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Stitch
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Re: Boeing 777X Production Thread 2018

Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:30 pm

PW100 wrote:
Is this the former 787 surge line (40-24)?


That appears to be the case. The Static Test Frame was assembled in 40-24 and the original plans were to use 40-24 as the 777X FAL.
 
rj777
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Re: Boeing 777X Production Thread 2018

Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:28 am

Any word on a roll-out date?
 
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qf789
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Re: Boeing 777X Production Thread 2018

Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:44 am

The 777X has been powered on for the first time

https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/ ... 32577?s=21
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 777X Production Thread 2018

Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:27 pm

qf789 wrote:
The 777X has been powered on for the first time

https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/ ... 32577?s=21

AvWeek ( http://aviationweek.com/commercial-avia ... rst-flight ) has an article on the power-on event, which actually happened a few days ago, in November.

It confirms the use of building 40-24 to host a low-rate initial-production (LRIP) line.

It says they did the side-of-body join (wing to fuse) in digital simulation around 50 times, with variability introduced to show potential problems, and ended up doing the actual first join in 16 instead of the allotted 20 days, and the second in 20% less time.

As for current status:

Five 777-9 airframes, four for flight testing and one for fatigue tests, are in various stages of assembly. “All four flight-test aircraft are in the LRIP, and the left wing, the final for the fourth test aircraft, has just been loaded in laydown. So that part of the system is really starting to crank. The wing for the fatigue-test aircraft is in the horizontal-build line wing assembly area, and the wingbox is almost built,” says Clark.

“We also have the first change incorporation airplanes [the initial production batch for delivery] starting to load into the system, and if you go one step further, to early December, we will load the spar for the first of model that we will deliver,” says Clark. “So when people ask how the production system is going, every single position in the factory is now fully loaded.” Boeing, which completed assembly of the static-test airframe in September, is widely expected to build up to 30 follow-on 777-8/9s on the LRIP line before 777X production is fully transitioned to building 40-25 in the early 2020s.

Production of the first two 777-8s for flight test is expected to follow on the LRIP line in 2020. Rollout of the first 777-9X is due in early 2019, with the first flight widely expected in the second quarter of 2019. All four 777-9 test aircraft are scheduled to be in the flight program by late 2019, with first deliveries due to begin around May 2020. First 777-8 deliveries will start in 2022.

It talks about major improvements to the production system:

With a common main production line the eventual goal, improvements and changes are flowing from the 777 to the 777X and vice versa. The robotic fuselage automated upright-build process introduced on the current production model is now standard for all 777 derivatives, while the dominant use of overhead cranes and large, permanent tooling fixtures or “monuments” from areas such as the wing installation have been replaced by computer-controlled automated guided vehicles that are used to position wings and fuselage sections for wing-to-body join.

It points out the use of monuments was limiting production, and given the 777x wings have a different shape than 777, they could not have a common set of tools anyway. The computer controlled vehicles will allow for both kinds of 777s to be built on the same line once the LRIP line is wound down.
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Re: Boeing 777X Production Thread 2018

Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:13 pm

Burying the lede there: EIS is confirmed not to happen in 2019, as was widely suspected and seemed rather obvious based on progress, but (to my knowledge) was not previously publicly acknowledged.
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Production Thread 2018

Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:32 pm

seabosdca wrote:
Burying the lede there: EIS is confirmed not to happen in 2019, as was widely suspected and seemed rather obvious based on progress, but (to my knowledge) was not previously publicly acknowledged.



But still, being one year behind schedule isn’t bad at all.
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Production Thread 2018

Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:34 pm

seabosdca wrote:
Burying the lede there: EIS is confirmed not to happen in 2019, as was widely suspected and seemed rather obvious based on progress, but (to my knowledge) was not previously publicly acknowledged.

EIS has publicly been 2020 for a while now, with first flight early 2019. This was confirmed when EK was announced as the first operator in Oct 2017.

The big question was whether rollout would be at end of this year or beginning of next.
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Production Thread 2018

Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:04 pm

The big glaring omission is, where are the engines? How is GE doing with the 9X? Pretty soon that's all this thing will be missing and probably could roll out in 2019 if the engines were ready and waiting...
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Production Thread 2018

Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:20 pm

I believe engines are delivered shortly before installation is to be done. There's a name for the process of deliveries that prevents the company from having to store engines while waiting for the airframe to be ready for it, but I can't remember what it is.
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Production Thread 2018

Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:23 pm

I remember what it is now. Deliveries are made "Just In Time"
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Production Thread 2018

Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:42 pm

https://twitter.com/BoeingAirplanes/sta ... 4614429700

A slightly different shot of the first flyable frame. Also on Thursday at 10am PST (1pm EST) Boeing will show some more behind-the-scenes footage
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Re: Boeing 777X Production Thread 2018

Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:14 am

EBJ68 wrote:
I believe engines are delivered shortly before installation is to be done. There's a name for the process of deliveries that prevents the company from having to store engines while waiting for the airframe to be ready for it, but I can't remember what it is.


JIT applies for production delivery parts not so much related to new certification airplanes -- if these engines show up "just in time" which I think would be any day now it would not be due to prior planning but because they weren't ready. I'm guessing the engines will be late, but not because Boeing wants them late.
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Production Thread 2018

Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:25 am

Goodness that plane is just simply massive. Can’t wait to see it in the air.
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Production Thread 2018

Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:57 am

Does anyone here know if the 777X will have the dimming windows which allow the crew to override the pax like the 787? I absolutely hate this feature and I'm worried that all future Boeing airliners will have them.
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Production Thread 2018

Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:21 am

I am sorry I don't have a source but 777X will not have electronic dimming according to a few articles I have seen . I agree I hate this when the FA's blank out the windows
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Production Thread 2018

Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:45 am

The GE9X has completed static testing and the initial flight testing so the next step will be to mate the engines to the 777X flight test frames. As such, they should be ready when Boeing wants them.

As for the windows, as of last year Boeing noted that dimmable windows would be a customer option, as would traditional physical window shades. Not sure if that has changed since.
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Production Thread 2018

Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:53 am

I believe the window dimming was dropped as Boeing felt the adding all the additional wiring and what not into the frame which was never designed for it was not worth the extra time and expense when shades will suffice.
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Production Thread 2018

Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:01 am

Stitch wrote:
The GE9X has completed static testing and the initial flight testing so the next step will be to mate the engines to the 777X flight test frames. As such, they should be ready when Boeing wants them.

As for the windows, as of last year Boeing noted that dimmable windows would be a customer option, as would traditional physical window shades. Not sure if that has changed since.

Actually, the engines have to be further along. They need a limited scope certification prior to the start of being the only engines. For example, demonstration of the entire flight envelope of early testing.

For example takeoff (full or derated thrust, but whatever is proven is the limit).
Cruise at thrust and Maxh# (maximum cruise not required).
Climb at engine out thrust (for the weight of 779 flying, again doesn't have to be the maximum).

Bonus is all the element testing (hot/high, known icing, cold start, etc.).

No risk testing may be performed with unknown powerplants unless the installation airframe is the only one that can (e.g., 1.5G turn is never performed on the 747 test bed).

So as excited as I am about the GE9X, it sounds like they have work to do. Not to mention, to start flight test, I expect a spare for every engine. :spin:

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Re: Boeing 777X Production Thread 2018

Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:02 am

If Boeing decides to stick with dimmable windows, we'll see them on NMA > NSA > NLA / the 777X successor.
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Production Thread 2018

Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:05 am

lightsaber wrote:
Stitch wrote:
The GE9X has completed static testing and the initial flight testing so the next step will be to mate the engines to the 777X flight test frames. As such, they should be ready when Boeing wants them.

As for the windows, as of last year Boeing noted that dimmable windows would be a customer option, as would traditional physical window shades. Not sure if that has changed since.

Actually, the engines have to be further along. They need a limited scope certification prior to the start of being the only engines. For example, demonstration of the entire flight envelope of early testing.

For example takeoff (full or derated thrust, but whatever is proven is the limit).
Cruise at thrust and Maxh# (maximum cruise not required).
Climb at engine out thrust (for the weight of 779 flying, again doesn't have to be the maximum).

Bonus is all the element testing (hot/high, known icing, cold start, etc.).

No risk testing may be performed with unknown powerplants unless the installation airframe is the only one that can (e.g., 1.5G turn is never performed on the 747 test bed).

So as excited as I am about the GE9X, it sounds like they have work to do. Not to mention, to start flight test, I expect a spare for every engine. :spin:

Lightsaber


So you're confident that GE9X is running late?
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Production Thread 2018

Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:27 am

Revelation wrote:
It talks about major improvements to the production system:

With a common main production line the eventual goal, improvements and changes are flowing from the 777 to the 777X and vice versa. The robotic fuselage automated upright-build process introduced on the current production model is now standard for all 777 derivatives, while the dominant use of overhead cranes and large, permanent tooling fixtures or “monuments” from areas such as the wing installation have been replaced by computer-controlled automated guided vehicles that are used to position wings and fuselage sections for wing-to-body join.

It points out the use of monuments was limiting production, and given the 777x wings have a different shape than 777, they could not have a common set of tools anyway. The computer controlled vehicles will allow for both kinds of 777s to be built on the same line once the LRIP line is wound down.


Id say that’s pretty huge. A crazy end goal would be having wide body and narrow body production lines where the specific model can change from airframe to airframe. The flexibility it gives you is huge.
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Production Thread 2018

Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:41 pm

GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Stitch wrote:
The GE9X has completed static testing and the initial flight testing so the next step will be to mate the engines to the 777X flight test frames. As such, they should be ready when Boeing wants them.

As for the windows, as of last year Boeing noted that dimmable windows would be a customer option, as would traditional physical window shades. Not sure if that has changed since.

Actually, the engines have to be further along. They need a limited scope certification prior to the start of being the only engines. For example, demonstration of the entire flight envelope of early testing.

For example takeoff (full or derated thrust, but whatever is proven is the limit).
Cruise at thrust and Maxh# (maximum cruise not required).
Climb at engine out thrust (for the weight of 779 flying, again doesn't have to be the maximum).

Bonus is all the element testing (hot/high, known icing, cold start, etc.).

No risk testing may be performed with unknown powerplants unless the installation airframe is the only one that can (e.g., 1.5G turn is never performed on the 747 test bed).

So as excited as I am about the GE9X, it sounds like they have work to do. Not to mention, to start flight test, I expect a spare for every engine. :spin:

Lightsaber


So you're confident that GE9X is running late?

Neither. I think more testing is required. But new engines will arrive in time for install.

I haven't seen the PR on provisional certification. My guess is we are a month out from that from what little I know.

Ideally, the engine is fully certified before flight testing of the airframe starts, the original plan, but that won't happen for the GE9x.

What I am saying is there is schedule risk. If everything continues going well, the risk will not be realized. If there is an issue, then the schedule is delayed.

For example, the stator controller linkage was modified. That means all the software hacks haven't been implimented to verify surge margin. If something shows an issue, there will have to be a software upgrade followed by a month of engine testing and then a repeat (called regression testing) of weeks of flight testing.

There isn't one answer. That is aerospace testing. There will be needed changes found. There is time budget to take care of typical still left. But because engine and airframe certification is going in parallel, there is schedule risk. An extreamely example is the Dassault 5X and Silvercrest; I do not see that level of risk, but it is higher than say the Gulfstream 500 which had late nacelle issues despite a certified engine and nacelle.

e.g., the reverse thrust test is unlikely to have been completed.

It is risk, not an absolute. Test engineering is risk management. When to test early and find issues or when to test late and be on the critical path and possibly delay delivery.

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Re: Boeing 777X Production Thread 2018

Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:51 pm

It's not huge actually, if we think about some planes we have seen. But the folding wingtips are indeed a sight to behold and give the impression of size for sure. On the note of no dimmable windows, this is indeed an interesting development and I think a vote out of that technology long term if it isn't continued on the 77X. I'd say it is too expensive and not worth the trouble given the number of grumbles from passenger feedback on 787. Interesting indeed. So this will be an element peculiar to the 787 IMHO.
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Re: Boeing 777X Production Thread 2018

Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:44 pm

L0VE2FLY wrote:
Does anyone here know if the 777X will have the dimming windows which allow the crew to override the pax like the 787? I absolutely hate this feature and I'm worried that all future Boeing airliners will have them.

It will be a customer option. Got this info from a friend in Boeing sales so no link to a "source" - sorry
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Production Thread 2018

Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:59 pm

NZ321 wrote:
It's not huge actually, if we think about some planes we have seen. But the folding wingtips are indeed a sight to behold and give the impression of size for sure.

Eh, it’s pretty big. Keep in mind that this takes the medal for the longest commercial pax aircraft from the 748. I think you are underestimating it’s size because of the lack of a double deck, no engines attached, and few people around it to give it a sense of scale.
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Production Thread 2018

Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:14 pm

Type certification issues aside, how difficult would it have been to "slap" a 787 nose/cockpit onto the 777X for a more modern look?
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Production Thread 2018

Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:59 am

GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:
Type certification issues aside, how difficult would it have been to "slap" a 787 nose/cockpit onto the 777X for a more modern look?


For appearance sake, I like the idea. However, the airplane then wouldn't look like a 777. Perhaps the FAA wouldn't certify it as a 777. Passengers can relate to a new version of the 777 but not so likely to relate to what is essentially a 777 with a 787 nose section. How airlines would see the matter, I don't have enough experience to say.
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Production Thread 2018

Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:12 am

I think someone here should do a concept render.
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing 777X Production Thread 2018

Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:34 am

The easier/smarter thing to do would have been to Ovalize a 787 Fuselage making it 11W with a new wing (probably smaller than 777X but bigger than 787) at a lot lower MTOW than 777X for same capacity/range.
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Production Thread 2018

Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:42 am

morrisond wrote:
The easier/smarter thing to do would have been to Ovalize a 787 Fuselage making it 11W with a new wing (probably smaller than 777X but bigger than 787) at a lot lower MTOW than 777X for same capacity/range.


That's called a clean-sheet and while you could argue it'd be "easier" or "smarter", it would have been considerably more expensive - double or more - and have probably taken considerably longer. In the end, they decided at the time that the money and risk wasn't worth it. It would have been up against a similar-sized and quite capable A350 that has already delivered over 200 frames and would likely deliver that many more before the first oval 777 could be delivered. That's quite an uphill battle to climb when you are second to market and not offering something significantly different than the existing competition.

Just my two cents.
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Re: Boeing 777X Production Thread 2018

Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:22 pm

I was replying to the thought of adding the 787 Nose to the 777 - by the time you did that it wouldn't have been that much more work to do the 787 11W Oval - 777X with a new nose would have been pretty close to a clean sheet.

At 70M long an Oval 11W 787 with new wing would be larger (more passenger Capacity) than A350-1000 with wing sized for A350-1000 Range - then the 80M 787 11W Oval with same MTOW would have been the CASM king albeit with less range at possibly similar weights to A351 - and a bunch lighter than 777X.

I think 777X will turn out to be an orphan and Boeing will have wasted a lot of resources by being too conservative. They should have done a cleansheet and changed the game by going larger in Capacity.
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Production Thread 2018

Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:06 pm

GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:
Type certification issues aside, how difficult would it have been to "slap" a 787 nose/cockpit onto the 777X for a more modern look?


From manufacturing stand point, you will have to design the whole new cockpit in the shape of the 787. There is two reason for this.

1) Boeing cockpits are in the"41 section". It joins with "section 43" around the forward lavatory near the forward entry door. At this point both the 787 and 777 has different diameters, so a complete new 777 41 section would need to be designed and built.

2) The 787 is a composite fuselage and the 777 is a metallic fuselage, so the splice joint at the 41 to 43 section would be different between the two planes. They can probably come up with something if they need to make it work, but . . .

Note that the 767/757 cockpit works because they went from larger to smaller . . . not smaller to larger.

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Re: Boeing 777X Production Thread 2018

Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:43 pm

I’m a bit surprised given how far along the program is that we haven’t seen photos of a full cabin mock-up.
Does anyone have any idea if one exists and if so when we’ll get a look at it?
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Production Thread 2018

Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:49 pm

CBBW wrote:
I’m a bit surprised given how far along the program is that we haven’t seen photos of a full cabin mock-up. Does anyone have any idea if one exists and if so when we’ll get a look at it?


https://www.flickr.com/photos/flyvertos ... 577103403/

https://runwaygirlnetwork.com/2017/12/0 ... in-design/
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Production Thread 2018

Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:11 am

CBBW wrote:
I’m a bit surprised given how far along the program is that we haven’t seen photos of a full cabin mock-up.
Does anyone have any idea if one exists and if so when we’ll get a look at it?


Here's a picture of the cabin sans furniture:

https://twitter.com/StratAero/status/10 ... 0355972099

Those sidewalls don't look any different to the current 777 but the window frames are definitely bigger.
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Production Thread 2018

Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:59 pm

Thanks, guys my impression is that the 777x is going To look pretty amazing internally, continueing on the lovely “sky” architecture they built. The 777 is already a beautiful interior;I can’t wait to see what Boeing comes up with. :)
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Production Thread 2018

Wed Dec 12, 2018 11:15 am

GE has begun second round of testing for GE9X engines, expected to finish sometime in the first quarter of 2019

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... f204122096
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Re: Boeing 777X Production Thread 2018

Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:20 pm

qf789 wrote:
GE has begun second round of testing for GE9X engines, expected to finish sometime in the first quarter of 2019

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... f204122096


Hahahaha! Oh snap! The 747 with a GE9X looks so odd!
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Re: Boeing 777X Production Thread 2018

Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:21 pm

I’m curious what 77x variants this is referring to:

GE also plans to develop versions of the turbofan with 102,000lb-thrust and 93,000lb-thrust, according to regulatory filings with the FAA. Those engines could power other 777X variants.
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Production Thread 2018

Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:10 pm

SFOtoORD wrote:
I’m curious what 77x variants this is referring to:

GE also plans to develop versions of the turbofan with 102,000lb-thrust and 93,000lb-thrust, according to regulatory filings with the FAA. Those engines could power other 777X variants.


