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SeaDoo
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AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:31 pm

Companies must now provide 1 hour of sick leave for every 40 hours worked under a new WA State sick leave law.

https://www.heraldnet.com/northwest/air ... leave-law/
 
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exFWAOONW
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:21 pm

So, 6.5 days a year?
Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?
 
MIflyer12
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:23 pm

That's an interesting political fight to pick, as the sick leave law was approved by ballot initiative. Not respecting the clear will of voters... that's a nice was for AS to squander hometown advantage.
 
77H
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:34 pm

exFWAOONW wrote:
So, 6.5 days a year?


Seems a paltry amount to throw a fit over. Especially considering not everyone will use it. I’ve never taken a sick day.

77H
 
hayzel777
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:47 pm

77H wrote:
exFWAOONW wrote:
So, 6.5 days a year?


Seems a paltry amount to throw a fit over. Especially considering not everyone will use it. I’ve never taken a sick day.

77H

It’s more than the 1 hour/40hr. They oppose the new law regarding when they can ask for doctor’s verification and other things.
Last edited by hayzel777 on Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:03 pm

There's actually a lot more to this; the law circumvents existing CBAs that are intended to ensure all employees are treated equitably. So, a union employee based in WA now has different benefits and protections than an employee in the same union who just happens to be based elsewhere. Another is implementation - a flight crew flying LAXSEA and SEAPHX could be subject to three different states worth of leave laws; which one is applied when the employee calls out sick in the middle of that line of flying? Another point is that these individual state leave laws seem to attempt to regulate interstate commerce, which is outside their scope.

Read the complaint and you'll see there's actually quite a bit to consider:

http://afanewsletters.org/docs/2/1%20Co ... Relief.pdf
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:16 pm

77H wrote:
exFWAOONW wrote:
So, 6.5 days a year?


Seems a paltry amount to throw a fit over. Especially considering not everyone will use it. I’ve never taken a sick day.

77H


AS provides benefits under the CBAs that exceed what the laws provide; this is about consistency more than anything else. You'll note this suit does not contest the provisions of the law to non-crew employees, as those employees can have the law applied consistently since they work in just one place, whereas crews do not.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
WorldFlier
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:16 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
There's actually a lot more to this; the law circumvents existing CBAs that are intended to ensure all employees are treated equitably. So, a union employee based in WA now has different benefits and protections than an employee in the same union who just happens to be based elsewhere. Another is implementation - a flight crew flying LAXSEA and SEAPHX could be subject to three different states worth of leave laws; which one is applied when the employee calls out sick in the middle of that line of flying? Another point is that these individual state leave laws seem to attempt to regulate interstate commerce, which is outside their scope.

Read the complaint and you'll see there's actually quite a bit to consider:

http://afanewsletters.org/docs/2/1%20Co ... Relief.pdf


There are plenty of local/state law differences. For example, New York implemented family leave. My company gave it to everyone.

These companies are choosing to fight it because....greed.

There is ample research that shows employees coming to work sick reduces overall performance because sickness is spread. Now, whether airlines have enough slack in their system (hint: they don't) to cover this new (at most) 6.5/365 (~2%) decrease in available employee hours....that's another question.

Plus, flight attendants based overseas have way more benefits/protections that U.S. based crews. There's a reason Norwegian uses U.S. based crews (who ironically joined a Union): https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ns-435728/
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:19 pm

WorldFlier wrote:
These companies are choosing to fight it because....greed.


Patently absurd. Again, this has to do with flight crews only, as they do not have one unique work location; no one is disputing the various state or even local laws that apply to other employees wherever various companies do business.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
zippy
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:19 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
There's actually a lot more to this; the law circumvents existing CBAs that are intended to ensure all employees are treated equitably. So, a union employee based in WA now has different benefits and protections than an employee in the same union who just happens to be based elsewhere. Another is implementation - a flight crew flying LAXSEA and SEAPHX could be subject to three different states worth of leave laws; which one is applied when the employee calls out sick in the middle of that line of flying? Another point is that these individual state leave laws seem to attempt to regulate interstate commerce, which is outside their scope.


That's part of doing business in the United States across state lines. Some states will require employers to pay out accrued PTO when an employee quits, different states have different overtime requirements, and so-on. There's nothing stopping the airlines from negotiating a single set of rules that will meet the requirements in all states.
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:23 pm

zippy wrote:
There's nothing stopping the airlines from negotiating a single set of rules that will meet the requirements in all states.


