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mercure1
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10 Air France unions plans strike

Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:58 pm

Ten Air France unions (3 pilots SNPL, SPAF, Alter, 2 hostesses and stewards - SNPNC and Unsa-PNC, as well as 5 ground personnel CGT, FO, SUD, CFTC and SNGAF). have called for strike action commencing February 22nd.

Unions are refusing company offer of 1% wage increases in 2018, and instead, seek average adjustment of 6% or EUR200 minimum for the year to primarily make up for lost wages due inflation over last 5-years when pay was largely frozen. (As reference inflation in France in 2017 was 2.59% and forecast over 3% in 2018 with strengthening economy.)

http://www.air-journal.fr/2018-02-10-ai ... 94397.html
 
Egerton
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Re: 10 Air France unions plans strike

Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:07 pm

As expected, what took these folk so long? M. Macron will be tested. Let us hope he wins.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: 10 Air France unions plans strike

Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:17 pm

And so they'll bring their own airline to bankrupcy. Air France staff is already heavily overpaid compared to other airlines and now they want even more money? I'd say everyone that goes on strike gets sacked and is being replaced by a cheaper new recruit, plenty of people that are willing to work for the wages the spoiled Air France crew thinks is too little.
 
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Aesma
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Re: 10 Air France unions plans strike

Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:14 pm

Official inflation numbers for 2017 are something like 1% not more than 2%.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
flyguy84
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Re: 10 Air France unions plans strike

Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:53 pm

Let’s see if they cancel this strike after reaching an agreement like they did last month.... it’s in their best interest.
 
itismarkc
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Re: 10 Air France unions plans strike

Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:00 pm

I just don't understand the attitude many posters have here regarding employees collectively bargaining to better their situation.
What would you rather?? Peoples wages staying the same forever?? Everyone living with ever increasing cost of living while their wages stay the same??
Honestly, a lot of people forget what the union movement has achieved for workers over the decades. Sure, it has its problems but you have to admit that big business isn't a glowing example of how things should be done either.

Just because other carriers pay their staff less does not mean Air France should. I do not want to live in a society which is in a constant race to the bottom.
 
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DWC
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Re: 10 Air France unions plans strike

Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:11 pm

itismarkc wrote:
I just don't understand the attitude many posters have here regarding employees collectively bargaining to better their situation.
What would you rather?? Peoples wages staying the same forever?? Everyone living with ever increasing cost of living while their wages stay the same??
Honestly, a lot of people forget what the union movement has achieved for workers over the decades. Sure, it has its problems but you have to admit that big business isn't a glowing example of how things should be done either.
Just because other carriers pay their staff less does not mean Air France should. I do not want to live in a society which is in a constant race to the bottom.

Many here see people like cockroaches swarming around to suck up their company dry. And yet hush about executives pocketting in 4 to 8 zero pay checks while asking the workforce to fasten their belt, sometimes even plundering the airline they raided ( TWA, PA, etc. ).
Henry Ford had it right : pay your workers enough so they be good consumers & not welfare seekers.
Plus AF's hubs are in Paris, and be it said, Paris is expensive, like most EU capitals.
Last edited by DWC on Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
jfk777
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Re: 10 Air France unions plans strike

Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:15 pm

How can Air France have 10 unions to deal, why not one union for each job occupation ? Just for the sake of simplicity merging all these groups would be a good start.
 
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DWC
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Re: 10 Air France unions plans strike

Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:19 pm

jfk777 wrote:
How can Air France have 10 unions to deal, why not one union for each job occupation ? Just for the sake of simplicity merging all these groups would be a good start.

You don't seem to know how unions work : for starters they do not belong to the airline but often to nationwide structures with sectorial federations. In France, unions are independent entities & workers are free to unite where they see fit, even launch their own union if need be.
That said, it is not in their interest to be so split up, but that is democracy. A little like all these protestant churches mushrooming everywhere ;)
 
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janders
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Re: 10 Air France unions plans strike

Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:46 pm

While I am no major union sympathizer, I would never begrudge anyone exercising their rights. Employees have basic right to protest as a tool against their employers.
"We make war that we may live in peace." -- Aristotle
 
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mercure1
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Re: 10 Air France unions plans strike

Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:52 pm

jfk777 wrote:
How can Air France have 10 unions to deal, why not one union for each job occupation ? Just for the sake of simplicity merging all these groups would be a good start.


