wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growth - 2018

Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:22 pm

HOW EXCITING!!! The bottom line is that this has switched from an experiment from which Amazon could still withdraw with minimal pain for a multibillion-dollar company (leases are cancellable on minimal notice and construction at CVG is at an early phase) to a more-committed effort. It shows that the experiment has gone well, even with its limited focus (2nd day air) and its inherent limitations (can't accelerate late shipments by putting them into its own "next day" stream, for example; i.e. limited ability to recover).

So here's a summary:

The 12 767-200s from ATSG are extended at least 2 years and as many as 5. So they go from 5 year leases expiring in 3 years to leases expiring no sooner than 5 years from now and as many as 8 years from now (i.e. they will be in service for Amazon for a total of between 7-10 years instead of just 5). As an example, N744AX is right now almost 36 years old and it will now fly at least until it is 41. It has enough cycles left to make it another 8 years (about 40600 at y/e 2016), so, as with all of these aircraft, actual reliability/performance and what is found at upcoming HMVs will likely determine how long it stays flying for Amazon. That said, CAM has been getting pretty-decent reliability from aircraft that are being flown right up near their cycle limit and then pulled from service. (In the ABX fleet, they flew N792AX basically to the limit and then retired it, and N798AX is somewhere around 49,500 cycles and still in the daily rotation for DHL.) [Ironically, the aircraft that pooped out on them in UPS Peak service was N364CM, a 30-ish y/o ex-Qantas 2012 767-300 conversion with around 31000 cycles which went tech in the wee hours of Wednesday morning at MSP, was worked on for two solid days, then ended up doing an air return when it tried to go back into service and is now home at CVG. ]

The 8 767-300s specially-acquired and converted for Amazon by ATSG have their leases extended to 10 years, which makes them essentially coextensive with the Atlas (Andromeda/Titan) dry-leases to Amazon.

The 10-27 additional aircraft are being procured in a timeframe that is totally-doable without significant future disruption of the used 767-300ER market. 2 are already in conversion, 2 recently-delivered and being operated by ATI for Peak and South American service are also available, as a practical matter, because they are not committed long-term to anything. So that's already 24 in hand out of potential 27. Add in 830WE (which may have been sold) and 354AA (which may just be a parts bird with only 19,000 cycles but about 116,000 hours), and you have the feedstock for all but 1-to-3 of your total Amazon commitment with aircraft already under contact. An easy lift. Of course, CAM really wants to be a lessor to a more-diversified base, so they will doubtless acquire other aircraft, but it is reassuring to know that you won't be jammed up if your primary customer chooses to exercise all its options. And if Jetran can't find buyers for the other 4 ex-AA aircraft (which it, frankly, probably already has optioned to somebody), there are plenty of planes out there to handle the ATSG requirement.

The other ATSG services agreements (maintenance and ground) are also being extended, which indicates that overall they are doing an acceptable-to-Amazon job at the moment.
 
MajMattMason
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growth - 2018

Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:51 pm

Great synopsis Will! Thx
 
cvgComair
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growth - 2018

Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:43 am

To add on, CVG just announced today that Amazon will break ground on their facility in Q1 2019 with an estimated finish of Q4 2021. Hopefully we get a more specific starting date in the near future, but it sounds like we are only a month or two from breaking ground. Really exciting to see the whole project gaining so much momentum!
 
CX747
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growth - 2018

Mon Dec 24, 2018 8:17 pm

Any word on how the system and the aircraft are holding up as we come down the home stretch?
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Acey559
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growth - 2018

Mon Dec 24, 2018 8:25 pm

[twoid][/twoid]
CX747 wrote:
Any word on how the system and the aircraft are holding up as we come down the home stretch?


For the most part, things have gone pretty well on the ATI side. Not sure about delays but we have had a few airplanes down for maintenance sporadically. All were fixed in a pretty reasonable timeframe though. Today has been a bit more difficult with multiple aircraft down for maintenance, but I’m not sure whether that caused delays. Overall things have moved along pretty well in my experience. I think over the last month I’ve only taken two delays and that was due to late trucks after the blizzard in RFD on Thanksgiving weekend.
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wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growth - 2018

Mon Dec 24, 2018 10:17 pm

Not every Amazon-leased plane is scheduled to fly every day. They have hot spares built into the schedule. On top of that, ATI generally has 255CM and 395CM available to cover scheduled maintenance and sometimes for unscheduled maintenance when they are not being used for something else, like military or other charter. 255 was used on UPS until Sunday, when it started for ONT from SDF and then ended up diverting to CVG. 395CM has been in the mix for Amazon since it came back from military duty on Saturday. This makes sense since 311 and 337 haven't moved for almost 24 hours, although one might be sitting spare. All of the 767-200s at ATI seem to be moving just fine.

ABX has the opportunity to use one of the underutilized aircraft in its fleet to cover. Of course, the UPS business took the rest of the fleet to perform, and they couldn't cover the loss of 364CM to a maintenance issue. But all their Amazon-dry-leased aircraft were running today, plus 312aa,

GTI similarly has hot spares in the schedule from among the dry-leased aircraft, and two additional maintenance spares that are not Amazon dry-leased. And the spares can fly routes normally flown by any of the 3 carriers; one can cover for the other. Given that I haven't seen anything like an aircraft down for days, I'm sure it went basically-fine, but it doesn't mean that everything was on-time.

Peak isn't over because returns have already begun, and they make up a huge after-Christmas shipping volume. But I think everyone should be able to cope from here. No major meltdowns that I'm aware of; at least none being reported publicly, among any of the major shippers (UPS, FedEx, USPS), which is nice. UPS certainly had its problems in the past. Give how strong the economy is right now (despite the stock market falling due to the Fed's inflation-paranoia-driven interest rate hikes), the volumes should be high. I notice the press doesn't want to report positive economic news for some reason, so we will have to hunt over the next few days for the actual sales/shipment volume, but I think we're gonna find that it's unparallelled.
 
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Acey559
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growth - 2018

Mon Dec 24, 2018 10:27 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Not every Amazon-leased plane is scheduled to fly every day. They have hot spares built into the schedule. On top of that, ATI generally has 255CM and 395CM available to cover scheduled maintenance and sometimes for unscheduled maintenance when they are not being used for something else, like military or other charter. 255 was used on UPS until Sunday, when it started for ONT from SDF and then ended up diverting to CVG. 395CM has been in the mix for Amazon since it came back from military duty on Saturday. This makes sense since 311 and 337 haven't moved for almost 24 hours, although one might be sitting spare. All of the 767-200s at ATI seem to be moving just fine.

ABX has the opportunity to use one of the underutilized aircraft in its fleet to cover. Of course, the UPS business took the rest of the fleet to perform, and they couldn't cover the loss of 364CM to a maintenance issue.

GTI similarly has hot spares in the schedule from among the dry-leased aircraft, and two additional maintenance spares that are not Amazon dry-leased. And the spares can fly routes normally flown by any of the 3 carriers; one can cover for the other. Given that I haven't seen anything like an aircraft down for days, I'm sure it went basically-fine, but it doesn't mean that everything was on-time.

Peak isn't over because returns have already begun, and they make up a huge after-Christmas shipping volume. But I think everyone should be able to cope from here. No major meltdowns that I'm aware of; at least none being reported publicly, among any of the major shippers (UPS, FedEx, USPS), which is nice. UPS certainly had its problems in the past. Give how strong the economy is right now (despite the stock market falling due to the Fed's inflation-paranoia-driven interest rate hikes), the volumes should be high. I notice the press doesn't want to report positive economic news for some reason, so we will have to hunt over the next few days for the actual sales/shipment volume, but I think we're gonna find that it's unparallelled.


311 is one of the aircraft having issues. It’s in SEA with what appears to be an engine issue. Hopefully it will be back up and running soon. Not sure what’s up with 337. It may be the current spare since it’s in SMF, but I’m not certain.
In Dixie Land I'll take my stand to live and die in Dixie.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growth - 2018

Mon Dec 24, 2018 11:05 pm

Thanks, Acey!

Fortunately, UPS seems to be done with a lot of its outside lift. I notice that the two SkyLease 747s, which soldiered on with amazing reliability for UPS this Peak, were sent back to MIA yesterday. Your 376AN finished up UPS and is now flying Amazon for the moment (maybe, with 395, to cover broken equipment). Depending upon how soon Amazon wants to grow its fleet in 2019, I would not be surprised if one or both of 376AN and 373AA ended up as Amazon dry-leases. Of course, at the last earnings call, management seemed to suggest that ATI had some opportunities with UPS and others for those aircraft, so we will see.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growth - 2018

Tue Dec 25, 2018 3:17 am

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays, everyone! It has been a great year participating in this thread with you.
 
travaz
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growth - 2018

Tue Dec 25, 2018 3:51 am

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to Everyone. A special thanks to all the folks in the air tonight or loading bags and cargo on the ramp. And of course all the gate agents Dispatchers and anyone else "keepin 'em flying"
 
CallmeJB
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growth - 2018

Tue Dec 25, 2018 4:49 am

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all. I've enjoyed these threads for the past two years, and look forward to next year's.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growth - 2018

Tue Dec 25, 2018 11:02 am

And just when you thought Christmas Day 2018 would be quiet...

N930WE is on the way back to the US from conversion in TLV. A little Christmas present for CAM.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N930WE

Interestingly, from the post-conversion photo I saw, it looks as if the plan was to put it in service without the usual 2-week full paint job, as was done with N373AA. Like N373AA, the green areas have been covered with some paint that matches the rest of the fuselage (in this case white), and the logos of the previous carrier (in this case Air New Zealand) have been removed except on the rudder. Now that Peak has basically-passed, I don't know if it will operate in its current condition for a while, or whether the need for quick service is gone and it will go off to Dean Baldwin for a full paint job.

This will become N382CM, eventually. It has been at TLV since 6/6/18.

Its sister, N730WE, has been at TLV since August 30, 2018. The third one of the 3 ex-NZ 767-300s bought by a company called 30 West, N830WE, was I thought also sold to CAM, but there has been some info on here to the effect that it may have been sold to somebody else. Regardless, it is still at Alice Springs, apparently. Now that two of the group of aircraft that were in conversion at TLV have been completed, we will see what if any aircraft CAM sends there next. I don't think we'll see any of the recently-purchased-from-Jetran upcoming AA retirements moving to TLV for a while. First, they have to be retired, and I am not sure when in 2019 AA has planned to retire the first one. Then, they either go for a heavy check while still under AA's control, or to the desert, or promptly to the purchaser at ILN. Only then do they make their way to TLV. So I expect that there should be at least one aircraft off to TLV before the first of the newly-purchased AA ones starts through the cycle. CAM had plainly slowed down its conversions somewhat from the previous Amazon-driven pace, but it looks like it will ramp back up again. Unlike Atlas, which used both IAI and Boeing to do its conversions (12 by IAI, the rest by Boeing), CAM uses only IAI. Given that the IAI/Bedek Mexicana MRO conversion line at MEX is apparently now empty, IAI has some spare capacity if CAM wants to ramp things up. (That MEX line did the last 4 IAI conversions for Connie.)

So there should be lots to follow as the New Year begins!
 
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Spacepope
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growth - 2018

Tue Dec 25, 2018 3:16 pm

wjcandee wrote:
And just when you thought Christmas Day 2018 would be quiet...

N930WE is on the way back to the US from conversion in TLV. A little Christmas present for CAM.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N930WE

Interestingly, from the post-conversion photo I saw, it looks as if the plan was to put it in service without the usual 2-week full paint job, as was done with N373AA. Like N373AA, the green areas have been covered with some paint that matches the rest of the fuselage (in this case white), and the logos of the previous carrier (in this case Air New Zealand) have been removed except on the rudder. Now that Peak has basically-passed, I don't know if it will operate in its current condition for a while, or whether the need for quick service is gone and it will go off to Dean Baldwin for a full paint job.

This will become N382CM, eventually. It has been at TLV since 6/6/18.

Its sister, N730WE, has been at TLV since August 30, 2018. The third one of the 3 ex-NZ 767-300s bought by a company called 30 West, N830WE, was I thought also sold to CAM, but there has been some info on here to the effect that it may have been sold to somebody else. Regardless, it is still at Alice Springs, apparently. Now that two of the group of aircraft that were in conversion at TLV have been completed, we will see what if any aircraft CAM sends there next. I don't think we'll see any of the recently-purchased-from-Jetran upcoming AA retirements moving to TLV for a while. First, they have to be retired, and I am not sure when in 2019 AA has planned to retire the first one. Then, they either go for a heavy check while still under AA's control, or to the desert, or promptly to the purchaser at ILN. Only then do they make their way to TLV. So I expect that there should be at least one aircraft off to TLV before the first of the newly-purchased AA ones starts through the cycle. CAM had plainly slowed down its conversions somewhat from the previous Amazon-driven pace, but it looks like it will ramp back up again. Unlike Atlas, which used both IAI and Boeing to do its conversions (12 by IAI, the rest by Boeing), CAM uses only IAI. Given that the IAI/Bedek Mexicana MRO conversion line at MEX is apparently now empty, IAI has some spare capacity if CAM wants to ramp things up. (That MEX line did the last 4 IAI conversions for Connie.)

So there should be lots to follow as the New Year begins!


And another bit of news from the AA fleet thread that might be relevant here: 763s N381AN (1993 build, 101,000/16,000) and N389AA (1995 build, 90,000/15000) are scheduled to depart the fleet on 1/6/19.

Can't wait to follow the new thread next year!
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wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growth - 2018

Tue Dec 25, 2018 3:39 pm

Thanks, Spacepope!! That actually changes my analysis a little bit. So it will be fun to watch how this all goes...
 
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growth - 2018

Tue Dec 25, 2018 8:36 pm

CallmeJB wrote:
I have forgotten the exact timeline, but last time: the ATSG flying for Amazon was announced first, and then about a month later the AAWH flying was announced. For whatever reason, AAWH likes to keep customer agreements closer to the chest.

The worst kept secret right now is that Amazon wants 737-800 sized lift starting sometime next year. I wonder if there is any other additional flying to announce.


So, who might provide that? Unfortunately the 737 P2F program is way in its infancy, with just a trickle coming out. AEI was supposed to unveil its 12-pallet 738 freighter back last May but nothing has happened as of yet. Likewise the Airbus narrowbody P2F lines were to have cut first metal on the A321 program last year but again, they have been deathly quiet. The 734 conversions are still going full steam but all good feedstock for conversion has reportedly been bought up and is spoken for. I suppose the early AA 738 batch that is getting retired son is the most viable feedsource now, barring a collapse of a few smaller airlines in the next year (which is seeming more likely by the day).
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CX747
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growth - 2018

Tue Dec 25, 2018 8:55 pm

Merry Christmas to everyone! I look forward to following the thread in 2019.
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CX747
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growth - 2018

Tue Dec 25, 2018 9:01 pm

Spacepope wrote:
CallmeJB wrote:
I have forgotten the exact timeline, but last time: the ATSG flying for Amazon was announced first, and then about a month later the AAWH flying was announced. For whatever reason, AAWH likes to keep customer agreements closer to the chest.

The worst kept secret right now is that Amazon wants 737-800 sized lift starting sometime next year. I wonder if there is any other additional flying to announce.


So, who might provide that? Unfortunately the 737 P2F program is way in its infancy, with just a trickle coming out. AEI was supposed to unveil its 12-pallet 738 freighter back last May but nothing has happened as of yet. Likewise the Airbus narrowbody P2F lines were to have cut first metal on the A321 program last year but again, they have been deathly quiet. The 734 conversions are still going full steam but all good feedstock for conversion has reportedly been bought up and is spoken for. I suppose the early AA 738 batch that is getting retired son is the most viable feedsource now, barring a collapse of a few smaller airlines in the next year (which is seeming more likely by the day).


Great minds think a like. I've often thought the batch of AA 737-800s that are leaving the fleet early would find their way to Amazon as converted freighters.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
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Acey559
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growth - 2018

Tue Dec 25, 2018 9:46 pm

CX747 wrote:
Spacepope wrote:
CallmeJB wrote:
I have forgotten the exact timeline, but last time: the ATSG flying for Amazon was announced first, and then about a month later the AAWH flying was announced. For whatever reason, AAWH likes to keep customer agreements closer to the chest.

The worst kept secret right now is that Amazon wants 737-800 sized lift starting sometime next year. I wonder if there is any other additional flying to announce.


So, who might provide that? Unfortunately the 737 P2F program is way in its infancy, with just a trickle coming out. AEI was supposed to unveil its 12-pallet 738 freighter back last May but nothing has happened as of yet. Likewise the Airbus narrowbody P2F lines were to have cut first metal on the A321 program last year but again, they have been deathly quiet. The 734 conversions are still going full steam but all good feedstock for conversion has reportedly been bought up and is spoken for. I suppose the early AA 738 batch that is getting retired son is the most viable feedsource now, barring a collapse of a few smaller airlines in the next year (which is seeming more likely by the day).


Great minds think a like. I've often thought the batch of AA 737-800s that are leaving the fleet early would find their way to Amazon as converted freighters.


I’ve heard numerous rumors to this effect at work. Then again, you know how pilots and rumors go, but the other persistent rumor floating around was the 10 airplanes for Amazon and that came true. Time will tell but I think it would be a good fit.
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CallmeJB
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growth - 2018

Tue Dec 25, 2018 10:43 pm

Spacepope wrote:
CallmeJB wrote:
I have forgotten the exact timeline, but last time: the ATSG flying for Amazon was announced first, and then about a month later the AAWH flying was announced. For whatever reason, AAWH likes to keep customer agreements closer to the chest.

The worst kept secret right now is that Amazon wants 737-800 sized lift starting sometime next year. I wonder if there is any other additional flying to announce.


So, who might provide that? Unfortunately the 737 P2F program is way in its infancy, with just a trickle coming out. AEI was supposed to unveil its 12-pallet 738 freighter back last May but nothing has happened as of yet. Likewise the Airbus narrowbody P2F lines were to have cut first metal on the A321 program last year but again, they have been deathly quiet. The 734 conversions are still going full steam but all good feedstock for conversion has reportedly been bought up and is spoken for. I suppose the early AA 738 batch that is getting retired son is the most viable feedsource now, barring a collapse of a few smaller airlines in the next year (which is seeming more likely by the day).

Boeing has a BCF program for the 737-800. There have been nearly 5000 of those airframes produced, which is simply a staggering number. They'll find good feedstock from somewhere. I wouldn't be surprised to see some retired 738 airframes come out of China. If Amazon wants low time airframes, I don't think they'll come from AA.

The 767s were a different story; not nearly as much feedstock available, so take what you can get.
 
smflyer
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growth - 2018

Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:04 am

Acey559 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
Not every Amazon-leased plane is scheduled to fly every day. They have hot spares built into the schedule. On top of that, ATI generally has 255CM and 395CM available to cover scheduled maintenance and sometimes for unscheduled maintenance when they are not being used for something else, like military or other charter. 255 was used on UPS until Sunday, when it started for ONT from SDF and then ended up diverting to CVG. 395CM has been in the mix for Amazon since it came back from military duty on Saturday. This makes sense since 311 and 337 haven't moved for almost 24 hours, although one might be sitting spare. All of the 767-200s at ATI seem to be moving just fine.

ABX has the opportunity to use one of the underutilized aircraft in its fleet to cover. Of course, the UPS business took the rest of the fleet to perform, and they couldn't cover the loss of 364CM to a maintenance issue.

GTI similarly has hot spares in the schedule from among the dry-leased aircraft, and two additional maintenance spares that are not Amazon dry-leased. And the spares can fly routes normally flown by any of the 3 carriers; one can cover for the other. Given that I haven't seen anything like an aircraft down for days, I'm sure it went basically-fine, but it doesn't mean that everything was on-time.

Peak isn't over because returns have already begun, and they make up a huge after-Christmas shipping volume. But I think everyone should be able to cope from here. No major meltdowns that I'm aware of; at least none being reported publicly, among any of the major shippers (UPS, FedEx, USPS), which is nice. UPS certainly had its problems in the past. Give how strong the economy is right now (despite the stock market falling due to the Fed's inflation-paranoia-driven interest rate hikes), the volumes should be high. I notice the press doesn't want to report positive economic news for some reason, so we will have to hunt over the next few days for the actual sales/shipment volume, but I think we're gonna find that it's unparallelled.


311 is one of the aircraft having issues. It’s in SEA with what appears to be an engine issue. Hopefully it will be back up and running soon. Not sure what’s up with 337. It may be the current spare since it’s in SMF, but I’m not certain.


is it this aircraft, N795AX because FlightAware is showing it diverting back to Sacramento. https://flightaware.com/live/flight/ABX ... /KSMF/KBWI
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growth - 2018

Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:48 am

Actually, 795AX is an ABX Air-operated 767-200 on dry lease to Amazon. In other words, it's one of the Amazon Six at ABX. These aircraft are maintained under CAM's direction under a contract between Amazon and CAM (ATSG). Usually, the work is done by AMES (Airborne Maintenance and Engineering Services) as well as outstation mechanics contracted one way or another to the operating airline or AMES. The aircraft went through a heavy maintenance check at AMES at ILN from 6//5 to 7/6/18, so about 6 months ago. The aircraft hasn't had any recent diversions, but of course it can and would experience issues that would need to be fixed during its down time. Looks like it has been flying basically 2 legs of varying length every day over the last 30 days, so neither an exceptional nor trivial amount of usage.

The diversion could be for any number of reasons.

As you note, there may be a spare there at SMF in the form of an ATI aircraft, assuming that it's operable and is sitting as a regional spare. Perhaps the freight will be moved to a spare, perhaps not. Would be worth a look at any GTI, ATN or ABX flights on the same route (SMF-BWI) in the next few hours.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growth - 2018

Wed Dec 26, 2018 11:30 am

Looks like, whatever it was, they simply checked/repaired N795AX, and sent it out again. It's now on its way to BWI. Same flight number, same aircraft. Just about 5:15 late.
 
cmairplaneman
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growth - 2018

Wed Dec 26, 2018 5:30 pm

Ok N930WE is a little less than 2 hour is out of CVG. Waiting to see her! Hopefully it lands on 18L (which it probably will) and I’ll get some good photos
Glider Pilot & CVG/ILN Spotter
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growth - 2018

Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:18 pm

cmairplaneman wrote:
Ok N930WE is a little less than 2 hour is out of CVG. Waiting to see her! Hopefully it lands on 18L (which it probably will) and I’ll get some good photos


Awesome! Thanks my friend. Looking forward to seeing them!
 
cmairplaneman
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growth - 2018

Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:46 pm

Well 930 did land on 18L and got some really good photos of her landing. Will share once I get home
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wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growth - 2018

Wed Dec 26, 2018 8:29 pm

Awesome, CM!
 
cmairplaneman
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growth - 2018

Wed Dec 26, 2018 11:26 pm

Ok if you check out my Instagram page cmairplaneman, I put 2 photos of N930WE from today at CVG
Glider Pilot & CVG/ILN Spotter
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growth - 2018

Wed Dec 26, 2018 11:54 pm

cmairplaneman wrote:
Ok if you check out my Instagram page cmairplaneman, I put 2 photos of N930WE from today at CVG


Nice shots. I particularly like the smoky-wheels on touchdown in the second shot.
 
cmairplaneman
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growth - 2018

Thu Dec 27, 2018 12:27 am

wjcandee wrote:
cmairplaneman wrote:
Ok if you check out my Instagram page cmairplaneman, I put 2 photos of N930WE from today at CVG


Nice shots. I particularly like the smoky-wheels on touchdown in the second shot.
What’s your username on Instagram? I can send you more photos. I would do it here but it won’t let me
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travaz
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growth - 2018

Thu Dec 27, 2018 12:32 am

cmairplaneman wrote:
Well 930 did land on 18L and got some really good photos of her landing. Will share once I get home

:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: :D :D :D :D :D :bigthumbsup: :bigthumbsup: :bigthumbsup: :bigthumbsup: :bigthumbsup:
 
cmairplaneman
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growth - 2018

Thu Dec 27, 2018 2:23 pm

Interesting, looks like 930 is an ABX bird. Flying from CVG to ILN right now
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Acey559
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growth - 2018

Thu Dec 27, 2018 3:14 pm

cmairplaneman wrote:
Interesting, looks like 930 is an ABX bird. Flying from CVG to ILN right now


930 will be going to ATI as N382CM. Conformity work and updates to manuals/OpSpecs is done in ILN but it should be on the certificate soon.
In Dixie Land I'll take my stand to live and die in Dixie.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growth - 2018

Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:57 pm

Acey559 wrote:
cmairplaneman wrote:
Interesting, looks like 930 is an ABX bird. Flying from CVG to ILN right now


930 will be going to ATI as N382CM. Conformity work and updates to manuals/OpSpecs is done in ILN but it should be on the certificate soon.


I think the reason for CMairplaneman's comment was that the aircraft appears to have flown under an ABX flight number from CVG to ILN. Specifically, ABX930 (GB930).

Probably some kind of mistake given that they previously had said it was coming to ATI, but you never know.
 
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Acey559
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growth - 2018

Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:05 am

wjcandee wrote:
Acey559 wrote:
cmairplaneman wrote:
Interesting, looks like 930 is an ABX bird. Flying from CVG to ILN right now


930 will be going to ATI as N382CM. Conformity work and updates to manuals/OpSpecs is done in ILN but it should be on the certificate soon.


I think the reason for CMairplaneman's comment was that the aircraft appears to have flown under an ABX flight number from CVG to ILN. Specifically, ABX930 (GB930).

Probably some kind of mistake given that they previously had said it was coming to ATI, but you never know.


Hm interesting. I didn’t look up the flight so I didn’t see that. All of our manuals have been updated to reflect 382 being added to the fleet, but as you say, anything can happen.
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Acey559
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growth - 2018

Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:10 am

The only other thing I can think of is that an ABX crew was utilized to get the plane to ILN because they were available. It’s very possible that plans changed and ABX will get the plane, it just seems odd that things changed so quickly, but perhaps they need the plane in the more immediate term.
In Dixie Land I'll take my stand to live and die in Dixie.
 
cmairplaneman
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growth - 2018

Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:38 am

Acey559 wrote:
The only other thing I can think of is that an ABX crew was utilized to get the plane to ILN because they were available. It’s very possible that plans changed and ABX will get the plane, it just seems odd that things changed so quickly, but perhaps they need the plane in the more immediate term.


The idea of an ABX flight crew for this particular flight is a possibility as well.
Glider Pilot & CVG/ILN Spotter
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growth - 2018

Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:47 am

It clearly isn't on either airline's ops spec yet, having just arrived from TLV, so it could be that the flight number is just messed up.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growth - 2018

Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:57 am

Acey559 wrote:
The only other thing I can think of is that an ABX crew was utilized to get the plane to ILN because they were available. It’s very possible that plans changed and ABX will get the plane, it just seems odd that things changed so quickly, but perhaps they need the plane in the more immediate term.


Depending upon how one interprets the ABX pilot contract, once you put the plane to ABX, especially if it does some runs for DHL, it's arguable that you can't use it at ATI or Omni. LIke I say, I think there's an interpretation that invalidates this reading, but that's a plain reading of the words of the contract. So that actually gives them an incentive not to assign aircraft to ABX unless they are sure they will want it to stay there until it's retired (or until they can lease it to somebody overseas). :-)

ABX should have plenty of extra planes a couple of months from now when the DHL leases expire. :duck:
 
Apprentice
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growth - 2018

Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:51 am

Hi: Question: Who is in charge to hire ground (Mechanics) personnel, Amazon or Primeair?
Rgds
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wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growth - 2018

Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:28 am

Apprentice wrote:
Hi: Question: Who is in charge to hire ground (Mechanics) personnel, Amazon or Primeair?
Rgds


Neither. The flight operations for Amazon Air (the actual name of the unit that hires the "Prime Air"-painted aircraft) are conducted by three airlines: ABX Air, Air Transport International (ATI) and Atlas Air. Ground handling at almost all stations is arranged by LGSTX, a division of ATSG, which owns airlines ABX Air and Air Transport International. At CVG, the main sorting hub, I believe that ground handling is arranged by DHL. Each airline (Atlas, ABX, ATI) hires casual mechanics in outstations. Routine maintenance is handled by each airline. For ABX and ATI, at certain stations this is provided by Airborne Maintenance and Engineering Services (AMES), which also is responsible for heavy maintenance on the ABX and ATI aircraft. AMES has a facility at Wilmington, OH (ILN) where it does heavy maintenance and other maintenance on most of the aircraft owned by CAM (Cargo Aircraft Management), an ATSG subsidiary, which includes all of the aircraft flown by ABX and ATI, as well as an equivalent number leased to airlines around the world. Atlas Air supervises the maintenance of the aircraft that it flies, retains casual mechanics at outstations and/or makes other arrangements for routine aircraft overnights, etc. It has much of its heavy maintenance performed these days at Flightstar at VQQ in Jacksonville, FL.

If you are looking for mechanic jobs, here are some links:
https://www.abxair-jobs.com/
https://www.airtransport-jobs.com/
http://www.atlasairworldwide.com/career ... atlas-air/

AMES has a number of unlicensed mechanic jobs available (i.e. apprentices), as well as many jobs available for folks with an A&P license, most of which seem to be at ILN: https://www.airbornemx-jobs.com/jobs.asp

At certain outstations like RFD, ABE, BDL, BWI, MSP (Rockford, IL, Allentown, PA, Windsor Locks, CT, Baltimore, MD, Minneapolis, MN), etc., LGSTX has hired Pinnacle Logistics to provide ground handlers, marshallers, cargo loaders, etc. https://www.pinnaclelogistics.com/careers/ PInnacle used to be known for its trucking and warehousing operations, primarily in Texas, with ground handling a secondary business. Now, its relationship with LGSTX (and therefore indirectly with Amazon Air) has it deeply-involved in moving freight into and out of on-airport facilities where it builds and breaks down pallets and containers for Amazon Air-leased aircraft, unloads and reloads the aircraft, marshals them in and out, etc. It is one company that has benefitted mightily from providing services to Amazon Air through LGSTX.

Ground handling at ONT and RIV is handled by Majestic Terminal Services. https://www.majesticterminalservices.com/careers
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growth - 2018

Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:40 am

So here's a question for our pilots...

I know that one big issue with the upcoming 737-800s is going to be conversion commonality. That is, each of the five-or-more proposed solutions has a different setup, including significant issues like position of the cargo door and loading plan owing to different expected weight and balance parameters. The experience with the earlier generation 737 conversions involved some of this; these apparently will have more. It has the interesting effect of requiring more-than-trivially-different procedures depending on which conversion house's 737-800"F" one is loading. Word around the conversion industry is that this is going to give many carriers a strong incentive to stick with one conversion house for their whole 737-800 fleet, like FedEx did with the 757. It also means that resale values and lease rates will be affected by which conversion solution ends up being most popular, as mixed fleets will -- according to this thinking -- lead to significant operational complexity in ground handling and aircraft loading, so the more popular conversion will have more potential takers. Kind of a Betamax vs VHS issue, for those who remember what that was. A solution could therefore be the "best" in terms of quality/comfort/capacity/etc. and yet not the most-adopted because of its initial price.

So I am curious about the 767-300s. There is an IAI/Bedek solution and a Boeing solution. What I am wondering is whether there is a significant difference in loading procedures for the two. ATSG flies only the IAI solution while Atlas flies both. Candidly, I have heard a lot more from Atlas pilots about the minor PITA caused by having to be aware of differences in the cockpit that arise from the fact that their 767-300 converted fleet is drawn from many different original passenger carriers. I have heard nothing about having to double-check the loading plan and weights and balances depending on whether one is in a BDSF or a BCF. Of course, these issues may be more of a matter for the ground handling firm and its procedures than for pilots checking W&B paperwork. It is just interesting that it seems to be such a big deal with the 737-800 and its five-or-so potential solutions when I really haven't heard the issue discussed with regard to the 767-300.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growth - 2018

Fri Dec 28, 2018 12:08 pm

Just had a little fun looking at the original airline to which each of Atlas's Amazon Air fleet was delivered. Thanks planespotters-dot-net!

Of course, because many of these aircraft were leased from GECAS, etc., by the original airline, the lessor may have provided a similarly-configured aircraft to more than one airline. Or maybe the aircraft was on a long-term financing lease and was customized to the particular airline as far as the cockpit went. Don't know.

But here is to whom they were delivered new:

Canadian 2
SAS 1
Asiana 2
Aeroflot 4
Air Seychelles 1
Airtours 3
Sobelair 1
Air France 1
Lan Chile 1
KLM 4
VIetnam Air 1

Of the Amazon Air 767-300s at ATI:
AA 3
ANZ 2
QANTAS 3

The non-Amazon-dry-leased 767-300s (4 at the moment) at ATI are all ex-AA. Looking at the CAM 767-300 fleet generally going forward, obviously there will be two or three ex-ANZ aircraft coming on line (930WE, 730WE and maybe 830WE), after which all or almost-all will be ex-AA for the forseeable future.

And if anyone is interested, the 767-200 fleet at ATI is 3 AA, 3 DL and 1 ANA.
 
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Spacepope
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growth - 2018

Fri Dec 28, 2018 1:48 pm

The 737-800 conversion program, if it indeed happens for Amazon, (Fedex is also rumored to be interested) is a puzzler. wjcandee has mentioned up to 5 conversion programs, however at the moment there are just 3 viable ones. Boeing has basically taken their knowledge of the C-40 program and is churning out a slow trickle (a few per year) right now, however with the Chinese certification of the -800 P2F this week, that may pick up. Bedek has popped out a few -700s for Alaska but again that line is moving at a trickle too. Lack of feedstock or demand?

The confusing one to me is the AEI program, which was supposed to be flying by now. The company itself is churning out 734, MD80 and CRJ conversions at a really good clip so it could be they have their plate full at the moment. The conversion itself, when they finish it, will no doubt lean heavily on their very successful 737 Classic programs. Why the delay here though with the rollout and certification program? This doesn't seem like it should be that complicated of a program and being late to market has no obvious advantages.The 734 program will be winding down soon though, so perhaps more resources then.

Feedstock is also interesting. We are all aware of AA's stated plan of dropping the early batch of -800s, but that's not quite enough to satisfy projected short term demand. Gol? United is adding used A319s (as is AA) so retirement of their early Continental -800 fleet doesn't seem really likely either. Beyond that it's smaller subfleet territory again, which could get messy.

What are the other 737 P2F programs in the works?
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chrisnh
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growth - 2018

Fri Dec 28, 2018 1:49 pm

This is a nice thread, full of useful information and nary a bit of bickering. I'm near MHT, so I've not paid much attention to it since Amazon's planes don't fly here. But just for the sake of seeing information on 'new leases on life' for these 767-300s, I'll be a reader for sure in 2019. Thanks!
 
MO11
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growth - 2018

Fri Dec 28, 2018 2:11 pm

CAM bought two Delta 767s (CF6) that were parked at San Bernadino many months ago. Are these just for engines/parts?
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growth - 2018

Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:00 pm

By the way, I noticed that CAM on December 10 picked up ten 400-series prime numbers with an AZ suffix. They only had I think 4 prime number reservations left in the 300-series (having skipped 317, 349, 373, 383 because some were taken), so the next ten Amazon 767s will move into the 400-series. As with the 300s, they skipped some that were taken: there are 17 prime numbers between 400 and 500; CAM reserved 10.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growth - 2018

Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:13 pm

MO11 wrote:
CAM bought two Delta 767s (CF6) that were parked at San Bernadino many months ago. Are these just for engines/parts?


Is that 1501P and 153DL? They're relatively low-cycle (21,000-ish) but high-hours (over 110,000). They're still registered to DL, so I don't know what's up with them.

They are similar in cycles/hours to 354AA, which CAM registered and recently flew to ILN.

In contrast, the oldest of the new batch of AA aircraft that they are buying is about 102,000 hours and about 16,500 cycles. That 5000 cycle (and 10,000 hour) difference might mean something to them, or it might not.
Last edited by wjcandee on Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
MO11
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growth - 2018

Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:16 pm

wjcandee wrote:
MO11 wrote:
CAM bought two Delta 767s (CF6) that were parked at San Bernadino many months ago. Are these just for engines/parts?


Is that 1501P and 153DL? They're relatively low-cycle (21,000-ish) but high-hours (over 110,000). They're still registered to DL, so I don't know what's up with them.


Yes. Registrations take up to 60 days. Bill of sale was December 21.
 
CALMSP
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growth - 2018

Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:17 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Apprentice wrote:
Hi: Question: Who is in charge to hire ground (Mechanics) personnel, Amazon or Primeair?
Rgds


Neither. The flight operations for Amazon Air (the actual name of the unit that hires the "Prime Air"-painted aircraft) are conducted by three airlines: ABX Air, Air Transport International (ATI) and Atlas Air. Ground handling at almost all stations is arranged by LGSTX, a division of ATSG, which owns airlines ABX Air and Air Transport International. At CVG, the main sorting hub, I believe that ground handling is arranged by DHL. Each airline (Atlas, ABX, ATI) hires casual mechanics in outstations. Routine maintenance is handled by each airline. For ABX and ATI, at certain stations this is provided by Airborne Maintenance and Engineering Services (AMES), which also is responsible for heavy maintenance on the ABX and ATI aircraft. AMES has a facility at Wilmington, OH (ILN) where it does heavy maintenance and other maintenance on most of the aircraft owned by CAM (Cargo Aircraft Management), an ATSG subsidiary, which includes all of the aircraft flown by ABX and ATI, as well as an equivalent number leased to airlines around the world. Atlas Air supervises the maintenance of the aircraft that it flies, retains casual mechanics at outstations and/or makes other arrangements for routine aircraft overnights, etc. It has much of its heavy maintenance performed these days at Flightstar at VQQ in Jacksonville, FL.

If you are looking for mechanic jobs, here are some links:
https://www.abxair-jobs.com/
https://www.airtransport-jobs.com/
http://www.atlasairworldwide.com/career ... atlas-air/

AMES has a number of unlicensed mechanic jobs available (i.e. apprentices), as well as many jobs available for folks with an A&P license, most of which seem to be at ILN: https://www.airbornemx-jobs.com/jobs.asp

At certain outstations like RFD, ABE, BDL, BWI, MSP (Rockford, IL, Allentown, PA, Windsor Locks, CT, Baltimore, MD, Minneapolis, MN), etc., LGSTX has hired Pinnacle Logistics to provide ground handlers, marshallers, cargo loaders, etc. https://www.pinnaclelogistics.com/careers/ PInnacle used to be known for its trucking and warehousing operations, primarily in Texas, with ground handling a secondary business. Now, its relationship with LGSTX (and therefore indirectly with Amazon Air) has it deeply-involved in moving freight into and out of on-airport facilities where it builds and breaks down pallets and containers for Amazon Air-leased aircraft, unloads and reloads the aircraft, marshals them in and out, etc. It is one company that has benefitted mightily from providing services to Amazon Air through LGSTX.

Ground handling at ONT and RIV is handled by Majestic Terminal Services. https://www.majesticterminalservices.com/careers



ONT is also run by LGSTX, who then outsources all activities to Majestic.
 
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Spacepope
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growth - 2018

Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:42 pm

wjcandee wrote:
MO11 wrote:
CAM bought two Delta 767s (CF6) that were parked at San Bernadino many months ago. Are these just for engines/parts?


Is that 1501P and 153DL? They're relatively low-cycle (21,000-ish) but high-hours (over 110,000). They're still registered to DL, so I don't know what's up with them.

They are similar in cycles/hours to 354AA, which CAM registered and recently flew to ILN.

In contrast, the oldest of the new batch of AA aircraft that they are buying is about 102,000 hours and about 16,500 cycles. That 5000 cycle (and 10,000 hour) difference might mean something to them, or it might not.


It'd depend on whether the engines are included with the sale. DL just bought 6 Boeing-owned MD-11Fs parked at VCV recently solely for the CF-6s. I'd be really surprised if they sold on non-completely expired engines if any at all.

Knowing how DL eeks every last bit of use from its fleet, these SBD frames are probably in need of a D check if they were to be converted. With the former AA fleet coming in beginning after the new year (and probably AA's entire CF-6 spares stockpile) I doubt these DL frames are for conversion.

But then again I've been wrong just about every time before.
The last of the famous international playboys

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