AC, CA, AI, OS, AV, ET, LO, LH, SK, LX, and TP all serve EWR.

However, there are some Star Alliance airlines that serve JFK. OZ and BR are some examples. New York is a very popular destination and they choose to fly to JFK instead of EWR because it's closer to New York itself compared to Newark maybe. Some airlines just choose JFK for reasons, I guess.
 
LH658
Posts: 1210
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:35 am

Re: Star Alliance's EWR Fortress Hub

Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:11 am

Also name New York -JFK is popular it marketing.
 
CHI2DFW
Posts: 223
Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 1:44 am

Re: Star Alliance's EWR Fortress Hub

Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:13 am

LH658 wrote:
Also name New York -JFK is popular it marketing.


JFK vs. EWR with a prison as a neighbor...
 
iadadd
Posts: 302
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2016 10:16 pm

Re: Star Alliance's EWR Fortress Hub

Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:28 am

JFK will always be seen as the primary international airport for NY and that's something Star realizes. Nevertheless there are certain Star carriers (SK, TP, ET, UA) which exclusively serve EWR and therefore still makes it a strong Star hub, I don't any circumstance that could make EWR weaker, it serves a purpose and generally does it well.
 
User avatar
janders
Moderator
Posts: 1121
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:27 pm

Re: Star Alliance's EWR Fortress Hub

Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:31 am

Considering UA does not give the time of day to many of its Star partners, they rather serve JFK and maintain relations with folks like B6 instead.
"We make war that we may live in peace." -- Aristotle
 
User avatar
PolarRoute
Posts: 83
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:56 pm

Re: Star Alliance's EWR Fortress Hub

Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:05 am

Maybe this is slightly going off topic, but what are the reasons for airlines choosing EWR and/or JFK? In other words, what do the airlines consider upon the choice between EWR and JFK and what do they expect from each?
 
ytz
Posts: 3529
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:31 am

Re: Star Alliance's EWR Fortress Hub

Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:45 am

PolarRoute wrote:
Maybe this is slightly going off topic, but what are the reasons for airlines choosing EWR and/or JFK? In other words, what do the airlines consider upon the choice between EWR and JFK and what do they expect from each?


Would assume it comes down to hubbing with UA vs. o/d to New York. AC is peculiar for example. It does not serve JFK. It serves LGA and EWR. With most flights going to EWR. So you're either going to EWR to get on a UA flight, or you're outside the radius for LGA.

I would assume that airlines going to EWR have more transfers to UA. And airlines going to JFK value the O/D traffic more highly.
 
VC10er
Posts: 4268
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:25 am

Re: Star Alliance's EWR Fortress Hub

Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:41 am

FACT: EWR for a vast portion of the NYC Metro Area (Tri-State) is a close and very viable airport. This is not “fake news”. EWR may have a brand image problem to continue to try and solve. But a common sense flier will not go to JFK if EWR is closer or has the right flight at the right price. Only people seduced by the lure of the JFK brand will refuse to fly in/out of EWR (and I realize there are many under JFK’s spell).
Jersey City which is only a handful of minutes away is already the size of a second tier “SIZED” US city. It has so many great, beautiful skyscrapers and luxury condominiums etc it blows my mind when I gaze across the Hudson. Not long ago it Jersey City was the butt of many jokes. No more. It’s culture is vibrant and growing exponentially every year. It’s a very cool place. I have many friends who live there.
That’s on top of EWR’s superior convenience from midtown Manhattan to Battery Park. Especially via ground transportation.
And if you haven’t taken close notice of the Pulaski Skyway, please do, it’s a marvel of early 20th century engineering now that it’s been restored.
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
santos
Posts: 538
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:46 pm

Re: Star Alliance's EWR Fortress Hub

Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:01 am

[photoid][/photoid]
iadadd wrote:
JFK will always be seen as the primary international airport for NY and that's something Star realizes. Nevertheless there are certain Star carriers (SK, TP, ET, UA) which exclusively serve EWR and therefore still makes it a strong Star hub, I don't any circumstance that could make EWR weaker, it serves a purpose and generally does it well.


TP now serves JFK too
 
ual763
Posts: 1027
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 11:46 am

Re: Star Alliance's EWR Fortress Hub

Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:12 am

I actually quite like Newark compared to JFK, and definitely more than LGA. I find security easiest at EWR out of the 3.
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
strfyr51
Posts: 5045
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: Star Alliance's EWR Fortress Hub

Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:01 pm

janders wrote:
Considering UA does not give the time of day to many of its Star partners, they rather serve JFK and maintain relations with folks like B6 instead.

That's a bunch of bunk!
United doesn't serve JFK with flights but we still have a pretty sizeable Maintenance crew and equipment there. We could reopen JFK with a minimum amount of problems and we still might. The problem was that we didn't maintain our OWN terminal there and we should have. Were the opportunity available or reopen our own terminal there I would bet we'd jump at the chance. We still mantain all our star alliance partners that fly nto JFK and some that Aren't star alliance partners.
We might have been stupid but we're not crazy! JFK is very important to United and you might see us back there in the near future though I have no Idea what the arrangement was with EWR to get what we've got at EWR and he incentive to close JFK in the first place. the Incentive was pretty sizeable from what I understand.
 
IPFreely
Posts: 2624
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:26 am

Re: Star Alliance's EWR Fortress Hub

Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:47 pm

janders wrote:
Considering UA does not give the time of day to many of its Star partners, they rather serve JFK and maintain relations with folks like B6 instead.


What exactly does this mean? Can you provide some real examples of UA “not giving the time of day” to Star Alliance partner airlines?

Which Star Alliance airlines have relations with JetBlue? And are these relations code sharing, or if it, what are they?
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 14147
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

Re: Star Alliance's EWR Fortress Hub

Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:04 pm

PolarRoute wrote:
Maybe this is slightly going off topic, but what are the reasons for airlines choosing EWR and/or JFK? In other words, what do the airlines consider upon the choice between EWR and JFK and what do they expect from each?