So you'd actually advocate every airline being subject to revising the systemwide terms of their various collective bargaining agreements whenever any town, city, county, or state they serve updates their local leave laws?
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
WorldFlier
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:27 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
WorldFlier wrote:
These companies are choosing to fight it because....greed.


Patently absurd. Again, this has to do with flight crews only, as they do not have one unique work location; no one is disputing the various state or even local laws that apply to other employees wherever various companies do business.


Absurd? Really? C'mon man!

Companies have been fighting tooth and nail against Seattle/Washington's experiment with European-Style Capitalism. Would you like citations of the well-funded and organized campaign against Seattle/Washington?

I am sorry to have to say the only thing absurd is you carrying water for, I assume, your (greedy) employer.

Profits are at record levels across all industries. Yet a little sick leave and the companies cry and run to the courts. This is symptomatic of the wealth distribution in this country as well as why people are generally happier in Europe than the USA, albeit they may earn less money!
 
WorldFlier
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:28 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
zippy wrote:
There's nothing stopping the airlines from negotiating a single set of rules that will meet the requirements in all states.


So you'd actually advocate every airline being subject to revising the systemwide terms of their various collective bargaining agreements whenever any town, city, county, or state they serve updates their local leave laws?


Don't like the rules. Don't do business here or live here.

That's exactly what Seattle and Washington have said, and the sky did not fall!
 
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:32 pm

WorldFlier wrote:
people are generally happier in Europe than the USA,


Then I happily invite you to relocate there. I'll even help you pack if you'd like.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
SeaDoo
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:52 pm

I can see how this is an aggravation to employers, especially if the employees are (arguably) already receiving better benefits. I don't know what AS employee's benefits are, but lets say they get 20 personal days off (could be used for sickness, vacation, etc.) Take the 1 hour of sick leave for every 40 hours worked, subtract that from the time they would get for personal days and just have a separate WA State sick leave bank. The disadvantage for employees might be one who never gets sick, but would lose out on taking personal days as vacation. I realize this potentially interferes with collective bargaining agreements, but for the most part it is just changing the name of the type of time away from work. There are some other complexities, but to me, this seems like a reasonable way to deal with this.
 
OKCDCA
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:57 pm

Are airlines not like railroads in which there employees are federally preempted under the Railway Labor Act? It was my understanding that airline workers and railroad workers under the Act were not subject to various local and state laws because of their strong tie to interstate commerce. Whenever we would have an attendance investigation on an employee at the railroad, the union would always try to submit various items related to state employment laws which they knew did not apply but only did it to muck up the record and give an arbitrator more stuff to go through.
 
paulsaz
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:59 pm

AZ attached new sick leave laws to the minimum wage ballot initiative. But work groups covered under bargaining agreements do not apply. So the non-union staff are covered with up to 5 days a year, and the company can not retaliate against the employee for using those sick days. Union employees are not included.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect on my employer in any way.
 
skyharborshome
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:02 pm

Arizona voters passed a very similar law last year however it was bundled into a minimum wage increase. We hate the changes. Still, when the voters pass something the courts have almost always said only the voters can take it away. This law in AZ screwed over many employees because it took away a week of PTO (used mostly for vacation) and allocated it to be used for only sick time. Also, employees can now contact us by electronic means including text or email which used to be prohibited. The airlines can gripe all they want however it is too late. Very few of us like these types of laws however we are in a wave of employee-friendly initiatives that restrict the rights of employers; some good and some bad.
Fly CHD!
 
cpd
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:04 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
WorldFlier wrote:
people are generally happier in Europe than the USA,


Then I happily invite you to relocate there. I'll even help you pack if you'd like.


I don't know if you live in the state, but if you don't, then who gives you the say on telling other people to leave the USA? This sick leave provision is pretty tiny.

Looking after your workers and ensuring they are well motivated is the way to reduce employees misusing sick leave.
 
StrandedAtMKG
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:05 pm

skyharborshome wrote:
Arizona voters passed a very similar law last year however it was bundled into a minimum wage increase. We hate the changes. Still, when the voters pass something the courts have almost always said only the voters can take it away. This law in AZ screwed over many employees because it took away a week of PTO (used mostly for vacation) and allocated it to be used for only sick time. Also, employees can now contact us by electronic means including text or email which used to be prohibited. The airlines can gripe all they want however it is too late. Very few of us like these types of laws however we are in a wave of employee-friendly initiatives that restrict the rights of employers; some good and some bad.


...wait...

