AirbusMDCFAN
Topic Author
Posts: 497
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2016 10:51 am

Spirit Airlines Closes In on a New Pilot Contract & What It Means for Investors

Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:09 pm

Link/Source: https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/spir ... 00297.html


"Labor tensions have been a recurring problem at ultra-low-cost carrier Spirit Airlines (NYSE: SAVE) in recent years. In 2010, pilots walked off the job for several days. That's the only strike experienced by the entire U.S. airline industry in the past decade."

"More recently, Spirit Airlines pilots have become vocal in criticizing the company's management, as contract talks dragged on for years with little progress being made. These frustrations boiled over last May, with most of its pilots refusing to pick up overtime work. This forced Spirit Airlines to cancel hundreds of flights, angering many of its customers."

"However, a tentative agreement has finally been reached with its pilot union for a five-year contract."

"Pilots are set to get big raises":

"Under the recently completed tentative agreement, Spirit Airlines has offered its pilots an immediate wage increase averaging 43%, according to the pilot union. It will also make double-digit direct contributions to pilots' retirement plans. (Previously, there was a 100% match for pilots' contributions up to 9% of their annual pay.) Spirit also agreed to pay a ratification bonus of $75 million that will be divided among its roughly 1,800 pilots."

How many other airlines aside from JetBlue are paying carefull attention to the NK pilot contract talks.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 5042
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Spirit Airlines Closes In on a New Pilot Contract & What It Means for Investors

Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:36 pm

Doing the math quickly, that looks like $243/ hour for a 320 pilot vs. $251 for a 737 that Alaska pilots recently got from arbitration. That may be pointing to market levels for non AA/DL/UA/FedEx/UPS.
 
msycajun
Posts: 1027
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 4:13 am

Re: Spirit Airlines Closes In on a New Pilot Contract & What It Means for Investors

Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:18 pm

Looks like the pay is in the neighborhood, but a lot of pilots are not pleased with the other components of the contract. I think it's very possible that it does not pass.
 
ShinyAndChrome
Posts: 189
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:53 am

Re: Spirit Airlines Closes In on a New Pilot Contract & What It Means for Investors

Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:29 pm

msycajun wrote:
Looks like the pay is in the neighborhood, but a lot of pilots are not pleased with the other components of the contract. I think it's very possible that it does not pass.


Indeed. They don’t get the same degree of attention since they aren’t as quantifiable as pay, but work and scheduling rules often end up becoming the thorniest sticking points in labor negotiations.
 
767driver
Posts: 59
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 3:42 pm

Re: Spirit Airlines Closes In on a New Pilot Contract & What It Means for Investors

Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:29 pm

msycajun wrote:
Looks like the pay is in the neighborhood, but a lot of pilots are not pleased with the other components of the contract. I think it's very possible that it does not pass.


Everyone isn't always happy. There are always things we don't like in every contract, that doesn't mean it won't pass.
 
Varsity1
Posts: 1845
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 4:55 am

Re: Spirit Airlines Closes In on a New Pilot Contract & What It Means for Investors

Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:09 pm

Next up: Frontier or JetBlue?
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
User avatar
Super80Fan
Posts: 1406
Joined: Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:14 am

Re: Spirit Airlines Closes In on a New Pilot Contract & What It Means for Investors

Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:40 pm

Keep in mind (and this is not me, but a Spirit pilot saying this) that if they vote this down, they are exposed and will have to accept giving up something in return. Dragging this out this long is only bad news for the pilots.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 17366
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Spirit Airlines Closes In on a New Pilot Contract & What It Means for Investors

Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:06 pm

767driver wrote:
msycajun wrote:
Looks like the pay is in the neighborhood, but a lot of pilots are not pleased with the other components of the contract. I think it's very possible that it does not pass.


Everyone isn't always happy. There are always things we don't like in every contract, that doesn't mean it won't pass.

As long as pilots realize they get paid the old rates and work the old rules until the new contract passes. Current cap $185:
https://centreforaviation.com/insights/ ... ars-320180

How long do they want to hold out? In particular as they'll loose the press coverage. They should try to negotiate, but senior pilots will like the 30%+ increase in pay.



It looks like we know the pay rates for narrowbody pilots for now. Considering (using above source) AA is at $263, DL $256, and UA at $264, I think we see the market rate for a A320 captain is in the $240 to $265 range. The pilot shortage is here, good to see them paid a professional's wages.

I personally think G4 at $222 and B6 at $219 will have to pay up.

Super80Fan wrote:
Keep in mind (and this is not me, but a Spirit pilot saying this) that if they vote this down, they are exposed and will have to accept giving up something in return. Dragging this out this long is only bad news for the pilots.

Agreed. Turning down a competitive offer destroys PR. They should have worked the other rules early.

As a side note:
WN pilots gripe, but at $258, they are in family for a narrowbody pilot. If they want more, they'll have to give up something (e.g., redeye flights).

Oh, when looking at various sites, I see Trans states is offering $44k signing bonuses (less at say Express jet). I see $34 to $50 is now starting pay at a regional. Much better.

Wow, I saw more than a few guaranteeing pay the first few years at or above $60k. Not great pay considering the training/effort, but so much better than just a few years ago.

At least the union at Spirit has agreed to present the deal:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-spir ... SKBN1FK3AE

43% pay increase per article, so junior pilots have incentive!

Lightsaber
You know nothing John Snow.
 
T773ER
Posts: 281
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:13 am

Re: Spirit Airlines Closes In on a New Pilot Contract & What It Means for Investors

Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:26 pm

lightsaber wrote:
It looks like we know the pay rates for narrowbody pilots for now. Considering (using above source) AA is at $263, DL $256, and UA at $264, I think we see the market rate for a A320 captain is in the $240 to $265 range. The pilot shortage is here, good to see them paid a professional's wages.


As of 2018 DL's top narrowbody pay is $273, that source is outdated.
 
User avatar
william
Posts: 3056
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 1:31 pm

Re: Spirit Airlines Closes In on a New Pilot Contract & What It Means for Investors

Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:29 pm

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/spirit/

Or one can go to pilot forum and read what Spirit Pilots think about the deal.
 
ThePinnacleKid
Posts: 528
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2005 9:47 am

Re: Spirit Airlines Closes In on a New Pilot Contract & What It Means for Investors

Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:01 pm

Pay is such a small small thing that isn't even what it seems when it comes to pilot contracts... it also gets into HOW that pay level is paid out... soft time, daily rigs, etc... the work rules are usually the MOST important part of a contract.. Spirit has under current contract some of the lowest pay but some of the absolute BEST work rules in the industry.. that's why you're seeing them very upset with this offer. It guts the soft stuff most people don't understand... the "work rules" stuff. That stuff actually can make or break the physical dollar pay compensation. Exceptionally hard to make relative to those that don't work under these CBA's. That said, you shouldn't think it will pass just because pay is on par with Alaska... their own APC thread is already showing a 7 to 3 "NO" sentiment.
"Sonny, did we land? or were we shot down?"
 
ilovelamp
Posts: 288
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:45 am

Re: Spirit Airlines Closes In on a New Pilot Contract & What It Means for Investors

Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:12 pm

T773ER wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
It looks like we know the pay rates for narrowbody pilots for now. Considering (using above source) AA is at $263, DL $256, and UA at $264, I think we see the market rate for a A320 captain is in the $240 to $265 range. The pilot shortage is here, good to see them paid a professional's wages.


As of 2018 DL's top narrowbody pay is $273, that source is outdated.


If we were to include the 757 in the narrow body category, then it’s technically $284.80 at the top end. Comparing apples to apples, Delta's top A321 CEO rate is $274.52. The NEO rates will have to be negotiated before they are start flying there.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 17366
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Spirit Airlines Closes In on a New Pilot Contract & What It Means for Investors

Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:21 pm

Further reading:
1. Pilots do not like the recall terms. You cease accruing seniority one year after furlough. Recall before hiring, so if you need time to return, you cannot take time making a decision as a later return means a drop in seniority. My commment: I work in an industry without seniority or any recall...
2. Losing vacation conflict
3. Be required to remain at the airport when Scheduling has reasonable cause to believe it will need to reschedule. (Instead of sent to hotel)


But I also see the pilots getting worked up because they do not know how to read a contract. You are not allowed to picket on a company premise, that is just standard (stay on the public sidewalk/street and do not stay in the driveway). Its in the contract because if you picket on private land (company owned), you are trespassing.

Some of the other stuff has been standard employee contract stuff for a decade. Pilots, its time you understand what working to process really means.
Negative social media disclosing company information even if spouse's facebook page? Yep, a standard at all large companies.
I also see a lot of pilots getting worked up because they don't understand legal precedence in section 1.E of the contract.


william wrote:
https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/spirit/

Or one can go to pilot forum and read what Spirit Pilots think about the deal.

Majority Nays per that poll. 77 to 30. But such a small sample is going to find the most emotional. We'll have to see how they vote. Maybe like some airlines with improvements, or like others where it drags out.



T773ER wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
It looks like we know the pay rates for narrowbody pilots for now. Considering (using above source) AA is at $263, DL $256, and UA at $264, I think we see the market rate for a A320 captain is in the $240 to $265 range. The pilot shortage is here, good to see them paid a professional's wages.


As of 2018 DL's top narrowbody pay is $273, that source is outdated.

757? I used A320. We expect on airline to be high. Not always a good thing for the long term.

Any which way, pilot salaries have shot up in the last few years. This will either bring in more pilots or small cities will be cut. The later has a tendency to have a political solution which none of us would like.

My interpretation is the pay offer is within industry standard. My interpretation is Spirit went for some rules AMR succeeded in securing.

Let us see how the vote goes. It sounds like copilot pay is poor. That is silly... That is what attracts new hires. But spirit would know what they need to offer in the current 'pilot shortage.' If it isn't enough, pilots will work elsewhere.

Lightsaber
You know nothing John Snow.
 
T773ER
Posts: 281
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:13 am

Re: Spirit Airlines Closes In on a New Pilot Contract & What It Means for Investors

Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:30 pm

lightsaber wrote:


T773ER wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
It looks like we know the pay rates for narrowbody pilots for now. Considering (using above source) AA is at $263, DL $256, and UA at $264, I think we see the market rate for a A320 captain is in the $240 to $265 range. The pilot shortage is here, good to see them paid a professional's wages.


As of 2018 DL's top narrowbody pay is $273, that source is outdated.

757? I used A320. We expect on airline to be high. Not always a good thing for the long term.



I used A320/737-800 as well. The other posted pointed out that narrowbody includes the 757 at Delta which is where the $284 comes in. Like you said though, apples to apples and I agree.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 17366
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Spirit Airlines Closes In on a New Pilot Contract & What It Means for Investors

Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:32 pm

I thank you for the link. Here is a link to an image of the pay:
https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/spir ... ation.html

I read the topline, the details are fascinating. Top pay goes to $235, not the prior quoted numbers. So I stand by my industry standard numbers above.
I just now state this is below standard. Now, only a little for the most senior pilots (Yes, someone will quote the highest rate, no one expects NK to be industry leading. That will be DL, UA, or AA, not AS, B6, NK, G4, or F9.

I also see first officer pay is... Low. Low by about $10 ot $20/hr. I'm confused... Either there are more pilots out there than I realize, or this is a really bad offer for half the pilot workforce. Huh...
Not the offer nor the percentages I expected after going through the details.

So my prediction is a rejection. I'm into game theory. Game theory says you must be competitive for new hires, 3 years after new hire, and senior Captains. Sorry to everyone else, but the fact pilots stick around with little to no promotion at AA, DL, and UA shows the others don't matter. :( I have 3 years after new hire as those people aren't invested enough to not jump ship. They now have another 1,500+ hours of flying under their belt, so they can shop their resume for a better deal.

This isn't a charity, it is business. My current employer doesn't offer enough to new hires. So... college hires come in, build up 2 to 3 years of experience, and then get their career job. Eventually pay will be done right... It always manages to correct itself as long as people are willing to jump ship.

Lightsaber
You know nothing John Snow.
 
767driver
Posts: 59
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 3:42 pm

Re: Spirit Airlines Closes In on a New Pilot Contract & What It Means for Investors

Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:36 pm

william wrote:
https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/spirit/

Or one can go to pilot forum and read what Spirit Pilots think about the deal.


Half Of those people aren't even Spirit pilots and the other half are the same 10-15 people talking in circles.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 17366
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Spirit Airlines Closes In on a New Pilot Contract & What It Means for Investors

Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:42 pm

767driver wrote:
william wrote:
https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/spirit/

Or one can go to pilot forum and read what Spirit Pilots think about the deal.


Half Of those people aren't even Spirit pilots and the other half are the same 10-15 people talking in circles.

10-15 people talking in circles... It is a good thing we never have that here on a.net. ;)


Seriously, the pay is a little low. Work rules are slightly worse than before. And pay isn't the headline number. So the question is, what will the pilots do? There is no pay raise until a contract is accepted.
You know nothing John Snow.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos