AirbusMDCFAN
Topic Author
Posts: 497
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2016 10:51 am

Iran Takes Closer Look At Russian Passenger Jet As Airbus And Boeing Deals Face Ongoing Delays

Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:05 am

Link/Source: https://www.forbes.com/sites/dominicdud ... dfbe4e1508


"A Russian-built Sukhoi Superjet 100 landed at Tehran's Mehrabad International airport on Feb. 12 with a team of engineers on board, as part of a renewed attempt by the company to find customers in Iran for its passenger jet. It could prove to be a fruitful venture for the firm, given the difficulty Iranian airlines have had in securing new aircraft from Western manufacturers over the past two years."

"But while 11 ATR planes had been delivered by the end of 2017, the arrival of the larger jets from Airbus and Boeing is taking much longer, with just three Airbus deliveries to date and none from Boeing."

"In January, Airbus sales chief John Leahy told Reuters: “I think those deals will get fulfilled, maybe not on the original schedule. We have to arrange financing; they have to understand about making pre-delivery payments.”
"The slow progress in renewing Iran’s aging fleets of passenger jets is a direct result of the lingering U.S. sanctions on the country."

Where will Iranian airlines getting financing to buy the SSJ, and how much of the SSJ is built with Western components that are affected by sanctions.
 
User avatar
lollomz
Posts: 421
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2005 6:21 pm

Re: Iran Takes Closer Look At Russian Passenger Jet As Airbus And Boeing Deals Face Ongoing Delays

Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:48 pm

Fingers crossed for a New SSJ order
[url="http://www.diecastmodelaircraft.com/collection/Lollomz"]Image[/url]
 
Samrnpage
Posts: 479
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2016 12:02 pm

Re: Iran Takes Closer Look At Russian Passenger Jet As Airbus And Boeing Deals Face Ongoing Delays

Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:30 pm

Id love some new SSJ100s in the Sky.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 6554
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Iran Takes Closer Look At Russian Passenger Jet As Airbus And Boeing Deals Face Ongoing Delays

Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:35 pm

Why is there a delay? There are no sanctions as of yet to prevent delivering these a/c, are they?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 6554
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Iran Takes Closer Look At Russian Passenger Jet As Airbus And Boeing Deals Face Ongoing Delays

Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:49 pm

Samrnpage wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Why is there a delay? There are no sanctions as of yet to prevent delivering these a/c, are they?


I think Iran doesnt want to pay up front . Basically their argument is they could give Boeing $5Billion up front to pay for the planes, then get aload of sanctions for "reasons" and not get their money back. They want to pay per aircraft delivery. So they will pay X amount per plane delivered instead.


Ah ok, well then I would make a slightly different deal with Iran if I were Boeing or Airbus, just price it in, ask a premium because of this risk and airplanes, except for the interior, are in basis quite a generic right.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Samrnpage
Posts: 479
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2016 12:02 pm

Re: Iran Takes Closer Look At Russian Passenger Jet As Airbus And Boeing Deals Face Ongoing Delays

Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:50 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Why is there a delay? There are no sanctions as of yet to prevent delivering these a/c, are they?


I think Iran doesnt want to pay up front . Basically their argument is they could give Boeing $5Billion up front to pay for the planes, then get aload of sanctions for "reasons" and not get their money back. They want to pay per aircraft delivery. So they will pay X amount per plane delivered instead.
 
Antarius
Posts: 816
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Iran Takes Closer Look At Russian Passenger Jet As Airbus And Boeing Deals Face Ongoing Delays

Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:06 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Why is there a delay? There are no sanctions as of yet to prevent delivering these a/c, are they?


Financing. A lot of the banks in the US are wary of getting involved given the rhetoric from Washington about potential upcoming sanctions.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/dominicdud ... b6c3b44252
2018: AUA CLT IAH HOU DFW COS DEN CLL ORD PEK PVG PHX SFO SJC OAK PHL YYC STL DTW HNL OGG JFK LGA EWR GIG GRU IGU CWB SDU MDW BOS IAD DCA PBI FLL MIA
 
WIederling
Posts: 6557
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Iran Takes Closer Look At Russian Passenger Jet As Airbus And Boeing Deals Face Ongoing Delays

Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:33 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Ah ok, well then I would make a slightly different deal with Iran if I were Boeing or Airbus, just price it in, ask a premium because of this risk and airplanes, except for the interior, are in basis quite a generic right.