EWR and LGA get much more business traffic and subsequently higher fares while Kennedy airport gets the bulk of the leisure travel and the VFR traffic. This is why there's such a dearth of service from Kennedy to Chicago, Dallas and Houston for example, if there were not a perimeter rule at LGA you would see a similar dynamic elsewhere like LAX and SFO. Kennedy has the lowest fares of the three regional airports, which thus drives demand up thanks to JetBlue. In the 1980s EWR was the region's busiest airport thanks to demand generated by PeoplExpress. EWR was the busiest airport in the NYC region from the early 1980s-2002, JetBlue have really driven Kennedy's resurgence.

There are other dynamics in play:

Port Authority statistics for November 2017:

Business only
LGA 32.4%
EWR 21.2%
JFK 8.7%

Average household income:
EWR $109,282
LGA $108,192
JFK $86,277

Domestic passengers for 12 months ending November 2017:
EWR 30,178,602
LGA 29,462,313
JFK 26,944,042

These numbers point out the dynamics, EWR and LGA are the preferred domestic and business travel airports for the region. Kennedy is the preferred international and leisure airport. It's quite shocking that LGA handles so much more domestic travelers than Kennedy considering factors like the perimeter rule, the huge presence of regional jets, lack of adequate facilities and the fact that the LGA slot restrictions are more restrictive than Kennedy's (83 movements per hour at Kennedy vs. 71 per hour at LGA).

If the perimeter rule at LGA were to be dropped, the gap between LGA and Kennedy airport in terms of domestic traffic would probably double.
Last edited by STT757 on Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4821
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

Re: Star Alliance's EWR Fortress Hub

Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:15 pm

NichCage wrote:
they choose to fly to JFK instead of EWR because it's closer to New York itself compared to Newark maybe.


Depends on where in NY itself you are going but not really, particularly if you are going anywhere in the west-side or downtown.
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
jasoncrh
Posts: 780
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2005 10:29 pm

Re: Star Alliance's EWR Fortress Hub

Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:26 pm

[
TAP Portugal has been very vocal that it gets a lot of feed from jet blue at jfk and Boston. It gets some but not much free from UA at Newark as it mainly relies on local traffic at Newark.
Singapore airlines and united have historically had a terse relationship and traditionally haven’t offered code sharing on each other.
Lufthansa gets jet blue feed at jfk, as does air china.
Many examples

quote="IPFreely"]
janders wrote:
Considering UA does not give the time of day to many of its Star partners, they rather serve JFK and maintain relations with folks like B6 instead.


What exactly does this mean? Can you provide some real examples of UA “not giving the time of day” to Star Alliance partner airlines?

Which Star Alliance airlines have relations with JetBlue? And are these relations code sharing, or if it, what are they?[/quote]
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8310
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Star Alliance's EWR Fortress Hub

Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:34 pm

MaRoFu wrote:
What will be the future of Star Alliance at EWR? There appears to be more non-affilated carriers coming into the airport every year.

I wonder what this might mean for United especially...


The assumption and question are formed poorly.

It's not a Star Alliance hub - it's a United hub, operated by United for the primary benefit of United.

It's not a fortress hub. EWR is one of three major airports serving NYC. It's not even the #1 airport. For 12 months ending November 2017, EWR accounted for only about 32% of total passenger traffic across the NYC airports of the Port Authority.

http://www.panynj.gov/airports/general-information.html

In those same docs you will see that United has a very small lead in passenger count vs. Delta. 'Fortress hub' is not a correct description. Look at AA's dominance of DFW, or Delta's dominance of Atlanta. Those are fortress hubs.

https://www.transtats.bts.gov/airports.asp
 
jetero
Posts: 4673
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:45 am

Re: Star Alliance's EWR Fortress Hub

Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:06 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
In those same docs you will see that United has a very small lead in passenger count vs. Delta. 'Fortress hub' is not a correct description. Look at AA's dominance of DFW, or Delta's dominance of Atlanta. Those are fortress hubs.

https://www.transtats.bts.gov/airports.asp


So EWR isn't a fortress hub by your definition because of the share of metro area O&D it serves, but DFW is a fortress hub, nevermind DAL probably serves these days what, close to one-third, of DFW originating traffic?

ATL, sure. Otherwise you're being a bit disingenuous by your own standards.
 
jetero
Posts: 4673
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:45 am

Re: Star Alliance's EWR Fortress Hub

Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:09 pm

ytz wrote:
PolarRoute wrote:
Maybe this is slightly going off topic, but what are the reasons for airlines choosing EWR and/or JFK? In other words, what do the airlines consider upon the choice between EWR and JFK and what do they expect from each?


Would assume it comes down to hubbing with UA vs. o/d to New York. AC is peculiar for example. It does not serve JFK. It serves LGA and EWR. With most flights going to EWR. So you're either going to EWR to get on a UA flight, or you're outside the radius for LGA.

I would assume that airlines going to EWR have more transfers to UA. And airlines going to JFK value the O/D traffic more highly.


Even back in the day, wasn't AC always bigger at EWR than JFK? Weren't the West Coast airports all served from EWR?
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 24735
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Re: Star Alliance's EWR Fortress Hub

Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:13 pm

The manner Star alliance has evolved is into a private club within a club. As result, United maintains minimum relations with the bulk of Star members instead focusing on its A++ JV with LH across the Atlantic and JV with ANA across Pacific.

The end result of this is that many Star partners do not have the ability to easily flow people across the United system at adventegous prorates and instead have gone outside and cut deals with folks like B6 and VX(AS now).
Just with JetBlue has following Star members as codeshare or frequent flyer partners - Air China, Air India, Asiana, Avianca, Brussels, Egyptair, EVA, LOT, SAA, Singapore, Turkish, TAP.