The 102k model might be for airlines like Lufthansa who are not operating from "hot or high" airfields and so don't need the full 105k. The 93k model is probably a de-rate for airlines operating with lower Certified Operating Weights.
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Production Thread 2018

Thu Dec 13, 2018 3:48 am

MoKa777 wrote:
qf789 wrote:
GE has begun second round of testing for GE9X engines, expected to finish sometime in the first quarter of 2019

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... f204122096


Hahahaha! Oh snap! The 747 with a GE9X looks so odd!


When the -8 was announced, Joe Sutter commented that there is at least one more iteration left on the 747 platform. I am thinking that a pair of up-rated engines of this size hung on a new wing could provide the step change for it, if the technology develops to make it practical. It would make sense for a 747 freighter at least with twin-engine economics considering that there is still interest for the platform from customers.
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Production Thread 2018

Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:24 am

The 777X overhead bins will slightly be concave to improve the cabin feeling on top of them being bigger as well

Image

https://twitter.com/winglets747/status/ ... 9070042112
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FrenchPotatoEye
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Re: Boeing 777X Production Thread 2018

Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:46 am

qf789 wrote:
The 777X overhead bins will slightly be concave to improve the cabin feeling on top of them being bigger as well

Image

https://twitter.com/winglets747/status/ ... 9070042112


Yes, Boeing's first renderings of the interior at the time of launch highlighted the bigger bits and their shape(s).

https://twitter.com/StratAero/status/10 ... 76448?s=19

Although we're no closer to knowing what the center overhead bins will look like (unless someone has images that they can share?).

Image
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Production Thread 2018

Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:24 am

qf789 wrote:
Image

On my flights to/from Asia on B777s (Air China, China Eastern, THY...) I regularly have to help Asian women to get their luggage out of the overhead bins... Seems this will not Change with the 777X ;-)
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Production Thread 2018

Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:31 pm

bikerthai wrote:
GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:
Type certification issues aside, how difficult would it have been to "slap" a 787 nose/cockpit onto the 777X for a more modern look?


From manufacturing stand point, you will have to design the whole new cockpit in the shape of the 787. There is two reason for this.

1) Boeing cockpits are in the"41 section". It joins with "section 43" around the forward lavatory near the forward entry door. At this point both the 787 and 777 has different diameters, so a complete new 777 41 section would need to be designed and built.

2) The 787 is a composite fuselage and the 777 is a metallic fuselage, so the splice joint at the 41 to 43 section would be different between the two planes. They can probably come up with something if they need to make it work, but . . .

Note that the 767/757 cockpit works because they went from larger to smaller . . . not smaller to larger.

bt


The 777 has already gone smaller to larger as it uses the forward part of the 767 section 41.

Using the 787 Section 41 would have been outside of the 777X Work Statement but it would have been less of a mis-match than the initial 777 design.
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bikerthai
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Re: Boeing 777X Production Thread 2018

Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:02 pm

OldAeroGuy wrote:
Using the 787 Section 41 would have been outside of the 777X Work Statement but it would have been less of a mis-match than the initial 777 design.


I disagree on technicality. The work statement of going from the 767 cockpit to a 777 cockpit involves going from a metal air frame to a metal air frame with significant common component parts. (Although personal experience leads me to believe that they would have re-design new parts anyway as they go into detail design). Re-designing the 777 to look like the 787 cock-pit would require either redesigning all the composite components to metallic component or re-lofting the 787 composite cockpit to mate with the 777 metallic fuselage at the section 41/43 splice. This splice would be complicated as I believe the 787 stringers are hat section while the 777 sections are J's or Z's. With modern CAD design and manufacturing process, the SOW may be reduced, but not because of the complexity.

The other thing to think about aerodynamic difference of the new "787" style cockpit and the change in pilot vision would impact certification and pilot training.

bt
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