migair54
Topic Author
Posts: 2374
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:24 am

BCN to increase capacity to 70M/Year

Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:56 pm

Barcelona airport will get a new satellite terminal for long haul/Intercontinental flights by 2026. 200 million euros for the satellite but total investment in Catalunya airports to go up to 2.000 millions, seems a lot but I hope we can see soon the whole project and the construction schedules.
Hopefully the area will start recovering from the last years of craziness and dumbness and continue with a normal life.

The capacity will go up to 70 million pax a year and also big investments in other areas of the airport also in Girona-Costa Brava airport. Interesting that the government will add a new high speed train connection to Girona airport so pax can reach Barcelona city in 40 mins only and the line could even link both airports in the future.
It's great to see how BCN is getting more and more traffic and I hope we can see more Spanish airlines adding flights, more long haul and connecting traffic.

Link in Spanish
http://www.abc.es/espana/catalunya/econ ... ticia.html
 
LupineChemist
Posts: 643
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:03 am

Re: BCN to increase capacity to 70M/Year

Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:19 pm

Is there any indication the political instability will die down? Or is the idea that people will just start ignoring it?

That might work for tourism, but I can't see business travel going up until there is actually some sort of resolution to all of this madness. Aren't YoY numbers dramatically lower due to all of this?

I suspect not much will happen, existing businesses will soldier on and very few new businesses (especially multinationals) will be looking at Catalonia, so the tourist demand will continue but business demand is likely to remain weak for a very long time.
 
LEBL
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:41 pm

Re: BCN to increase capacity to 70M/Year

Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:16 pm

Hello All

This makes me think, are the two terminals running out space already? Can't talk about T1 as most of flights I take depart/arrive from terminal 2 and there appears to be still quite a bit of gate space available. Out of the 4 gate "triangles", whole of "S" seems to be seldom used, plus each of gate areas has got 4 (?) bus gates on lower level. Looks to me like fair bit of capacity is still available at T2, please correct me if I am wrong.

In regards to T1 satellite terminal, there aren't many official project documents available, does anyone know if this is still terminal's planned form? http://archcase.com/ricardobofill/portf ... a-airport/

Related to construction, tunnelling works on rail link connecting El Prat (and Barcelona) with terminals 1 and 2 started in September (link to article). I believe project completion is schedulled for 2020, does anyone have any information whether this will replace current bus shuttle between terminals 1 and 2? Didn't happen when Metro L9 connected T1 and T2, so I don't have high hopes for that. (Link to project documentation).

LEBL
 
migair54
Topic Author
Posts: 2374
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:24 am

Re: BCN to increase capacity to 70M/Year

Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:17 pm

LupineChemist wrote:
Is there any indication the political instability will die down? Or is the idea that people will just start ignoring it?

That might work for tourism, but I can't see business travel going up until there is actually some sort of resolution to all of this madness. Aren't YoY numbers dramatically lower due to all of this?

I suspect not much will happen, existing businesses will soldier on and very few new businesses (especially multinationals) will be looking at Catalonia, so the tourist demand will continue but business demand is likely to remain weak for a very long time.


It's true that the whole situation damage Catalunya a lot, and it will be difficult to sort out, but I think more and more people is ignoring this and trying to go back to normal, so much investment and so many companies left Catalunya, it's sad, we have very bad politicians in both sides in Spain, but hopefully slowly things will go back to normal.

Actually in the last years BCN was doing very good, and some new airlines started long haul flying to BCN and some other show interest and I hope they start flying soon.
 
r2rho
Posts: 3096
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:13 pm

Re: BCN to increase capacity to 70M/Year

Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:28 pm

Although BCN will eventually need an expansion, which I support, but I'm not sure this makes sense yet.

Growth in T2:
Last time I was there, there was still a considerable section of T2 (old terminal) empty/mothballed and unused. I would start by growing into there first. T2 airside is a very nice facility, landside it could use a bit of freshening up as has been done in MAD in the past. Aena could incentivize Skyteam or Star to move their operations there, I don't get the strategy of cramming everyone into T1 (new terminal). There is even room to grow T2 very easily towards the East by another "triangle" or two. T2 also has the better train connection, though this is supposed to be extended to T1 sometime before 2026.

Pax numbers
The numbers say the current terminals are sized for 55 Mio pax, and BCN broke a record at 47 Mio in 2017... that's an 8 Mio pax margin (likely most in the empty areas of T2 as T1 is pretty busy overall) left in the airport. That's a 15% growth margin in pax, so yes, some expansion should start to be planned for...

But a satellite building increases times and distances for passengers, and the APM is expensive to build an operate - don't build it until you really need it. Also, I infer from the articles that the APM will only go between T1 and the satellite, not to T2 - which reduces operational flexibility and futher hinders optimal distribution of capacity between T1-T2.
Even with the satellite, I wonder if the runways won't max out before the terminals do? To reach the envisioned 70 Mio pax, BCN would have to have a similar aircraft size mix as LHR... Which leads us to:

Aircraft movements
MUC is crying for a third runway at just 42 Mio pax and some 400,000 movements, so BCN at 47 Mio and 320,000 does seem to lie somewhere in between MUC and LHR.
BCN had 323.539 operations in 2017 - that leaves about 100,000 until reaching saturation. Pre-(economic)crisis, it peaked at 343,000. I do believe BCN could some day reach 70Mio pax, but with just two independent runways...? Not so sure.
https://es.statista.com/estadisticas/61 ... a-el-prat/

In short, I do think the satellite should be built at some point post-2025, but I think using the easily available opportunities in T2 should come first. And then see how the pax mix evolves, and if a two indep runway airport can even handle those 70 Mio pax.

Given the lack so far of any official documents or Master Plans, this looks to be an initial "LOI" between politicians, with the details to be worked later on...

Here two articles in Spanish with more detailed infos:
http://www.elmundo.es/economia/empresas ... b466c.html

http://www.lavanguardia.com/economia/20 ... minal.html
 
r2rho
Posts: 3096
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:13 pm

Re: BCN to increase capacity to 70M/Year

Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:52 pm

As for the high speed rail station at GRO… this is such a no-brainer, that I see it more as correcting an original planning mistake. Building the HSR line right past the airport without making a stop at it was stupid. The idea to operate GRO in a coordinated manner as BCN's "4th runway" (or 3rd independent) makes a lot of sense. However, I measure a 500m distance from the rail line to the terminal… a bit too far to walk, but too short to need a shuttle bus. I'd like to know how they plan to exceute this...
 
LupineChemist
Posts: 643
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:03 am

Re: BCN to increase capacity to 70M/Year

Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:31 pm

The current distance from the Metro stop to T1 is around 500m walk in Madrid. Similarly in Barajas, just from security to the end of T4 is a 500m walk.

Seems like a pretty reasonable walk to me. If they're really concerned, I'm sure they could do a bus running a few cycles. You'd get pretty good frequency with just one.
 
migair54
Topic Author
Posts: 2374
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:24 am

Re: BCN to increase capacity to 70M/Year

Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:08 pm

r2rho wrote:
As for the high speed rail station at GRO… this is such a no-brainer, that I see it more as correcting an original planning mistake. Building the HSR line right past the airport without making a stop at it was stupid. The idea to operate GRO in a coordinated manner as BCN's "4th runway" (or 3rd independent) makes a lot of sense. However, I measure a 500m distance from the rail line to the terminal… a bit too far to walk, but too short to need a shuttle bus. I'd like to know how they plan to exceute this...


500m is not much in any airport, usually from any parking to the counters is like that or more, they can have some belts to make it faster and more comfortable. Did they have any pre-existing work in place for the HSR?? maybe it was planned like in MAD but it was not built because at that time it was not necessary.

r2rho wrote:
Although BCN will eventually need an expansion, which I support, but I'm not sure this makes sense yet.

Growth in T2:
Last time I was there, there was still a considerable section of T2 (old terminal) empty/mothballed and unused. I would start by growing into there first. T2 airside is a very nice facility, landside it could use a bit of freshening up as has been done in MAD in the past. Aena could incentivize Skyteam or Star to move their operations there, I don't get the strategy of cramming everyone into T1 (new terminal). There is even room to grow T2 very easily towards the East by another "triangle" or two. T2 also has the better train connection, though this is supposed to be extended to T1 sometime before 2026.

Pax numbers
The numbers say the current terminals are sized for 55 Mio pax, and BCN broke a record at 47 Mio in 2017... that's an 8 Mio pax margin (likely most in the empty areas of T2 as T1 is pretty busy overall) left in the airport. That's a 15% growth margin in pax, so yes, some expansion should start to be planned for...

But a satellite building increases times and distances for passengers, and the APM is expensive to build an operate - don't build it until you really need it. Also, I infer from the articles that the APM will only go between T1 and the satellite, not to T2 - which reduces operational flexibility and futher hinders optimal distribution of capacity between T1-T2.
Even with the satellite, I wonder if the runways won't max out before the terminals do? To reach the envisioned 70 Mio pax, BCN would have to have a similar aircraft size mix as LHR... Which leads us to:

Aircraft movements
MUC is crying for a third runway at just 42 Mio pax and some 400,000 movements, so BCN at 47 Mio and 320,000 does seem to lie somewhere in between MUC and LHR.
BCN had 323.539 operations in 2017 - that leaves about 100,000 until reaching saturation. Pre-(economic)crisis, it peaked at 343,000. I do believe BCN could some day reach 70Mio pax, but with just two independent runways...? Not so sure.
https://es.statista.com/estadisticas/61 ... a-el-prat/

In short, I do think the satellite should be built at some point post-2025, but I think using the easily available opportunities in T2 should come first. And then see how the pax mix evolves, and if a two indep runway airport can even handle those 70 Mio pax.

Given the lack so far of any official documents or Master Plans, this looks to be an initial "LOI" between politicians, with the details to be worked later on...