And yes, I think the comment about "not providing time of day" is actually a pretty apt description of the strained and minimal relations UA has with much of the Star family.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 6013
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

Re: Star Alliance's EWR Fortress Hub

Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:22 pm

What Star fortress hub? Better tell the many Star carriers that only serve JFK about it...they didnt get the a.net declaration!
 
NZ321
Posts: 1223
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:00 pm

Re: Star Alliance's EWR Fortress Hub

Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:36 pm

Why would Star carriers chose to hub at EWR which is so prone to delays and congestion? Especially facing the build of the new terminal A. Not going to happen in the near future IMHO. Transfer traffic is best via IAD or ORD or IAH or DEN depending on where you are coming from. Most passengers travelling into NYC will be destination passengers making a visit to NYC or NYC will be their final destination. Otherwise they will avoid an NYC connection if possible via EWR, even JFK. Missed connections via EWR are common place in my experience.
Plane mad!
 
User avatar
airzim
Posts: 1450
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2001 7:40 am

Re: Star Alliance's EWR Fortress Hub

Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:46 pm

LAXintl wrote:
The manner Star alliance has evolved is into a private club within a club. As result, United maintains minimum relations with the bulk of Star members instead focusing on its A++ JV with LH across the Atlantic and JV with ANA across Pacific.

The end result of this is that many Star partners do not have the ability to easily flow people across the United system at adventegous prorates and instead have gone outside and cut deals with folks like B6 and VX(AS now).
Just with JetBlue has following Star members as codeshare or frequent flyer partners - Air China, Air India, Asiana, Avianca, Brussels, Egyptair, EVA, LOT, SAA, Singapore, Turkish, TAP.

And yes, I think the comment about "not providing time of day" is actually a pretty apt description of the strained and minimal relations UA has with much of the Star family.


United is more than happy to let B6 and AS take those terrible pro-rates from the inbound long hauls. There virtually no financial incentive for UA to displace their own (or JV partners) passengers to take a SN passenger inbound from Africa via BRU to somewhere in the US.
 
rwsea
Posts: 2515
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:23 pm

Re: Star Alliance's EWR Fortress Hub

Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:58 pm

I've been converted into an EWR believer. My last two trips to NY I stayed in midtown. The first trip I used JFK, and it was over 90 minutes each way to the airport via Uber. Just getting across Manhattan and into Brooklyn added 45 minutes to the trip. EWR on the other hand was 30 mins each way. I know that the Lincoln Tunnel can be a pain, but it was like night and day using EWR vs. JFK. Based on this experience, I will never use JFK again if I can avoid it.
 
jasoncrh
Posts: 780
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2005 10:29 pm

Re: Star Alliance's EWR Fortress Hub

Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:06 pm

SN is part of the JV United is in with Lufthansa. United is very happy to take the traffic SN provides at Brussels.

airzim wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
The manner Star alliance has evolved is into a private club within a club. As result, United maintains minimum relations with the bulk of Star members instead focusing on its A++ JV with LH across the Atlantic and JV with ANA across Pacific.

The end result of this is that many Star partners do not have the ability to easily flow people across the United system at adventegous prorates and instead have gone outside and cut deals with folks like B6 and VX(AS now).
Just with JetBlue has following Star members as codeshare or frequent flyer partners - Air China, Air India, Asiana, Avianca, Brussels, Egyptair, EVA, LOT, SAA, Singapore, Turkish, TAP.

And yes, I think the comment about "not providing time of day" is actually a pretty apt description of the strained and minimal relations UA has with much of the Star family.


United is more than happy to let B6 and AS take those terrible pro-rates from the inbound long hauls. There virtually no financial incentive for UA to displace their own (or JV partners) passengers to take a SN passenger inbound from Africa via BRU to somewhere in the US.
 
User avatar
janders
Moderator
Posts: 1121
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:27 pm

Re: Star Alliance's EWR Fortress Hub

Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:08 pm

Lets not forget also that Kirby said leaving JFK was a mistake

“I wish I could roll back the clock and change the decision,” Kirby said, according a recording of the event. “It was the wrong decision.”

The move led to UA loss of big corporate accounts that took business away from other parts of the network beyond the JFK flights.

https://skift.com/2017/04/21/united-air ... -decision/

airzim wrote:
United is more than happy to let B6 and AS take those terrible pro-rates from the inbound long hauls. There virtually no financial incentive for UA to displace their own (or JV partners) passengers to take a SN passenger inbound from Africa via BRU to somewhere in the US.


Yes sure that is UA's choice, but imo a rather short-sighted one. Ultimately it leading to a fracture in the alliance as member carriers opt to work outside and will drive long term revenues away in the future from UA and things like MileagePlus.
For example the numbers of TrueBlue members overseas was "staggering" according to B6 townhall. Now many of those once Star customers will look at JetBlue for their US domestic travel versus maybe prior opting automatically for UA due to Star affiliation.
"We make war that we may live in peace." -- Aristotle
 
User avatar
JetBuddy
Posts: 2572
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:04 am

Re: Star Alliance's EWR Fortress Hub

Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:09 pm

rwsea wrote:
I've been converted into an EWR believer. My last two trips to NY I stayed in midtown. The first trip I used JFK, and it was over 90 minutes each way to the airport via Uber. Just getting across Manhattan and into Brooklyn added 45 minutes to the trip. EWR on the other hand was 30 mins each way. I know that the Lincoln Tunnel can be a pain, but it was like night and day using EWR vs. JFK. Based on this experience, I will never use JFK again if I can avoid it.


I agree. EWR is easier and faster. The only downside is the extra toll road charge between Newark and Manhattan. But it's worth it. JFK has some nice fixed cab rates going from the airport to Manhattan, and limo rates going the other way, but in my experience it's slower than the shuttle from EWR.

