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Beechtobus
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Greenland Hosting a Mid-Atlantic Hub?

Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:00 pm

As the title states, does anyone feel Greenland (Kangerlussuaq specifically) could one day host a Mid Atlantic hub, the likes of what WOW and Icelandair do in Keflavik? Would Greenland air or another startup ever be up for connecting passengers there? I know the facilities there would have to be expanded, but if its a money making, marketable venture, why not?

I know that the Iceland stopover is a big advantage to hubbing in KEF and that amazing sites like the blue lagoon, Reykjavik, and the Reykjanes are close by road. Kangerlussuaq is pretty much just an isolated airport that is only accessible via commuter aircraft and helicopter connections to other towns and settlements in Greenland, so the airport would likely just simply be a hub and not a stopover point. Could Greenlandair, however, offer a free or cheap pass to hop around on the local flights for a few days as their rendition of a Greenland stopover?

I think Kangerlussuaq is the only feasible airport as they have a 9000+ foot runway and is relatively south. Would weather in Kangerlussuaq limit the feasablilty of a hub there? Thule also has a very long runway but is likely way too far north. Narsarsuaq is on the southern tip of the island but only has about 6000 feet of runway so range would be a limiting factor. Any other airport in Greenland cannot support large enough aircraft.

Any thoughts, discussion would be appreciated, thanks.
 
mcdu
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Re: Greenland Hosting a Mid-Atlantic Hub?

Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:03 pm

The weather there would make a hub unsustainable for reliable operations. The same for KEF. The strategy of using KEF as a hub is ill conceived in my opinion.
 
toxtethogrady
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Re: Greenland Hosting a Mid-Atlantic Hub?

Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:07 pm

Greenland is too far west. Keflavik is near the midpoint...
 
Themotionman
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Re: Greenland Hosting a Mid-Atlantic Hub?

Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:15 pm

KEF has a large tourism market to support it. Any North America-Europe hub would be 99% connections and I'm not sure Greenland/Denmark would be willing to pump billions into creating a new connecting airline like Qatar :lol: . But you never know, those 500 people in Kangarlussuaq could surprise us ;)
 
drdisque
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Re: Greenland Hosting a Mid-Atlantic Hub?

Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:16 pm

It would also be hard to get enough employees to staff any sort of hub operation in Greenland.
 
santi319
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Re: Greenland Hosting a Mid-Atlantic Hub?

Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:22 pm

mcdu wrote:
The weather there would make a hub unsustainable for reliable operations. The same for KEF. The strategy of using KEF as a hub is ill conceived in my opinion.


The weather isn't as bad as Greenland in KEF, Thanks in part to the Gulfstream..
 
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flyPIT
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Re: Greenland Hosting a Mid-Atlantic Hub?

Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:27 pm

mcdu wrote:
The weather there would make a hub unsustainable for reliable operations. The same for KEF. The strategy of using KEF as a hub is ill conceived in my opinion.

So ill conceived that Icelandair has successfully been using KEF as a hub for decades.
FLYi
 
studentdrbev
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Re: Greenland Hosting a Mid-Atlantic Hub?

Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:31 pm

Unless any airline wants to fly a turboprop, C - Series or ERJ E2s transatlantic, I don't see a necessity to create a mid Atlantic hub .

That said, it would be a dream come true for private aircrafts esp. single & twin pistons and small charter planes for crossing the Atlantic. Furthermore, it can boost the tourism without pushing the limits.
Last edited by studentdrbev on Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Beechtobus
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Re: Greenland Hosting a Mid-Atlantic Hub?

Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:32 pm

Themotionman wrote:
KEF has a large tourism market to support it. Any North America-Europe hub would be 99% connections and I'm not sure Greenland/Denmark would be willing to pump billions into creating a new connecting airline like Qatar :lol: . But you never know, those 500 people in Kangarlussuaq could surprise us ;)


But that was my question/point. In Iceland tourism was nowhere near where it is today even just 25 years ago, and the little bit of tourism they did have was largely a result of the Icelandair Stopover. Could Greenland do the same for their island as Iceland did via Icelandair? And why does it have to be a new airline? Greenlandair already exists and knows the area quite well. I know there are other likely inhibiting factors such as getting out to tour Greenland would involve flying out of Kangerlussauq instead of just hopping on a bus or getting a rental car, but if marketed right and if perhaps a few day pass was offered good for the local flights as part of the transatlantic airfare, I think it would be a big start to Greenland tourism, much like lcelandair did for Iceland.
 
COSPN
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Re: Greenland Hosting a Mid-Atlantic Hub?

Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:42 pm

Do they have a hospital there that can treat 100 injured crash victims ? I think it would be too hard to certify
 
Beechtobus
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Re: Greenland Hosting a Mid-Atlantic Hub?

Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:55 pm

COSPN wrote:
Do they have a hospital there that can treat 100 injured crash victims ? I think it would be too hard to certify


Greenlandair flies its A330 in and out currently, so I don’t think that would be an issue. Perhaps hotel rooms for large scale weather delays and cancellations may be though.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Greenland Hosting a Mid-Atlantic Hub?

Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:58 pm

toxtethogrady wrote:
Greenland is too far west. Keflavik is near the midpoint...


Not true. Of course it depends on your airport of origin and destination, but generally Iceland is much closer to Europe than it is to America.

Let's say you're flying from London Heathrow to Chicago O'Hare. Distances are:
London Heathrow - Keflavik 1898 km
Keflavik - Chicago O'Hare 4730 km

London Heathrow - Narsarsuaq 2908 km
Narsarsuaq - Chicago O'Hare 3535 km

So Narsarsuaq is even closer to London than it is to Chicago, but still closer to the middle.

Another example, Frankfurt to New York JFK. Distances are:
Frankfurt - Keflavik 2404 km
Keflavik - New York JFK 4167 km

Frankfurt - Narsarsuaq 3495 km
Narsarsuaq - New York JFK 2983 km

In this case Narsarsuaq is slightly closer to New York than it is to Frankfurt, but not much. It's pretty much in the middle.
 
thgsr08
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Re: Greenland Hosting a Mid-Atlantic Hub?

Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:18 pm

It'd be a clever move, however there're other points to review:
- weather conditions?
- local tourism and infrastructure?
- in case of delays or cancellations, there'd be hotels and restaurants to provide service to travellers?
- investiments - who'd do it?
:checkeredflag:
 
Kilopond
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Re: Greenland Hosting a Mid-Atlantic Hub?

Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:30 pm

Greenland??? :eek: That's just weird! At that remote place you might be able to source some seal meat and fish but that's about it. Everything else would have to be shipped either from North America or Europe and any waste would have to be carried back. There aren't even enough people available to staff hub operations. Of course, all that could be solved one way or another, but it would be EXTREMELY expensive.
 
mcdu
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Re: Greenland Hosting a Mid-Atlantic Hub?

Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:35 pm

flyPIT wrote:
mcdu wrote:
The weather there would make a hub unsustainable for reliable operations. The same for KEF. The strategy of using KEF as a hub is ill conceived in my opinion.

So ill conceived that Icelandair has successfully been using KEF as a hub for decades.[/]

I often see KEF below landing mins. Ice air doesn’t have as robust of a winter schedule as summer. Also look at al the WOW irregular ops posts. KEF is not a great connection point due to conditions
 
Galwayman
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Re: Greenland Hosting a Mid-Atlantic Hub?

Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:35 pm

KEF, DUB and LIS have cornered the market already
 
YIMBY
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Re: Greenland Hosting a Mid-Atlantic Hub?

Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:52 pm

Northeastmost Canada would be better located. Would have range for 321LR to most Europe and North America.
NYC does not need a hub in the middle anyway.

Whether weather permits, and suitable towns nearby, wiser can tell.
 
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NickolayAv
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Re: Greenland Hosting a Mid-Atlantic Hub?

Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:58 pm

I think they could do it just on a much, much smaller scale than Icelandair maybe utilizing some C-Series and 737Max they could add a few flights to each side of the Atlantic.
But realistically I don't see it happening, this would require a fairly large investment which will be hard to do, there is a small population, they would need to drastically improve infrastructure, make tourism much less expensive there, and on top of that weather isn't the greatest there.
"If you want to be a millionaire, start with a billion dollars and launch a new airline"-Richard Branson
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Greenland Hosting a Mid-Atlantic Hub?

Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:04 pm

IROPS would involve diversions to either Iceland, Newfoundland or Frobisher Bay. None really very accommodating. There’s just no need for a hub in the NAT region save Icelandic Air.

GF
 
Mortyman
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Re: Greenland Hosting a Mid-Atlantic Hub?

Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:10 pm

Would there perhaps be enviromental objections with increased airline activity in this area ?
 
mikejepp
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Re: Greenland Hosting a Mid-Atlantic Hub?

Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:31 pm

It seems a hub like this would make most sense for an operation using narrowbody aircraft (321neo LR) to connect smaller cities in North America and Europe.

Greenland is a non-starter. Absolute bare minimum requirements would be an airport and city with infrastructure to handle flights. Ignoring economics. You at least need to have workers to work at the airport, an airport capable of handling the flights, hotels, etc. There needs to be an airport with available fuel, nearby alternate airports, a long enough all weather runway, etc.

If I was going to pick a city for this, it wouldn't be Greenland, it'd be YYT - St Johns.

It meets the bare minimum requirements for being able to operationally function as a hub and, unlike most of the other choices, is within range of essentially all of Europe and N America with an A321LR. 3400nm, which should be easily doable, gets you all of N America and as far as Moscow and Istanbul the other direction, as well as the northern part of South America, and northwest Africa, along with all the destinations in the Atlantic.

Not to mention, with slightly lesser ranged aircraft (737max and 321/321neo), you still get a large chunk of those destinations and also have quite a bit of population within much shorter ranges (eastern Canada and USA) to support the hub.
 
Kilopond
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Re: Greenland Hosting a Mid-Atlantic Hub?

Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:46 pm

YIMBY wrote:
Northeastmost Canada would be better located. Would have range for 321LR to most Europe and North America.[...]


Exactly! Places like Halifax have a decent local infrastructure and they would be able to draw a certain number of tourists from Europe at the same time. (Greenland is FAR too expensive. No average person can afford an apple, an egg and a beer out there).
 
Beechtobus
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Re: Greenland Hosting a Mid-Atlantic Hub?

Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:41 pm

Kilopond wrote:
YIMBY wrote:
Northeastmost Canada would be better located. Would have range for 321LR to most Europe and North America.[...]


Exactly! Places like Halifax have a decent local infrastructure and they would be able to draw a certain number of tourists from Europe at the same time. (Greenland is FAR too expensive. No average person can afford an apple, an egg and a beer out there).


That makes sense, I didn’t think of the cost of goods/services aspect there. Iceland is hellaciously expensive, I imagine Greenland could only be worse.
 
ODwyerPW
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Re: Greenland Hosting a Mid-Atlantic Hub?

Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:46 pm

In Nuuk, they will start expansion of their only runway this year at GOH (Nuuk Godthab). Currently, the runway is some 950m or 3000ft in length. The plan is to take it to the max length allowable under the terrain (mountain at one end, sea at the other) of 2200m or 7200ft. This will open up many possibilities (although, I haven't heard planes of widening it, as it's only 30m at the moment). Nuuk is the capital and largest city in Greenland with a population of, wait for it, 17316.

The weather is not as favorable in Nuuk as it is in Kangerlussuaq (which takes large planes and is current Air Greenland's base), but at least there is something to do. Kangerlussuaq is soooo isolated from everything (although if MuskOxen spotting is your thing... you'd be in luck).

Actually, found this web link: http://kair.gl/en/projects/nuuk/ . Here it shows they will actually build an entirely new runway just off to the side of the existing. it will be wider.
Last edited by ODwyerPW on Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
learning never stops.
 
superjeff
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Re: Greenland Hosting a Mid-Atlantic Hub?

Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:51 pm

santi319 wrote:
mcdu wrote:
The weather there would make a hub unsustainable for reliable operations. The same for KEF. The strategy of using KEF as a hub is ill conceived in my opinion.


The weather isn't as bad as Greenland in KEF, Thanks in part to the Gulfstream..


Very true. I was always told "Iceland is green; Greenland is ice".
 
777PHX
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Re: Greenland Hosting a Mid-Atlantic Hub?

Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:11 am

NickolayAv wrote:
But realistically I don't see it happening, this would require a fairly large investment which will be hard to do, there is a small population, they would need to drastically improve infrastructure, make tourism much less expensive there, and on top of that weather isn't the greatest there.


That’s the biggest problem I see.

#1. Kanglurassoig has 499 residents and they’re almost entirely uneducated Innuits that primarily spend their time hunting for sustenance. Not exactly the sort you want managing assets worth millions of dollars.

#2. Infrastructure at the airport. Looking at Google maps, there’s a bunch of nothing at that airport other than the longish runway. There would be a substantial capital investment needed in order for this to work.

#3. Basic commodity cost. I’d have to wager the cost of purchasing jet fuel in Greenland would be hideously expensive considering fuel has to come in by ship, and that can only happen in the summer time. Likewise for anything else. It’s either coming by plane and exorbitantly expensive or you’re waiting until the port opens back up. I mean, I guess you could tanker fuel if you had the ability, but that sort of negates a lot of the advantage of the hub and operating economical narrowbodies.
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Greenland Hosting a Mid-Atlantic Hub?

Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:13 am

toxtethogrady wrote:
Greenland is too far west. Keflavik is near the midpoint...


No, Iceland is just north-west of the UK. It's very far east. Greenland is more the midpoint, but I don't think we'll see a hub there due to low local demand.
 
Beechtobus
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Re: Greenland Hosting a Mid-Atlantic Hub?

Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:11 am

ODwyerPW wrote:
In Nuuk, they will start expansion of their only runway this year at GOH (Nuuk Godthab). Currently, the runway is some 950m or 3000ft in length. The plan is to take it to the max length allowable under the terrain (mountain at one end, sea at the other) of 2200m or 7200ft. This will open up many possibilities (although, I haven't heard planes of widening it, as it's only 30m at the moment). Nuuk is the capital and largest city in Greenland with a population of, wait for it, 17316.

The weather is not as favorable in Nuuk as it is in Kangerlussuaq (which takes large planes and is current Air Greenland's base), but at least there is something to do. Kangerlussuaq is soooo isolated from everything (although if MuskOxen spotting is your thing... you'd be in luck).

Actually, found this web link: http://kair.gl/en/projects/nuuk/ . Here it shows they will actually build an entirely new runway just off to the side of the existing. it will be wider.


Interesting. I had no idea that Nuuk was expanding its runway. So Kangerlussuaq is definitely out (and will likely revert to an out station with a few weekly flights), and Nuuk will become the international and domestic hub for Air Greenland. Then we may see some kind of transatlantic connecting hub at Nuuk which may have the ability, population, and infrastructure.
 
Cunard
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Re: Greenland Hosting a Mid-Atlantic Hub?

Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:45 am

The population in Nuuk is 18,000 and although it's the capital and largest settlement in Greenland there still isn't much chance of it becoming some kind of transatlantic connecting hub for most of the reasons already mentioned regarding Greenland as a whole.

This topic was brought up last year and it had it's own thread with very similar responses that we are reading here.

I think people posting should realise that a transatlantic hub in Greenland will never happen for so many reasons some of which other posters have already pointed out.
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Greenland Hosting a Mid-Atlantic Hub?

Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:46 am

A month or so ago the idea of hubbing at France's Saint Pierre was launched here. What's next? Rockall?? (Google it for those who are unfamiliar with it) What's the need of these ever more exotic imaginary hubs, when ever smaller aircraft can fly profitability on Transatlantic flights?
 
RamblinMan
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Re: Greenland Hosting a Mid-Atlantic Hub?

Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:04 am

Beechtobus wrote:

But that was my question/point. In Iceland tourism was nowhere near where it is today even just 25 years ago, and the little bit of tourism they did have was largely a result of the Icelandair Stopover. Could Greenland do the same for their island as Iceland did via Icelandair? And why does it have to be a new airline? Greenlandair already exists and knows the area quite well. I


If you're going to argue in favor of this, you should at least be calling GL by its actual name, Air Greenland. The Greenlandair name was retired 16 years ago.

You're also talking about a carrier with 28 aircraft. 19 are helicopters and 8 are turboprops. The one A330-200 plying the SFJ-CPH route is literally their only jetliner. They might "know the area quite well" but they have never done anything like running the operation you're describing. Not saying it could never work, but it's not like GL is just sitting there failing to grasp an opportunity. They are not set up to run a transatlantic connecting operation, and would require substantial changes to do so.

KEF is in a better geographic position and has better weather. It's my understanding that flights in and out of SFJ get delayed for weather all the time.
 
Cunard
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Re: Greenland Hosting a Mid-Atlantic Hub?

Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:13 am

RamblinMan wrote:
Beechtobus wrote:

But that was my question/point. In Iceland tourism was nowhere near where it is today even just 25 years ago, and the little bit of tourism they did have was largely a result of the Icelandair Stopover. Could Greenland do the same for their island as Iceland did via Icelandair? And why does it have to be a new airline? Greenlandair already exists and knows the area quite well. I


If you're going to argue in favor of this, you should at least be calling GL by its actual name, Air Greenland. The Greenlandair name was retired 16 years ago.

You're also talking about a carrier with 28 aircraft. 19 are helicopters and 8 are turboprops. The one A330-200 plying the SFJ-CPH route is literally their only jetliner. They might "know the area quite well" but they have never done anything like running the operation you're describing. Not saying it could never work, but it's not like GL is just sitting there failing to grasp an opportunity. They are not set up to run a transatlantic connecting operation, and would require substantial changes to do so.

KEF is in a better geographic position and has better weather. It's my understanding that flights in and out of SFJ get delayed for weather all the time.


Excellent post and very informative, hopefully other posters suggestion this ridiculous idea will take note of it :-)
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arcticcruiser
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Re: Greenland Hosting a Mid-Atlantic Hub?

Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:21 am

This thread is just silly, bordering on ignorance. And there have been similar threads before. Give it a rest.

arcticcruiser ( actually used to fly for Greenlandair/Air Greenland).
 
Cunard
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Re: Greenland Hosting a Mid-Atlantic Hub?

Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:01 am

arcticcruiser wrote:
This thread is just silly, bordering on ignorance. And there have been similar threads before. Give it a rest.

arcticcruiser ( actually used to fly for Greenlandair/Air Greenland).


HERE HERE I'll second you on that :-)
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
Beechtobus
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Re: Greenland Hosting a Mid-Atlantic Hub?

Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:19 am

arcticcruiser wrote:
This thread is just silly, bordering on ignorance. And there have been similar threads before. Give it a rest.

arcticcruiser ( actually used to fly for Greenlandair/Air Greenland).


It’s called tossing around thoughts about random ideas, and gathering information and inputs of why something can or can’t work. Do I think a hub in Greenland is going to or could or couldn’t happen? I don’t know, I don’t have an insight either way, that’s why I asked and was exploring the idea. I know nothing about Greenland, but I figured some on this forum might, that’s why I posed the question. I wasn’t pushing the idea and I wasn’t biased either way. I simply see the relative success of Wow and Icelandair in KEF and how FI propelled Icelands tourism industry probably more than anything else, and was wondering if this could some day be duplicated in Greenland. I’m pretty sure that’s one of the reasons for Airliners.net’s forum, to explore the possibilities, pros, cons, and feasibility of the not yet tried.

And I’m sorry your eyes had to fall on the indignity of yet another thread about a hub in Greenland. I didn’t realize this would offend you.
 
MR27122
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Re: Greenland Hosting a Mid-Atlantic Hub?

Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:53 am

KEF/Iceland tourism infrastructure? It doesn't truly exist. Reykjavik is 45-1hr north of International airport. The "stopover" might be free, but Iceland certainly "ain't", it's fantastically expensive....KEF-Reykavik airport transfers = $600 not advance/$400 advance for a family of 4. Reykjavik is quaint & somewhat unique, but anything > 2 nights it is dull. The tours are medicore by European standards...get ready to see a ton of hardened lava rock landscapes for hours. The populous is just starting to grasp the "hospitable" part of "hospitality". Be warned to hope for anything but 70F & sunny skies...if the Hilton Nordica doesn't have AC, I doubt much of Iceland has it...& remember that is solar heating & the sun don't set for more than an hour a day. The area around KEF is totally grungy, so if you make Blue Lagoon your last stop/visit before traveling onward to Europe, your kinda screwed & need to spend the night 'cause most all East-bound flight departures are very early. I guess my 3 word summation would be "WOW just WOW!!".
 
LH707330
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Re: Greenland Hosting a Mid-Atlantic Hub?

Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:46 am

One additional issue with Greenland would be the transfer times. Most Flights from NA to EU leave in the afternoons or evenings, and get there in the morning. How many people will want to get out of a plane in the middle of the night to board another (certainly no premium cabin), and how many airport staff want to work those absurd hours?
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Greenland Hosting a Mid-Atlantic Hub?

Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:11 am

Neither wow nor Iceland air do all connections though. They both rely heavily on o&d for the higher airfares.

Even 30/70 is insanely different situation than 100% connections let's just use for an example.

KEF just needs to invest a little more money on infastructre and they can keep growing. No reason they need Greenland . It's much cheaper to expand KEF.

Halifax I think would be the better option for a mini hub if someone wanted to.
 
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hvusslax
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Re: Greenland Hosting a Mid-Atlantic Hub?

Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:42 am

mcdu wrote:
The weather there would make a hub unsustainable for reliable operations. The same for KEF. The strategy of using KEF as a hub is ill conceived in my opinion.


The winter weather (or its practical effects) at KEF is hardly any worse than at JFK or ORD.

As for Greenland, it is not suitable for a number of reasons. The entire three Texas-sized island only has around 60 thousand people in total. If they were all concentrated in one place then they could potentially run a decent operation but they are spread around the vast coastline in a bunch of tiny villages and the largest settlement only has around 17 thousand people. It takes a lot of people to operate a decent sized airport. The rapid expansion at KEF in the last few years would have been impossible without eastern-European immigrants.

From location perspective alone, it seems that an airport at the southern tip of Greenland could have some advantages. It would be closer to the bulk of transatlantic routings than KEF is and it would allow much deeper penetration into North America with economical narrowbody range. The weather there is a lot more miserable than at KEF though and there is currently no infrastructure there. There are some changes coming in the next years as Greenland is trying to make its airport network serve its population better. Greenland's largest airports were all built by foreign powers as military airfields and were located far away from native population centers so most people need to make connections on turboprops or helicopters to get to their final destination. A longer runway at Nuuk that would make it accessible to A320/737 sized aircraft would revolutionize Greenland's access to the world.
 
qblue
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Re: Greenland Hosting a Mid-Atlantic Hub?

Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:06 am

Remember SFJ is ice bound 4-5 months of the year. Airlines have to sea lift all their fuel in the fall to last till spring along with the cost of building storage facility. That will be some high price operation. They are luck if they have above freezing temperature from May to Sep. The price of Jet A is about 1.15 a gallon in Keflavik and the FBO have at about $5,60 in Narsarsuaq.
 
Themotionman
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Re: Greenland Hosting a Mid-Atlantic Hub?

Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:33 am

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Halifax I think would be the better option for a mini hub if someone wanted to.


cough...WestJet...cough

The one thing about Halifax is its just over 400 miles from BOS. For an A321LR,that hardly opens up a new world of opportunities in terms of European cities
 
VSMUT
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Re: Greenland Hosting a Mid-Atlantic Hub?

Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:19 am

It won't happen as long as Air Greenland and the state of Greenland itself are still funded by the Danish state. Why would the Danish state create a competitor to its own airline, at considerable cost to itself? It isn't even certain that it will ever become profitable, so instead of having one profitable major airline and one minor unprofitable one, they could very well end up with two big unprofitable airlines.
Come to think of it, SAS itself has a stake in Air Greenland, so thats already a majority of the shareholders that have interests against this happening.

And then you have the major issue of corruption and nepotism, which hardly makes the place attractive for business.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Greenland Hosting a Mid-Atlantic Hub?

Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:32 am

mcdu wrote:
flyPIT wrote:
mcdu wrote:
The weather there would make a hub unsustainable for reliable operations. The same for KEF. The strategy of using KEF as a hub is ill conceived in my opinion.

So ill conceived that Icelandair has successfully been using KEF as a hub for decades.[/]

I often see KEF below landing mins. Ice air doesn’t have as robust of a winter schedule as summer. Also look at al the WOW irregular ops posts. KEF is not a great connection point due to conditions


If you look at this winter, weather in North America or Europe has more often had influence on operation at WOW and FI, than weather here in KEF. Furthermore KEF has a tip top snow and ice removal operation. KEF is also the main diversion airport for this route for other operations, if it would be closed as often as you imply, it would impact TATL operations for many airlines.
And do not put WOW and FI in the same pot, FI has much more reserves, frames they can use with little warning, especially in winter, than WOW.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9391
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Greenland Hosting a Mid-Atlantic Hub?

Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:54 am

People should also think about that RKV and AEY are small domestic hubs for Greenland, especially for the east coast. The hospital in Reykjavík and Akureyri are used by Greenlanders as it is often easier to get there, especially in emergencies and from the east coast, than to Nuuk.

As far as I know Air Greenland operated the A330 to the USA, but stopped those flights.

KEF is an old established hub on the North Atlantic route. Using it the first low fare operation North America to Europe were established in 1964.
 
User avatar
bgm
Posts: 2471
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:37 am

Re: Greenland Hosting a Mid-Atlantic Hub?

Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:13 am

toxtethogrady wrote:
Greenland is too far west. Keflavik is near the midpoint...


Only if you're a flat-earther.. :duck:
 
oldannyboy
Posts: 2574
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:28 am

Re: Greenland Hosting a Mid-Atlantic Hub?

Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:45 am

:checkmark:
arcticcruiser wrote:
This thread is just silly, bordering on ignorance. And there have been similar threads before. Give it a rest.

arcticcruiser ( actually used to fly for Greenlandair/Air Greenland).


:checkmark:

..Yeah, I mean, no offence to the thread starter, but this "why don't we have a hub in [insert remote place]" has to stop..

Again, no offence, but please let's all do our best to keep this site and the discussions going on as close to reality as possible.
 
Cunard
Posts: 2510
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:45 pm

Re: Greenland Hosting a Mid-Atlantic Hub?

Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:50 am

oldannyboy wrote:
:checkmark:
arcticcruiser wrote:
This thread is just silly, bordering on ignorance. And there have been similar threads before. Give it a rest.

arcticcruiser ( actually used to fly for Greenlandair/Air Greenland).


:checkmark:

..Yeah, I mean, no offence to the thread starter, but this "why don't we have a hub in [insert remote place]" has to stop..

Again, no offence, but please let's all do our best to keep this site and the discussions going on as close to reality as possible.


I agree with you wholeheartedly but I think that your asking a lot from your last comment :-)

I'm sure that you have noticed the increasing amount of similar threads on these forums over the last two years or so, these forums were a place to discuss new routes or aircraft orders and very informative they used to be and I could spend hours reading them but not so much now.

To the OP, you mentioned that you didn't know anything about Greenland before you started this thread, I'll give you two ideas to learn more before posting GOOGLE and WIKIPEDIA.
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
mcdu
Posts: 1643
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:23 am

Re: Greenland Hosting a Mid-Atlantic Hub?

Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:11 am

mjoelnir wrote:
mcdu wrote:
flyPIT wrote:

So ill conceived that Icelandair has successfully been using KEF as a hub for decades.[/]

I often see KEF below landing mins. Ice air doesn’t have as robust of a winter schedule as summer. Also look at al the WOW irregular ops posts. KEF is not a great connection point due to conditions


If you look at this winter, weather in North America or Europe has more often had influence on operation at WOW and FI, than weather here in KEF. Furthermore KEF has a tip top snow and ice removal operation. KEF is also the main diversion airport for this route for other operations, if it would be closed as often as you imply, it would impact TATL operations for many airlines.
And do not put WOW and FI in the same pot, FI has much more reserves, frames they can use with little warning, especially in winter, than WOW.



Not having KEF available does not impact TATL ops. With the ETOPS availability of 120 and greater KEF being not available is not an issue. Also LPLA is a good substitute. Why don’t we start a thread about creating a Lajes hub?

Having a hub in KEF is a bad idea. I stand by that premise through experience.
 
User avatar
hvusslax
Posts: 419
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2015 7:35 pm

Re: Greenland Hosting a Mid-Atlantic Hub?

Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:00 pm

I found this page with some renderings and a video of the expanded airport in Nuuk that will bring the runway up to 2200 meters. Work has apparently already started on this. Direct international air access to Nuuk will make a big difference. I could see some summer-seasonal routes to North American destinations. Nuuk is closer to New York than it is to Copenhagen after all.
 
Beechtobus
Topic Author
Posts: 519
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:09 pm

Re: Greenland Hosting a Mid-Atlantic Hub?

Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:10 pm

Cunard wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:
:checkmark:
arcticcruiser wrote:
This thread is just silly, bordering on ignorance. And there have been similar threads before. Give it a rest.

arcticcruiser ( actually used to fly for Greenlandair/Air Greenland).


:checkmark:

..Yeah, I mean, no offence to the thread starter, but this "why don't we have a hub in [insert remote place]" has to stop..

Again, no offence, but please let's all do our best to keep this site and the discussions going on as close to reality as possible.


I agree with you wholeheartedly but I think that your asking a lot from your last comment :-)

I'm sure that you have noticed the increasing amount of similar threads on these forums over the last two years or so, these forums were a place to discuss new routes or aircraft orders and very informative they used to be and I could spend hours reading them but not so much now.

To the OP, you mentioned that you didn't know anything about Greenland before you started this thread, I'll give you two ideas to learn more before posting GOOGLE and WIKIPEDIA.


Yes, ok. I missed that Wikipedia entry that mentioned in no way would a small mid Atlantic hub in Greenland work. My bad . I guess I needed to be more literal and clarify that I know nothing about aviation in Greenland and idiosyncracies that would not allow a small hub there to work. My apologies that learning from Wikipedia the population of Thule and how thick the ice sheet is and that the First Nation reclaimed the island from the Vikings didn’t teach me this. Get over yourself. People like you with your “this site is for discussing new route and a/c orders, and blah blah blah” that make this site crappy. Unless you developed this site, please don’t tell me what I cannot use it for. This site is for all things civil aviation. If you see a topic you don’t like, glaze past it and refrain from giving the OP your high and mighty crap.

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