Here two articles in Spanish with more detailed infos:
http://www.elmundo.es/economia/empresas ... b466c.html

http://www.lavanguardia.com/economia/20 ... minal.html


BCN has 47,3M pax in 2017, if they keep an steady 3-4% growth, by 2026 BCN could have around 55M pax, and that's the actual max capacity, so I don't think it's a bad move because the last years the increase in pax is more than that, I think they are really thinking in the future of the region and that's good, GRO is a great option for Barcelona, Girona and Costa Brava, so improving the links is also great for pax and airlines.
It is also true that I think in the future BCN will need another runway but that won't be that easy, the space left is not much and it will be quite costly, maybe a paralel 20/02.
 
YIMBY
Posts: 419
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:32 pm

Re: BCN to increase capacity to 70M/Year

Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:09 pm

Would high speed train affect the growth rate?
 
tomkell92
Posts: 129
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:20 pm

Re: BCN to increase capacity to 70M/Year

Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:23 pm

This isn't anything new. They've been planning to build a satellite terminal at BCN for years - it's quite well talked about in various news articles and even on the airport's Wiki page!

See below link to proposed plans by architect Ricardo Bofill (same guy that did the rest of the airport):
https://archinect.com/ricardo_bofill_ta ... na-airport
Tom
 
r2rho
Posts: 3096
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:13 pm

Re: BCN to increase capacity to 70M/Year

Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:06 am

Another thing I miss here is REU.... if GRO can be the 4th runway, REU should be the 5th. But it looks like the rail station will be built on the wrong side of the airport, missing that opportunity. On top, places like Cambrils and Salou may lose their rail connection altogether, and there is no overall transportation plan for the Camp de Tarragona area. I guess they will build it wrong and then correct the mistakes in some years...
 
c933103
Posts: 2741
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: BCN to increase capacity to 70M/Year

Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:37 am

LupineChemist wrote:
Is there any indication the political instability will die down? Or is the idea that people will just start ignoring it?

That might work for tourism, but I can't see business travel going up until there is actually some sort of resolution to all of this madness. Aren't YoY numbers dramatically lower due to all of this?

I suspect not much will happen, existing businesses will soldier on and very few new businesses (especially multinationals) will be looking at Catalonia, so the tourist demand will continue but business demand is likely to remain weak for a very long time.

The attempt in 2017 have already died as it is, and the overall atmosphere is generally the same as any point in the past decade, if I understand it correctly
 
LupineChemist
Posts: 643
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:03 am

Re: BCN to increase capacity to 70M/Year

Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:45 am

c933103 wrote:
LupineChemist wrote:
Is there any indication the political instability will die down? Or is the idea that people will just start ignoring it?

That might work for tourism, but I can't see business travel going up until there is actually some sort of resolution to all of this madness. Aren't YoY numbers dramatically lower due to all of this?

I suspect not much will happen, existing businesses will soldier on and very few new businesses (especially multinationals) will be looking at Catalonia, so the tourist demand will continue but business demand is likely to remain weak for a very long time.

The attempt in 2017 have already died as it is, and the overall atmosphere is generally the same as any point in the past decade, if I understand it correctly


I can tell you with confidence that this is just plain false in the business community. The people responsible for the 2017 mess are still the majority in the Generalitat and there is no indication they won't try anything equally as crazy in the future despite infighting now. Basically the risk is currently seen as not worth the risk of fleeing but also not worth establishing any new operation in Catalonia. This will severely limit growth and lower yields to BCN as eventually it will mean far fewer business travelers unless they get some sort of plan sorted out.
 
r2rho
Posts: 3096
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:13 pm

Re: BCN to increase capacity to 70M/Year

Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:59 pm

Related to construction, tunnelling works on rail link connecting El Prat (and Barcelona) with terminals 1 and 2 started in September (link to article). I believe project completion is schedulled for 2020, does anyone have any information whether this will replace current bus shuttle between terminals 1 and 2? Didn't happen when Metro L9 connected T1 and T2, so I don't have high hopes for that. (Link to project documentation).

Thanks for that second link, I was also quite confused at how it was planned to build the rail link. As per the first picture, there seems to be a planning provision for routing the high-speed rail line to BCN as well. I hope it is undertaken next, as it would really boost BCN and effectively add a "4th runway".

It's a shame and a missed opportunity that up to now, Spain has been designing HSR and airports as incompatible competitors, rather than complementing each other. I believe GRO will actually be the 1st Spanish airport to have a national rail connection?

Would high speed train affect the growth rate?

Not sure what you mean by that, but it should definitely boost GRO by putting it 40min away from Barcelona center - but only if the price is right.
IMO there should not only be a high speed nonstop train to GRO, but also a normal regional train, to serve the suburbs north of BCN for which GRO would be well placed.

It is also true that I think in the future BCN will need another runway but that won't be that easy, the space left is not much and it will be quite costly, maybe a paralel 20/02.

Hence why a HSR link would be so important IMO - it would act as another runway, as happens for instance in FRA.

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