From the perspective of a Norwegian person, most people here seem to be very aware that SAS flies to Newark and Norwegian to JFK. But they know both airports are actually New York destinations, especially frequent fliers.
 
User avatar
PolarRoute
Posts: 83
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:56 pm

Re: Star Alliance's EWR Fortress Hub

Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:23 pm

ytz wrote:
Would assume it comes down to hubbing with UA vs. o/d to New York. AC is peculiar for example. It does not serve JFK. It serves LGA and EWR. With most flights going to EWR. So you're either going to EWR to get on a UA flight, or you're outside the radius for LGA.

I would assume that airlines going to EWR have more transfers to UA. And airlines going to JFK value the O/D traffic more highly.


Thanks. But why would JFK generate more O/D traffic? IMU, EWR is closer to Jersey area which stimulates more business demand compared to JFK. Is it simply because the ratio between business travelers and leisure travelers leans toward the former?

STT757 wrote:
EWR and LGA get much more business traffic and subsequently higher fares while Kennedy airport gets the bulk of the leisure travel and the VFR traffic. This is why there's such a dearth of service from Kennedy to Chicago, Dallas and Houston for example, if there were not a perimeter rule at LGA you would see a similar dynamic elsewhere like LAX and SFO. Kennedy has the lowest fares of the three regional airports, which thus drives demand up thanks to JetBlue. In the 1980s EWR was the region's busiest airport thanks to demand generated by PeoplExpress. EWR was the busiest airport in the NYC region from the early 1980s-2002, JetBlue have really driven Kennedy's resurgence.

There are other dynamics in play:

Port Authority statistics for November 2017:

Business only
LGA 32.4%
EWR 21.2%
JFK 8.7%

Average household income:
EWR $109,282
LGA $108,192
JFK $86,277

Domestic passengers for 12 months ending November 2017:
EWR 30,178,602
LGA 29,462,313
JFK 26,944,042

These numbers point out the dynamics, EWR and LGA are the preferred domestic and business travel airports for the region. Kennedy is the preferred international and leisure airport. It's quite shocking that LGA handles so much more domestic travelers than Kennedy considering factors like the perimeter rule, the huge presence of regional jets, lack of adequate facilities and the fact that the LGA slot restrictions are more restrictive than Kennedy's (83 movements per hour at Kennedy vs. 71 per hour at LGA).

If the perimeter rule at LGA were to be dropped, the gap between LGA and Kennedy airport in terms of domestic traffic would probably double.


Thanks for the nice facts. Interesting to see how much of business traveler stakes LGA has.
 
jasoncrh
Posts: 780
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2005 10:29 pm

Re: Star Alliance's EWR Fortress Hub

Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:34 pm

Yeah no. that's not the way it works..
United only flew to JFK from 3 cities. Most of which already had service by the vast majority of the Star carriers that JFK did. United preferred selling seats from JFK to LAX/SFO to passengers just traveling between JFK and LAX/SFO as those in general are higher revenue. They arent and never were in business to ferry low yield pro rate traffic to their star carriers.

United isnt worried about losing low yield transit traffic to EgyptAir, which is one of the main carriers at JFK and not at EWR. United picks and chooses who it works with in the Alliance, and has fortified relationships with them through their joint ventures. The value it gets from these fortified joint ventures is exponentially higher than it would ever get from simply funneling low yield transit traffic to random carriers.

United serves the same customers as the people traveling on B6 through JFK through other routings. Just not through New York. For example, JetBlue flies a lot of people from Florida through JFK to Europe. United can serve those same customers on their own metal, having them transfer through Newark or Dulles. They'd rather keep those passengers on their own metal the whole way than hand them off to a competitor. For Miami or Orlando traffic, United can, by virture of its joint venture with Lufthansa, put Europe bound passenges on a Lufthansa flight, which preserves their share. From California, another b6 stronghold, United simply flies passengers nonstop directly from California, has the passengers fly nonstop on a JV carrier from california, or connects them through other hubs such as Chicago, Denver, Washington, or Newark. Low yield connections transferring customers to non-aligned carriers at JfK is not a business united needs to be in.

As far as UA and JfK, UA gets better yields at EWR than it does at JFK for its flights to LAX and SFO, and despite what they said, they still have much of the same corporate business they did before.

janders wrote:
Lets not forget also that Kirby said leaving JFK was a mistake

“I wish I could roll back the clock and change the decision,” Kirby said, according a recording of the event. “It was the wrong decision.”

The move led to UA loss of big corporate accounts that took business away from other parts of the network beyond the JFK flights.

https://skift.com/2017/04/21/united-air ... -decision/

airzim wrote:
United is more than happy to let B6 and AS take those terrible pro-rates from the inbound long hauls. There virtually no financial incentive for UA to displace their own (or JV partners) passengers to take a SN passenger inbound from Africa via BRU to somewhere in the US.


Yes sure that is UA's choice, but imo a rather short-sighted one. Ultimately it leading to a fracture in the alliance as member carriers opt to work outside and will drive long term revenues away in the future from UA and things like MileagePlus.
For example the numbers of TrueBlue members overseas was "staggering" according to B6 townhall. Now many of those once Star customers will look at JetBlue for their US domestic travel versus maybe prior opting automatically for UA due to Star affiliation.
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 24735
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Re: Star Alliance's EWR Fortress Hub

Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:50 pm

airzim wrote:
United is more than happy to let B6 and AS take those terrible pro-rates from the inbound long hauls. There virtually no financial incentive for UA to displace their own (or JV partners) passengers to take a SN passenger inbound from Africa via BRU to somewhere in the US.


That is certainly a view one can take, but likely harmful in the long run.

