Boi I was not expecting this at all but...

Air India will operate 3 times a week direct flight from Delhi to Tel Aviv, Israel effective 20th March. Saudi Arabia has allowed overflying rights.

AI139 1800-2145 DEL-TLV 2,4,7 B788
AI140 2315-1000+1 TLV-DEL 2,4,7 B788

All times are local

To those who dont know, Air India already had completed plans to start DEL-TLV but was denied by countries from which the plane was gonna overfly, thus ruining their plans. This news comes after Isreal PM visited India 2weeks ago.

Good going Air India! Jai Hind!

From those flight times, it looks like they have overflight rights on the westbound but not on the eastbound.

Source? If this is true the real breaking news here is an airline being allowed to fly over an Arab country on the way to/from Israel.

I really don't think that Saudi Arabia would really allow AI to fly DEL-TLV over there airspace. Other countries such as the UAE, Iran, Pakistan, etc would not give permission because they don't recognize Israel and won't allow a flight from that country to fly over there airspace.

I have to see some proof before I believe Saudi Arabia would allow AI to fly DEL-TLV over there airspace, I just don't believe it.

I wouldn’t be surprised if they had to go north over Turkey like Cathay Pacific does.

VarunSolanki747 wrote:

Boi I was not expecting this at all but...

Air India will operate 3 times a week direct flight from Delhi to Tel Aviv, Israel effective 20th March. Saudi Arabia has allowed overflying rights.

AI139 1800-2145 DEL-TLV 2,4,7 B788
AI140 2315-1000+1 TLV-DEL 2,4,7 B788

All times are local

To those who dont know, Air India already had completed plans to start DEL-TLV but was denied by countries from which the plane was gonna overfly, thus ruining their plans. This news comes after Isreal PM visited India 2weeks ago.

Good going Air India! Jai Hind!

Source?

Article from the local media in India:

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/bus ... 733098.cms

Slightly different schedule posted here than what was shared last year (see post #26):

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1356745&p=19389363&hilit=slots+tlv#p19389363

It's quite likely that the Kingdom has allowed overflight permission, but it cannot be the only country whose permission would be required. See the box in the article below that outlines three possible routes:

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... I4DRK.html

For either Route 1 or Route 2, Air India would need permission from Oman, the UAE, and apparently Bahrain as well. (Egypt and Israel have diplomatic relations.)

If this really comes to fruition, it could have happened only after a highly elaborate diplomatic dance.

Is there that much traffic between DEL and TLV? Why not BOM-TLV?

ytz wrote:

Is there that much traffic between DEL and TLV? Why not BOM-TLV?

Babus in DEL want to enjoy holidays in Israel.

LY flies BOM-TLV already

ytz wrote:

Is there that much traffic between DEL and TLV? Why not BOM-TLV?

Because DEL is AI's hub, and LY already serves BOM.

VarunSolanki747 wrote:

AI139 1800-2145 DEL-TLV 2,4,7 B788
AI140 2315-1000+1 TLV-DEL 2,4,7 B788

Wasn't AI140 used for the former JFK-BOM nonstop flight?

No surprise a lot of Indians who are Christians and will visit Jerusalem.

Air India also sells cheap connections to BKK, at least from Europe.

Considering how popular is Thailand for Israelis. and without ME3 competition, I think they could easily fill the back of the bus with Israelis flying TLV-DEL-BKK.

Atlwarrior wrote:

No surprise a lot of Indians who are Christians and will visit Jerusalem.

There have been a number of trade delegations recently between India and Israel. There have been some high profile politician visits in the last year.

Israel and India are linking their high-tech industries, not looking for holiday-makers! That’s why El Al and United are flying to San Francisco; it’s not like there’s suddenly a demand to have a holiday from the Bay Area. There are several O&D cities, primarily New York and Miami, that rely on religious/ethnic traffic, but these new routes to/from Israel are

Continued.....

tapping into high-tech industries, space, medicine, etc.

I don't think the Israelis will feel comfortable flying over saudi airspace especially in case of an emergency. Anyway does this route overfly Pak airspace or will it fly down to Gujarat and head further west ?

killswitch13 wrote:

I don't think the Israelis will feel comfortable flying over saudi airspace especially in case of an emergency. Anyway does this route overfly Pak airspace or will it fly down to Gujarat and head further west ?

Why? Saudi is an ally of the US (such as Israel) and a relatively prosperous and civilised country. A diversion to JED or RUH would land in an airport comparable to a Western standard (at least when the new JED airport opens this year), with technical support for planes and, worst case scenario, Western hotels around in a safe environment (there are terror threats in Saudi, but not different than Western Europe or Israel today). Many Saudis have travelled abroad and crossed with Israelis, Jews and Haredim.

I suspect Pakistan and Afghanistan would be a very different story. Other than the lack of general security (e.g. the terrorist attack a few days ago to that hotel in Kabul), this is the kind of place where locals burn someone for sorcery or that kind of stuff. Not sure how happy the "local crowds" would feel knowing a few dozens of Israelis landed in their country.

SCQ83 wrote:

Why? Saudi is an ally of the US (such as Israel) and a relatively prosperous and civilised country. A diversion to JED or RUH would land in an airport comparable to a Western standard (at least when the new JED airport opens this year), with technical support for planes and, worst case scenario, Western hotels around in a safe environment (there are terror threats in Saudi, but not different than Western Europe or Israel today). Many Saudis have travelled abroad and crossed with Israelis, Jews and Haredim.

I suspect Pakistan and Afghanistan would be a very different story. Other than the lack of general security (e.g. the terrorist attack a few days ago to that hotel in Kabul), this is the kind of place where locals burn someone for sorcery or that kind of stuff. Not sure how happy the "local crowds" would feel knowing a few dozens of Israelis landed in their country.

Saudi Arabia is prosperous, but I wouldn't go as far as using civilized. It is a country where beheading is prevalent form of punishment, which does not recognize Israel as a country, has no diplomatic relationship with Israel, and does not allow people holding Israeli passports to enter (even those with Israel stamps in their passport). Do you seriously believe a Israeli / Jewish person will be extended hotel stay or medical care?

Why do you think existing flights skirt Saudi airspace in the first instance?

Try googling "Relationship between Saudi Arabia and Israel"

- Ameya

SCQ83 wrote:

killswitch13 wrote:

I don't think the Israelis will feel comfortable flying over saudi airspace especially in case of an emergency. Anyway does this route overfly Pak airspace or will it fly down to Gujarat and head further west ?

Why? Saudi is an ally of the US (such as Israel) and a relatively prosperous and civilised country. A diversion to JED or RUH would land in an airport comparable to a Western standard (at least when the new JED airport opens this year), with technical support for planes and, worst case scenario, Western hotels around in a safe environment (there are terror threats in Saudi, but not different than Western Europe or Israel today). Many Saudis have travelled abroad and crossed with Israelis, Jews and Haredim.

I suspect Pakistan and Afghanistan would be a very different story. Other than the lack of general security (e.g. the terrorist attack a few days ago to that hotel in Kabul), this is the kind of place where locals burn someone for sorcery or that kind of stuff. Not sure how happy the "local crowds" would feel knowing a few dozens of Israelis landed in their country.

I think you’re correct. Saudi Arabia, while hardly an ally of Israel, is coordinating security and political issues with Israel behind the scenes, along with Egypt.

This is from a recent New York Times article: “But now a de facto alliance against shared foes such as Iran, the Muslim Brotherhood, Islamic State militants and the Arab Spring uprisings is drawing the Arab leaders into an ever-closer collaboration with their one-time nemesis, Israel — producing especially stark juxtapositions between their posturing in public and private.”

I wouldn’t be surprised to see Saudi approval for Israeli overflights, but I’m sure they wouldn’t publicize it.

Here is the only source for this I have been able to find online: https://www.timesofindia.com/business/i ... 733098.cms

V/F

ytz wrote:

Is there that much traffic between DEL and TLV? Why not BOM-TLV?

You really don't need to ask the question. In terms of trade and traffic flows India is much more global than people here think. (On this forum there are a large number of immigrants to Anglophone countries who seem to think that every flight must be about them.) Whether AI or another airline can actually succeed is another matter entirely.

On this particular route, right now Aeroflot looks to be number one, supplanting Turkish Airlines. (Aeroflot actually doubled its flights to Delhi a few years ago from a single 330 to two 738s, but then upgauged the 738s to 330s.

Ethiopian Airlines carry a lot of the Israeli backpacker crowd.

People who want more of a safe name brand carrier, particularly in business class, tend to choose Lufthansa, maybe another Western European carrier, and they can charge some really high fares.

upwardfacing wrote:

ytz wrote:

Is there that much traffic between DEL and TLV? Why not BOM-TLV?

You really don't need to ask the question. In terms of trade and traffic flows India is much more global than people here think.

Not my intention to question India-Israel traffic. Just that city pair. Was wondering why they chose to fly out of DEL instead of BOM. Somebody explained above that LY already flies to BOM.

@ytz Sorry I did not mean to come across as brusque. It's just that this forum has been overwhelmed by immigrants and their VFR concerns, more so than earlier I think.

DEL-TLV would work primarily because of ties related to defence, national security, anti-terror co-operation, etc. Plus tourists, pilgrims, students, expats, etc. The only question is whether Israeli citizens working for their government or related businesses would be allowed or willing to fly Air India. This in turn would depend on the routing taken.