AF actually has many more unions that just 10. As explained by others, different job categories are often represented by various national syndicates, while some opt form their own associations. Its also not unusual at all for same category of employees to be represented by multiple associations.

Also in fact having so many unions likely helps AF as often effects of industrial actions are weakened as not all associations agree and participate collectively.
In other words, AF is often able to divide the associations and their members by reaching an agreement with some that weaken the efforts of others.
 
kalvado
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Re: 10 Air France unions plans strike

Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:07 am

janders wrote:
While I am no major union sympathizer, I would never begrudge anyone exercising their rights. Employees have basic right to protest as a tool against their employers.


Problem is that there are more than two sides here. There are also passengers, who end up being between a hammer and a hard place.
And any random passenger can easily have a lot to loose. And, at the same time, passengers are the ones who have little, if any, leverage once ticket is sold.
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: 10 Air France unions plans strike

Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:09 am

kalvado wrote:
janders wrote:
While I am no major union sympathizer, I would never begrudge anyone exercising their rights. Employees have basic right to protest as a tool against their employers.


Problem is that there are more than two sides here. There are also passengers, who end up being between a hammer and a hard place.
And any random passenger can easily have a lot to loose. And, at the same time, passengers are the ones who have little, if any, leverage once ticket is sold.


That's why I tell friends and relatives not to book flights on Air France. That way they aren't at risk if Air France unions decide to strike when they are supposed to be traveling.
 
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kitplane01
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Re: 10 Air France unions plans strike

Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:43 am

PatrickZ80 wrote:
And so they'll bring their own airline to bankrupcy. Air France staff is already heavily overpaid compared to other airlines and now they want even more money? I'd say everyone that goes on strike gets sacked and is being replaced by a cheaper new recruit, plenty of people that are willing to work for the wages the spoiled Air France crew thinks is too little.



Is this true? Are Air France staff payed more than Lufthansa or BA?
 
dcajet
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Re: 10 Air France unions plans strike

Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:46 am

kitplane01 wrote:
PatrickZ80 wrote:
And so they'll bring their own airline to bankrupcy. Air France staff is already heavily overpaid compared to other airlines and now they want even more money? I'd say everyone that goes on strike gets sacked and is being replaced by a cheaper new recruit, plenty of people that are willing to work for the wages the spoiled Air France crew thinks is too little.


Is this true? Are Air France staff payed more than Lufthansa or BA?


BA pays peanuts to some of its staff (e.g. Mixed Fleet Cabin Crews).
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
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DWC
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Re: 10 Air France unions plans strike

Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:47 am

flyingclrs727 wrote:
kalvado wrote:
janders wrote:
While I am no major union sympathizer, I would never begrudge anyone exercising their rights. Employees have basic right to protest as a tool against their employers.

Problem is that there are more than two sides here. There are also passengers, who end up being between a hammer and a hard place.
And any random passenger can easily have a lot to loose. And, at the same time, passengers are the ones who have little, if any, leverage once ticket is sold.

That's why I tell friends and relatives not to book flights on Air France. That way they aren't at risk if Air France unions decide to strike when they are supposed to be traveling

Silly, you may end sending them to an airline with an inferior product, plus airport & ground staff can strike anywhere else they go.
France & Europe are very strict & generous on consumer rights, AF are no MOL's Ryanair with no consideration for pax.
And just so you know, during one strike, not even AF's fault ( CDG's TC went on strike ), with all nearby hotels full, AF graciously placed us free of charge at Disneyland resorts : I thanked the TC guys for that opportunity to sleep in excellent american King Kong beds each the size of a swimming pool & with excellent on-demand ground service. :bigthumbsup: We flew out the next evening.
Last edited by DWC on Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: 10 Air France unions plans strike

Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:52 am

DWC wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Problem is that there are more than two sides here. There are also passengers, who end up being between a hammer and a hard place.
And any random passenger can easily have a lot to loose. And, at the same time, passengers are the ones who have little, if any, leverage once ticket is sold.