You know things are not well within Star, when a member sells more intra-US segments on Delta (yes Delta of all carriers) than it does on fellow member United.

In the long run, I believe things will be changing. Kirby having experience OW came back to Star quite surprised at the lack of integration and cooperation. Yes the Atlantic and Pacific JVs and future Latin JVs are great, but the alliance within alliance game likely has gone too far and ends up hurting everyone at the end.

Viewing things strictly from a bookkeepers POV can lose sight of the bigger picture.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
DoctorVenkman
Posts: 216
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 10:10 pm

Re: Star Alliance's EWR Fortress Hub

Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:04 pm

rwsea wrote:
I've been converted into an EWR believer. My last two trips to NY I stayed in midtown. The first trip I used JFK, and it was over 90 minutes each way to the airport via Uber. Just getting across Manhattan and into Brooklyn added 45 minutes to the trip. EWR on the other hand was 30 mins each way. I know that the Lincoln Tunnel can be a pain, but it was like night and day using EWR vs. JFK. Based on this experience, I will never use JFK again if I can avoid it.


Thank you. This is what everyone who lives in NYC knows. The only people who are saying JFK is the "main" airport are those who live outside of NYC and don't know any better.
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 14147
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

Re: Star Alliance's EWR Fortress Hub

Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:11 pm

I think the ultimate solution to many issues is for B6 to join Star, and to form an alliance with UA similar to what CO had with NWA. UA customers who want JFK can fly B6 Mint and earn Mileage plus, B6 customers can get access to UA's huge International network and more diverse domestic network (Mid-West, California, Texas, Hawaii). Also UA customers get better connections to Florida via B6.

Star Carriers could then use B6 for connections at BOS and JFK.

B6 and UA could also benefit elsewhere, perhaps they could work together at LAX where UA would turn over more of the domestic flying to B6 allowing UA to concentrate on the International flying. It would give B6 an out of LGB and in to LAX where they could be more competitive domestically. Perhaps UA could do something similar at IAD, move domestic to B6 and concentrate on International.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
jasoncrh
Posts: 780
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2005 10:29 pm

Re: Star Alliance's EWR Fortress Hub

Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:27 pm

What you suggest - UA "turning over flying at LAX" is simply illegal. Airlines are not allowed to coordinate scheduling and service decisions domestically without antitrust immunity, something that has never been done before in the domestic market. And, just giving it to JetBlue doesnt mean they'd keep the revenue, which is ulttimately what UA wants to do.

Comments such as these belie a complete lack of understanding of how airlines and businesses in general work.

UA would NEVER say "okay, JetBlue, I'll give you my high yield customers flying transcon and let them fly Mint". That kind of thinking is ridiculous.

STT757 wrote:
I think the ultimate solution to many issues is for B6 to join Star, and to form an alliance with UA similar to what CO had with NWA. UA customers who want JFK can fly B6 Mint and earn Mileage plus, B6 customers can get access to UA's huge International network and more diverse domestic network (Mid-West, California, Texas, Hawaii). Also UA customers get better connections to Florida via B6.

Star Carriers could then use B6 for connections at BOS and JFK.

B6 and UA could also benefit elsewhere, perhaps they could work together at LAX where UA would turn over more of the domestic flying to B6 allowing UA to concentrate on the International flying. It would give B6 an out of LGB and in to LAX where they could be more competitive domestically. Perhaps UA could do something similar at IAD, move domestic to B6 and concentrate on International.
 
User avatar
airzim
Posts: 1450
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2001 7:40 am

Re: Star Alliance's EWR Fortress Hub

Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:55 pm

LAXintl wrote:
airzim wrote:
United is more than happy to let B6 and AS take those terrible pro-rates from the inbound long hauls. There virtually no financial incentive for UA to displace their own (or JV partners) passengers to take a SN passenger inbound from Africa via BRU to somewhere in the US.


That is certainly a view one can take, but likely harmful in the long run.

You know things are not well within Star, when a member sells more intra-US segments on Delta (yes Delta of all carriers) than it does on fellow member United.

In the long run, I believe things will be changing. Kirby having experience OW came back to Star quite surprised at the lack of integration and cooperation. Yes the Atlantic and Pacific JVs and future Latin JVs are great, but the alliance within alliance game likely has gone too far and ends up hurting everyone at the end.

Viewing things strictly from a bookkeepers POV can lose sight of the bigger picture.


What's the big picture that's missing? How is this harmful in the long run?

First off, Star is a marketing relationship. While it's nice to give FFP redemptions to your customers, the overall revenue benefits of most of these smaller carriers is likely negligible.

Secondly, United, LH/SN/LX/OS, AC, NZ, and NH are behemoths in their respective markets. They likely serve (and I'm guessing) 80-85% of all worthwhile top O&D target markets with the alliance. These carriers are all going to favor pushing JV traffic on their own metal rather than take a reduced rate prorate from a partner.

MS, TK, TP, LO, CA, TG have some of the lowest intercontinental fares. Every market that they served can likely be served via a JV partner with comparable timings and fares. Just this week, TP is selling $1,400 RT J class TATL fares. Can you imagine the prorate if UA was taking that passenger to/from Texas via EWR to Europe in Business Class? It's likely under $100 RT. If B6 or DL want that business have at it. Both incidentally probably like that traffic at JFK given the low domestic O&D market compared to LGA and EWR. Adding OAL connections likely offset flying around spoiled inventory.

I'm of the humble opinion that the alliances as we know them are over. JVs are the way of the future, and for an airline the size of LH and UA they don't really need alliances to be successful.
 
User avatar
airzim
Posts: 1450
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2001 7:40 am

Re: Star Alliance's EWR Fortress Hub

Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:07 pm

janders wrote:
Lets not forget also that Kirby said leaving JFK was a mistake

“I wish I could roll back the clock and change the decision,” Kirby said, according a recording of the event. “It was the wrong decision.”

The move led to UA loss of big corporate accounts that took business away from other parts of the network beyond the JFK flights.

https://skift.com/2017/04/21/united-air ... -decision/

airzim wrote:
United is more than happy to let B6 and AS take those terrible pro-rates from the inbound long hauls. There virtually no financial incentive for UA to displace their own (or JV partners) passengers to take a SN passenger inbound from Africa via BRU to somewhere in the US.


Yes sure that is UA's choice, but imo a rather short-sighted one. Ultimately it leading to a fracture in the alliance as member carriers opt to work outside and will drive long term revenues away in the future from UA and things like MileagePlus.
For example the numbers of TrueBlue members overseas was "staggering" according to B6 townhall. Now many of those once Star customers will look at JetBlue for their US domestic travel versus maybe prior opting automatically for UA due to Star affiliation.


I would be shocked if UA was losing sleep over a number of overseas customer for their ad hoc domestic travel to the US. Especially if they're going to see Mickey in Florida.

Alliance members are already working outside their respective alliances. CX with NZ, CZ with AA, QF with EK, DL with MU, etc. This is representative across every major alliance globally. Alliance are glorified marketing arrangements.

As for jetBlue, to be honest as a business traveler who lives in NYC, I will never take jetBlue.

1) JFK is a non starter
2) Leisure oriented flight schedules. Not enough early morning flights to business markets outside Florida. Conversely, not enough late evening flights back to NYC
3) No First Class
4) No OAL reciprocity. Flexibility is key and if B6 can't endorse me to an OAL due to IRROP, they don't have much value.
 
User avatar
flyingclrs727
Posts: 2627
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:44 am

Re: Star Alliance's EWR Fortress Hub

Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:10 pm

In addition to the lack of sterile connections between terminals making JFK much less desirable for international connections, LGA siphons off lots of domestic traffic that could potentially feed JFK international flights. The failure to build a European style transit terminal as part of JFK's air terminals means JFK can't be made more convenient than LGA for domestic travelers.
 
codc10
Posts: 2899
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

Re: Star Alliance's EWR Fortress Hub

Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:21 pm

janders wrote:
Lets not forget also that Kirby said leaving JFK was a mistake

“I wish I could roll back the clock and change the decision,” Kirby said, according a recording of the event. “It was the wrong decision.”

The move led to UA loss of big corporate accounts that took business away from other parts of the network beyond the JFK flights.

https://skift.com/2017/04/21/united-air ... -decision/


UA leaving JFK weakened its California franchise more than New York. Prior to the merger, United wasn't a very competitive carrier for the NY-based traveler unless they were bicoastal types, predominantly in the transcon market, plus Chicago, and willing to connect to get elsewhere or fly alliance partners. Simply put, UA didn't offer travelers much as compared to DL, AA or CO at the time.

New Yorkers, especially in Manhattan below 59th street, know EWR is a viable option, but I believe the perception outside of New York is that JFK is a superior New York option to EWR similar to LHR versus LGW. We know that's not really the case in practice, but the fact remains that United became a weaker option, on paper, for West Coast corporate traffic when it dropped SFO/LAX-JFK service. Even though the EWR schedules are superior and Manhattan access can be just as good as or better than JFK, UA sales staff needed to pitch EWR as a reasonable alternative to the familiarity/comfort zone of JFK. That's a problem.
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 24735
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Re: Star Alliance's EWR Fortress Hub

Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:30 pm

airzim wrote:
What's the big picture that's missing? How is this harmful in the long run?

First off, Star is a marketing relationship. While it's nice to give FFP redemptions to your customers, the overall revenue benefits of most of these smaller carriers is likely negligible.


Since Star is marketing relationship, that is precisely why it behooves to keep the client within the group and not channel them to 3rd parties needlessly. Sure the volume and revenue might be negligible individual basis, but a 100 passengers here, a 100 passengers there do add up.

For a Star client airline of mine they interline within the US average of over 500 segments daily. Thats almost 200,000 annually which could largely utilize UA itineraries but dont.

New leadership at both UA and now Star itself are increasingly under opinion that closer cooperation is required and the US market, in particular, is a problem spot for members.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
User avatar
flyingclrs727
Posts: 2627
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:44 am

Re: Star Alliance's EWR Fortress Hub

Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:39 pm

LAXintl wrote:
airzim wrote:
What's the big picture that's missing? How is this harmful in the long run?

First off, Star is a marketing relationship. While it's nice to give FFP redemptions to your customers, the overall revenue benefits of most of these smaller carriers is likely negligible.


Since Star is marketing relationship, that is precisely why it behooves to keep the client within the group and not channel them to 3rd parties needlessly. Sure the volume and revenue might be negligible individual basis, but a 100 passengers here, a 100 passengers there do add up.

For a Star client airline of mine they interline within the US average of over 500 segments daily. Thats almost 200,000 annually which could largely utilize UA itineraries but dont.

New leadership at both UA and now Star itself are increasingly under opinion that closer cooperation is required and the US market, in particular, is a problem spot for members.


But that applies to any of the Star Alliance hubs in the US. JFK still has problems as a domestic to international connecting hub regardless of whether United flies there or not.
 
hayzel777
Posts: 638
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2016 3:18 am

Re: Star Alliance's EWR Fortress Hub

Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:40 pm

NichCage wrote:
There is still a decent amount of Star Alliance airlines serving EWR, and they will not go away. AC, CA, AI, OS, AV, ET, LO, LH, SK, LX, and TP all serve EWR.

However, there are some Star Alliance airlines that serve JFK. OZ and BR are some examples. New York is a very popular destination and they choose to fly to JFK instead of EWR because it's closer to New York itself compared to Newark maybe. Some airlines just choose JFK for reasons, I guess.

