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Wynnster8
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Will Hawaii see Flights to Europe?

Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:07 pm

Will Hawaii see Flights to Europe?

I don't remember when, But there was before.
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devron
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Re: Will Hawaii see Flights to Europe?

Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:14 pm

discussed 4 months ago viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1374205

But the answer is yes WOW with a a321
 
jeffrey1970
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Re: Will Hawaii see Flights to Europe?

Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:37 pm

I thought Condor and Edlewies were also going to fly there?
God bless through Jesus, Jeff
 
ADrum23
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Re: Will Hawaii see Flights to Europe?

Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:40 pm

devron wrote:
discussed 4 months ago viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1374205

But the answer is yes WOW with a a321


KEF is too far for a A321.
 
Chemist
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Re: Will Hawaii see Flights to Europe?

Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:34 am

Given the low demand, I don't see why a one stop in LAX or SFO from Europe isn't good enough.
 
ilovepabst
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Re: Will Hawaii see Flights to Europe?

Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:39 am

What about Jacksonville to Hawaii?
 
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FA9295
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Re: Will Hawaii see Flights to Europe?

Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:11 am

ilovepabst wrote:
What about Jacksonville to Hawaii?


Ha! Nice joke there... Fat chance... ;)
 
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Re: Will Hawaii see Flights to Europe?

Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:03 am

Please stick to the topic. For those commenting on previous threads it would be helpful if you linked them in, the thread starter has asked a question and it would be more constructive to actually answer the question. For those who have made commentary about previous discussions on this topic and have made rather unhelpful and disrespectful comments either contribute to the topic as per the rules of this site or move on to the next topic
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HAL
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Re: Will Hawaii see Flights to Europe?

Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:13 am

Wynnster8 wrote:
Will Hawaii see Flights to Europe?


I know HA is looking seriously at the idea. They're still working on a plan for the follow-on to the A330, and Europe is part of that plan. Whether they go with the 330NEO, the 350-900 or 787 remains to be seen. It will be a balance between additional longer-range flights and cost to the company. They want to extend further into Asia & Australia (BKK, PVG, HKG, PER etc.) as well as going to Europe so that will factor into the decision as well.

HAL
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Will Hawaii see Flights to Europe?

Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:45 am

If one can go to the Canaries, the Balerics, or the Med in a few hours, why on a Earth would they fly for 16 hours to Hawaii? Heck, Havana or Miami are better than Waikiki.

Plus, I’d bet it is not possible on many days due to ETP considerations. The GC route, LHR-HNL, passes just east of Anchorage at ~6500nm, 15+50 at 460 knots average ground speed. That’s about a -35 knot wind. It’s 2400nm from HNL-ANC, so figure a 3+20 flight time at 10,000’ depressurization altitude (360 knot GS) from the ETP to either HNL or ANC. YVR is possible but further distance. Remember, west coast to Hawaii is the longest commonly used route without a divert.
 
77H
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Re: Will Hawaii see Flights to Europe?

Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:23 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
If one can go to the Canaries, the Balerics, or the Med in a few hours, why on a Earth would they fly for 16 hours to Hawaii? Heck, Havana or Miami are better than Waikiki.

Plus, I’d bet it is not possible on many days due to ETP considerations. The GC route, LHR-HNL, passes just east of Anchorage at ~6500nm, 15+50 at 460 knots average ground speed. That’s about a -35 knot wind. It’s 2400nm from HNL-ANC, so figure a 3+20 flight time at 10,000’ depressurization altitude (360 knot GS) from the ETP to either HNL or ANC. YVR is possible but further distance. Remember, west coast to Hawaii is the longest commonly used route without a divert.


Well Galaxy, why don’t you ask the hundreds, if not thousands of Europeans currently visiting the Hawaiian Islands.

If I had to guess, those Europeans have already been to the Canaries, Balerics and the Mediterranean and are looking for a new experience. If you’re looking to go out to dinner do you only eat at the closest restaurant to your home? I’m sure you have eaten there but I suspect you venture further out for a different experience.

77H
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Will Hawaii see Flights to Europe?

Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:32 am

Maybe because I’ve been often enough to know it’s LA with hula dancers. “Hundreds, if not thousands” of vacationers do not a 16+hour route make. That said, 142,000 out of 450 million isn’t enough to justify very expensive operating costs for VFR low-yield traffic.

GF
 
blueheronNC
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Re: Will Hawaii see Flights to Europe?

Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:41 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Maybe because I’ve been often enough to know it’s LA with hula dancers. “Hundreds, if not thousands” of vacationers do not a 16+hour route make. That said, 142,000 out of 450 million isn’t enough to justify very expensive operating costs for VFR low-yield traffic.

GF


Doesn't sound like you've been to Kauai, Big Island, or Lanai. Europeans visiting Hawaii don't have to stick around Honolulu/Waikiki or even Oahu just because that's where the nonstop flight would put them...
 
DarthLobster
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Re: Will Hawaii see Flights to Europe?

Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:45 am

Maybe once SpaceX's BFR starts doing suborbital flights...
 
77H
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Re: Will Hawaii see Flights to Europe?

Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:49 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Maybe because I’ve been often enough to know it’s LA with hula dancers. “Hundreds, if not thousands” of vacationers do not a 16+hour route make. That said, 142,000 out of 450 million isn’t enough to justify very expensive operating costs for VFR low-yield traffic.

GF


I did not once make the claim that a Europe-Hawaii nonstop would be viable. I simply pointed out that Europeans do travel to Hawaii and not in insignificant numbers.

There are plenty of 1 stops from Europe to Hawaii via the US or even Canada. That said, nonstop flights can and do stimulate demand. Somehow, a destination doesn’t seem so far out of reach if one only has to take a single flight regardless of flight time.

77H
 
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Re: Will Hawaii see Flights to Europe?

Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:07 am

Could anyone knowledgeable, comment on my first point about range and ETPS. Is the route operationally possible?

And I pointed out, it might not be possible, even if it proved economically viable. I’m not gainsaying Europeans go, just not in numbers that would justify flights. Yes, I’ve been to Big Island, Maui, and Oahu a number of times, on trips I do admit. Wouldn’t consider the 11-hour flight time spending my money on when so many better places are closer, like the ones I mentioned.

GF
 
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Re: Will Hawaii see Flights to Europe?

Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:22 am

ADrum23 wrote:
devron wrote:
discussed 4 months ago viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1374205

But the answer is yes WOW with a a321


KEF is too far for a A321.

if Lax is with a neo, the neo LR should be enough in WW's books :D
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Re: Will Hawaii see Flights to Europe?

Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:37 am

This question is asked at least once every month i swear!
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Re: Will Hawaii see Flights to Europe?

Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:42 am

Perhaps not year-round, but summer seasonal should be feasible today. We'll see whwn HA gets the A330neo. They IMO would be better positioned to serve HNL to London as they'd be able to feed the inter-island network, here fore more options for customers. Norwegian (the second best suited) wouldn't have much European feed to make it work except from maybe Oslo.
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Re: Will Hawaii see Flights to Europe?

Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:18 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Could anyone knowledgeable, comment on my first point about range and ETPS. Is the route operationally possible?

And I pointed out, it might not be possible, even if it proved economically viable. I’m not gainsaying Europeans go, just not in numbers that would justify flights. Yes, I’ve been to Big Island, Maui, and Oahu a number of times, on trips I do admit. Wouldn’t consider the 11-hour flight time spending my money on when so many better places are closer, like the ones I mentioned.

GF

AS already fly ANC-HNL
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TheLion
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Re: Will Hawaii see Flights to Europe?

Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:13 am

qf789 wrote:
Please stick to the topic. For those commenting on previous threads it would be helpful if you linked them in, the thread starter has asked a question and it would be more constructive to actually answer the question. For those who have made commentary about previous discussions on this topic and have made rather unhelpful and disrespectful comments either contribute to the topic as per the rules of this site or move on to the next topic


Seriously? Cheer up will you. They’re only making light hearted jokes. Can we not have inoffensive banter now on this forum?

It seems you’re going after the wrong posters. There are plenty more who do write inflammatory and unnecessary comments or replies.
 
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Carlos01
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Re: Will Hawaii see Flights to Europe?

Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:24 am

I always thought a route from HEL to HNL is a completely unexploited opportunity for Finnair. Directly over the North Pole, it's actually less than 6000nm! The impact of Jetstream would be almost non-existent, you could do this with a fully crammed A350 in 12 hours, give or take. Feeder traffic from everywhere in Europe. No need to add any more traffic over north America.

Departure from HEL at noon, arrival in HNL at noon the same day. Departure from HNL at noon, arrival in HEL at noon the next day. Convenient for passengers and airports, both ends in the middle of the day outside of traffic peaks.

This would also give the Hawaii residents a direct access to Europe, wouldn't have to fly via NA or Asia.

Do we have a winner here?
 
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CARST
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Re: Will Hawaii see Flights to Europe?

Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:35 am

Wynnster8 wrote:
Will Hawaii see Flights to Europe?

I don't remember when, But there was before.


The route could have been started with most longhaul aircraft around. It could have been flown since the 747SP entered service. Later 744s, A340s, they all could have flown the route from Europe to Hawaii non-stop.

This are 6,292nm with an air-time of 13:12 hours.

That is about in the ballpark of LHR - EZE with 6,000nm and an air-time of 12:36 hours.

The currently longest route flown is DOH-AKL-DOH by QR with a 777-200LR with 7,849nm and an air-time of 16:28 hours.

And because someone brought it up, the A321LR will struggle from KEF, the route has 5,288nm with an air-time of 11:06 hours.

All distances and times from GCmap: http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=LON-HNL%0D ... 83&SU=mach


I guess the reason why no airline tried to operate the route non-stop is that it is an extremely low-yield route with 99% of the seats filled by tourists. No VFR traffic and no large natural O&D market with just unimportant business ties. Both Hawaiin and Condor have annouced they would like to start the route with new aircraft, but I'm pessimistic about this route. I'm not sure if the few tourists doing luxury holidays on the smaller islands are enough to make this non-stop route viable.
 
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Re: Will Hawaii see Flights to Europe?

Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:19 am

I believe that ll hinges on the actual length of the flight. 16+ flights are not rare but the business case for them are very demanding. But, having said that, it might be an idea for an A333, for example to fly to Europe form Hawaii with a stop-over either in NYC or somewhere else on the West Coast and then following on provided it can take passengers on their stop. That would be something for the likes of Virgin, American, Delta, etc. to maybe explore. I am not sure Hawaiian would be able to.
 
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Re: Will Hawaii see Flights to Europe?

Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:32 am

77H wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
If one can go to the Canaries, the Balerics, or the Med in a few hours, why on a Earth would they fly for 16 hours to Hawaii? Heck, Havana or Miami are better than Waikiki.

Plus, I’d bet it is not possible on many days due to ETP considerations. The GC route, LHR-HNL, passes just east of Anchorage at ~6500nm, 15+50 at 460 knots average ground speed. That’s about a -35 knot wind. It’s 2400nm from HNL-ANC, so figure a 3+20 flight time at 10,000’ depressurization altitude (360 knot GS) from the ETP to either HNL or ANC. YVR is possible but further distance. Remember, west coast to Hawaii is the longest commonly used route without a divert.


Well Galaxy, why don’t you ask the hundreds, if not thousands of Europeans currently visiting the Hawaiian Islands.

If I had to guess, those Europeans have already been to the Canaries, Balerics and the Mediterranean and are looking for a new experience. If you’re looking to go out to dinner do you only eat at the closest restaurant to your home? I’m sure you have eaten there but I suspect you venture further out for a different experience.

77H


Personally I would never go there in such a long n posibly expensive journey. Moreover Balearics,Canaries....add the Caribbean which is cheaper n shorter...
Don’t see the traffic there n as said before u can stop inI Lax or SFO from many cities in Europe..
 
richcandy
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Re: Will Hawaii see Flights to Europe?

Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:45 am

I "think" Hawaii for most europeans is part of a multi destination trip to the States. In other words most Europeans who visit Hawaii will also spend time in mainland USA before or after Hawaii.

Years ago people said that a direct LON-LAS would never work and it clearly does. So who know maybe. But it might be more popular if it was operated by an airline that flew to Europe from say LAX, SFO etc so that passengers could create multi sector itineraries rather than as a stand alone Europe to HNL service.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Will Hawaii see Flights to Europe?

Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:54 am

It is a hard business case for many reasons.

There is little business traffic, it is most likely not a year round route and many European Tourists usually combine 1 or 2 weeks of California with one week Hawaii.
 
ilari
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Re: Will Hawaii see Flights to Europe?

Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:07 am

Carlos01 wrote:
I always thought a route from HEL to HNL is a completely unexploited opportunity for Finnair. Directly over the North Pole, it's actually less than 6000nm! The impact of Jetstream would be almost non-existent, you could do this with a fully crammed A350 in 12 hours, give or take. Feeder traffic from everywhere in Europe. No need to add any more traffic over north America.

Departure from HEL at noon, arrival in HNL at noon the same day. Departure from HNL at noon, arrival in HEL at noon the next day. Convenient for passengers and airports, both ends in the middle of the day outside of traffic peaks.

This would also give the Hawaii residents a direct access to Europe, wouldn't have to fly via NA or Asia.

Do we have a winner here?


So you would have the ac standing there for 24 hours? Very profitable... Anyway, I have never actually thought about US states that don't have traffic to Europe. Any others?
 
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Carlos01
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Re: Will Hawaii see Flights to Europe?

Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:10 am

ilari wrote:
So you would have the ac standing there for 24 hours? Very profitable...


*sigh*

Yes of course that's what I meant.
 
gunnerman
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Re: Will Hawaii see Flights to Europe?

Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:01 pm

Jomar777 wrote:
I believe that ll hinges on the actual length of the flight. 16+ flights are not rare but the business case for them are very demanding. But, having said that, it might be an idea for an A333, for example to fly to Europe form Hawaii with a stop-over either in NYC or somewhere else on the West Coast and then following on provided it can take passengers on their stop. That would be something for the likes of Virgin, American, Delta, etc. to maybe explore. I am not sure Hawaiian would be able to.

No European carrier would fly to Hawaii via a US airport such as LAX or JFK as they won't get cabotage from the US government.
 
32andBelow
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Re: Will Hawaii see Flights to Europe?

Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:10 pm

Chemist wrote:
Given the low demand, I don't see why a one stop in LAX or SFO from Europe isn't good enough.

You could one stop in any major city in the USA air western Canada for Hawaii.
 
26point2
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Re: Will Hawaii see Flights to Europe?

Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:33 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
If one can go to the Canaries, the Balerics, or the Med in a few hours, why on a Earth would they fly for 16 hours to Hawaii? Heck, Havana or Miami are better than Waikiki.


Hawaii has much more to offer than Waikiki. I suggest you try something different next time you go. That’s like saying “I don’t like California...I’ve been to L.A so I know all about it”.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Will Hawaii see Flights to Europe?

Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:43 pm

richcandy wrote:
I "think" Hawaii for most europeans is part of a multi destination trip to the States. In other words most Europeans who visit Hawaii will also spend time in mainland USA before or after Hawaii.

Years ago people said that a direct LON-LAS would never work and it clearly does. So who know maybe. But it might be more popular if it was operated by an airline that flew to Europe from say LAX, SFO etc so that passengers could create multi sector itineraries rather than as a stand alone Europe to HNL service.


To be fair, Vegas actually offered something that you can't find in Europe (the only place that come close to what Vegas offered is Macau, and even then, it doesn't feel the same).

Hawaii? You got close by destinations like Canaries or Greece, then further you got Caribbean and SE Asia/Maldives, or even Seychelles.

As I have always said - instead of focusing on Europe, you don't even see flights from, let say, IND or MCI or AUS to Hawaii. There are zero flights to non-hub cities to Hawaii east of the Rockies anyway.
 
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Re: Will Hawaii see Flights to Europe?

Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:28 pm

I've mentioned HNL as a possible Icelandair route before and only half-jokingly. I think that if there is a European airline that can make it work, Icelandair is a strong contender. KEF is 2-3 hours closer to HNL than most of Europe so the economics of the route are somewhat more favorable than they would be from continental Europe. Other posters have rightfully pointed out that Hawaii is a marginal destination from Europe as Europeans have plenty of (cheap) beach options closer by. What little demand there is can be funneled from entire Western Europe through the hub in KEF to fill a 767 a 2-3 times per week. I assume there is some demand in the other direction as well, Hawaiians who want to visit Europe.

Of course there is also WOW air that is based at KEF but their A330s are probably oversized for such a route and way too expensive to keep parked for hours in Hawaii. Let's not even start entertaining the notion of 12 hours on a A321...

As has been explained dozens of times on this site, Icelandair keeps its planes on the ground for 20 hours or more at many of their farthest destinations in North America in order to time the return flight correctly to hit the connecting bank at KEF. They can afford to this because these are old 757s that have been bought and paid for a long time ago. By starting SFO this spring, Icelandair are showing that they are willing to do the same with a 767 and have presumably concluded that this would be a cost-effective use of that airframe. If they can do SFO and leave a 767 on the ground there for 20 hours, could they not go three hours further to Hawaii and leave it parked there for 13 hours? Another perk of these long stays on the ground is that the same crew can do the return flight after resting. What I don't know because I am not familiar with the relevant regulations is if 13 hours on the ground is a sufficient rest period for the same crew to head back to KEF.

Then there is also Icelandair's partnership with Alaska. Alaska has some presence in HNL so I guess there might be some Hawaiians that might be tempted to earn/spend Alaska miles with Icelandair.
 
Passedv1
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Re: Will Hawaii see Flights to Europe?

Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:52 pm

Eventually, Europe-Hawaii will be the “next best option” for an airline. HA has stated that it is in it’s long term vision to eventually go to Hawaii. They just have other, more profitable opportunities. In the past you had to do the route with a 747 or 777 making the numbers tough. 787 or perhaps an ER version of the 797 might make this possible.

"What we always say about Europe is we do have the ambition that we could, one day, fly to Europe," Dunkerley explained. "There's no point in us contemplating European service until we have an aircraft that is capable of flying the 15 hours non-stop between the Hawaiian Islands and points in

Europe."http://www.businessinsider.com/hawaiian-airlines-ceo-says-asia-growth-opportunity-2018-1

As far as capability goes, the shortest one stop US-hub from Europe would be SEA. According to Great Circle Mapper, LHR-HNL = 6,289 so airplane capability is not the issue. That being said, LHR-SEA-HNL is 6,498 so you are only saving about 45 minutes on a 14-15 hour flight.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Will Hawaii see Flights to Europe?

Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:35 pm

26point2 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
If one can go to the Canaries, the Balerics, or the Med in a few hours, why on a Earth would they fly for 16 hours to Hawaii? Heck, Havana or Miami are better than Waikiki.


Hawaii has much more to offer than Waikiki. I suggest you try something different next time you go. That’s like saying “I don’t like California...I’ve been to L.A so I know all about it”.


You might note California is a whole lot bigger than Hawaii.

GF
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Will Hawaii see Flights to Europe?

Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:40 pm

As far as capability goes, the shortest one stop US-hub from Europe would be SEA. According to Great Circle Mapper, LHR-HNL = 6,289 so airplane capability is not the issue. That being said, LHR-SEA-HNL is 6,498 so you are only saving about 45 minutes on a 14-15 hour flight.


The problem isn’t range, it’s can the selected type fly about 12 hours; lose an engine, descend to best OEI level at selected ETOPS speed or; lose pressurization and divert at 10,000’; or have both happen and divert OEI at 10,000’. It’s about 3+20 minutes at a very non-optimal level. This is much more challenging than just the range. I doubt any 767 can do that. Remember flights that spend the last 3-4 hours of a 16-hour flight are over land with many nearby diversions for these failure cases; not so enroute to HNL.

GF
 
777PHX
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Re: Will Hawaii see Flights to Europe?

Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:45 pm

qf789 wrote:
Please stick to the topic. For those commenting on previous threads it would be helpful if you linked them in, the thread starter has asked a question and it would be more constructive to actually answer the question. For those who have made commentary about previous discussions on this topic and have made rather unhelpful and disrespectful comments either contribute to the topic as per the rules of this site or move on to the next topic


It blows my mind that you delete my fairly harmless posts but then you let garbage like this remain:

Busyboy2 wrote:
Why bother? Hawaii sucks and the locals hate outsiders. Besides, the English, Dutch,Germans and Irish are just as happy in Malta, Mykonos, Lacarna and Ibiza. EU-Hawaii is all Leisure. No money there.


I criticized the number of times a post is made on this website which is apparently a no-no, but this guy can go ahead and malign an entire ethnicity and that's kosher.

You're doing a great job as a mod. Keep up the good work.
 
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qf789
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Re: Will Hawaii see Flights to Europe?

Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:54 pm

777PHX wrote:
qf789 wrote:
Please stick to the topic. For those commenting on previous threads it would be helpful if you linked them in, the thread starter has asked a question and it would be more constructive to actually answer the question. For those who have made commentary about previous discussions on this topic and have made rather unhelpful and disrespectful comments either contribute to the topic as per the rules of this site or move on to the next topic


It blows my mind that you delete my fairly harmless posts but then you let garbage like this remain:

Busyboy2 wrote:
Why bother? Hawaii sucks and the locals hate outsiders. Besides, the English, Dutch,Germans and Irish are just as happy in Malta, Mykonos, Lacarna and Ibiza. EU-Hawaii is all Leisure. No money there.


I criticized the number of times a post is made on this website which is apparently a no-no, but this guy can go ahead and malign an entire ethnicity and that's kosher.

You're doing a great job as a mod. Keep up the good work.


Your post was deleted as a reference post, any post that is deleted any othe rposts quoting that are also deleted for housekeeping purposes. The other post you bring up has been attended to now, if there is a post violating rules please use the report this post feature so we can get onto straight away
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Aptivaboy
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Re: Will Hawaii see Flights to Europe?

Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:00 pm

Anecdotally, judging from the number of Europeans I see in Hawaii every year, I definitely think such a route is viable, but probably not in large numbers. The key issue, as others have pointed out, is the trip length. Many Europeans visiting Hawaii do so as part of a trip, say a week on the West Coast, visit the Tragic Kingdom, etc., then a week in Hawaii, and back again. This breaks up the trip and doesn't subject them to a Godawfully long flight. Again, this is anecdotal from the Europeans I've encountered in my reasonably regular Hawaii runs. I would imagine that such a route would be profitable, but again probably low frequency which begs the question: profitable, but profitable enough? Airlines might realize more profit running their metal on other routes.
 
N415XJ
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Re: Will Hawaii see Flights to Europe?

Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:22 pm

Just so we can throw some actual numbers into the conversation:
http://www.hawaiitourismauthority.org/r ... ighlights/

Europe: Total visitor arrivals from the United Kingdom, France, Germany, Italy and Switzerland
declined in 2017 (-2.9% to 139,780) and was flat (-0.3% to 10,639) in December year-over-year.


I'm not sure if that number includes all Europeans, or only those who went through immigration in the islands (i.e. after connecting from Asia, Australia, or Canada). Still, ~140,000 people in a year really isn't that much. Maybe if Airbus comes out with an A321NEOSuperUltraLR capable of flying all the way from HNL to Europe the route might be viable, but beyond that I'm not holding my breath.
 
benbeny
Posts: 240
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 1:44 pm

Re: Will Hawaii see Flights to Europe?

Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:52 pm

Everytime I read about Hawaii it seems that people pointing it as islands in the middle of nowhere. In reality though, I think with Hawaii as a gateway to other more exotic Pacific islands, the money is there. It might be not much, but if they manage to have direct flight to more remote areas in Pacific, I think it will end up as a tourist destination. Not in a short time, but who knows what will happen in next 5-10 years.
 
Route66
Posts: 203
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:47 pm

Re: Will Hawaii see Flights to Europe?

Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:57 pm

N415XJ wrote:
Just so we can throw some actual numbers into the conversation:
http://www.hawaiitourismauthority.org/r ... ighlights/

Europe: Total visitor arrivals from the United Kingdom, France, Germany, Italy and Switzerland
declined in 2017 (-2.9% to 139,780) and was flat (-0.3% to 10,639) in December year-over-year.


I'm not sure if that number includes all Europeans, or only those who went through immigration in the islands (i.e. after connecting from Asia, Australia, or Canada). Still, ~140,000 people in a year really isn't that much. Maybe if Airbus comes out with an A321NEOSuperUltraLR capable of flying all the way from HNL to Europe the route might be viable, but beyond that I'm not holding my breath.


I was going to mention that that number is less than impressive when you consider Phuket alone could have that many Europeans at any one time. Just as a comparison

Then I discovered China marched 10 million people through Thailand in 2017. Who knew? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism_i ... ationality
 
User avatar
mercure1
Posts: 4884
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:13 am

Re: Will Hawaii see Flights to Europe?

Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:03 pm

So many reasons why its a marginal case at best.

The distance, pricing(incl hotels), its not a natural nor historically tied market from Europe, etc.

Also in my 30-years of aviation, I have not once met a European that went to Hawaii as their sole intended destination. Only people I know that have been there are either as part of a broader journey to US West Coast, or a stop on around-the-world itineraries.
mercure f-wtcc
 
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HELyes
Posts: 1637
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 4:26 am

Re: Will Hawaii see Flights to Europe?

Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:45 pm

Carlos01 wrote:
I always thought a route from HEL to HNL is a completely unexploited opportunity for Finnair. Directly over the North Pole, it's actually less than 6000nm! The impact of Jetstream would be almost non-existent, you could do this with a fully crammed A350 in 12 hours, give or take. Feeder traffic from everywhere in Europe. No need to add any more traffic over north America.

Departure from HEL at noon, arrival in HNL at noon the same day. Departure from HNL at noon, arrival in HEL at noon the next day. Convenient for passengers and airports, both ends in the middle of the day outside of traffic peaks.

This would also give the Hawaii residents a direct access to Europe, wouldn't have to fly via NA or Asia.

Do we have a winner here?


Perhaps HNL could work like Pacific Puerto Vallerta PVR (5,386 nm) that Finnair opened this winter, once a week service with A350. Passengers on a package holiday are the core of this business model, don't know how well this would work with Hawaii.
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 3568
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: Will Hawaii see Flights to Europe?

Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:08 pm

Route66 wrote:
N415XJ wrote:
Just so we can throw some actual numbers into the conversation:
http://www.hawaiitourismauthority.org/r ... ighlights/

Europe: Total visitor arrivals from the United Kingdom, France, Germany, Italy and Switzerland
declined in 2017 (-2.9% to 139,780) and was flat (-0.3% to 10,639) in December year-over-year.


I'm not sure if that number includes all Europeans, or only those who went through immigration in the islands (i.e. after connecting from Asia, Australia, or Canada). Still, ~140,000 people in a year really isn't that much. Maybe if Airbus comes out with an A321NEOSuperUltraLR capable of flying all the way from HNL to Europe the route might be viable, but beyond that I'm not holding my breath.


I was going to mention that that number is less than impressive when you consider Phuket alone could have that many Europeans at any one time. Just as a comparison

Then I discovered China marched 10 million people through Thailand in 2017. Who knew? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism_i ... ationality


Have you look at the number of Chinese cities with flights to HKT? And it's only growing. If you really calculate the number, though, it's not THAT many Chinese :rotfl: (China has 20x the population of UK after all).

More to the point, though, there are 1M visitors from UK ALONE to Thailand last year. 850k Germans, and 740k French. Meanwhile, you add in all the countries for Hawaii and you're still only at 1/8th of Brits ALONE going to Thailand.

Ultimately, about the only thing I would expect in short term would be 1 or 2 charter flights on the like of TUI. Even that's really stretching it anyway.
 
HIA350
Posts: 87
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 7:51 pm

Re: Will Hawaii see Flights to Europe?

Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:32 pm

ADrum23 wrote:
devron wrote:
discussed 4 months ago viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1374205

But the answer is yes WOW with a a321


KEF is too far for a A321.


add 9 to a321 lol
a330
 
ericalexandre76
Posts: 31
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:25 pm

Re: Will Hawaii see Flights to Europe?

Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:21 pm

Europeans go to Thailand because there usually are direct non-stop flights from most major European cities to Bangkok. If Honolulu had direct non-stop flights to European cities, while the distance is still a bit longer, perhaps there would be more Europeans willing to fly to Hawaii. And the business model can't be all that different to Thailand, mostly vacation-goers.

And also Hawaii does have quite a lot to offer that those beach destinations closer to Europe don't, so if one has been to those nearby destinations why not check out Hawaii? Just steer clear of Waikiki in my humble opinion.

And those are my $0.02 on the topic, Mahalo :)
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 3568
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: Will Hawaii see Flights to Europe?

Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:50 pm

ericalexandre76 wrote:
Europeans go to Thailand because there usually are direct non-stop flights from most major European cities to Bangkok. If Honolulu had direct non-stop flights to European cities, while the distance is still a bit longer, perhaps there would be more Europeans willing to fly to Hawaii. And the business model can't be all that different to Thailand, mostly vacation-goers.

And also Hawaii does have quite a lot to offer that those beach destinations closer to Europe don't, so if one has been to those nearby destinations why not check out Hawaii? Just steer clear of Waikiki in my humble opinion.

And those are my $0.02 on the topic, Mahalo :)


Keep in mind, for the most part, Thailand is a relatively cheap place for vacation, while Hawaii is anything but. And the lack of non-stop haven't stop European from going to Bali in Indonesia (although Aussies/Kiwis still dominates there, along with, of course, Chinese tourists that are everywhere except Guam or Hawaii :scratchchin: :scratchchin: )
 
SurlyBonds
Posts: 406
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:24 am

Re: Will Hawaii see Flights to Europe?

Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:57 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
If one can go to the Canaries, the Balerics, or the Med in a few hours, why on a Earth would they fly for 16 hours to Hawaii? Heck, Havana or Miami are better than Waikiki.


If one can go to the Canaries, the Balerics, or the Med in a few hours, why on [this] Earth would they fly for 16 hours (OK, 14) to Bangkok?

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