That's why I tell friends and relatives not to book flights on Air France. That way they aren't at risk if Air France unions decide to strike when they are supposed to be traveling

Silly, you may end sending them to an airline with an inferior product, plus airport & ground staff can strike anywhere else they go.
France & Europe are very strict & generous on consumer rights, AF are no MOL's Ryanair with no consideration for pax.
And just so you know, during one strike, not even AF's fault ( CDG's TC went on strike ), with all nearby hotels full, AF graciously placed us free of charge at Disneyland resorts : I thanked the TC guys for that opportunity to sleep in excellent american King Kong beds each the size of a pool & with excellent on-demand ground service. :bigthumbsup:


Well if one must stay in Sky Team, KLM is a good option. Ryanair doesn't do connections. I'm not going to send friends and family on Ryanair when they need to make connections to fly between Europe and the US.
 
DDR
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Re: 10 Air France unions plans strike

Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:54 am

PatrickZ80 wrote:
And so they'll bring their own airline to bankrupcy. Air France staff is already heavily overpaid compared to other airlines and now they want even more money? I'd say everyone that goes on strike gets sacked and is being replaced by a cheaper new recruit, plenty of people that are willing to work for the wages the spoiled Air France crew thinks is too little.


Unions literally exist so companies can't do what you just described.
 
bigjku
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Re: 10 Air France unions plans strike

Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:18 am

I am no expert but it seems like Air France is basically a state sanctioned monopoly. It has a huge majority of the passengers carried at least on what I could casually find. Certainly among French airlines on the year I pulled up it had 8-10 times the volume of anyone else.

My guess is they also get preferential access to slots at the airports that matter in France making it very hard for anyone to really compete with them even if they wanted to.

To me that kind of clouds the issue. It’s not a strike entirely against a private company. I am guessing in a lot of respects the passengers have no other choices.
 
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DWC
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Re: 10 Air France unions plans strike

Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:19 am

flyingclrs727 wrote:
Well if one must stay in Sky Team, KLM is a good option. Ryanair doesn't do connections. I'm not going to send friends and family on Ryanair when they need to make connections to fly between Europe and the US.

And miss a visit to Paris ? A'dam is nice, but nowhere as rich.
The EU is not the US, meaning that changing airlines in the EU has opportunity costs.
I am a top tier FF but never priviledge that over the opportunity of a layover or multiple routing to visit, time is not a big deal for me & others.
- 1W : I avoid LHR like hell, in part because of the backtracking, in part because of the UK & LHR steep taxes that really make it uncompetitive. MAD is a modern airport but connecting fast between both Terminals can be daunting, and frankly, IB service was bad bad bad.
- *A : FRA is even worse, particularly when connecting between Schengen & non-Schengen : LH often schedule 1h connections but I've seen many people, elderly in particular, miss their flight because of queues at passports & security : one has to run. CPH is ok if you have the right connections but SAS is not that competitive. Leaves ZRH & LX which are ok, but int'l network is smaller.
So all in all, in western Europe, AF & CDG are my favourite places to connect ( for Eastern Europe, RIX works fine for me & I really like Riga, awsome town like all the Baltics ). I thus suggest you moderate your allergy to AF & commend it to your friends & relatives.
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: 10 Air France unions plans strike

Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:15 am

I'm for unions, especially ones here in the US, but these Air France unions are horrid. I think it'd be in everyone's best interests if either

A. Dissolve the current unions, start fresh with new unions and ONE per group, one for pilots, one for FA's, one for ground crew etc.

B. Shutdown the company and put them all on the unemployment line. This isn't a union like ALPA or TWU, this is a hostage situation.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
 
flydude380
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Re: 10 Air France unions plans strike

Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:06 am

In this industry, having a union is vital. I support my fellow brothers and sisters all the way!
 
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Aesma
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Re: 10 Air France unions plans strike

Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:13 am

bigjku wrote:
I am no expert but it seems like Air France is basically a state sanctioned monopoly. It has a huge majority of the passengers carried at least on what I could casually find. Certainly among French airlines on the year I pulled up it had 8-10 times the volume of anyone else.

My guess is they also get preferential access to slots at the airports that matter in France making it very hard for anyone to really compete with them even if they wanted to.

To me that kind of clouds the issue. It’s not a strike entirely against a private company. I am guessing in a lot of respects the passengers have no other choices.


The government has its hands in the airline yes, but not as much as some believe. And anyone is free to start another airline and compete, or just come to France from somewhere else (Norwegian for example). Slots are easy enough to get. Several French airlines have been started recently in fact.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Egerton
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Re: 10 Air France unions plans strike

Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:29 am

Some French trades unions are setting up to defy the recently elected President, Parliament and Government of their nation. In the UK we had similar issues when our over-mighty unions from the 1960's to the mid 1880's defied both the elected Labour and Conservative governments.
Our choice was being governed by trade unions pulling all the strings, or by crushing them and returning to Parliamentary Democracy.

The French unions have been on the same journey and this is now the time to crush them. This is M. Macron's opportunity. I wish him well.
 
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mercure1
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Re: 10 Air France unions plans strike

Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:11 pm

No surprise CEO says company cannot afford to match request of unions as it would cost €240mil annually.

However, company is willing to unblock currently frozen salary tiers which would result in average 2 percent wage increase and also move forward with profit sharing plan announced last year to distribute 20% of annual earnings to employees.

https://www.francetvinfo.fr/economie/tr ... 13996.html
https://www.ouest-france.fr/economie/tr ... es-5569743

A meeting is scheduled on Monday between unions and company
 
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Aesma
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Re: 10 Air France unions plans strike

Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:30 pm

Profit sharing is mandatory in France for all companies above 50 employees. So are they talking about a more generous plan ? The formula for the minimum is also defined by law, however companies can give more. I feel for a company like AFKL that has big ups and downs profit sharing is ideal to "give back" to employees when things are good. However there are complications, for example AF has just announced losses for last year. The loss was caused by an exceptional charge linked to KL's pensions. French employees not getting profit sharing because of that would be unhappy.

OK, so I've read what is said differently than you mercure1. AF is saying a new profit sharing plan has already been voted on (with unions), giving almost 20% of profit to employees, and this is what will cause them to earn 2% more. So no raising the salaries at all.

I work in a big French company and wouldn't like such a scheme to be honest, my company's profit have never been great since I'm there (always in the black though) and my profit sharing has not amounted to even one month's salary, and could be zero if the economy goes bad. On the other hand I've gotten raises every year above inflation, and just got 5%. I'm also a shareholder, thanks to a company savings plan, so if the company does well I'll get some back through that.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Jetty
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Re: 10 Air France unions plans strike

Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:51 pm

Aesma wrote:
However there are complications, for example AF has just announced losses for last year. The loss was caused by an exceptional charge linked to KL's pensions. French employees not getting profit sharing because of that would be unhappy.

Profit sharing would be based on AF's results, not the group results. Thus such a scenario isn't possible.

OK, so I've read what is said differently than you mercure1. AF is saying a new profit sharing plan has already been voted on (with unions), giving almost 20% of profit to employees, and this is what will cause them to earn 2% more. So no raising the salaries at all.

It's only 2% because AF performs so poor (not in least part due to their uncooperative staff). KL introduced a similar scheme and while their salaries weren't raised over the past 5 years either the profit sharing amounts to more than 10%.
 
Planeflyer
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Re: 10 Air France unions plans strike

Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:57 pm

It seems a tough situation. Employees are not eating enough and companies are not earning a consistent enough profit for the staff to see profit sharing as worthwhile.

Why is the business climate in such a state? What can be done to improve prospects?

I used to fly AF all the time prior to the 447 crash and always enjoyed the service. Heck the accent alone was a huge plus but what I’m trying to say is that the touch was always just right.
 
Planeflyer
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Re: 10 Air France unions plans strike

Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:19 pm

Sorry meant earning enough! too funny
 
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mercure1
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Re: 10 Air France unions plans strike

Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:26 pm

In 2015 AF staff agreed to freeze of pay scale wage table. One of the benefits the company agreed to was a mechanism of sharing profits across all staff at the company. This program was agreed in 2017 and was to be effective no later than 2020 (for 2019 reporting year). As I recall the basis for this is not net profit, but based on operating profit which AF did well in 2017.

So sounds like the company is willing to lift freeze on wage table increase and also implement profit sharing scheme at earlier stage.
 
geologyrocks
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Re: 10 Air France unions plans strike

Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:32 pm

If a company truly cannot afford it then they cannot afford it. If you go on strike then you need to understand the long term consequences even if you ultimately get something (one of the long term consequences being what many above have stated: they make alternative travel plans because of the frequency of strikes, or threat of).

Executive bonuses/pay is really more of a subject of anger and not something that is actually going to help. I think the majority of executives are overpaid. With that being said, even if they all worked for free and you distributed their bonuses amongst the rank and file, you’d end up with a lot less than the 1% that is currently being offered.
 
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kjeld0d
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Re: 10 Air France unions plans strike

Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:40 pm

Yeah! That'll teach them!
 
Planesmart
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Re: 10 Air France unions plans strike

Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:56 pm

If a company isn't profitable enough to trigger meaningful staff profit sharing, but is profitable enough for executives to earn bonuses, there is an equity issue, and senior management KRA's are set too low.

Profit sharing though should be targetted. Top performing staff should get more than under-performers (in my world, the latter should get zero, assuming they receive at least quarterly reviews, and assistance / coaching to raise performance).
 
kiowa
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Re: 10 Air France unions plans strike

Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:14 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
And so they'll bring their own airline to bankrupcy. Air France staff is already heavily overpaid compared to other airlines and now they want even more money? I'd say everyone that goes on strike gets sacked and is being replaced by a cheaper new recruit, plenty of people that are willing to work for the wages the spoiled Air France crew thinks is too little.


absolutely correct. the unions should be more like congressmen in the US. who wants a raise? vote on it without anybody to object and you get more money/benefits/expenses ect.
 
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iseeyyc
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Re: 10 Air France unions plans strike

Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:17 pm

DDR wrote:
PatrickZ80 wrote:
And so they'll bring their own airline to bankrupcy. Air France staff is already heavily overpaid compared to other airlines and now they want even more money? I'd say everyone that goes on strike gets sacked and is being replaced by a cheaper new recruit, plenty of people that are willing to work for the wages the spoiled Air France crew thinks is too little.


Unions literally exist so companies can't do what you just described.


Right, the customers just go elsewhere and the company goes bankrupt. The striking crew are "replaced" by the crew of a more efficient airline. One can't strike back a monopoly position, regulated skies, preferential treatment, ie. all the things that gave AF an advantage and allowed them to pay such high rates in the first place. A strike is not a time machine.

Planeflyer wrote:
It seems a tough situation. Employees are not eating enough and companies are not earning a consistent enough profit for the staff to see profit sharing as worthwhile.

Why is the business climate in such a state? What can be done to improve prospects?

I used to fly AF all the time prior to the 447 crash and always enjoyed the service. Heck the accent alone was a huge plus but what I’m trying to say is that the touch was always just right.


Exactly, its a tough situation. Its a tough business, there is no easy solution. Striking is punishing the few customers that remain.
 
flight152
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Re: 10 Air France unions plans strike

Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:17 pm

Wouldn’t be a new year without a French employee group striking.
 
Planeflyer
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Re: 10 Air France unions plans strike

Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:33 pm

Let me see if I understand this. AF effectively has a monopoly type position in France which is hurting their ability to compete in the larger market.

Is this am accurate description of the situation?

If so, is their a will within France to fix it?
 
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lightsaber
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Re: 10 Air France unions plans strike

Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:45 pm

Planeflyer wrote:
Let me see if I understand this. AF effectively has a monopoly type position in France which is hurting their ability to compete in the larger market.

Is this am accurate description of the situation?

If so, is their a will within France to fix it?

Yes, by being protected, the Airline has not brought it's costs down to the competition nor improved their service enough. I say the later as I know a group of Silver Setters who recently we're snubbed as English speakers in J on AF. It's one strike and your out with those paying $4k+ out of pocket. They whole group is paying $1k more each to fly another airline this summer for their educational cruise.

Seriously, protecting a market produces a anti customer mind set in management and line employees.

AF is also disadvantaged by not having terminals that meet modern connecting convince, but that could be rectified by a good train a la DFW. They are also disadvantaged by a split hub. The era of transferring across a city for a connection ended 20 years ago.

Lightsaber
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deebee278
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Re: 10 Air France unions plans strike

Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:08 pm

France? Strike? Yawn...
 
DDR
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Re: 10 Air France unions plans strike

Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:06 am

iseeyyc wrote:
DDR wrote:
PatrickZ80 wrote:
And so they'll bring their own airline to bankrupcy. Air France staff is already heavily overpaid compared to other airlines and now they want even more money? I'd say everyone that goes on strike gets sacked and is being replaced by a cheaper new recruit, plenty of people that are willing to work for the wages the spoiled Air France crew thinks is too little.


Unions literally exist so companies can't do what you just described.


Right, the customers just go elsewhere and the company goes bankrupt. The striking crew are "replaced" by the crew of a more efficient airline. One can't strike back a monopoly position, regulated skies, preferential treatment, ie. all the things that gave AF an advantage and allowed them to pay such high rates in the first place. A strike is not a time machine.

Planeflyer wrote:
It seems a tough situation. Employees are not eating enough and companies are not earning a consistent enough profit for the staff to see profit sharing as worthwhile.

Why is the business climate in such a state? What can be done to improve prospects?

I used to fly AF all the time prior to the 447 crash and always enjoyed the service. Heck the accent alone was a huge plus but what I’m trying to say is that the touch was always just right.


Exactly, its a tough situation. Its a tough business, there is no easy solution. Striking is punishing the few customers that remain.


The "few customers that remain" Oh good grief. Yes, no one flies AF anymore. LOL. Sorry you dislike unions so much but they exist to protect employees from bad management and to ensure employees receive a livable wage.
 
itismarkc
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Re: 10 Air France unions plans strike

Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:33 am

The "few customers that remain" Oh good grief. Yes, no one flies AF anymore. LOL. Sorry you dislike unions so much but they exist to protect employees from bad management and to ensure employees receive a livable wage

What he said
 
DarthLobster
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Re: 10 Air France unions plans strike

Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:34 am

DWC wrote:
You don't seem to know how unions work : for starters they do not belong to the airline but often to nationwide structures with sectorial federations. In France, unions are independent entities & workers are free to unite where they see fit, even launch their own union if need be.


That's not how unions work everywhere else, so it isn't fair to say that someone doesn't know how they work when they work very different in one particular place...
 
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ro1960
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Re: 10 Air France unions plans strike

Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:18 am

bigjku wrote:
I am no expert but it seems like Air France is basically a state sanctioned monopoly. It has a huge majority of the passengers carried at least on what I could casually find. Certainly among French airlines on the year I pulled up it had 8-10 times the volume of anyone else.

My guess is they also get preferential access to slots at the airports that matter in France making it very hard for anyone to really compete with them even if they wanted to.

To me that kind of clouds the issue. It’s not a strike entirely against a private company. I am guessing in a lot of respects the passengers have no other choices.


Although AF is the dominant carrier at CDG and ORY, it's #2 at NCE behind U2. FR and DY come next and some airports don't even have AF service. The French overseas routes are shared with BF, SS and TX. So choice does exist. The EU is an open market.
You may like my airport photos:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/aeroports
 
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ro1960
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Re: 10 Air France unions plans strike

Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:45 am

lightsaber wrote:
AF is also disadvantaged by not having terminals that meet modern connecting convince, but that could be rectified by a good train a la DFW. They are also disadvantaged by a split hub. The era of transferring across a city for a connection ended 20 years ago.


I'm not sure what you're referring to. CDG has an automated train connecting all 3 terminals and the TGV station that even has Eurostar trains to London. CDG and ORY serve different markets (a little like LHR and LGW). I think transfert between the two is marginal.
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ro1960
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Re: 10 Air France unions plans strike

Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:01 am

PatrickZ80 wrote:
And so they'll bring their own airline to bankrupcy. Air France staff is already heavily overpaid compared to other airlines and now they want even more money? I'd say everyone that goes on strike gets sacked and is being replaced by a cheaper new recruit, plenty of people that are willing to work for the wages the spoiled Air France crew thinks is too little.


This is a bit of a simplistic view of the matter and certainly largely due to your misinformation. You're basically saying unions are bad and bosses should be allowed to manage their business the way they want without consideration for their employees. That's what is happening at FR and look how things are turning out lately.

In France union call for a strike to force the employer into negotiation that they were not able to obtain just by asking. Employees cannot be fired for going on strike, it's a constitutional right French people are attached to like Americans are attached to their second amendment.

Granted the power of unions in fields like transport and energy have hindered France's competitiveness but it's slowly changing.

I don't know what field you work in, but just ask yourself what unions have done for your profession and maybe you'd have a different view of things.
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axiom
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Re: 10 Air France unions plans strike

Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:08 pm

DarthLobster wrote:
DWC wrote:
You don't seem to know how unions work : for starters they do not belong to the airline but often to nationwide structures with sectorial federations. In France, unions are independent entities & workers are free to unite where they see fit, even launch their own union if need be.


That's not how unions work everywhere else, so it isn't fair to say that someone doesn't know how they work when they work very different in one particular place...


Perhaps people should learn something about the thing (i.e. French unions) that have such strong opinions about, prior to expressing said opinions.
 
Egerton
Posts: 864
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Re: 10 Air France unions plans strike

Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:23 pm

ro1960 wrote:
PatrickZ80 wrote:


I don't know what field you work in, but just ask yourself what unions have done for your profession and maybe you'd have a different view of things.


As a retired Brit, my picture of a lifetime on unions is overwhelmingly negative, but this may not be widely relevant to other nations.

Unions exist to gain better terms of employment for their members, at the expense of everyone else, including at the expense of the local, regional and national good. Additionally, some unions have party political motivations, from the crazy Marxist left to the parliamentary left. Few are from the political right.

Generally, unions do not understand the benefits of using market forces (voting with your feet) to decide issues. They take the view that might is right, except where they lack the might to carry the day, when they sometimes use civil disobedience. They have a habit of using their party political influence to reinforce their might.

The unions’ basic comprehension of a market economy is usually in short supply, which bodes ill for their future. This also applies to many professional economists who claim an understanding of that dreary non-science. The respective failures of non-market economies of many sorts including communism, centralisation and straight thuggery should be well known. I appreciate that like democracy, the market economy is far from perfect but it is the best we humans have come up with over many centuries, because it is better than the alternatives.

It may be considered relevant that in the UK, we have introduced the national minimum wage laws on employers. There were some unemployables, whose value was so low that even good employers could not find a profitable use for them. The new minimum wage law is intended to lift these marginally employable into the labour market instead of further extending the ranks of the unemployably unemployed. Another aim is to get these folk into the habit of having a disciplined life style, with comradeship and thus wellbeing. This has been implemented by the political right.

In the UK, arrogant Brits like me think we may have established a reasonable balance in the labour market such that there is less if any need for unions, and consequently less pay inflation and more employment. Nairu is the Non-Accelerating Inflation Rate of Unemployment, and refers to a level of unemployment below which inflation rises. The UK previously accepted 5% unemployment is necessary for Nairu, but this has been falling, it is now at 4.3% and trending to fall further. So more folk are in work, paying sales taxes (in our case value added tax) and doing useful work, and so helping our economy. Instead of sitting at home costing our economy.

In general we may now have an advanced labour market to match our advanced service economy. Of course the UK experience travels only so far, and other nations have their own labour markets and histories. Their views of the need for and benefits to national wealth of unions may therefore be different to mine.

I hope this helps.
 
Gingersnap
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Re: 10 Air France unions plans strike

Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:04 pm

Herein lies the problem, and this has been the same at my own aerospace employer.

Over the last few years, the company has taken up the stance that wage increases are not viable because of high costs, lower than average revenue stream etc. Yet in the years where said company sees record profits and massively increased revenue streams, they still refuse to rage wages or offer a pittance. Often in the UK (where I reside), most companies tend to meet in the middle so it's not often you hear of much in the way of strike action (outside of the bi-annual rail strikes).
Indeed my employer offered a pittance 1% payrise last year, which was resoundingly rejected by the union affiliated members of the workforce. So next up was a larger 5% increase with a tacked on clause that the union was no longer permitted to negotiate pay. You can imagine that was also rejected wholeheartedly. In the end we met in the middle after the word "strike" was murmured as we ended up with a 3% deal.

This may seem like a pointless back and forth, but due to employer's reluctance to keep wages in line with the "cost of living", often a couple of percent results in an effective pay cut for many. And it does become difficult to justify the salary of the chief executives in the 7 figures and rising, if you refuse to pay the average worker even half of what they by all rights should be getting to keep up with the rising cost of living.

So yes it causes a headache to management and customers are inconvenienced, but without the unions there would be no protection against rogue management who wish to squeeze every last penny out of their workforce at the smallest cost possible.
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Aesma
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Re: 10 Air France unions plans strike

Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:58 pm

Egerton : before retiring, did you enjoy a 0-hour contract ?

More people are working, but more people are poor at the same time, is that a good outcome ? People dying because of cold weather and they can't afford to heat their home ?

You attack the left but at the same time want people to work for the good of the country, isn't that contradictory ? People work for their own benefit, not for the collective, especially in our globalized economies.
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Egerton
Posts: 864
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2015 9:50 am

Re: 10 Air France unions plans strike

Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:59 pm

Gingersnap wrote:
Herein lies the problem, and this has been the same at my own aerospace employer.

Over the last few years, the company has taken up the stance that wage increases are not viable because of high costs, lower than average revenue stream etc. Yet in the years where said company sees record profits and massively increased revenue streams, they still refuse to rage wages or offer a pittance. Often in the UK (where I reside), most companies tend to meet in the middle so it's not often you hear of much in the way of strike action (outside of the bi-annual rail strikes).
Indeed my employer offered a pittance 1% payrise last year, which was resoundingly rejected by the union affiliated members of the workforce. So next up was a larger 5% increase with a tacked on clause that the union was no longer permitted to negotiate pay. You can imagine that was also rejected wholeheartedly. In the end we met in the middle after the word "strike" was murmured as we ended up with a 3% deal.

This may seem like a pointless back and forth, but due to employer's reluctance to keep wages in line with the "cost of living", often a couple of percent results in an effective pay cut for many. And it does become difficult to justify the salary of the chief executives in the 7 figures and rising, if you refuse to pay the average worker even half of what they by all rights should be getting to keep up with the rising cost of living.

So yes it causes a headache to management and customers are inconvenienced, but without the unions there would be no protection against rogue management who wish to squeeze every last penny out of their workforce at the smallest cost possible.


Thanks. Employers are seeking to incur only the costs necessary to recruit, retain and motivate staff. In short, this is the 'market rate' for each individual. This is not a fixed percent applied to all.

In business, I made sure that each employee had his or her personal contract of employment (c 15-20 pages) mailed to the home address. Any changes were made in writing.

I sought to ensure that we worked out a list of employees ranked in order of the costs of the employment package i.e. including heath cover, holidays, pensions etc as well as the pay rate, overtime, bonus and average gross wage over the year. We then worked out the those who had potential, those who had reached their level, those who were on the downward slope and other such matters of subjective judgement. The optimum ranking of each individual on our list soon became apparent and the appropriate adjustments made to recruit, retain and motivate individuals.

We did not operate only an annual review. We tended to adjust things in a timely manner if the local internal or external labour market changed, which in did violently for instance in 2008, and to a lesser extent in other boom and bust cycles. It was my judgment that we knew what we were doing, although it was not a walk in the park, and used quite a lot of management time.

We were not unionised, our people never felt the need. I made sure that legislation which gave the right to belong or not belong to a union was respected. I never asked if individuals were or were not union members, I neither knew nor cared.

I venture to suggest that managements who operate on any union model of employment and pay cannot know what they are doing. Invariably they are not optimising the use of their most important resource, namely the people. They are therefore doomed.

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