The risk is produced by the seller side. Why should Iran pay more?
Murphy is an optimist
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 6554
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Iran Takes Closer Look At Russian Passenger Jet As Airbus And Boeing Deals Face Ongoing Delays

Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:39 pm

WIederling wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Ah ok, well then I would make a slightly different deal with Iran if I were Boeing or Airbus, just price it in, ask a premium because of this risk and airplanes, except for the interior, are in basis quite a generic right.


The risk is produced by the seller side. Why should Iran pay more?


No, not by the seller, why is Boeing or Airbus adding risk?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
blueflyer
Posts: 3924
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:17 am

Re: Iran Takes Closer Look At Russian Passenger Jet As Airbus And Boeing Deals Face Ongoing Delays

Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:15 pm

WIederling wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Ah ok, well then I would make a slightly different deal with Iran if I were Boeing or Airbus, just price it in, ask a premium because of this risk and airplanes, except for the interior, are in basis quite a generic right.


The risk is produced by the seller side. Why should Iran pay more?

Dutchy is suggesting that to get around the current impasse, Iranian airlines make a lump-sum payment on delivery.

Eventually, whoever wants the sale the most will bear the risk. Time will tell...
MAGag
 
WIederling
Posts: 6557
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Iran Takes Closer Look At Russian Passenger Jet As Airbus And Boeing Deals Face Ongoing Delays

Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:53 pm

blueflyer wrote:
Dutchy is suggesting that to get around the current impasse, Iranian airlines make a lump-sum payment on delivery.


ROFL.
Nigerian Scam. Only for more money.
One thing is certain: The US has a knack for getting funny ideas ...
Murphy is an optimist
 
alfa164
Posts: 2169
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Iran Takes Closer Look At Russian Passenger Jet As Airbus And Boeing Deals Face Ongoing Delays

Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:02 pm

Samrnpage wrote:
Id love some new SSJ100s in the Sky.


I'd love it, too - if the all actually stayed flying. Right now 4 of Interjet's 22 SSJ100's are on the ground, being taken apart for parts to keep the other planes flying.

These aircraft may - one day - turn out to be great planes. For now, reliability - and the availability of spare parts - seems to be a real bugaboo.
 
WIederling
Posts: 6557
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Iran Takes Closer Look At Russian Passenger Jet As Airbus And Boeing Deals Face Ongoing Delays

Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:22 pm

alfa164 wrote:
Samrnpage wrote:
Id love some new SSJ100s in the Sky.


I'd love it, too - if the all actually stayed flying. Right now 4 of Interjet's 22 SSJ100's are on the ground, being taken apart for parts to keep the other planes flying.

These aircraft may - one day - turn out to be great planes. For now, reliability - and the availability of spare parts - seems to be a real bugaboo.


is it reliability _and_ availability of spare part
or just the spare parts issue?
Murphy is an optimist
 
alfa164
Posts: 2169
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Iran Takes Closer Look At Russian Passenger Jet As Airbus And Boeing Deals Face Ongoing Delays

Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:24 pm

WIederling wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
Samrnpage wrote:
Id love some new SSJ100s in the Sky.

I'd love it, too - if the all actually stayed flying. Right now 4 of Interjet's 22 SSJ100's are on the ground, being taken apart for parts to keep the other planes flying.
These aircraft may - one day - turn out to be great planes. For now, reliability - and the availability of spare parts - seems to be a real bugaboo.

is it reliability _and_ availability of spare part
or just the spare parts issue?


Well... if it were really reliable, it shouldn't need to wait on spare parts.

And if the spare parts weren't so unavailable... it would be more reliable...