BR serves JFK as most Taiwanese live on Long Island/around JFK, not because it is closer to NYC!
 
User avatar
airzim
Posts: 1450
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2001 7:40 am

Re: Star Alliance's EWR Fortress Hub

Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:52 pm

LAXintl wrote:
airzim wrote:
What's the big picture that's missing? How is this harmful in the long run?

First off, Star is a marketing relationship. While it's nice to give FFP redemptions to your customers, the overall revenue benefits of most of these smaller carriers is likely negligible.


Since Star is marketing relationship, that is precisely why it behooves to keep the client within the group and not channel them to 3rd parties needlessly. Sure the volume and revenue might be negligible individual basis, but a 100 passengers here, a 100 passengers there do add up.

For a Star client airline of mine they interline within the US average of over 500 segments daily. Thats almost 200,000 annually which could largely utilize UA itineraries but dont.

New leadership at both UA and now Star itself are increasingly under opinion that closer cooperation is required and the US market, in particular, is a problem spot for members.


Perhaps, but with UA running between 80-85% LF in the US, the potential of displacing higher network revenue is very high. Maybe there's another revenue distribution model coming but that means someone is going to take the hit somewhere.
 
User avatar
mercure1
Posts: 4857
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:13 am

Re: Star Alliance's EWR Fortress Hub

Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:53 pm

From Europe point of view, it seems to me EWR has a negative PR association, if for no other fact its listed as being in another state while JFK is clearly New York.

I also agree it seems odd that Star partners outside of JVs utilizing to such large degree airlines besides UA on beyond gateway travel.
Besides obvious lack of options at JFK, on two occasions I was offered non UA connections when arriving at West Coast UA hub. Seems rather crazy when Star member UA has suitable timed flights at both LAX and SFO, but one is put on a seemingly random other non affiliated airlines.
mercure f-wtcc
 
jerseyewr777
Posts: 122
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 1:06 am

Re: Star Alliance's EWR Fortress Hub

Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:55 pm

BR serves JFK as most Taiwanese live on Long Island/around JFK, not because it is closer to NYC![/quote]

BR did serve EWR for 20 years before moving to JFK.
 
User avatar
N62NA
Posts: 4476
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2003 1:05 am

Re: Star Alliance's EWR Fortress Hub

Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:54 pm

STT757 wrote:
Domestic passengers for 12 months ending November 2017:
EWR 30,178,602
LGA 29,462,313
JFK 26,944,042

These numbers point out the dynamics, EWR and LGA are the preferred domestic and business travel airports for the region. .


Seems to me that JFK and LGA are the preferred domestic travel airports for the region with 55 million vs EWR at 30 million.
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 14147
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

Re: Star Alliance's EWR Fortress Hub

Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:48 pm

N62NA wrote:
STT757 wrote:
Domestic passengers for 12 months ending November 2017:
EWR 30,178,602
LGA 29,462,313
JFK 26,944,042

These numbers point out the dynamics, EWR and LGA are the preferred domestic and business travel airports for the region. .


Seems to me that JFK and LGA are the preferred domestic travel airports for the region with 55 million vs EWR at 30 million.


Actually it's EWR and LGA with a combined 59+ million vs Kennedy's 26 million.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
jayunited
Posts: 2976
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: Star Alliance's EWR Fortress Hub

Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:07 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Since Star is marketing relationship, that is precisely why it behooves to keep the client within the group and not channel them to 3rd parties needlessly. Sure the volume and revenue might be negligible individual basis, but a 100 passengers here, a 100 passengers there do add up.

For a Star client airline of mine they interline within the US average of over 500 segments daily. Thats almost 200,000 annually which could largely utilize UA itineraries but dont.

New leadership at both UA and now Star itself are increasingly under opinion that closer cooperation is required and the US market, in particular, is a problem spot for members.


You are making it sound like UA does not have interline agreements with other airlines outside of Star when we actually do. Both DL and B6 are utilized by Star carriers at JFK but the reverse is true here at ORD, IAH, and SFO where where Sky and One World members utilizing UA because at some point UA has to think about cost vs profit. There is not a single US carrier who gets along with every member of their respective alliances they all pick and choose certain carriers to work closely with, while most other carriers in the alliance have to settle for scraps or use other carriers for their passengers travel needs. This problem is not unique to UA and Star but it is also a AA One World and a DL Sky Team issue. The US3 works closely with carriers who offer the best benefits their already established networks. Someone gave an example of a passenger traveling Europe - Texas via JFK, if a passenger choose JFK as their connecting point then of course DL is going to take that passenger at the reduced rate because DL already has plane scheduled to fly this particular route to Texas. So taking the passenger at the reduced rate is not costing DL money. The only way DL looses money on this passenger is if the flight is oversold and the compensation for the oversell condition cost more than the price of the ticket. The same is true at ORD if a passenger from Seoul is traveling on KE and their final destination is MIA or FLL and they choose to connect at ORD DL is not an option for that traveler but both AA and UA are if they want to go nonstop from ORD.
One thing we have to remember is passengers always have a choice, no matter how closely airlines cooperate within their alliances or even JV's passengers still have a choice. I remember in my final years on the ramp at ORD before coming to Willis everyday there would be passengers traveling FRA-ORD-DFW, they would travel on LH and AA. They would choose AA because they didn't want to sit at ORD for 4-5 hours waiting for a UA flight to DFW. Despite ORD being a UA hub there isn't enough demand for UA to run hourly flights but AA can because of their hub at DFW. Perhaps UA could add more flights on this route but then what happens to yields on the route they are trashed because UA is trying to capture more Star traffic. At what point does an airline like UA say it is okay for AA to take a few of LH's passengers on their ORD-DFW route and at what point does it apply to hubs like JFK vs EWR.
 
tphuang
Posts: 5354
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Star Alliance's EWR Fortress Hub

Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:36 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
rwsea wrote:
I've been converted into an EWR believer. My last two trips to NY I stayed in midtown. The first trip I used JFK, and it was over 90 minutes each way to the airport via Uber. Just getting across Manhattan and into Brooklyn added 45 minutes to the trip. EWR on the other hand was 30 mins each way. I know that the Lincoln Tunnel can be a pain, but it was like night and day using EWR vs. JFK. Based on this experience, I will never use JFK again if I can avoid it.


I agree. EWR is easier and faster. The only downside is the extra toll road charge between Newark and Manhattan. But it's worth it. JFK has some nice fixed cab rates going from the airport to Manhattan, and limo rates going the other way, but in my experience it's slower than the shuttle from EWR.

From the perspective of a Norwegian person, most people here seem to be very aware that SAS flies to Newark and Norwegian to JFK. But they know both airports are actually New York destinations, especially frequent fliers.


I have no clue which part of Manhattan rwsea is talking about, but I'm normally able to get to midtown from JFK in under 60 minutes. And to midtown, it's 75 minutes from JFK airport via airtrain. During less busy hours, I frequently go from midtown to JFK in under 45 minutes. And why would you go from JFK to manhattan first and then into brooklyn? That doesn't even make sense. On weekday afternoons, I have for several times get stuck outside of Lincoln tunnel for 30 to 60 minutes and nearly missed flights due to that. There are certainly large parts of Manhattan that is closer to Newark, but not everyone lives in west side or downtown Manhattan.

By public transportation, it's far more convenient to go to JFK. You can take any A,E train to meet with airtans. Whereas for EWR, it has to be penn station first.

As for jetBlue, to be honest as a business traveler who lives in NYC, I will never take jetBlue.

1) JFK is a non starter
2) Leisure oriented flight schedules. Not enough early morning flights to business markets outside Florida. Conversely, not enough late evening flights back to NYC
3) No First Class
4) No OAL reciprocity. Flexibility is key and if B6 can't endorse me to an OAL due to IRROP, they don't have much value.

and for my firm's business travel, a lot of people (including myself do take JetBlue)
1) JFK has the best schedule and fares to Florida and beyond perimeter locations.
2) depending on your industry. For finance industry, outside of ORD, RDU and DCA (where amtrak is the best option anyhow), their schedule to other major business location is not bad.
3) most corporate policy does not qualify for first class. for routes that do, mint is the best option anyhow.
And for top business markets, those E90 EMS as far as I'm concerned is as comfortable as domestic FC.
4) IRROP is a problem, but they are rare. You can always pay a premium for last minute booking on another airline the few times their flight gets cancelled.

Port Authority statistics for November 2017:

Business only
LGA 32.4%
EWR 21.2%
JFK 8.7%

Average household income:
EWR $109,282
LGA $108,192
JFK $86,277

Domestic passengers for 12 months ending November 2017:
EWR 30,178,602
LGA 29,462,313
JFK 26,944,042

These numbers point out the dynamics, EWR and LGA are the preferred domestic and business travel airports for the region. Kennedy is the preferred international and leisure airport. It's quite shocking that LGA handles so much more domestic travelers than Kennedy considering factors like the perimeter rule, the huge presence of regional jets, lack of adequate facilities and the fact that the LGA slot restrictions are more restrictive than Kennedy's (83 movements per hour at Kennedy vs. 71 per hour at LGA).

If the perimeter rule at LGA were to be dropped, the gap between LGA and Kennedy airport in terms of domestic traffic would probably double.


There is no question EWR is a more attractive airport for business travellers within perimeter than JFK. The problem with EWR is with the airline situation. As a fortress hub of UA, you will typically find better options schedule/fare wise for international and beyond perimeter flying out of JFK. And a lot of people just prefer DL and B6 over UA.

Now, if the new terminal A actually offers more gates for other carriers, so UA doesn't dominate so many routes, that may change. For example, how many people even know who the second largest carrier at EWR is?
 
User avatar
N62NA
Posts: 4476
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2003 1:05 am

Re: Star Alliance's EWR Fortress Hub

Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:45 pm

STT757 wrote:
N62NA wrote:
STT757 wrote:
Domestic passengers for 12 months ending November 2017:
EWR 30,178,602
LGA 29,462,313
JFK 26,944,042

These numbers point out the dynamics, EWR and LGA are the preferred domestic and business travel airports for the region. .


Seems to me that JFK and LGA are the preferred domestic travel airports for the region with 55 million vs EWR at 30 million.


Actually it's EWR and LGA with a combined 59+ million vs Kennedy's 26 million.


However JFK+LGA handily beat EWR.
 
codc10
Posts: 2899
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

Re: Star Alliance's EWR Fortress Hub

Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:02 pm

N62NA wrote:
STT757 wrote:
N62NA wrote:

Seems to me that JFK and LGA are the preferred domestic travel airports for the region with 55 million vs EWR at 30 million.


Actually it's EWR and LGA with a combined 59+ million vs Kennedy's 26 million.


However JFK+LGA handily beat EWR.


No kidding. I am not sure what point that illustrates besides one's ability to make a simple mathematical computation.

The statistics show that EWR and LGA have a higher volume of domestic travelers than JFK, in much the same way that EWR and JFK have a higher volume of international traffic than LGA. EWR is more balanced in terms of domestic/international traffic than LGA or JFK. In essence, it's a split operation.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 77Phoebe, AirlineCritic, amax1977, ASMD11, aznmadsci, Baidu [Spider], Bing [Bot], BirdBrain, DobboDobbo, doug, dstblj52, eamondzhang, fessor, Guji, jetcentric787, JoshP1, Phosphorus, richcandy, Rifitto, SJL, TTailedTiger, ual777newpaint, WAC, Wallsendmag, Yahoo [Bot] and 170 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos