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PatrickZ80
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Re: Lufthansa fires Brussels Airlines CEO & CFO since they didn't want to change SN into an LCC

Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:40 am

marcelh wrote:
There are already broader European brands. Ryanair, EasyJet, WizzAir and Norwegian employ people from all countries in the EU.


True, but they're not flag carriers. Brussels Airlines is a flag carrier, that makes a difference. Turning a flag carrier into a non-flag carrier is a huge mistake. In most countries the airlines you mentioned are a niche, they're not the main thing. Eurowings is a niche as well, a nice addition to Brussels Airlines but no replacement for it.

Besides, it's not about from which countries you employ people. Flag carriers employ people from outside their own country too, that's nothing new. It's about what country you represent as an airline, certainly as a flag carrier. You're the main thing in your country, other airlines look up to you. You don't let that slip away to become a niche.
 
Jalap
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Re: Lufthansa fires Brussels Airlines CEO & CFO since they didn't want to change SN into an LCC

Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:03 am

I thought Brussels is a premium-heavy destination. How does it make sense change the brand of its main airline to an airline with the image of an LCC?
Brussels is well served by other airlines with a better image than Eurowings. Surely you'll surrender a fair portion of your premium customers to competing airlines? They won't fly an LCC and they won't transfer through FRA.
 
Conti764
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Re: Lufthansa fires Brussels Airlines CEO & CFO since they didn't want to change SN into an LCC

Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:04 am

I have never trusted LH in the frist place. Like I've always thought, there was no reason for LH to take over SN but to eliminate (future) competition and fence off their backyard. Untill the LH takeover SN was leaning heavily towards the OW-group (AA, BA,...)

I have been saying for years that LH will one day exterminate Brussels Airlines in favor of it's bland, ugly pet project Eurowings.

Time for BRU to reconsider its position towards Air Belgium, try to lure them away from CRL and into BRU and see where it goes from there. Maybe AB could develop into a new sort of SN and, accept for their Chinese business plan also start developing a European network. So Belgian authorities could strip SN of their African rights and transfer them to AB. After all, SN's African network can only work with Belgian African bilaterals and they stay Belgian...

After all, there is not much risk from such endeavour. According to Belgian media, BRU is about to loose all SN's intercontinental traffic in favor of FRA and BRU would be degraded to a feeder airport for EW...
 
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cougar15
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Re: Lufthansa fires Brussels Airlines CEO & CFO since they didn't want to change SN into an LCC

Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:10 am

Conti764 wrote:
I have never trusted LH in the frist place. Like I've always thought, there was no reason for LH to take over SN but to eliminate (future) competition and fence off their backyard. Untill the LH takeover SN was leaning heavily towards the OW-group (AA, BA,...)

I have been saying for years that LH will one day exterminate Brussels Airlines in favor of it's bland, ugly pet project Eurowings.

Time for BRU to reconsider its position towards Air Belgium, try to lure them away from CRL and into BRU and see where it goes from there. Maybe AB could develop into a new sort of SN and, accept for their Chinese business plan also start developing a European network. So Belgian authorities could strip SN of their African rights and transfer them to AB. After all, SN's African network can only work with Belgian African bilaterals and they stay Belgian...

After all, there is not much risk from such endeavour. According to Belgian media, BRU is about to loose all SN's intercontinental traffic in favor of FRA and BRU would be degraded to a feeder airport for EW...


So you would rather see Air Belgium (if it ever takes off); with a CEO that use to run TNT Airways (and we all know what happened there......) and CHINESE Investors taking away the priced routes and Belgian traffic rights? YES; SN was turned by Gaston, but at what price, only by flying the absolute oldest A330´s to grace the sky. Where is the future in that? How real was the perceived turnaround and how big is the investment burden the next 5-10 years will require. Would SN be able to stem these costs alone from the profits they are/were making? I fear not.....
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Scorpio
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Re: Lufthansa fires Brussels Airlines CEO & CFO since they didn't want to change SN into an LCC

Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:15 am

Conti764 wrote:
According to Belgian media, BRU is about to loose all SN's intercontinental traffic in favor of FRA and BRU would be degraded to a feeder airport for EW...

Belgian media know about as much about aviation as the non-specialist media in other countries, i.e. not muc at all. LH can't just move all of SN's intercontinental flights to FRA, because especially the African flights are subject to traffic rights and bilaterals between Belgium and the countries in question. These are bilateral about flight to Belgium, not Germany.
 
Jalap
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Re: Lufthansa fires Brussels Airlines CEO & CFO since they didn't want to change SN into an LCC

Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:21 am

Conti764 wrote:
Time for BRU to reconsider its position towards Air Belgium

Air Belgium is a joke.
It would make more sense to look at VLM :)
 
parapente
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Re: Lufthansa fires Brussels Airlines CEO & CFO since they didn't want to change SN into an LCC

Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:40 am

This issue appears to revolve around two issues.
1. The the previous management wanted to maintain a hybrid marketing formula and (a suggested) LH management wanted a 'pure' LCC model.
However. It has been shown here that Eurowings does indeed have a strong hybrid element.In fact many of the 'legacy LCC's' (never thought I would be saying those two words together - but time has passed!).Are also introducing 'hybrid' elements to their product.I can think of no better example than EasyJet.So I can't see that this is/was the stumbling block. Soooooo
2.The (brand) name seems to be the issue.
This is simple.Either a national (city) name or a non specific name.So what have others chosen? Go/EasyJet/Ryanair/Level/Wizz etcetc etc.
The answer is there for all to see.
Airlines all started as National (istic) gov't projects with the pride of a nation a stake.It was if you weren't a country if you didn't have an airline.
So much money wasted so much corruption and poor business practices.Most have now gone,there are more to go.
Time to move on,the consumer most certainly does not care a jot ( except $$$).
It might be irritating that some large international/global airlines still use national names ( more an accident of history),but we need to move on from this.
 
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Mortyman
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Re: Lufthansa fires Brussels Airlines CEO & CFO since they didn't want to change SN into an LCC

Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:53 am

marcelh wrote:
PatrickZ80 wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
Isn't the whole point of EU to reduce such nationalist barriers and segmentation into a more cohesive unified entity?

As such I cant think of a better example to have Eurowings (a very apt name for broader European brand) to have a major base in Brussels, the defacto capital of EU.


Maybe it's supposed to reduce nationalist barriers, but it's failing to do so. As for brands, people don't want a European brand. They want a Belgian, German, Dutch, French, British, whatever nationality's brand. Those nationalistic feelings are very much alive among the general public, much higher than among some high-ranked politicians I'd say. Of course this doesn't mean people will only fly the brand of their own country, but they want to know where the brand is coming from. A broader European brand doesn't have that.

There are already broader European brands. Ryanair, EasyJet, WizzAir and Norwegian employ people from all countries in the EU.


Well, Norwegian still has it's head office in Norway, the ceo is still Norwegian and the airline has kept it's name also on it's subsidiaries in one way or the other. Now, Norwegian is ofcourse not Norway's national airline, but still ....
 
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Re: Lufthansa fires Brussels Airlines CEO & CFO since they didn't want to change SN into an LCC

Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:59 am

OA940 wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
PatrickZ80 wrote:

I'm sure it will. Those two are going to start their own airline and compete their former employer out of the market, and I think they'll succeed. At least, that's what I would do if I were them. In a few years Lufthansa will regret this decision.

They have a perfect right to do that, just as LH can do what they want. Good, bad or indifferent decision, it's LH's call to make. It takes a lot of intestinal fortitude to tell your bosses and owners no, so good for them


It is their right, but SN is a national airline. With actual good (-ish) service. People love them. Imagine what would happen if AF, BA, AC, SU, CX, QF etc. were turned into LCC's. The public would go nuts. Which is what will happen now. I mean sure people will still fly them, but not as much as before. There are tons of people who would prefer paying 100-200$ extra to get actual free service on their 10-hour flights.

National airline is such a quaint archaic concept I thought, especially for modern evolved Europeans. Isn’t Brussels the locus of the EU, and nationalism is a dirty word? I thought that jingoistic nonsense was limited to the Yanks! Most passengers have proven they care less about the name of the airline on the ticket than the price on it.
 
Conti764
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Re: Lufthansa fires Brussels Airlines CEO & CFO since they didn't want to change SN into an LCC

Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:13 pm

cougar15 wrote:
Conti764 wrote:
I have never trusted LH in the frist place. Like I've always thought, there was no reason for LH to take over SN but to eliminate (future) competition and fence off their backyard. Untill the LH takeover SN was leaning heavily towards the OW-group (AA, BA,...)

I have been saying for years that LH will one day exterminate Brussels Airlines in favor of it's bland, ugly pet project Eurowings.

Time for BRU to reconsider its position towards Air Belgium, try to lure them away from CRL and into BRU and see where it goes from there. Maybe AB could develop into a new sort of SN and, accept for their Chinese business plan also start developing a European network. So Belgian authorities could strip SN of their African rights and transfer them to AB. After all, SN's African network can only work with Belgian African bilaterals and they stay Belgian...

After all, there is not much risk from such endeavour. According to Belgian media, BRU is about to loose all SN's intercontinental traffic in favor of FRA and BRU would be degraded to a feeder airport for EW...


So you would rather see Air Belgium (if it ever takes off); with a CEO that use to run TNT Airways (and we all know what happened there......) and CHINESE Investors taking away the priced routes and Belgian traffic rights? YES; SN was turned by Gaston, but at what price, only by flying the absolute oldest A330´s to grace the sky. Where is the future in that? How real was the perceived turnaround and how big is the investment burden the next 5-10 years will require. Would SN be able to stem these costs alone from the profits they are/were making? I fear not.....


Whatever the name or construction, I don't really care. But all I care about, as a Belgian and aviation enthousiast, is to keep as much traffic and thus employment at Brussels Airport. To have a 'national' company prosper and grow at our national airport which in turn grows as well.

Even with thirsty old A330's SN was running a profit and showed LH it worked. Why give up everything and have EW absorp SN? Can you imagine what SN would be able to if they were allowed a solid growth with modern planes? BRU is ideally located in between AMS and CDG. LH should be backing the primary airline using this airport in stead of killing it off.
 
devron
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Re: Lufthansa fires Brussels Airlines CEO & CFO since they didn't want to change SN into an LCC

Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:20 pm

People on this forum seem to notice often that the LH group has lots of different brands (Austria, swiss, eurowings, lufthansa, brussel airlines) plus different opperating entities (germanwings, jump, cityline, eurowings opperated by cityline, sunexpress or brussel airlines, and air berlin legacy). So some consilidation in my opinion is good.

Personally I wonder what will happen with the loft lounge in brussel I use this louge often
 
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Revelation
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Re: Lufthansa fires Brussels Airlines CEO & CFO since they didn't want to change SN into an LCC

Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:46 pm

Brussels made its deal with the devil back in 2009 ( ref: https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... -take-over ) and put events in motion that led us directly to this day. Fact is that they were in no position to get a better deal. Banks were in no mood to lend money to airlines in that time frame. The CEO and CFO are now making a stand, but it won't matter, LH will get what it wants.
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Mortyman
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Re: Lufthansa fires Brussels Airlines CEO & CFO since they didn't want to change SN into an LCC

Sat Feb 03, 2018 1:08 pm

Bricktop wrote:
OA940 wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
They have a perfect right to do that, just as LH can do what they want. Good, bad or indifferent decision, it's LH's call to make. It takes a lot of intestinal fortitude to tell your bosses and owners no, so good for them


It is their right, but SN is a national airline. With actual good (-ish) service. People love them. Imagine what would happen if AF, BA, AC, SU, CX, QF etc. were turned into LCC's. The public would go nuts. Which is what will happen now. I mean sure people will still fly them, but not as much as before. There are tons of people who would prefer paying 100-200$ extra to get actual free service on their 10-hour flights.

National airline is such a quaint archaic concept I thought, especially for modern evolved Europeans. Isn’t Brussels the locus of the EU, and nationalism is a dirty word? I thought that jingoistic nonsense was limited to the Yanks! Most passengers have proven they care less about the name of the airline on the ticket than the price on it.


The thought of a United States of Europe is mostly a pet project for EU politicians and elitist in Europe. Most Europeans want to keep their national Identity. The Germans are perhaps the exception at large.
Last edited by Mortyman on Sat Feb 03, 2018 1:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Blerg
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Re: Lufthansa fires Brussels Airlines CEO & CFO since they didn't want to change SN into an LCC

Sat Feb 03, 2018 1:32 pm

This kind of reminds me of the DUS scenario where LH pulled the plug on AB and had most of its network transferred to Eurowings. Looking at BRU's airlines and destinations it seems that there is no serious player that can pose a threat... for the time being.

Maybe it's time for Ryanair to look at further expanding there.
 
SCQ83
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Re: Lufthansa fires Brussels Airlines CEO & CFO since they didn't want to change SN into an LCC

Sat Feb 03, 2018 1:53 pm

Blerg wrote:
This kind of reminds me of the DUS scenario where LH pulled the plug on AB and had most of its network transferred to Eurowings. Looking at BRU's airlines and destinations it seems that there is no serious player that can pose a threat... for the time being.

Maybe it's time for Ryanair to look at further expanding there.


Yes, there is a serious player: Air France. CDG is 1h35' by train from downtown Brussels.

Ryanair is already huge in Belgium. CRL is one of Ryanair's largest bases.
 
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Loew
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Re: Lufthansa fires Brussels Airlines CEO & CFO since they didn't want to change SN into an LCC

Sat Feb 03, 2018 1:55 pm

It is sad to see SN go, but this is also a very expected development after LH´s takeover. National "flag carriers" concept is dead and has been dead for years now in the EU. And let´s be honest, SABENA has been dead for a long time and Brussels airlines are a mere shadow of the former glory. Eurowings business model is very close to the SN model anyway, and as it has been shown numerous times before, people are going to fly it no matter what the plane looks on the outside. SN currently has a dominant position on several markets and routes, and people flying these routes will have a little to no other choice after the EW integration anyway. Yes it is unfair, compared to OS or LX which can keep their identities within LH group (for now), but who knows what would happen to these companies and brands in say 20 - 30 years? LH group is definitely going to integrate more in the coming decades to remain competitive.
 
rukundo
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Re: Lufthansa fires Brussels Airlines CEO & CFO since they didn't want to change SN into an LCC

Sat Feb 03, 2018 2:06 pm

Belgian media know about as much about aviation as the non-specialist media in other countries, i.e. not muc at all. LH can't just move all of SN's intercontinental flights to FRA, because especially the African flights are subject to traffic rights and bilaterals between Belgium and the countries in question. These are bilateral about flight to Belgium, not Germany.


Rwanda signed a BASA with Germnay few years ago.

"Hon. Dr.Alexis Nzahabwanimana, the Minister of State in charge of transport in the Ministry of infrastructure signed the Agreement on behalf of the GoR & H.E Peter Fahrenhltz the Ambassador of the Germany to Rwanda signed on behalf of the Federal Republic of Germany." http://www.mininfra.gov.rw/index.php?id ... 02395796c3

Germans (who colonized Rwanda) are making business in Rwanda (Volkswagen plant in Rwanda, Siemens which will probably built the Rwanda Rail network,...). I don't have last stats, but few years ago, Germnay was the 3rd biggest market for Rwanda in terms of tourists, behind USA, UK, but ahead Belgium.

In 2016, KLM carried 145 000 pax between Kigali and Amsterdam, while 57 000 for Brussels Airlines between Brussels and Kigali. Brussels Airlines has just reduced flights to Kigali.

Even if the Kigali Brussels route is one of oldest in Rwanda (Rwanda was also a Belgian colony), i m pretty sure that most of people flying on this route don't leave in Belgium. I won't be surprised if Lufthansa decides to serve Kigali, from Frankfurt. With its biggest network, Lufthansa will probably get more pax than Brussels Airlines. Don't forrget that British Airways has ended services to Tanzania and Uganda.

Image

Uganda CAA announced month ago that Lufthansa could serve Entebbe in 2019, why not via Kigali: https://www.facebook.com/Ugandacaa/phot ... =3&theater.
Last edited by rukundo on Sat Feb 03, 2018 2:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
Nicoeddf
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Re: Lufthansa fires Brussels Airlines CEO & CFO since they didn't want to change SN into an LCC

Sat Feb 03, 2018 2:09 pm

YangFeng wrote:
iadadd wrote:
I think the issue is LH doesn't really care nor understand about that niche, albeit profitable, African market that SN serves. LH probably assumes that they can just funnel passengers through ADD and expand codeshare with ET.

What LH sees is a relatively large city, Brussels, that can host as an additional hub in their network and take advantage of the fact that it already posses a decently sized long-haul fleet.


Don't be absurd. Everybody including LH management understands that and why again is Lufthansa CEO Carsten saying that Africa will be their biggest growth market in the future? http://www.airliners.de/kranich-konzern-afrika/43578 (German)


Haha, exactly my thought.

People sitting at home and spouting that LH Group, or any comparable airline entity, wouldn't understand a market... absurd it is.

Regarding Mr Spohrs anxiety about the good performance of Mr Gustin, I hardly doubt the former loses any sleep about that. If any Airline Group had a formidable turnaround in recent years, it was LH. That's not to discredit Gustins work, but hardly comparable with Mr Spohrs performance as head of the whole conglomerate, rather than being the boss of a smallish niche part of the whole *shrug*
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Blerg
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Re: Lufthansa fires Brussels Airlines CEO & CFO since they didn't want to change SN into an LCC

Sat Feb 03, 2018 2:30 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
Blerg wrote:
This kind of reminds me of the DUS scenario where LH pulled the plug on AB and had most of its network transferred to Eurowings. Looking at BRU's airlines and destinations it seems that there is no serious player that can pose a threat... for the time being.

Maybe it's time for Ryanair to look at further expanding there.


Yes, there is a serious player: Air France. CDG is 1h35' by train from downtown Brussels.

Ryanair is already huge in Belgium. CRL is one of Ryanair's largest bases.


Air France might be a massive airline but I can't imagine many taking the train or bus to catch a flight from CDG with so many connecting opportunities offered from Brussels airport. If someone is flying to Chicago from Brussels, will it be cheaper to fly from Paris or to take a connecting flight from BRU on KLM, British Airways...?

As for CRL, it's some 60 km away while BRU is only 7. I can't imagine Charleroi being popular with higher yielding passengers as otherwise Ryanair wouldn't feel the need to actually launch BRU flights some years ago.
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: SN CEO and CFO termintated

Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:42 pm

bralo20 wrote:
Aisak wrote:
If SN is owned/controlled by a german entity (LH) and it is no longer run by Belgian nationals..... Could Belgium-Africa rights be in peril?


Unfortunately the rights aren't in peril thanks to the ownership construction of Brussels Airlines (this was even before LH owned it in place).

Brussels Airlines NV (the airline) is 100% owned by the Belgian holding company SN Airholding NV, which makes it a Belgian owned airline. However, SN Airholding NV is the company that was taken over by Lufthansa. So technically Brussels Airlines remains a Belgian owned company even though their sole shareholder is owned by Germans.


That works in the EU, and in the countries that recognize EU as a single negotiating entity, as far as air transport is concerned. European Common Aviation Area countries, or signatories of open skies treaties, where common air market is recognized (like EU-US treaty).

But signatories of older bilaterals are generally not bound by these innovations, AFAIK, and may enforce rigorous rules on determining "ownership", where multiple layers of shell companies are not changing the ultimate determination. AFAIR, that's exactly the reason why, for example 50+% of KLM's voting stock still is (and probably will be in perpetuity) owned by a Dutch-controlled entity, despite KLM itself being run by Air France-KLM group.

That's what it used to be like mere 20 years ago, and I doubt bilaterals in the key markets of SN's strength (Africa) were much updated since. But I will be glad to be educated otherwise, if there were major changes in the meantime.
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seahawk
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Re: Lufthansa fires Brussels Airlines CEO & CFO since they didn't want to change SN into an LCC

Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:54 pm

Blerg wrote:
This kind of reminds me of the DUS scenario where LH pulled the plug on AB and had most of its network transferred to Eurowings. Looking at BRU's airlines and destinations it seems that there is no serious player that can pose a threat... for the time being.

Maybe it's time for Ryanair to look at further expanding there.


LH pulled the plug on AB? You got to be kidding. But in the end no German source talked about giving up the SN brand or giving up long haul ops from Brussels. In the end it is imho a management fight. LH wants SN to report to EW, SN´s management wanted to stay a first tier daughter and report directly to Spohr without influence by EW.
 
IPFreely
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Re: Lufthansa fires Brussels Airlines CEO & CFO since they didn't want to change SN into an LCC

Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:50 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
It's about what country you represent as an airline, certainly as a flag carrier. You're the main thing in your country, other airlines look up to you. You don't let that slip away to become a niche.

.
Not sure if this is serious or not. But regardless, if an airline wants to maintain it's identity as a "national" airline it shouldn't go bankrupt -- other airlines do not look up to bankrupt airlines. And a "national" airline definitely shouldn't sell majority ownership to an airline from another country -- once that happens there is no more "national" airline. The idea of Belgium having a German-owned national airline is actually pretty funny.
 
Planesmart
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Re: Lufthansa fires Brussels Airlines CEO & CFO since they didn't want to change SN into an LCC

Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:39 pm

bralo20 wrote:
Planesmart wrote:
Dismissal in this way, as opposed to resignation, may well suspend 'restraint of trade' employment clauses. Perhaps this successful double act will be turning up very soon to haunt their former masters?


Even if they could I doubt they would do it. It's not so easy to start an airline from scratch in Belgium nor do we have the market which can support that. Brussels Airlines was fairly quickly established thanks to being able to use Sabena's subsidiary DAT as the basis of the new airline. They had a valid AOC to start with, they had planes not tied up in the bankruptcy and they were supported by the government and regional shareholders. It was possible to restart quickly and with a fair amount of planes. And yet it took over a decade before they became profitable...

Starting from 0 is hard, look at Air Belgium, they exist for 2 years already and still haven't received the AOC to start operations. (although the fact that Air Belgium is actually a Chinese airline could be a big hurdle in the decision making process of the Belgian CAA).

And which name would the new airline use? The Brussels Airlines brand is owned by SN Airholding NV which is owned by Lufthansa, so even if Lufthansa abandons the brand eventually they'll never release it. Sabena? Same problem, although Sabena NV still exists (company in liquidation), the Sabena brand was transferred from Sabena NV to SN Airholding NV who bought it from the liquidation, so that brand is out of the question also. DAT (Delta Air Transport), same problem, ownership of the brand lies with SN Airholding NV.

I'm not suggesting they will start a new airline. Wait for the dust to settle.
 
Thomaas
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Re: Lufthansa fires Brussels Airlines CEO & CFO since they didn't want to change SN into an LCC

Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:48 pm

I think many of you overstate the importance of Brussel Airlines’ brand in Africa. After all, today’s airline is the product of 2 name changes and a brankrupty. I’d wager that most people still remember it as Sabena or SN Brussels. Brussels Airlines itself had heavily trimmed its African network from the Sabena days till the arrival of the A330s a few years ago. Ultimately, people will book the flights because it is either direct to BRU or offers a convenient one stop option to the rest of Europe, be it called Brussels Airlines or Eurowings.
 
sf260
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Re: Lufthansa fires Brussels Airlines CEO & CFO since they didn't want to change SN into an LCC

Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:38 pm

Thomaas wrote:
I think many of you overstate the importance of Brussel Airlines’ brand in Africa.
Have you ever been in Africa? ( I mean real central Africa, not South Africa or some Mediterrenean tourist resort) Have you ever tried to book an airline ticket while you were in there? It doesn’t work exactly the same as in the western world.
Thomaas wrote:
After all, today’s airline is the product of 2 name changes and a brankrupty. I’d wager that most people still remember it as Sabena or SN Brussels.
Most? Maybe some, but definitely not most! Some people also call it Brussels Airways. When you are in Africa and talk about Sabena / SN Brussels / Brussels Airlines / Brussels Airways, people know what you talk about. Nobody knows what Eurowings is.
Thomaas wrote:
Brussels Airlines itself had heavily trimmed its African network from the Sabena days till the arrival of the A330s a few years ago.
I don’t know exactly what the African network of Sabena looked like, but I bet the current network is quite close. It is mainly other intercontinental destinations the are missing vs Sabena network (North America, Asia)
Thomaas wrote:
Ultimately, people will book the flights because it is either direct to BRU or offers a convenient one stop option to the rest of Europe, be it called Brussels Airlines or Eurowings.
I agree that the name is not the most imporant thing, but it holds / can hold a lot of value and recognition. You make it sound like it doesn’t matter at all, which is simply not true. Take a look ar McDonalds or Coca-Cola or Tesla, a brand can be very powerfull. In ex-ebola countries (amongst others), the Brussels Airlines brand is in very high regard.
 
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Re: Lufthansa fires Brussels Airlines CEO & CFO since they didn't want to change SN into an LCC

Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:06 am

Conti764 wrote:
After all, there is not much risk from such endeavour. According to Belgian media, BRU is about to loose all SN's intercontinental traffic in favor of FRA and BRU would be degraded to a feeder airport for EW...

Lufthansa will not move all intercontinental traffic to FRA. It may make a dent in non-Africa traffic (witness Lufthansa's refusal to let Brussels Airlines code-share on the new route to PVG), but they will have to proceed carefully as, once you force passengers to make a connection where there once wasn't one, they may choose AMS, CDG, or LHR over FRA. If BRU becomes a feeder for Eurowings, Carsten Spohr's pet project will certainly fail. Between the EU, NATO, and the multinational corporations and NGOs, BRU is too big a market to think that it can only be a feeder to other hubs. If the Lufthansa Group doesn't operate non-stop flights to key destinations, someone else will.

Blerg wrote:
Air France might be a massive airline but I can't imagine many taking the train or bus to catch a flight from CDG with so many connecting opportunities offered from Brussels airport.

Imagine harder. Air France has a check-in desk in Brussels' largest train station where passengers get their boarding passes and drop off their luggage. There's even a contract lounge for Sky Team and Flying Blue elite members, and for passengers connecting to a premium class flight.

Blerg wrote:
I can't imagine Charleroi being popular with higher yielding passengers as otherwise Ryanair wouldn't feel the need to actually launch BRU flights some years ago.

Ryanair's arrival in BRU was a defensive move against Vueling, not an effort to catch "higher yielding" passengers. Though it has since expanded, its initial network from BRU was almost a mirror image of the destinations Vueling had announced a few months earlier. Ryanair was in such a rush to get in before Vueling they didn't even negotiate with the airport's management.

Phosphorus wrote:
But signatories of older bilaterals are generally not bound by these innovations, AFAIK, and may enforce rigorous rules on determining "ownership", where multiple layers of shell companies are not changing the ultimate determination.

Correct, just ask DHL. Even though they moved their main European hub from BRU to LEJ 10 years ago, their flight to LOS still stops in BRU both ways to benefit from bilaterals between Belgium and Nigeria, as they can't seem to be able to get permission to fly non-stop.
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Re: Lufthansa fires Brussels Airlines CEO & CFO since they didn't want to change SN into an LCC

Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:19 am

@blueflyer

Ryanair's arrival in BRU was a defensive move against Vueling, not an effort to catch "higher yielding" passengers. Though it has since expanded, its initial network from BRU was almost a mirror image of the destinations Vueling had announced a few months earlier. Ryanair was in such a rush to get in before Vueling they didn't even negotiate with the airport's management.

If yields were not there then FR would have left BRU and retreated back to CRL. Charleroi is primarily a lowcost airport for price sensitive passengers where, in theory, yields should be lower. You said it yourself, they even kept on expanding despite not negotiating with the airport management first. So maybe the initial move was because of Vueling, however the addition of new flights was primarily driven by them wanting to make more money with BRU's more attractive clientele which can afford to pay a higher fare.

As for AF, thanks for the info regarding the checkin.
 
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Re: Lufthansa fires Brussels Airlines CEO & CFO since they didn't want to change SN into an LCC

Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:02 am

According to the Flemish newspaper Nieuwsblad there is for the first time since the creation of Brussels Airlines a consensus amongst all unions to strike and ground all planes if necessary when Lufthansa decides to confirm the termination of the Belgian leadership and if they decide to get rid of the Brussels Airlines brand. Apparently there's a massive support amongst the employees regarding the future of Gustin & De Raeymaecker.

The strike would be the first since Brussels Airlines was founded out of the ashes of the strike prone airline Sabena (which should tell something about how good the airline (Brussels Airlines) was managed).

Also according to the newspaper the federal government was informed and the prime minister, the minister of mobility and the minister of employment are all talking behind the screens with Lufthansa. Though they refuse to comment it seems they are feeling that LH screwed them since guaranties were made about Brussels Airlines to remain a separate brand (with Belgian management), guaranties which were unfortunately never been confirmed in writing.

Seems that there are some hot days around the corner...
Last edited by bralo20 on Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:27 am, edited 3 times in total.
 
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Flying Belgian
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Re: SN CEO and CFO termintated

Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:17 am

Aisak wrote:
If SN is owned/controlled by a german entity (LH) and it is no longer run by Belgian nationals..... Could Belgium-Africa rights be in peril?


Why would it ? As long as the routes are still being flown by a Belgian carrier OO-registred ? LX still operated with HB-Registered frames and AOC despite being 100% owned by LH.
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Re: Lufthansa fires Brussels Airlines CEO & CFO since they didn't want to change SN into an LCC

Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:08 am

IPFreely wrote:
PatrickZ80 wrote:
It's about what country you represent as an airline, certainly as a flag carrier. You're the main thing in your country, other airlines look up to you. You don't let that slip away to become a niche.

.
Not sure if this is serious or not. But regardless, if an airline wants to maintain it's identity as a "national" airline it shouldn't go bankrupt -- other airlines do not look up to bankrupt airlines. And a "national" airline definitely shouldn't sell majority ownership to an airline from another country -- once that happens there is no more "national" airline. The idea of Belgium having a German-owned national airline is actually pretty funny.


When did Brussels Airlines go bankrupt?
 
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Re: Lufthansa fires Brussels Airlines CEO & CFO since they didn't want to change SN into an LCC

Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:10 am

mjoelnir wrote:

When did Brussels Airlines go bankrupt?


They didn't, their predecessor Sabena went bankrupt in 2001.
 
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Re: Lufthansa fires Brussels Airlines CEO & CFO since they didn't want to change SN into an LCC

Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:14 am

bralo20 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:

When did Brussels Airlines go bankrupt?


They didn't, their predecessor Sabena went bankrupt in 2001.


Exactly!!! Why did you cut out to what statement and poster my question was intended to?
 
YokoTsuno
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Re: Lufthansa fires Brussels Airlines CEO & CFO since they didn't want to change SN into an LCC

Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:39 am

European company :roll: If it only was that simple.

These nationalistic feelings are still alive and kicking. Do you really believe Belgians think Eurowings is a truly European company when the Germans just sacked their CEO? It's not the first time I have seen German takeovers abroad driving a profitable company into total distruction and ultimately complete closure, and it certainly won't be the last.

Unions have already threatening to ground airplanes and one only needs a hard-headed boss with the cultural awareness level of the avarage T-Rex and zealous unions and there won't be any Brussels Airlines or Eurowings anymore for that matter.
 
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Re: Lufthansa fires Brussels Airlines CEO & CFO since they didn't want to change SN into an LCC

Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:29 am

IPFreely wrote:
And a "national" airline definitely shouldn't sell majority ownership to an airline from another country -- once that happens there is no more "national" airline. The idea of Belgium having a German-owned national airline is actually pretty funny.

You'll be disappointed to know who the owner of SWISS is.
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KLDC10
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Re: Lufthansa fires Brussels Airlines CEO & CFO since they didn't want to change SN into an LCC

Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:36 am

YokoTsuno wrote:
European company :roll: If it only was that simple.

These nationalistic feelings are still alive and kicking. Do you really believe Belgians think Eurowings is a truly European company when the Germans just sacked their CEO? It's not the first time I have seen German takeovers abroad driving a profitable company into total distruction and ultimately complete closure, and it certainly won't be the last.

Unions have already threatening to ground airplanes and one only needs a hard-headed boss with the cultural awareness level of the avarage T-Rex and zealous unions and there won't be any Brussels Airlines or Eurowings anymore for that matter.


On the other hand, Brussels Airlines has been run poorly enough that it was susceptible to German takeover. It isn't a merger of equals, and Brussels Airlines is very much the small fish in all of this. They have a fleet of only 51 aircraft, and a limited home market to support them. Belgium is a small country to begin with, while Brussels Airport is outflanked on either side by the behemoths of CDG and AMS, both of which are home to airlines (Air France and KLM respectively) with far more extensive connection opportunities and route networks.

The best future for Brussels Airlines is simply to be integrated into a larger airline, in this case Eurowings. The unions can make as much fuss about it as they wish, but at the end of the day, Brussels Airlines will not be able to survive in the current cut-throat European market for very much longer alone. Yes, it is unfortunate to see another airline brand disappear, but business realities have to take precedence. And I very much doubt that a strike at Brussels Airlines would have the potential to bring down Eurowings itself.
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Re: Lufthansa fires Brussels Airlines CEO & CFO since they didn't want to change SN into an LCC

Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:38 am

bralo20 wrote:
Though they refuse to comment it seems they are feeling that LH screwed them since guaranties were made about Brussels Airlines to remain a separate brand (with Belgian management), guaranties which were unfortunately never been confirmed in writing.


Unless the Belgian government consists of a bunch of amateurs (wich I highly doubt), they shouldn't be really surprised. Evryone knows that there is no guarantee unless in writing and with severe penalities. To be honest, I really think the Belgian government doesn't care and is only surprised because it would look bad if they weren't.

bralo20 wrote:
According to the Flemish newspaper Nieuwsblad there is for the first time since the creation of Brussels Airlines a consensus amongst all unions to strike and ground all planes if necessary when Lufthansa decides to confirm the termination of the Belgian leadership and if they decide to get rid of the Brussels Airlines brand. Apparently there's a massive support amongst the employees regarding the future of Gustin & De Raeymaecker.


And what will that do? The moment Eurowings gets an agreement with their pilots and cabin crew, they'll expand and not only will the "new" SN long haul planes "sold" to Eurowings, but SN will not get any meaningful expansion. Is that what you want as union?
 
YokoTsuno
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Re: Lufthansa fires Brussels Airlines CEO & CFO since they didn't want to change SN into an LCC

Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:11 pm

KLDC10 wrote:
YokoTsuno wrote:
The best future for Brussels Airlines is simply to be integrated into a larger airline, in this case Eurowings.
History has shown us time and time again that this matters very little when nationalistic feelings go South. I am not claiming that this is going to happen in this particar case of Brussels Airways but it would in no way surprise me if it did.

Are you familiar with Dutch nationalistic feelings, including the name calling in the BPost vs PostNL takeover saga? If not, I guess the British being tossed around by the almighty EU and going against all economic common sense, yet persisting in doing surely does.
 
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Re: Lufthansa fires Brussels Airlines CEO & CFO since they didn't want to change SN into an LCC

Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:18 pm

KLDC10 wrote:
YokoTsuno wrote:
European company :roll: If it only was that simple.

These nationalistic feelings are still alive and kicking. Do you really believe Belgians think Eurowings is a truly European company when the Germans just sacked their CEO? It's not the first time I have seen German takeovers abroad driving a profitable company into total distruction and ultimately complete closure, and it certainly won't be the last.

Unions have already threatening to ground airplanes and one only needs a hard-headed boss with the cultural awareness level of the avarage T-Rex and zealous unions and there won't be any Brussels Airlines or Eurowings anymore for that matter.


On the other hand, Brussels Airlines has been run poorly enough that it was susceptible to German takeover. It isn't a merger of equals, and Brussels Airlines is very much the small fish in all of this. They have a fleet of only 51 aircraft, and a limited home market to support them. Belgium is a small country to begin with, while Brussels Airport is outflanked on either side by the behemoths of CDG and AMS, both of which are home to airlines (Air France and KLM respectively) with far more extensive connection opportunities and route networks.

The best future for Brussels Airlines is simply to be integrated into a larger airline, in this case Eurowings. The unions can make as much fuss about it as they wish, but at the end of the day, Brussels Airlines will not be able to survive in the current cut-throat European market for very much longer alone. Yes, it is unfortunate to see another airline brand disappear, but business realities have to take precedence. And I very much doubt that a strike at Brussels Airlines would have the potential to bring down Eurowings itself.


Well run companies can be susceptible to takeover, in this case Lufthansa simply bought the shares. Apart from the size difference, as it is no merger, how could it be a merger of equals?
So if LH was not interested in the assets and the market of that airline, why should they have bought it? Up to now Brussels Airlines did better than Eurowings. I think you greatly underestimate the fuss unions can make.
 
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Re: Lufthansa fires Brussels Airlines CEO & CFO since they didn't want to change SN into an LCC

Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:33 pm

YokoTsuno wrote:
History has shown us time and time again that this matters very little when nationalistic feelings go South. I am not claiming that this is going to happen in this particar case of Brussels Airways but it would in no way surprise me if it did.

Are you familiar with Dutch nationalistic feelings, including the name calling in the BPost vs PostNL takeover saga? If not, I guess the British being tossed around by the almighty EU and going against all economic common sense, yet persisting in doing surely does.


I'm aware of European nationalistic feelings in general, and I've no doubt that that is one reason the Lufthansa group has sought to preserve the identities of other airlines in the group - SWISS, Austrian, etc. But of course, SWISS and Austrian are full-service carriers, which Brussels Airlines is not. The hybrid model presents a challenge in terms of integration, primarily because Lufthansa customers expect a consistent level of service outside of the Eurowings platform. Brussels Airlines is better suited to integration into Eurowings. Since Brussels is the capital of the European Union, I might even go so far as to suggest that that change would be welcomed in some quarters.

No one can control such nationalistic sentiments, as you well know, but I am simply stating that, when economic reality is taken into account, the actions of a relatively small workforce at Brussels Airlines will be little use against the giant that is the Lufthansa Group. Lufthansa owns the planes - if the worst really does happen, they can always get someone else to fly them.

mjoelnir wrote:
Well run companies can be susceptible to takeover, in this case Lufthansa simply bought the shares. Apart from the size difference, as it is no merger, how could it be a merger of equals?
So if LH was not interested in the assets and the market of that airline, why should they have bought it? Up to now Brussels Airlines did better than Eurowings. I think you greatly underestimate the fuss unions can make.


Of course well-run companies can be susceptible to takeover, precisely because they are well-run. However, they often have the luxury of multiple suitors and a great deal of influence over the final deal. A well-run company is not often provided with a "take it or leave it" offer.

My 'Merger of Equals' comment is aimed at the suggestion that every airline purchased by another has the right to retain their name and identity. That assumption, even when applied to the European Market, is false. Lufthansa calls the shots, as well they should.

You're confusing the value of assets with how they are utilized by a company. Air Berlin, for example, had a great deal of very valuable assets (Aircraft, Market Share, etc.), but they were unable to properly organize the company to make best use of those assets. It's no secret that they were valuable, because both Lufthansa and Easyjet attempted to get their hands on different chunks of the company following its collapse, but Air Berlin as an entity was a shoddily-run basket case.

Brussels Airlines has a number of valuable assets, which can be better exploited if integrated into a bigger company (Eurowings) with stronger backing (Lufthansa Group).
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Re: Lufthansa fires Brussels Airlines CEO & CFO since they didn't want to change SN into an LCC

Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:36 pm

If SN Brussels has to be integrated into Eurowings in order to make them more competitive then does it mean the same fate awaits Austrian Airlines which, in a way, is in a similar situation? Wizz Air is opening a base at VIE, BTS is a growing lowcost hub, Lauda Motion is set to take away a large share of the holiday market... so why not do the same as in Belgium?
 
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Re: Lufthansa fires Brussels Airlines CEO & CFO since they didn't want to change SN into an LCC

Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:44 pm

Apart from Belgian sources nobody spoke about giving up the brand. Spohr even pointed out the importance of SN in African market. I still believe that LH wants to make SN a subsidiary of EW which would in return reduce the position of the SN executives in the LH group hierarchy.

The difference in the business model are nearly non existent

EW basic is SN Check&Go
EW Smart is SN Light & Relax
EW Best is SN business class

the flex option at EW replaces the Flex and Fast option at SN.

And if the problem is that LH wants a part of the short and medium haul flights to move to the EW brand it is only consistent with what they are doing in the whole group.
 
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Re: Lufthansa fires Brussels Airlines CEO & CFO since they didn't want to change SN into an LCC

Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:32 pm

I completely agree with YangFeng. LH just announced Africa to be THE imminent strategic growth area and that Brussels Airlines was the brand in the LH group that was to take this further. There is no question the SN model is successful and the brand valued and I do not see any reason why the operational model exercised already with OS an LX, i.e. to keep local management and brand flavor in place to run this wholly owned division should not work here.
 
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Re: Lufthansa fires Brussels Airlines CEO & CFO since they didn't want to change SN into an LCC

Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:44 pm

Mortyman wrote:
The thought of a United States of Europe is mostly a pet project for EU politicians and elitist in Europe. Most Europeans want to keep their national Identity. The Germans are perhaps the exception at large.


I agree 100%.

Back on topic, this kind of situation is what I'm dreading if SAS becomes part of Lufthansa Group. The Germans would crack ze whip and tell them "You're working for us now, you will trim costs as much as you can, and then some. Oh, and your work contracts are now invalid and your fleet will be used to feed Frankfurt, not Oslo, Copenhagen and Stockholm."
 
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Re: Lufthansa fires Brussels Airlines CEO & CFO since they didn't want to change SN into an LCC

Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:01 pm

[quote="janders"]Consolidation under Eurowings brand seems quite appropriate for airline based in the capital of Europe afterall.

Also lets not forget, Eurowings is not simply a vanilla LCC, but will offer a real business product on its longhaul ops using same lie-flat seat as LH business class.
us
Image

https://thepointsguy.com/2017/12/eurowi ... ess-seats/[/quote

And EW has a "sort-of" Euro Business class on their short haul services as well. I would not surprise me to see EW become more like SN rather than the other way around; also, the name Brussels Airlines does not have the cachet as Sabena did, so if they are merged totally into EW, I don't see any issues there as well. There are ways to protect the international rights (look at SAS, for example, which is an amalgamation of three companies, Norwegian, Swedish, Danish). You could operate an EW (Deutschland) EW (Belgium), etc. and save those rights. EasyJet is already doing it with their purchase of Austrian assets (Niki).
 
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Re: Lufthansa fires Brussels Airlines CEO & CFO since they didn't want to change SN into an LCC

Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:25 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
. Oh, and your work contracts are now invalid and your fleet will be used to feed Frankfurt, not Oslo, Copenhagen and Stockholm."
Just a matter of time.

In the past it were the aristocrats who called the shots, thereafter the industrialists. In the age of globalisation it's Facebook :) and the larger states which exercise hegemony over the smaller ones.

The only common factor thoughout history is that someone is calling the shots and that it came to an end one day. UK and Eastern Europe are already rebelling, sooner or later smaller core EU countries will follow suit marking the end of it all.
 
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Re: Lufthansa fires Brussels Airlines CEO & CFO since they didn't want to change SN into an LCC

Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:19 pm

LJ wrote:
bralo20 wrote:
Though they refuse to comment it seems they are feeling that LH screwed them since guaranties were made about Brussels Airlines to remain a separate brand (with Belgian management), guaranties which were unfortunately never been confirmed in writing.

Unless the Belgian government consists of a bunch of amateurs (wich I highly doubt), they shouldn't be really surprised. Evryone knows that there is no guarantee unless in writing and with severe penalities.

The agreement is the way it is because in 2009 LH would not have signed for anything less than eventual full ownership and eventual full control of management. Government ministers can complain all they want but when push comes to shove guarantees for local management aren't in writing and LH would never have taken the SN operation if they were. The reality is the airline business as a whole and SN in particular was a mess back in 2009, and LH was the only one with deep enough pockets to take them on. Since LH was in such a position of power, the deal of course would favor them. If the government wanted local control they should have lent money or lined up a bank willing to do so, but of course those were all unfeasible options. Since there was no other offers on the table the choice was to sign with LH or go the way of Malev and many others. They chose the LH deal.
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Re: Lufthansa fires Brussels Airlines CEO & CFO since they didn't want to change SN into an LCC

Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:38 pm

Oh, the suffering under LH. I am sure everybody at SN fought tooth and nail to not operate those A340s for Eurowings ... Yes, go strike for a Belgian as a CEO and not to be forced to operate under the Eurowings brand and insist on being cut-off from the majority of growth within the LH group in the next decade.
 
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Re: Lufthansa fires Brussels Airlines CEO & CFO since they didn't want to change SN into an LCC

Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:11 pm

I fully agree with YangFeng. Lufthansa just released a statement that Africa was an imminent strategic focus of LH and that LH group airline Brussels Airlines was the carrier at the heart of this initiative. I do not see why the LH strategy of developing its European investments with local management and its characteristic brand flavor and geographical focus should not work out for SN. They are LH group‘s force in Africa.
 
Scorpio
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Re: Lufthansa fires Brussels Airlines CEO & CFO since they didn't want to change SN into an LCC

Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:00 pm

IPFreely wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
When did Brussels Airlines go bankrupt?


After Sabena went bankrupt, Brussels Airlines started and was owned by a shell company. Lufthansa owned much of the shell company and had an option to buy it all. Therefore Belgium's so-called "national" airline has been German owned since Sabena's bankruptcy.

Um, no. Sabena went bankrupt in 2001, Lufthansa first announced they'd buy a stake in SN in late 2008. Before that LH had nothing to do with SN...

The history is pretty clear, you should read up on it sometime.


Yeah, perhaps you should've followed your own advice...
 
bralo20
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Re: Lufthansa fires Brussels Airlines CEO & CFO since they didn't want to change SN into an LCC

Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:15 pm

Scorpio wrote:
IPFreely wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
When did Brussels Airlines go bankrupt?


After Sabena went bankrupt, Brussels Airlines started and was owned by a shell company. Lufthansa owned much of the shell company and had an option to buy it all. Therefore Belgium's so-called "national" airline has been German owned since Sabena's bankruptcy.

Um, no. Sabena went bankrupt in 2001, Lufthansa first announced they'd buy a stake in SN in late 2008. Before that LH had nothing to do with SN...

The history is pretty clear, you should read up on it sometime.


Yeah, perhaps you should've followed your own advice...


Indeed, Brussels Airlines was founded as SN Brussels Airlines from one of Sabena's subsidiaries which wasn't involved in the Bankruptcy, more specific Delta Air Transport (DAT), DAT was reformed into SN Airholding with new shareholders consisting out of regional governments, banks, businesses. With DAT's AOC SN Brussels Airlines was founded which a few years later became Brussels Airlines when Virgin Express and SN Brussels Airlines merged into one company. Then there was also Birdy Airlines, the operator of SN's longhaul fleet which was started on the ashes of Citybird. SN Brussels eventually took over Birdy Airlines and the planes were transferred into SN Brussels Airlines. Due to the merger with Virgin Express, Virgin became one of the shareholders. It was only in 2008 that Lufthansa stept into SN Airholding by buying 45% of the shares, Lufthansa also managed to get an exclusivity to obtain the rest of the shares in the next couple of years (I think original 5 years, then extended to 6 years). This is how Lufthansa got control over Brussels Airlines. Before Lufthansa stept into Brussels Airlines, SN was leaning towards British Airways and Oneworld but due to the crisis in the industry Lufthansa was virtually the only one able to provide the cash.

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