Employers had the option of providing the same amount of PTO in addition to the state-mandated sick leave and chose not to do that (because greed), and the employees are mad at the state? What kind of sense does that make?
 
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TransWorldOne
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:08 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
WorldFlier wrote:
people are generally happier in Europe than the USA,


Then I happily invite you to relocate there. I'll even help you pack if you'd like.


Wait. So if someone states a fact, you tell them to leave? Does it hurt your feelings that Europeans are generally happier than Americans? Are you the kind of person that believes that the US is the best at everything? If someone points out a gentle criticism about the US, I don't think saying, "well leave then" is a very mature or constructive response.
 
skyharborshome
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:10 pm

StrandedAtMKG wrote:
skyharborshome wrote:
Arizona voters passed a very similar law last year however it was bundled into a minimum wage increase. We hate the changes. Still, when the voters pass something the courts have almost always said only the voters can take it away. This law in AZ screwed over many employees because it took away a week of PTO (used mostly for vacation) and allocated it to be used for only sick time. Also, employees can now contact us by electronic means including text or email which used to be prohibited. The airlines can gripe all they want however it is too late. Very few of us like these types of laws however we are in a wave of employee-friendly initiatives that restrict the rights of employers; some good and some bad.


...wait...

Employers had the option of providing the same amount of PTO in addition to the state-mandated sick leave and chose not to do that (because greed), and the employees are mad at the state? What kind of sense does that make?


Many airlines like other industry provide PTO which employees can take as sick time or vacation time; it is bundled and if an employee never gets sick they effectively use all that time for vacation. When Arizona passed the law much like Washington just did, employers could not afford to give full-time works another week of sick time. So instead the reduced the PTO and allocated the new mandated time as sick time. So, if you used to have 4 weeks of PTO and you used only 2 days as sick and 18 a vacation, now you only get 15 of vacation and HAVE to use the 5 as sick. Is it a huge deal? No. Were the employees still irrate? YES. Employees do not like their benefits messed with.

For part-time employees the law is good because now they get paid sick time. The consequence was for full-time employees at companies with benefits, they had a policy change and we all know how people feel about change. Employees have also complained that now their co-workers can call or text out of work with very little notice several times meaning more work for them and there is absolutely nothing we can do about it until they use up the new legal allotment of hours.
Fly CHD!
 
alasizon
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:24 pm

The issue is more so the way some of these sick time laws were written. For example, the AZ sick time law is 1:30 for part-timers but allows CBAs that offer excess of that to stand. Others require it on top of the CBA accrued time and others also differentiate between penalty free (no dependability/attendance infractions) and non-penalty free time. Airlines, trucking companies and other business who have employees constantly crossing state and city lines can easily have conflicting rules.
Airport (noun) - A construction site which airplanes tend to frequent
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:32 pm

Was is deltas position?

Everyone deserves sick days, I bet you most of their airport employees have minimal or no paid vacation days. Easy for us to sit back and say that's rediculous when we get 20 plus paid days off mostly. I hope the airlines loose this, they can afford this minimal gesture for working families and to keep the public healthier. People work when they shouldn't on hourly jobs because they live pay check to pay check and have rent and kids doctors bills to pay. Seems fair to me, I don't think airlines should be exempt.
 
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spinotter
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:33 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
WorldFlier wrote:
people are generally happier in Europe than the USA,


Then I happily invite you to relocate there. I'll even help you pack if you'd like.


What, are you jealous of the superior benefits of living in Europe? Every country has its own style of living, and here in America we have Donald Trump. The division of profits from enterprises big and small is more equitable in Europe, wouldn't you agree? And the cut-throat injustice of the USA sends out vibes to the entire universe. I guess that you are part of those vibe-makers, right? Stay in the USA and stultify, as I think you already are doing.
 
WkndWanderer
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:05 pm

The airline's preference is simply to bargain one set of work rules with their unions in a CBA and be able to implement them systemwide. Some of these state and local laws have provisions that waive their requirements for employees covered by CBA's, and some don't. Each local variation requires distinct work rules, wage differentials, system programming, etc. The lack of substantive enhancements to federal work rules in a long time have prompted state and local jurisdictions to implement many of their own, but it's also had the effect of creating a more tangled patchwork of regulations for employers to keep up with.
 
zippy
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:40 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
zippy wrote:
There's nothing stopping the airlines from negotiating a single set of rules that will meet the requirements in all states.


So you'd actually advocate every airline being subject to revising the systemwide terms of their various collective bargaining agreements whenever any town, city, county, or state they serve updates their local leave laws?


