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WkndWanderer
Posts: 291
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:07 am

lightsaber wrote:
Everyone does realize the labor contracts at the airlines prevent giving out bonuses above a certain threshold to prevent favoring one labor group over another? Heck, they're capped on new hire bonuses (for if labor is that dear, pay everyone what they are worth). Yes, I'm aware of profit sharing in contracts, hence why I used the word bonus.

Due to labor contracts, the airlines cannot shift PTO to dedicated sick time. Airlines cannot even just give everyone 6.5 extra days without a new contract (the bonus exceeds thresholds). One state is forcing the airlines to renegotiate outside of the Railway labor act.

States cannot effect interstate trade like this. A moderator must be brought in. AZ was smart enough to exclude collective bargaining. This law was poorly written.

jayunited wrote:
After reading this thread I think both sides have valid points, it is a bad look when multi-billion dollar companies make a big deal about 6.5 paid sick days especially when companies like UA already provides sick day and allow employees to bank those sick days year over year. In fact depending on the CBA employees can bank up to 1,200 hours of sick time. Without getting to technical UA does allow employees to use their sick time whenever they choose but depending on your CBA you are charged a point against your dependability record. If I am understanding this new law correctly it allows employees to not only accrue but also use 6.5 days a year with out a penalty. For most employees here at UA they can have a total of 8 points in their bank for each sick call you are charged a point the point is returned to your bank one year after the occurrence (an occurrence can be 1 day or multiple days, anything over 3 days in a row you need a doctors note to return to work). If you run out of points one point for each occurrence you are terminated for dependability or lack there of. So for airlines like UA that have a this system in place allowing employees 6.5 days per year is not the problem the problem is the CBA which for all other employees states for each occurrence the employee is charge a point that will no longer apply to employees in Washington State until they have used their 6.5 days. However giving employees 6.5 days without charging them a point equates to the company giving employees an extra 6.5 days of vacation. So employees at SEA who have accrued 4 weeks paid vacation based on their seniority will now under this law have the equivalent of 5 week and .5 days of vacation because they can used an extra 6.5 days paid but without consequence. While employees at other stations could use the same 6.5 days but would be charged a point for each occurrence.

What this means is airlines must be able to rewrite their rules based on the mandate.

Or... Follow the law! (RLA).
Something will be worked out, but there is a law for interstate trade. The airlines cannot make their own decision here or favor one group over another. So airlines must sue to bring in moderators.

Lightsaber


Except that the RLA doesn't automatically preempt all state and local worker protections and civil rights legislation and workers can still be entitled to statutory rights that are independent of CBA's under state laws. Alaska made the same federal RLA preemption argument when they sued to block the SeaTac minimum wage in 2015 and lost.
Last edited by WkndWanderer on Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
WkndWanderer
Posts: 291
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:17 am

lightsaber wrote:

The issue is how to deal with other employees in other states as the airlines *must* pay all the same pay and days off. That is the RLA.

Lightsaber


No, it isn't. There are wage differential and minimum wage adjustments paid in supplement to CBA base rates to pay affected employees who are impacted by state, local, and airport ordinances related to minimum wage, minimum compensation, or "living wage" compliance based on their work location.
 
CobaltScar
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:30 am

B6 already has different crew policies in different states. California, New York, and probably soon MASS have enhanced family leave and sick time laws. Florida does not. You are subject to the laws of the state you are based in. Is it fair that crew in California get to call out sick and not get penalty points but those in Florida do? Nope , its not. They could give crew in Florida the same benefits as California/New York crew, but they don't because <fill in the blank>.

From what I'm reading of these WA state law, what the airlines will do is just shave off X amount of PTO and magically call it sick time. Same difference. It only really matters if suddenly you can use time from this sick bank pool without penalty. Then it is actually a worthwhile change.
 
cpd
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:32 am

lightsaber wrote:
Everyone does realize the labor contracts at the airlines prevent giving out bonuses above a certain threshold to prevent favoring one labor group over another? Heck, they're capped on new hire bonuses (for if labor is that dear, pay everyone what they are worth). Yes, I'm aware of profit sharing in contracts, hence why I used the word bonus.


There are more things companies can do aside from giving out bonuses. It's about the style of management, trusting and empowering your workforce. All those things. A happy workforce is one that will go above and beyond the call of duty for you time and again.
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:45 am

WkndWanderer wrote:
lightsaber wrote:

The issue is how to deal with other employees in other states as the airlines *must* pay all the same pay and days off. That is the RLA.

Lightsaber


No, it isn't. There are wage differential and minimum wage adjustments paid in supplement to CBA base rates to pay affected employees who are impacted by state, local, and airport ordinances related to minimum wage, minimum compensation, or "living wage" compliance based on their work location.


Each of which are defined as part of the CBA, or a side letter of agreement, agreed to and signed off on by both parties - the union, and the company.

And these laws are, obviously, NOT.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:01 am

I'm actually more surprised in the fact Seattle/Washington is becoming more crazy than California. Oh well, all the businesses should pack up and move to California anyway (who is also doing better economically as well), then the People's Republic of Washington can see what a failure this is.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
RIP US Airways
 
WkndWanderer
Posts: 291
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:05 am

EA CO AS wrote:
WkndWanderer wrote:
lightsaber wrote:

The issue is how to deal with other employees in other states as the airlines *must* pay all the same pay and days off. That is the RLA.

Lightsaber


No, it isn't. There are wage differential and minimum wage adjustments paid in supplement to CBA base rates to pay affected employees who are impacted by state, local, and airport ordinances related to minimum wage, minimum compensation, or "living wage" compliance based on their work location.


Each of which are defined as part of the CBA, or a side letter of agreement, agreed to and signed off on by both parties - the union, and the company.

And these laws are, obviously, NOT.


CBA's lay out a process in the event a provision is affected or invalidated by legislation that usually state the remainder of the agreement remains in effect and lays out a timeline or automatic demand to bargain for the parties to meet to meet and re-bargain or modify the affected language. Many laws and ordinances that affect working conditions under CBA's specifically exempt existing agreements that were in place before the law went into affect until the next time the CBA expires or is renewed.
 
Passedv1
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:32 am

Actually, Alaska’s California based crews already receive better disability benefits then all other flight crews. This is totally about the bottom line. I guarantee you Alaska did a cost benefit analysis and it came out that the chance of a win would save enough money to justify the legal expenses in the event of a loss.

If all they were concerned about was uniformity, it would be a simple matter to implement the improved benefits system wide.

Alaska’ margin is near 20% which is comparable to many other non-airline companies.

If you are going to claim pre-emotion the burden of proof would be on you to show that the law is in fact preempted. If their is a way you comply with both the RLA and the new local law then preemption would be moot. Since as far as I know the RLA does not talk about sick leave, I can’t see how it would preempt this law.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:50 am

EA CO AS wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:

So you'd actually advocate every airline being subject to revising the systemwide terms of their various collective bargaining agreements whenever any town, city, county, or state they serve updates their local leave laws?

Are airlines forced to tax crews at different rates? A laws a law. Get over it.


It’s a law that cannot supersede federal law per the commerce clause. Get over it.

Just to be clear, all airlines must meet the minimum unless the Federal law prevails.

To others:
You cannot modify a contract at whim. The airlines exceed the minimum. If they must firewall 6.5 days of PTO for every Washington employee, they must. Could they just hire 2% more people to cover the off time? Sure. Let each union decide in negotiations what they prefer.

Collective bargaining isn't superceeded by a state's law. For example, California tried to impose more healcare costs on my employer. The issue is the company pays a fixed amount, all mandates are paid by employees. Since taxes on healthcare are higher in California, I pay twice for health insurance what a coworker in Texas pays.

The same is true of PTO. I expect PTO to be put in a bank. If a state demands a cutout, employees in that state will be subject to it.

Airlines provide more than the minimum. Thus, no addition is required.

Most employers offer a metropolitan adjustment in pay based on cost of living. Perhaps each group should negotiate for a pot of money and adjust.

Most employees pay the local taxes/fees on benefits. Is it time for airline employees?

Tickets from an airport are assigned costs due to local taxes. We've seen unprofitable routes cut.

Air travel is a very elastic market; elastic on time and money. Look at how much further people drive now due to the time and costs the TSA imposed. Maybe I'm just bitter as my employer just sold the building I work in. That means one building of jobs leaves California and goes to Florida, Colorado, or Texas. :(

The building is being torn down for condos. Just as building that were for 9,000 people were torn down and made into townhomes and condos. We still employee as many people, just elsewhere.