So there is something of a "Catch 22" there...
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 8526
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Iran Takes Closer Look At Russian Passenger Jet As Airbus And Boeing Deals Face Ongoing Delays

Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:25 pm

WIederling wrote:
blueflyer wrote:
Dutchy is suggesting that to get around the current impasse, Iranian airlines make a lump-sum payment on delivery.


ROFL.
Nigerian Scam. Only for more money.
One thing is certain: The US has a knack for getting funny ideas ...

While unconventional in the aviation industry due to the high costs of airplanes, it is odd to call full payment upon recipient of goods or services a “scam.” Do you pay for everything in prearranged installment plans?

Boeing certainly won’t give you an aircraft until they have been payed in full for it.
Last edited by Polot on Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
WIederling
Posts: 6557
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Iran Takes Closer Look At Russian Passenger Jet As Airbus And Boeing Deals Face Ongoing Delays

Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:31 pm

alfa164 wrote:
Well... if it were really reliable, it shouldn't need to wait on spare parts.
And if the spare parts weren't so unavailable... it would be more reliable...
So there is something of a "Catch 22" there...

??
That does not compute.

you loose parts all the time.
do they have defects more often than other planes?
Let me repeat:

Is it a reliability issue
or an
availability issue?
Murphy is an optimist
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 8526
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Iran Takes Closer Look At Russian Passenger Jet As Airbus And Boeing Deals Face Ongoing Delays

Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:38 pm

WIederling wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
Well... if it were really reliable, it shouldn't need to wait on spare parts.
And if the spare parts weren't so unavailable... it would be more reliable...
So there is something of a "Catch 22" there...

??
That does not compute.

you loose parts all the time.
do they have defects more often than other planes?
Let me repeat:

Is it a reliability issue
or an
availability issue?

1) It could be both.
2) Spare part unavailability may make preventive/routine maintenance more difficult, which in turn makes the plane more unreliable, which then gets harder to recetify due to the aforementioned spare part availability issue.
 
andrej
Posts: 1181
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2001 8:31 am

Re: Iran Takes Closer Look At Russian Passenger Jet As Airbus And Boeing Deals Face Ongoing Delays

Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:28 pm

There are ways how to "reduce" a transaction risk. For example place the amount into an Escrow account. That way Boeing or Airbus "see" their payment, which will be released in a delivery on an airplane.

Banks can issue a lomvard loan in order to provide short term financing to Boeing or Airbus that will be repaid once an airplane is delivered.

These are simple forms how to reduce or mitige counterparty risks. But it seems that politics are at play as well.

I certainly wish SSJ good luck as well as MC-21.

Cheers,
Andrej
 
Blerg
Posts: 755
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Iran Takes Closer Look At Russian Passenger Jet As Airbus And Boeing Deals Face Ongoing Delays

Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:45 pm

The SSJ would make perfect sense. Russia has re-established banking ties with Iran so money transfers could happen without any risk.

On top of that, IR could serve many routes where the A320/321 is too much of an aircraft not to mention that they could efficiently launch international flights from Iran's other cities such as Tabriz, Mashhad, Esfahan ... I could see Persian Gulf destinations receiving many new regional flights with the SSJ.
 
ShinyAndChrome
Posts: 144
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:53 am

Re: Iran Takes Closer Look At Russian Passenger Jet As Airbus And Boeing Deals Face Ongoing Delays

Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:01 pm

At the very least, they'd have an easier time with maintenance and part sourcing than Interjet, I'd suspect. An Iranian order would do well to further establish the SSJ in markets outside the CIS, especially after Interjet's high profile issues.
 
User avatar
persiangulf93
Posts: 246
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:42 am

Re: Iran Takes Closer Look At Russian Passenger Jet As Airbus And Boeing Deals Face Ongoing Delays

Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:44 am

Blerg wrote:
The SSJ would make perfect sense. Russia has re-established banking ties with Iran so money transfers could happen without any risk.

On top of that, IR could serve many routes where the A320/321 is too much of an aircraft not to mention that they could efficiently launch international flights from Iran's other cities such as Tabriz, Mashhad, Esfahan ... I could see Persian Gulf destinations receiving many new regional flights with the SSJ.