If you see my earlier post (#7), there is a linked Hindustan Times article that outlines three possible AI routings. In the past, I know anecdotally that Israelis working for those types of concerns were not allowed to fly either over the Arabian peninsula or Iran. Connecting at BOM was not popular at all, and the TLV-BOM route on LY is quite circuitous in the first place. As a result, Lufthansa was the carrier of choice. Again, anecdotally speaking.

Personally I don't think AI would have launched TLV if the KSA did not approve overflight rights. That's because other routings were considered way too long and expensive to operate. So my guess is that Israel and Kingdom co-operate under the radar, more so than earlier.

First time KSA allows flights to Israel over its soil, flight time from Tel Aviv to Delhi will be just 6 hours.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/in- ... -1.5803140

Any chance that flights between the 2 countries start?

In order to short the flight time, flights will have to also go over Oman, another country that doesn't have any relations with Israel.

And it will be interesting to see if El Al will follow and cut the way to India and Thiland on their flights. Might also help Arkia that has plans at those routes.

I can't see Oman being a problem (India is very close to Oman). As far as El Al, my guess it will not change their routings. When AI flew TLV-BOM, several countries, including Saudi, let AI fly over them to TLV. EL Al never received the ability. This is more a gesture to India (with a nod to Israel) than anything else. Saudi and Israel don't yet have diplomatic relations - hence no overflight. India has good relations with both. Allowing the AI flight doesn't really mean the Saudi's are doing Israel any favor. They are doing India a favor. I actually think the press shouldn't spin it as a thaw in Saudi/Israel relations (even if true) because it just stokes the Saudi public. It should just be about India and Saudi's relationship, period.

Could this be the first of other opportunities for either AI or another carrier to overfly Saudi Arabia to reach Israel? Good to finally see some progress there, but I won’t hold my breath on more to come anytime soon.

News from Times of India. No official confirmation from GoI

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 824841.cms

DaveFly wrote:

SCQ83 wrote:

killswitch13 wrote:

I don't think the Israelis will feel comfortable flying over saudi airspace especially in case of an emergency. Anyway does this route overfly Pak airspace or will it fly down to Gujarat and head further west ?

I wouldn’t be surprised to see Saudi approval for Israeli overflights, but I’m sure they wouldn’t publicize it.

You are correct. Looks like it is approved but no official confirmation from India or Saudi. See the news from Times of India

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 824841.cms

killswitch13 wrote:

I don't think the Israelis will feel comfortable flying over saudi airspace especially in case of an emergency. Anyway does this route overfly Pak airspace or will it fly down to Gujarat and head further west ?

Slightly off-topic but I do recall seeing a thread a few years back about a Saudi airliner making a landing in Tel Aviv due to a technical issue. There were even pictures of the plane on the tarmac. I think some sort of bi-lateral agreement must exist in order for this to happen.

I think this is a favor from KSA to India given the improving ties between two countries. Also it does not hurt behind the scene cooperation between KSA and Israel. I would give credit to the current Indian government for pulling this off.

There is no official confirmation of this from any country involved, just unnamed Air India officials. Saudi Arabia has denied giving approval (to Reuters and Bloomberg). It may be on, but it’s far from a sure thing.

tonyban wrote:

killswitch13 wrote:

I don't think the Israelis will feel comfortable flying over saudi airspace especially in case of an emergency. Anyway does this route overfly Pak airspace or will it fly down to Gujarat and head further west ?

Slightly off-topic but I do recall seeing a thread a few years back about a Saudi airliner making a landing in Tel Aviv due to a technical issue. There were even pictures of the plane on the tarmac. I think some sort of bi-lateral agreement must exist in order for this to happen.

It was an ex-Saudi A333 owned by HiFly.

Atlwarrior wrote:

No surprise a lot of Indians who are Christians and will visit Jerusalem.

Most Indian Christians who visit Israel/Jordan/Syria on pilgrimmage are from South India - the large & prosperous community of St.Thomas Christians is mainly based in the southern state of Kerala which is already well connected to the Middle East.

Anecdotal- Many STC families I know personally made the trip in the last few years on Kuwait Airways. COK-KWI, connecting onward to a port city in Egypt and from there by tourbus to Israel-Jordan & Syria, returning the same way. KU seems to have become a pretty popular option for these pilgrimmage flights, though I have no idea why. Pretty sucky airline.

The DEL-TLV routing seems designed for connecting traffic. AI is already attracting connecting traffic for its BKK flights from Europe.

I also hope the flight connects both ways to their Kulu flight - a single ATR72 right now. The people of "mini-Israel" would be very happy though I suspect Indian customs will be keeping a close watch!

If this is indeed true, it would be a complete breakthrough for India and Air India. I have said it before on this forum, but people do not give AI enough credit for pulling off diplomatic miracles. They pulled off an evacuation from Yemen, and this is another incredible feat. Finally, my partner is Israeli, and the ties between Israel and India are very very deep. Besides high tech, India is one of the top travel destinations for Israeli's post army as they feel safe there.

A huge win (if true), and continuos impressive work from AI's planning team.

Saludos,
Alex

I wonder if there is enough traffic to warrant sending a 788 though.

Perhaps its best to start with an A321 and then ramp up slowly to daily, followed by upgrade to 788?

Saudis deny providing authorization for Israeli flights to pass through airspace

Well, so much for that excitement...

BawliBooch wrote:

Perhaps its best to start with an A321 and then ramp up slowly to daily, followed by upgrade to 788?

With the Australia expansion music making the rounds, I wonder if they'll even have enough 787s to make this start happen. Maybe the NEO would even make sense....

If, of course, this flight does even happen.

CollegeAviator wrote:

Saudis deny providing authorization for Israeli flights to pass through airspace

Well, so much for that excitement...

According to GCMAPS, the most direct routing is over Pak-Afghanistan-Iran?


What is the regular airspace routing for this route? Can someone show on gcmap?

Really? An Israel bound aircraft that flies over Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iran? A "journalist" ought to know better.

BawliBooch wrote:

What is the regular airspace routing for this route?

See the map in this Haaretz article:

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/in- ... -1.5803140

There are a number of highly contradictory reports regarding the Saudi airspace matter, so it's best to wait for official launch to be sure.

It is, by the way, silly to question the sufficiency of the Delhi-Tel Aviv air travel market, as that type of sentiment echoes the plethora of ignorant America-based VFR enthusiasts from India here, who are often puzzled by most flights that do not involve their country, and who think that the rest of the world is merely a transfer point. Just do a search, even read this thread in more detail, and you will get an idea of the market.

unrave wrote:

Really? An Israel bound aircraft that flies over Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iran? A "journalist" ought to know better.

Plenty of Indian regd aircraft fly over Pakistan, Afghanistan & Iran. Israel bound aircraft may be subject to restrictions, but India may have a better chance of securing a routing through here given our good relations with Afghanistan & Iran than with Saudi Arabia.

What is your WhatsApp network saying @unrave?

BawliBooch wrote:

unrave wrote:

Really? An Israel bound aircraft that flies over Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iran? A "journalist" ought to know better.

Plenty of Indian regd aircraft fly over Pakistan, Afghanistan & Iran. Israel bound aircraft may be subject to restrictions, but India may have a better chance of securing a routing through here given our good relations with Afghanistan & Iran than with Saudi Arabia.

What is your WhatsApp network saying @unrave?

It was reported that indeed Air India did apply for that route but were turned down by the Israeli regulator for obvious reasons involving the safety of Israeli passengers on the flights.

killswitch13 wrote:

I don't think the Israelis will feel comfortable flying over saudi airspace especially in case of an emergency. Anyway does this route overfly Pak airspace or will it fly down to Gujarat and head further west ?

Why? Flights of Royal Jordanian, Turkish Airlines, UIA and other airlines are packed with Israelis flying over arab countries to the far east.

BawliBooch wrote:

Plenty of Indian regd aircraft fly over Pakistan, Afghanistan & Iran.

Yes, of course they do, and I did not claim otherwise. Thanks for being the master of obvious, but they don't fly to Israel, which is what is being discussed here.

Israel bound aircraft may be subject to restrictions

Yes, that is what I am alluding do. Glad you were able to pick that.

but India may have a better chance of securing a routing through here given our good relations with Afghanistan & Iran than with Saudi Arabia.

Someone with even the most rudimentary understanding of the Middle East would know that Israel - Saudi Arbaian relations are relatively more amicable than Israeli - Iranian relations could ever be.

I was under the impression that only economics was tough for JNU sloganeers to understand. Looks like geopolitics is beyond them as well.

Now to dumb it down further, this is the GC route from HKG-TLV:


And this is the flight path of CX675 (HKG-TLV) yesterday:


Indian journalists

http://aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/riyadh-allows-air-india-to-use-space-for-israel-flights/1056978

Can someone confirm if this is really happening? According to the article, Air India will be allowed to use Saudi airspace on flights to Israel. It does not say why this is specific to Air India nor does it say what the decision was based on. I would love for this to be true, but I am a little bit skeptical since the article does not give a lot of information. I would also love to see the Saudis open the airspace to all flights to and from Israel and hopefully everyone in the region can follow their lead....

Cheers,
Hekk

There was an official Saudi announcement indicating that this was an untrue rumor. I don't have a link since I saw this on live television, but it was clearly reported that no flights to Israel would be allowed over Saudi airspace. I wouldn't be surprised, however, if they backtracked and later gave AI permission.

That being said, is it enough for Saudi to open its airspace? The Persian Gulf looks very difficult to maneuver without touching the airspace of other Arab countries. Not to mention Iran.