Don't wish for exceptionally high costs. AS could HQ say... in Alaska.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
jeffrey1970
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:53 am

EA CO AS wrote:
jeffrey1970 wrote:
This is so typical of companies trying to wiggle their way out of helping their employees.


Did you even READ the complaint, or the article? IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH NOT HELPING EMPLOYEES. The employees typically receive benefits already in excess of what the new state law requires, and for employees whose work location is in that state, the companies comply accordingly, even though it sometimes affords protections to employees that their co-workers - under the same contract - do not have. The suit is because FLIGHT CREWS who do not have just one state where their work takes place are difficult to account for under the various state and local laws that voters come up with.

Since flight crews engage in interstate commerce as part of their duties, the commerce clause supersedes these state and local laws, while the states believe their laws should prevail, hence the decision to let the courts have their say on this.




There is no reason for the all caps. You should be able to get your point across without yelling.
God bless through Jesus, Jeff
 
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lebda
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:37 am

Super80Fan wrote:
I'm actually more surprised in the fact Seattle/Washington is becoming more crazy than California. Oh well, all the businesses should pack up and move to California anyway (who is also doing better economically as well), then the People's Republic of Washington can see what a failure this is.


I live in Washington state, and formerly lived in California. It's very different from California.

Putting laws in place to prevent employers from treating workers like chattel is hardly a radical thing. The law itself is like the bare minimum of protection. A lot more could (and tbh should) be done.
Denver Tower: Gulfstream 592, you’re cleared to 9,000 feet. For a vector to Hector, contact the sector director.
 
ASFlyer
Posts: 1734
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:58 am

Passedv1 wrote:
Actually, Alaska’s California based crews already receive better disability benefits then all other flight crews. This is totally about the bottom line. I guarantee you Alaska did a cost benefit analysis and it came out that the chance of a win would save enough money to justify the legal expenses in the event of a loss.


While I agree that this is all about the bottom line, the California based FA's receive the same disability benefits as all other flight crews. The state laws may differ but, per the Roberts arbitration award, the company must apply the same benefit across all FA's at all bases.
 
IndyHoosier
Posts: 86
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:59 am

DfwRevolution wrote:
CitizenJustin wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:

Then I happily invite you to relocate there. I'll even help you pack if you'd like.


Why is it that when someone in America speaks positively about somewhere else, the go to comment for many is “then move there”? Seems rather juvenile.


Every American is here by their choice or a choice of their ancestors.


Hmm, sounds like you missed a couple sections of history class.
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:46 am

IndyHoosier wrote:
DfwRevolution wrote:
CitizenJustin wrote:

Why is it that when someone in America speaks positively about somewhere else, the go to comment for many is “then move there”? Seems rather juvenile.


Every American is here by their choice or a choice of their ancestors.


Hmm, sounds like you missed a couple sections of history class.


And you quoted the wrong person.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
IndyHoosier
Posts: 86
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:35 am

Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:22 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
IndyHoosier wrote:
DfwRevolution wrote:

Every American is here by their choice or a choice of their ancestors.


Hmm, sounds like you missed a couple sections of history class.


And you quoted the wrong person.


No, I quoted the correct person. Thanks.
 
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ramprat74
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:22 pm

The city of Portland, Oregon started a sick time ordinance a few years ago. The ordinance states any company that has a business in the city limits must give their employees 40 hours of sick time a year without retaliation. So with my airline and our CBA, the employees can take 4-10 sick days a year before they even get to the companies sick time point system. My company flew out their lawyers to fight this also. I would say that the part timers take advantage of this policy more then the full timers seeing it's hours and not days. The part shifts are from 4-6 hours.
 
N212R
Posts: 333
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:18 pm

Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:33 pm

Super80Fan wrote:
then the People's Republic of Washington can see what a failure this is.


should read the People's Republic of King (and Pierce) County, the rest of the state is reasonably sane.
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: AS, B6, UA & WN fight WA State's new sick leave law

Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:37 pm

N212R wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
then the People's Republic of Washington can see what a failure this is.


should read the People's Republic of King (and Pierce) County, the rest of the state is reasonably sane.


My mistake, you are correct.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
RIP US Airways

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