As opposed to what? Completely ignoring local and regional laws?

Regulations come about at a state level because our federal government is entirely dysfunctional and many folks don't want to continue on a race towards the bottom. Last I checked the federal minimum wage is $2.13/hr for "tipped" positions. If you don't want a patchwork of varying regulations then it's time to start advocating for less laughably bad standards at a federal level.
 
zippy
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:47 pm

WkndWanderer wrote:
The airline's preference is simply to bargain one set of work rules with their unions in a CBA and be able to implement them systemwide. Some of these state and local laws have provisions that waive their requirements for employees covered by CBA's, and some don't. Each local variation requires distinct work rules, wage differentials, system programming, etc. The lack of substantive enhancements to federal work rules in a long time have prompted state and local jurisdictions to implement many of their own, but it's also had the effect of creating a more tangled patchwork of regulations for employers to keep up with.


That said if airlines weren't skirting the bare minimums, the CBAs wouldn't have to be reworked. Where I'm at (non-airline, Fortune 500, non-union) most of the policies are well above the federal minimums and are indeed consistent across all states we have employees in. Unlimited sick leave, accrued PTO, comprehensive family leave, unlimited paid jury duty, etc. Unlimited PTO is one way that tech companies have worked around the cost of PTO. It sounds very generous until you realize that by doing away with accrued leave you do away with the liability of accrued PTO.
 
jayunited
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:54 pm

After reading this thread I think both sides have valid points, it is a bad look when multi-billion dollar companies make a big deal about 6.5 paid sick days especially when companies like UA already provides sick day and allow employees to bank those sick days year over year. In fact depending on the CBA employees can bank up to 1,200 hours of sick time. Without getting to technical UA does allow employees to use their sick time whenever they choose but depending on your CBA you are charged a point against your dependability record. If I am understanding this new law correctly it allows employees to not only accrue but also use 6.5 days a year with out a penalty. For most employees here at UA they can have a total of 8 points in their bank for each sick call you are charged a point the point is returned to your bank one year after the occurrence (an occurrence can be 1 day or multiple days, anything over 3 days in a row you need a doctors note to return to work). If you run out of points one point for each occurrence you are terminated for dependability or lack there of. So for airlines like UA that have a this system in place allowing employees 6.5 days per year is not the problem the problem is the CBA which for all other employees states for each occurrence the employee is charge a point that will no longer apply to employees in Washington State until they have used their 6.5 days. However giving employees 6.5 days without charging them a point equates to the company giving employees an extra 6.5 days of vacation. So employees at SEA who have accrued 4 weeks paid vacation based on their seniority will now under this law have the equivalent of 5 week and .5 days of vacation because they can used an extra 6.5 days paid but without consequence. While employees at other stations could use the same 6.5 days but would be charged a point for each occurrence.
Last edited by jayunited on Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:57 pm

zippy wrote:
WkndWanderer wrote:
The airline's preference is simply to bargain one set of work rules with their unions in a CBA and be able to implement them systemwide. Some of these state and local laws have provisions that waive their requirements for employees covered by CBA's, and some don't. Each local variation requires distinct work rules, wage differentials, system programming, etc. The lack of substantive enhancements to federal work rules in a long time have prompted state and local jurisdictions to implement many of their own, but it's also had the effect of creating a more tangled patchwork of regulations for employers to keep up with.


That said if airlines weren't skirting the bare minimums, the CBAs wouldn't have to be reworked. Where I'm at (non-airline, Fortune 500, non-union) most of the policies are well above the federal minimums and are indeed consistent across all states we have employees in. Unlimited sick leave, accrued PTO, comprehensive family leave, unlimited paid jury duty, etc. Unlimited PTO is one way that tech companies have worked around the cost of PTO. It sounds very generous until you realize that by doing away with accrued leave you do away with the liability of accrued PTO.


The service industry will be hard-pressed to offer everyone those types of benefits. It's not just "greed", but also operational abilities to cope with sudden unplanned absences in industries that rely on unskilled, need-to-be-trained type of work. Of course they can build in layers of staffing - and go out of business (small businesses) or turn to technology instead (large businesses). in the end, it is good for some, bad for others.

And yes, many employees in these cities/states love the benefits and many disrespect it because it enables people to call out more frequently when "everyone knows" they aren't really sick. That doesn't make it a bad law, per se, but it isn't like it's mana from heaven. It adds cost, complexity, and fairness issues that turn an already challenging job (managing/working in a service industry business) into that much more of a challenge. Like the $15 minimum wage initiatives, ultimately it will lead to better for some and nothing for others. It is what it is.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
Route66
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:08 pm

cpd wrote:
I don't know if you live in the state, but if you don't, then who gives you the say on telling other people to leave the USA? This sick leave provision is pretty tiny.


TransWorldOne wrote:
Wait. So if someone states a fact, you tell them to leave? .


It is a bit unfair to attack him when he was told to do the same thing.

WorldFlier wrote:
Don't like the rules. Don't do business here or live here.
 
zippy
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:41 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
The service industry will be hard-pressed to offer everyone those types of benefits. It's not just "greed", but also operational abilities to cope with sudden unplanned absences in industries that rely on unskilled, need-to-be-trained type of work. Of course they can build in layers of staffing - and go out of business (small businesses) or turn to technology instead (large businesses). in the end, it is good for some, bad for others.


In a very general sense, sure. But flight and cabin crew (which are being discussed in this thread) are not unskilled labor nor are they (usually?) temp labor. What's being discussed are benefits for full-time, long-term, skilled employees that work across state (and international) borders.
 
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CitizenJustin
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:09 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
WorldFlier wrote:
people are generally happier in Europe than the USA,


Then I happily invite you to relocate there. I'll even help you pack if you'd like.


Why is it that when someone in America speaks positively about somewhere else, the go to comment for many is “then move there”? Seems rather juvenile.
 
flyguy89
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:21 pm

zippy wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
The service industry will be hard-pressed to offer everyone those types of benefits. It's not just "greed", but also operational abilities to cope with sudden unplanned absences in industries that rely on unskilled, need-to-be-trained type of work. Of course they can build in layers of staffing - and go out of business (small businesses) or turn to technology instead (large businesses). in the end, it is good for some, bad for others.


In a very general sense, sure. But flight and cabin crew (which are being discussed in this thread) are not unskilled labor nor are they (usually?) temp labor. What's being discussed are benefits for full-time, long-term, skilled employees that work across state (and international) borders.

That doesn't change the fact that, similar to food & beverage and retail, airline profit margins are small. I'd venture your non-airline Fortune 500 employer has profit margins quite a bit larger than the average legacy carrier.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:22 pm

Everyone does realize the labor contracts at the airlines prevent giving out bonuses above a certain threshold to prevent favoring one labor group over another? Heck, they're capped on new hire bonuses (for if labor is that dear, pay everyone what they are worth). Yes, I'm aware of profit sharing in contracts, hence why I used the word bonus.

Due to labor contracts, the airlines cannot shift PTO to dedicated sick time. Airlines cannot even just give everyone 6.5 extra days without a new contract (the bonus exceeds thresholds). One state is forcing the airlines to renegotiate outside of the Railway labor act.

States cannot effect interstate trade like this. A moderator must be brought in. AZ was smart enough to exclude collective bargaining. This law was poorly written.

jayunited wrote:
After reading this thread I think both sides have valid points, it is a bad look when multi-billion dollar companies make a big deal about 6.5 paid sick days especially when companies like UA already provides sick day and allow employees to bank those sick days year over year. In fact depending on the CBA employees can bank up to 1,200 hours of sick time. Without getting to technical UA does allow employees to use their sick time whenever they choose but depending on your CBA you are charged a point against your dependability record. If I am understanding this new law correctly it allows employees to not only accrue but also use 6.5 days a year with out a penalty. For most employees here at UA they can have a total of 8 points in their bank for each sick call you are charged a point the point is returned to your bank one year after the occurrence (an occurrence can be 1 day or multiple days, anything over 3 days in a row you need a doctors note to return to work). If you run out of points one point for each occurrence you are terminated for dependability or lack there of. So for airlines like UA that have a this system in place allowing employees 6.5 days per year is not the problem the problem is the CBA which for all other employees states for each occurrence the employee is charge a point that will no longer apply to employees in Washington State until they have used their 6.5 days. However giving employees 6.5 days without charging them a point equates to the company giving employees an extra 6.5 days of vacation. So employees at SEA who have accrued 4 weeks paid vacation based on their seniority will now under this law have the equivalent of 5 week and .5 days of vacation because they can used an extra 6.5 days paid but without consequence. While employees at other stations could use the same 6.5 days but would be charged a point for each occurrence.

What this means is airlines must be able to rewrite their rules based on the mandate.

Or... Follow the law! (RLA).
Something will be worked out, but there is a law for interstate trade. The airlines cannot make their own decision here or favor one group over another. So airlines must sue to bring in moderators.

Lightsaber
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B757Forever
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:25 pm

[quote="slcdeltarumd11"]Was is deltas position?

Delta already meets the requirement of the Washington State law. All DL employees get 56 hours a year of PPT (paid personal time)
The Rolls Royce Dart. Noise = Shaft Horsepower.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:29 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Was is deltas position?

Everyone deserves sick days, I bet you most of their airport employees have minimal or no paid vacation days. Easy for us to sit back and say that's rediculous when we get 20 plus paid days off mostly. I hope the airlines loose this, they can afford this minimal gesture for working families and to keep the public healthier. People work when they shouldn't on hourly jobs because they live pay check to pay check and have rent and kids doctors bills to pay. Seems fair to me, I don't think airlines should be exempt.

These are companies with 4+ weeks of PTO. The issue is one group now has a different PTO rules than another. Does the company just get to dictate to WA employees how their PTO is allocated? No.

RLA negotiators must come in and settle this. These aren't companies who give zero time off.

The issue is how to deal with other employees in other states as the airlines *must* pay all the same pay and days off. That is the RLA.

E.g., at UA you get 8 sick events. That isn't bad. But the Federal law forces airlines to offer the same PTO to everyone. WA just forced airlines to cleave off 6.5 days per year of PTO into a sick pool, but airlines cannot do that. The law doesn't require 4weeks PTO (which is actually 4 weeks, not 20 days IIRC).

Please recall this is a 24/7 industry. How does B6 handle pilots based at LGB, JFK, or BOS?

The Federal government will rule on this.

Note: For 'outsourced' employees, this is overdue.

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CitizenJustin
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:32 pm

skyharborshome wrote:
Arizona voters passed a very similar law last year however it was bundled into a minimum wage increase. We hate the changes. Still, when the voters pass something the courts have almost always said only the voters can take it away. This law in AZ screwed over many employees because it took away a week of PTO (used mostly for vacation) and allocated it to be used for only sick time. Also, employees can now contact us by electronic means including text or email which used to be prohibited. The airlines can gripe all they want however it is too late. Very few of us like these types of laws however we are in a wave of employee-friendly initiatives that restrict the rights of employers; some good and some bad.


“ Employees can now contact us by electronic means, including text or email” And? I’ve been so deathly ill before it was impossible for me to make a call. Also, employees are not children checking in with their parents. The outcome is the same if the employee calls in or emails, they’re not coming in, so why does it matter? Speaking on the phone is a waste of everyone’s time.

“Employee friendly initiatives” In America? Heaven forbid! Let’s not even mention the billions companies lose every year due to sick employees showing up out of fear, infecting everyone else. American’s seem to have this erroneous belief that missing work due to illness, taking vacation or demanding better conditions equals laziness. These benefits are proven to increase productivity in the end. No job is worth damaging or losing the only body you’ll ever have.
 
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:45 pm

lightsaber wrote:
These are companies with 4+ weeks of PTO. The issue is one group now has a different PTO rules than another. Does the company just get to dictate to WA employees how their PTO is allocated? No.

RLA negotiators must come in and settle this. These aren't companies who give zero time off.

The issue is how to deal with other employees in other states as the airlines *must* pay all the same pay and days off. That is the RLA.




Finally, common sense prevails.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:45 pm

zippy wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
The service industry will be hard-pressed to offer everyone those types of benefits. It's not just "greed", but also operational abilities to cope with sudden unplanned absences in industries that rely on unskilled, need-to-be-trained type of work. Of course they can build in layers of staffing - and go out of business (small businesses) or turn to technology instead (large businesses). in the end, it is good for some, bad for others.


In a very general sense, sure. But flight and cabin crew (which are being discussed in this thread) are not unskilled labor nor are they (usually?) temp labor. What's being discussed are benefits for full-time, long-term, skilled employees that work across state (and international) borders.


Of course. I was replying to your non-airline comment so I guess I thought it was ok.....

CitizenJustin wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
WorldFlier wrote:
people are generally happier in Europe than the USA,


Then I happily invite you to relocate there. I'll even help you pack if you'd like.


Why is it that when someone in America speaks positively about somewhere else, the go to comment for many is “then move there”? Seems rather juvenile.


I don't think that's the issue personally. I think it's when we're told that because other countries do it a certain way that we should too that some people get irked. To each their own. In the end, virtually nobody is actually going to move over something like this.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
StrandedAtMKG
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:50 pm

skyharborshome wrote:
StrandedAtMKG wrote:
skyharborshome wrote:
Arizona voters passed a very similar law last year however it was bundled into a minimum wage increase. We hate the changes. Still, when the voters pass something the courts have almost always said only the voters can take it away. This law in AZ screwed over many employees because it took away a week of PTO (used mostly for vacation) and allocated it to be used for only sick time. Also, employees can now contact us by electronic means including text or email which used to be prohibited. The airlines can gripe all they want however it is too late. Very few of us like these types of laws however we are in a wave of employee-friendly initiatives that restrict the rights of employers; some good and some bad.


...wait...

Employers had the option of providing the same amount of PTO in addition to the state-mandated sick leave and chose not to do that (because greed), and the employees are mad at the state? What kind of sense does that make?


Many airlines like other industry provide PTO which employees can take as sick time or vacation time; it is bundled and if an employee never gets sick they effectively use all that time for vacation. When Arizona passed the law much like Washington just did, employers could not afford to give full-time works another week of sick time. So instead the reduced the PTO and allocated the new mandated time as sick time. So, if you used to have 4 weeks of PTO and you used only 2 days as sick and 18 a vacation, now you only get 15 of vacation and HAVE to use the 5 as sick. Is it a huge deal? No. Were the employees still irrate? YES. Employees do not like their benefits messed with.

For part-time employees the law is good because now they get paid sick time. The consequence was for full-time employees at companies with benefits, they had a policy change and we all know how people feel about change. Employees have also complained that now their co-workers can call or text out of work with very little notice several times meaning more work for them and there is absolutely nothing we can do about it until they use up the new legal allotment of hours.


Don't tell me that companies making $2-5B of profit per year can't afford sick leave for their employees. It makes you look gullible.
 
jayunited
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:56 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Everyone does realize the labor contracts at the airlines prevent giving out bonuses above a certain threshold to prevent favoring one labor group over another? Heck, they're capped on new hire bonuses (for if labor is that dear, pay everyone what they are worth). Yes, I'm aware of profit sharing in contracts, hence why I used the word bonus.

Due to labor contracts, the airlines cannot shift PTO to dedicated sick time. Airlines cannot even just give everyone 6.5 extra days without a new contract (the bonus exceeds thresholds). One state is forcing the airlines to renegotiate outside of the Railway labor act.

States cannot effect interstate trade like this. A moderator must be brought in. AZ was smart enough to exclude collective bargaining. This law was poorly written.

jayunited wrote:
After reading this thread I think both sides have valid points, it is a bad look when multi-billion dollar companies make a big deal about 6.5 paid sick days especially when companies like UA already provides sick day and allow employees to bank those sick days year over year. In fact depending on the CBA employees can bank up to 1,200 hours of sick time. Without getting to technical UA does allow employees to use their sick time whenever they choose but depending on your CBA you are charged a point against your dependability record. If I am understanding this new law correctly it allows employees to not only accrue but also use 6.5 days a year with out a penalty. For most employees here at UA they can have a total of 8 points in their bank for each sick call you are charged a point the point is returned to your bank one year after the occurrence (an occurrence can be 1 day or multiple days, anything over 3 days in a row you need a doctors note to return to work). If you run out of points one point for each occurrence you are terminated for dependability or lack there of. So for airlines like UA that have a this system in place allowing employees 6.5 days per year is not the problem the problem is the CBA which for all other employees states for each occurrence the employee is charge a point that will no longer apply to employees in Washington State until they have used their 6.5 days. However giving employees 6.5 days without charging them a point equates to the company giving employees an extra 6.5 days of vacation. So employees at SEA who have accrued 4 weeks paid vacation based on their seniority will now under this law have the equivalent of 5 week and .5 days of vacation because they can used an extra 6.5 days paid but without consequence. While employees at other stations could use the same 6.5 days but would be charged a point for each occurrence.

What this means is airlines must be able to rewrite their rules based on the mandate.

Or... Follow the law! (RLA).
Something will be worked out, but there is a law for interstate trade. The airlines cannot make their own decision here or favor one group over another. So airlines must sue to bring in moderators.

Lightsaber


Exactly I was simply trying to give people who don't work for an airline a glimpse into how the system works and the reasons why an airline like UA is suing. Some people early in this thread claimed the airlines are suing out of greed. I was trying to show its not greed but if the airlines did nothing and just followed the law as written this law would equate to UA employees receiving an additional 6.5 days of paid vacation because every UA employee already accrues sick time and can use that sick time whenever they choose. However using that sick time counts against each employees points or dependability record which would not be the case for UA employees in Washington State who would be allowed to use 6.5 days with no deduction from their 8 points tally or what ever has been negotiated in their CBA.
However on the flip side I do understand why the general public would take the stance "greedy airlines". It is because most people who do not work for an airline have not idea how each individual airline operates all they see is the headlines that state airlines are suing and immediately they jump to the conclusion it is because airlines don't want to give their workers paid sick time or PTO this is why I said I understand both sides of the argument because to the general public it does look bad because they don't understand why the airlines are suing.
 
32andBelow
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:02 am

EA CO AS wrote:
zippy wrote:
There's nothing stopping the airlines from negotiating a single set of rules that will meet the requirements in all states.


So you'd actually advocate every airline being subject to revising the systemwide terms of their various collective bargaining agreements whenever any town, city, county, or state they serve updates their local leave laws?

Are airlines forced to tax crews at different rates? A laws a law. Get over it.
 
IPFreely
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:04 am

WorldFlier wrote:
people are generally happier in Europe than the USA


Actions speak louder than words. What are the immigration numbers for people moving from the US to Europe (in search of general happiness), net of immigration from Europe to the US?
 
DfwRevolution
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:24 am

CitizenJustin wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
WorldFlier wrote:
people are generally happier in Europe than the USA,


Then I happily invite you to relocate there. I'll even help you pack if you'd like.


Why is it that when someone in America speaks positively about somewhere else, the go to comment for many is “then move there”? Seems rather juvenile.


Every American is here by their choice or a choice of their ancestors. Many people came to the United States because they didn't want other people's views forced on them. Those who are enamored with other societies are welcome to exercise their power of choice and move there. There's nothing flippant about that.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
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zeke
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:29 am

EA CO AS wrote:
There's actually a lot more to this; the law circumvents existing CBAs that are intended to ensure all employees are treated equitably.


Why would it circumvent the CBA?

Isn’t this law saying what the minimum will be in that state, would think you can always agree to higher ?
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
ASFlyer
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:41 am

EA CO AS wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
These are companies with 4+ weeks of PTO. The issue is one group now has a different PTO rules than another. Does the company just get to dictate to WA employees how their PTO is allocated? No.

RLA negotiators must come in and settle this. These aren't companies who give zero time off.

The issue is how to deal with other employees in other states as the airlines *must* pay all the same pay and days off. That is the RLA.




Finally, common sense prevails.


Actually, I think there is more to it. Alaska has already gone to arbitration over just this type of issue with the FA's, though with respect to family leave laws. Alaska lost that arbitration and an arbitrator agreed that Alaska needed to apply the most generous of the laws to all employees without regard for the base they were assigned to. As a result, one can call in "sick family" and not receive any type of discipline or associated points (as you would if just using the contractual sick leave policy) if based in ANC, even though the laws there are not the same as they are in, say, CA. So it confuses me, and I think they're not being completely truthful, when they say that they wonder how it would apply as crews travel across various state lines. They have a ruling that actually speaks to this already.
 
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:43 am

32andBelow wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
zippy wrote:
There's nothing stopping the airlines from negotiating a single set of rules that will meet the requirements in all states.


So you'd actually advocate every airline being subject to revising the systemwide terms of their various collective bargaining agreements whenever any town, city, county, or state they serve updates their local leave laws?

Are airlines forced to tax crews at different rates? A laws a law. Get over it.


It’s a law that cannot supersede federal law per the commerce clause. Get over it.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
jeffrey1970
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:52 am

This is so typical of companies trying to wiggle their way out of helping their employees.
God bless through Jesus, Jeff
 
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:05 am

jeffrey1970 wrote:
This is so typical of companies trying to wiggle their way out of helping their employees.


Did you even READ the complaint, or the article? IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH NOT HELPING EMPLOYEES. The employees typically receive benefits already in excess of what the new state law requires, and for employees whose work location is in that state, the companies comply accordingly, even though it sometimes affords protections to employees that their co-workers - under the same contract - do not have. The suit is because FLIGHT CREWS who do not have just one state where their work takes place are difficult to account for under the various state and local laws that voters come up with.

Since flight crews engage in interstate commerce as part of their duties, the commerce clause supersedes these state and local laws, while the states believe their laws should prevail, hence the decision to let the courts have their say on this.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group

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