That's already been covered by ATR's
 
parapente
Posts: 2656
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:42 pm

Re: Iran Takes Closer Look At Russian Passenger Jet As Airbus And Boeing Deals Face Ongoing Delays

Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:30 am

Help me out here.What is (what one might say) the payment/purchase conditions for a normal sale.

Say British Airways agrees to buy Boeing 787-9's.(not leased,bought).

I always thought that there was a 'transaction day' where each aircraft is inspected and flown.If given the OK then (all) the money for that aircraft is transferred (BA to Boeing)with the relevant ownership documents signed.Then the aircraft is flown - by British Airways pilots from Seattle to (in this case) London.
Is that wrong?
 
Blerg
Posts: 755
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Iran Takes Closer Look At Russian Passenger Jet As Airbus And Boeing Deals Face Ongoing Delays

Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:43 pm

persiangulf93 wrote:
Blerg wrote:
The SSJ would make perfect sense. Russia has re-established banking ties with Iran so money transfers could happen without any risk.

On top of that, IR could serve many routes where the A320/321 is too much of an aircraft not to mention that they could efficiently launch international flights from Iran's other cities such as Tabriz, Mashhad, Esfahan ... I could see Persian Gulf destinations receiving many new regional flights with the SSJ.


That's already been covered by ATR's


I was referring to routes such as Mashhad-Dubai or Tabriz-Istanbul. These are hardly adequate for the Atr.
 
Nicoeddf
Posts: 815
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:13 am

Re: Iran Takes Closer Look At Russian Passenger Jet As Airbus And Boeing Deals Face Ongoing Delays

Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:55 pm

parapente wrote:
Help me out here.What is (what one might say) the payment/purchase conditions for a normal sale.

Say British Airways agrees to buy Boeing 787-9's.(not leased,bought).

I always thought that there was a 'transaction day' where each aircraft is inspected and flown.If given the OK then (all) the money for that aircraft is transferred (BA to Boeing)with the relevant ownership documents signed.Then the aircraft is flown - by British Airways pilots from Seattle to (in this case) London.
Is that wrong?


In general you are right, that is how it works. Your timeline is a bit off, though. The procedure at Boeing is, that you do the customer acceptance ground tests/checks and, after Boeing test flights, you do 1 or more customer acceptance flights. If both Ground and Flight acceptance is agreed, at transaction day money and transfer of title happen simultaneously, with representatives from both sides confirming money transfer.

Depending on the airline procedure and pickiness, the process prior transaction day might take days to two+ weeks.

From that point on, the A/C is Airline property. Airline flight crew will ferry the A/C home.
Enslave yourself to the divine disguised as salvation
that your bought with your sacrifice
Deception justified for your holy design
High on our platform spewing out your crimes
from the altar of god
 
User avatar
persiangulf93
Posts: 246
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:42 am

Re: Iran Takes Closer Look At Russian Passenger Jet As Airbus And Boeing Deals Face Ongoing Delays

Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:25 pm

Blerg wrote:
persiangulf93 wrote:
Blerg wrote:
The SSJ would make perfect sense. Russia has re-established banking ties with Iran so money transfers could happen without any risk.

On top of that, IR could serve many routes where the A320/321 is too much of an aircraft not to mention that they could efficiently launch international flights from Iran's other cities such as Tabriz, Mashhad, Esfahan ... I could see Persian Gulf destinations receiving many new regional flights with the SSJ.


That's already been covered by ATR's


I was referring to routes such as Mashhad-Dubai or Tabriz-Istanbul. These are hardly adequate for the Atr.


These routes have high demand, SSJ100's are too small.
 
Blerg
Posts: 755
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Iran Takes Closer Look At Russian Passenger Jet As Airbus And Boeing Deals Face Ongoing Delays

Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:39 pm

persiangulf93 wrote:
Blerg wrote:
persiangulf93 wrote:

That's already been covered by ATR's


I was referring to routes such as Mashhad-Dubai or Tabriz-Istanbul. These are hardly adequate for the Atr.


These routes have high demand, SSJ100's are too small.


Jesus Christ. Could you go back to my initial post where i said that they could launch international flights from secondary Iranian cities such as Mashhad, Tabriz...where the A320 series aircraft are too big. IKA-LCA is a route that could see the SSJ given that outside the three summer months there aren't enough passengers to fill anything larger than a regional jet.
 
User avatar
persiangulf93
Posts: 246
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:42 am

Re: Iran Takes Closer Look At Russian Passenger Jet As Airbus And Boeing Deals Face Ongoing Delays

Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:58 pm

Blerg wrote:
persiangulf93 wrote:
Blerg wrote:

I was referring to routes such as Mashhad-Dubai or Tabriz-Istanbul. These are hardly adequate for the Atr.


These routes have high demand, SSJ100's are too small.


Jesus Christ. Could you go back to my initial post where i said that they could launch international flights from secondary Iranian cities such as Mashhad, Tabriz...where the A320 series aircraft are too big. IKA-LCA is a route that could see the SSJ given that outside the three summer months there aren't enough passengers to fill anything larger than a regional jet.


As I said, Tabriz-Istanbul and Mash'had - Dubai are highly profitable routes with lots of demand, A320's are def. not too big, I would even say that they are too small.

For some routes the SSJ could work, but there are far better options than Russian jets.
 
User avatar
XAM2175
Posts: 1058
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:25 pm

Re: Iran Takes Closer Look At Russian Passenger Jet As Airbus And Boeing Deals Face Ongoing Delays

Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:59 pm

Nicoeddf wrote:
parapente wrote:
Help me out here.What is (what one might say) the payment/purchase conditions for a normal sale.

Say British Airways agrees to buy Boeing 787-9's.(not leased,bought


In general you are right, that is how it works. Your timeline is a bit off, though.


Generally also there will be deposits and progress payments - the purchaser will put down a certain amount of money when they take the option, then a bit more when they firm it as an actual order, and then perhaps also more at certain points through construction and testing.

Boeing will fear in a potential tightening of sanctions that they won't get paid fully (and white-tails aren't fun to carry around - look at the Transaero 748s), while Iranian customers will fear their deposits effectively vanishing with only paperwork to show for it.
 
Blerg
Posts: 755
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Iran Takes Closer Look At Russian Passenger Jet As Airbus And Boeing Deals Face Ongoing Delays

Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:11 pm

persiangulf93 wrote:
Blerg wrote:
persiangulf93 wrote:

These routes have high demand, SSJ100's are too small.


Jesus Christ. Could you go back to my initial post where i said that they could launch international flights from secondary Iranian cities such as Mashhad, Tabriz...where the A320 series aircraft are too big. IKA-LCA is a route that could see the SSJ given that outside the three summer months there aren't enough passengers to fill anything larger than a regional jet.


As I said, Tabriz-Istanbul and Mash'had - Dubai are highly profitable routes with lots of demand, A320's are def. not too big, I would even say that they are too small.

For some routes the SSJ could work, but there are far better options than Russian jets.


You mean like the Atr? ;)
The SSJ is a fine aircraft and there are very little risks that come with it. Until the situation with Iran stabilizes it will be the country's best bet.
 
User avatar
persiangulf93
Posts: 246
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:42 am

Re: Iran Takes Closer Look At Russian Passenger Jet As Airbus And Boeing Deals Face Ongoing Delays

Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:32 pm

Blerg wrote:
persiangulf93 wrote:
Blerg wrote:

Jesus Christ. Could you go back to my initial post where i said that they could launch international flights from secondary Iranian cities such as Mashhad, Tabriz...where the A320 series aircraft are too big. IKA-LCA is a route that could see the SSJ given that outside the three summer months there aren't enough passengers to fill anything larger than a regional jet.


As I said, Tabriz-Istanbul and Mash'had - Dubai are highly profitable routes with lots of demand, A320's are def. not too big, I would even say that they are too small.

For some routes the SSJ could work, but there are far better options than Russian jets.


You mean like the Atr? ;)
The SSJ is a fine aircraft and there are very little risks that come with it. Until the situation with Iran stabilizes it will be the country's best bet.


Embraer? Bombardier? Iran has nothing to fear, legally Iran is not prohibited to buy from these companies and OFAC is obliged according to the JCPOA to provide licenses. If it doesn't it would be a direct breach and not be welcomed by the International Community.
 
Blerg
Posts: 755
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Iran Takes Closer Look At Russian Passenger Jet As Airbus And Boeing Deals Face Ongoing Delays

Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:15 pm

persiangulf93 wrote:
Blerg wrote:
persiangulf93 wrote:

As I said, Tabriz-Istanbul and Mash'had - Dubai are highly profitable routes with lots of demand, A320's are def. not too big, I would even say that they are too small.

For some routes the SSJ could work, but there are far better options than Russian jets.


You mean like the Atr? ;)
The SSJ is a fine aircraft and there are very little risks that come with it. Until the situation with Iran stabilizes it will be the country's best bet.


Embraer? Bombardier? Iran has nothing to fear, legally Iran is not prohibited to buy from these companies and OFAC is obliged according to the JCPOA to provide licenses. If it doesn't it would be a direct breach and not be welcomed by the International Community.


It's not legality that's an issue but the unpredictability of the US government.
 
mipair
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:47 pm

Re: Iran Takes Closer Look At Russian Passenger Jet As Airbus And Boeing Deals Face Ongoing Delays

Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:17 pm

alfa164 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
I'd love it, too - if the all actually stayed flying. Right now 4 of Interjet's 22 SSJ100's are on the ground, being taken apart for parts to keep the other planes flying.
These aircraft may - one day - turn out to be great planes. For now, reliability - and the availability of spare parts - seems to be a real bugaboo.

is it reliability _and_ availability of spare part
or just the spare parts issue?


Well... if it were really reliable, it shouldn't need to wait on spare parts.

And if the spare parts weren't so unavailable... it would be more reliable...

So there is something of a "Catch 22" there...


This story turned out to be false . All those planes were just in for maintenance .
 
parapente
Posts: 2656
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:42 pm

Re: Iran Takes Closer Look At Russian Passenger Jet As Airbus And Boeing Deals Face Ongoing Delays

Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:54 pm

Thanks for both the answers on how an aircraft is bought and paid for.Shame they are totally opposite answers.
Disclosure.
There was a prog on BBC a while back on exactly this (used Boeing as an example).As I recall it it was exactly the (simple) first model.
Of course there will be financial penalties built in on both sides of an order.But that is unequivocally money changing hands or scaling up of deposits and pre-payments or anything of the sort.
Hence the question.Iran (a bloody big country/government soaking in oil) makes an order.That order is accepted (Airbus/Boeing).They will be paid on a per aircraft acceptance.
Sooo where's the problem? Methinks it is on Capitol Hill and absolutly nowhere else.
 
raylee67
Posts: 533
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:06 pm

Re: Iran Takes Closer Look At Russian Passenger Jet As Airbus And Boeing Deals Face Ongoing Delays

Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:01 pm

It's not going to happen. Iran has waited for 40 years to buy a new Boeing or Airbus. They are not going to walk away. During the time of sanctions, Iran has looked at Tu-154, Tu-204, An-140 and An-148. it eventually did not get any of those into the mainstream airlines like IranAir or Mahan even during those desperate times. Why would it do it now? Its concern of losing the deposits because of sanctions coming back is legit. But it can probably work something out, especially with Airbus. May be putting the deposits into an escrow account in some third country like Singapore, etc.
319/20/21 332/33 342/43/45 388 707 717 732/36/3G/38/39 74R/42/43/44/4E/48 757 762/63 772/7L/73/7W 788 D10 M80 135/40/45 175/90 DH1/4 CRJ/R7 L10
AY LH OU SR BA FI
AA DL UA NW AC CP WS FL NK
CI NH SQ KA CX JL BR OZ TG KE CA CZ NZ JQ RS
 
Blerg
Posts: 755
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Iran Takes Closer Look At Russian Passenger Jet As Airbus And Boeing Deals Face Ongoing Delays

Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:01 pm

raylee67 wrote:
It's not going to happen. Iran has waited for 40 years to buy a new Boeing or Airbus. They are not going to walk away. During the time of sanctions, Iran has looked at Tu-154, Tu-204, An-140 and An-148. it eventually did not get any of those into the mainstream airlines like IranAir or Mahan even during those desperate times. Why would it do it now? Its concern of losing the deposits because of sanctions coming back is legit. But it can probably work something out, especially with Airbus. May be putting the deposits into an escrow account in some third country like Singapore, etc.


The only difference is that the SSJ is nowhere close to being inefficient as the airlines you mentioned above. SN Brussels seems to be happy with it so I don't see why IR would hate it.

On top of that, if IR is looking at the SSJ it probably means it needs a regional jet aircraft. The Atr might be a great aircraft but it caters for a special kind of market.
 
User avatar
persiangulf93
Posts: 246
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:42 am

Re: Iran Takes Closer Look At Russian Passenger Jet As Airbus And Boeing Deals Face Ongoing Delays

Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:17 am

Blerg wrote:
raylee67 wrote:
It's not going to happen. Iran has waited for 40 years to buy a new Boeing or Airbus. They are not going to walk away. During the time of sanctions, Iran has looked at Tu-154, Tu-204, An-140 and An-148. it eventually did not get any of those into the mainstream airlines like IranAir or Mahan even during those desperate times. Why would it do it now? Its concern of losing the deposits because of sanctions coming back is legit. But it can probably work something out, especially with Airbus. May be putting the deposits into an escrow account in some third country like Singapore, etc.


The only difference is that the SSJ is nowhere close to being inefficient as the airlines you mentioned above. SN Brussels seems to be happy with it so I don't see why IR would hate it.

On top of that, if IR is looking at the SSJ it probably means it needs a regional jet aircraft. The Atr might be a great aircraft but it caters for a special kind of market.


That's the issue here.

It is not Iran looking for the SSJ - It is SSJ trying to enter the Iranian market.
 
MaksFly
Posts: 238
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2016 5:50 am

Re: Iran Takes Closer Look At Russian Passenger Jet As Airbus And Boeing Deals Face Ongoing Delays

Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:34 am

Would be awesome to see them take a bunch of SSJ's and then have some brand spanking new MC21s.
 
User avatar
Jouhou
Posts: 1000
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 4:16 am

Re: Iran Takes Closer Look At Russian Passenger Jet As Airbus And Boeing Deals Face Ongoing Delays

Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:12 am

For the record, I wish Iran's commercial air industry the best, regardless of global politics.

Also sukhoi has a uphill battle convincing the iranian public their aircraft is safe and reliable.

I've been wanting to see more embraer and bombardier making iran deals. They have the ideal products for the regional market in iran!
 
User avatar
persiangulf93
Posts: 246
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:42 am

Re: Iran Takes Closer Look At Russian Passenger Jet As Airbus And Boeing Deals Face Ongoing Delays

Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:03 pm

Jouhou wrote:
For the record, I wish Iran's commercial air industry the best, regardless of global politics.

Also sukhoi has a uphill battle convincing the iranian public their aircraft is safe and reliable.

I've been wanting to see more embraer and bombardier making iran deals. They have the ideal products for the regional market in iran!


Thanks!

Embraer has already delivered some of the 15 second hand planes that ATA bought from them. They've also reached an agreement with Embraer.

https://financialtribune.com/articles/e ... braer-jets
https://financialtribune.com/articles/e ... braer-jets

Also Fly Qeshm has ordered 10 units (new ones) from Bomardier.

https://www.fliegerfaust.com/iran-news- ... 32851.html

http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-0 ... 900355.htm
 
NickWebb
Posts: 30
Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2006 8:10 pm

Re: Iran Takes Closer Look At Russian Passenger Jet As Airbus And Boeing Deals Face Ongoing Delays

Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:59 pm

Samrnpage wrote:
Id love some new SSJ100s in the Sky.

Building and delivering the SSjs doesn't seem to be the problem, maintaining them and getting spares is the problem...
[photoid][/photoid]/Users/nickwebb/Desktop/FullSizeRender.jpg
 
User avatar
lollomz
Posts: 421
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2005 6:21 pm

Re: Iran Takes Closer Look At Russian Passenger Jet As Airbus And Boeing Deals Face Ongoing Delays

Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:42 am

persiangulf93 wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
For the record, I wish Iran's commercial air industry the best, regardless of global politics.

Also sukhoi has a uphill battle convincing the iranian public their aircraft is safe and reliable.

I've been wanting to see more embraer and bombardier making iran deals. They have the ideal products for the regional market in iran!


Thanks!

Embraer has already delivered some of the 15 second hand planes that ATA bought from them. They've also reached an agreement with Embraer.

https://financialtribune.com/articles/e ... braer-jets
https://financialtribune.com/articles/e ... braer-jets

Also Fly Qeshm has ordered 10 units (new ones) from Bomardier.

https://www.fliegerfaust.com/iran-news- ... 32851.html

http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-0 ... 900355.htm


The first links don't work.....
[url="http://www.diecastmodelaircraft.com/collection/Lollomz"]Image[/url]
 
User avatar
OA940
Posts: 1395
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 6:18 am

Re: Iran Takes Closer Look At Russian Passenger Jet As Airbus And Boeing Deals Face Ongoing Delays

Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:40 am

Praying for a new SSJ order. Also low-key begging for a new MC-21 order but I really doubt it.
A350/CSeries = bae
 
FlyHappy
Posts: 698
Joined: Sat May 13, 2017 1:06 pm

Re: Iran Takes Closer Look At Russian Passenger Jet As Airbus And Boeing Deals Face Ongoing Delays

Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:44 pm

parapente wrote:
Thanks for both the answers on how an aircraft is bought and paid for.Shame they are totally opposite answers.
Disclosure.
There was a prog on BBC a while back on exactly this (used Boeing as an example).As I recall it it was exactly the (simple) first model.
Of course there will be financial penalties built in on both sides of an order.But that is unequivocally money changing hands or scaling up of deposits and pre-payments or anything of the sort.
Hence the question.Iran (a bloody big country/government soaking in oil) makes an order.That order is accepted (Airbus/Boeing).They will be paid on a per aircraft acceptance.
Sooo where's the problem? Methinks it is on Capitol Hill and absolutly nowhere else.


I cannot believe I am going to chime in on this.

Airbus and Boeing will normally only assign production slots for an order after receiving down payment of several % of purchase price (which means total purchase price).
Both typically require in progress payments as build(s) actually begin. In the past, there was also a separate selection and pricing/payment for the engines, perhaps this process has been simplified.

By the time the delivery/acceptance takes place, there will have been a significant portion of the price paid by the customer.
This is what is traditional, with the actual amounts highly variable per negotiation/desperation.
Clearly, a long time, high volume, repeat customer will get far more favourable terms than others.

I have no idea what terms were negotiated with the orders placed recently by Iranian carriers with A&B, perhaps given the size of orders and desire to "get the foot in the door", sales desire trumped good sense. Maybe A&B accepted these orders with no deposit at all, but clearly won't begin builds without a first progress payment.

There is great risk carried on both sides, as the businesses involved are unable to predict the actions and reactions of their respective governments. Initially, all the risk is carried by Airbus and Boeing, simply because they begin the builds of aircraft for which might not get delivered, due to politics. It would be irresponsible for them to not require a deposit. As builds actually progress (and accompanying payment), the risk starts to shift to the customer.

It does not matter that Iran is an oil rich country. It only matters to A&B that they can be paid without incurring risk of full production and no delivery (for whatever reason, does not matter) for each and every airframe. This means that they cannot use their own financing arm, and because banks and leasing companies based in US/EU and allied countries *could* be subject to a governmental order to cease ties, they are reticent. The same is true of Iranian banks, just in reverse.

It seems likely that these transactions will require the involvement of a deep pocketed 3rd party. Unfortunately for Iran, they are not on good terms with most of their wealthy neighbors (Qatar aside) . China is actually the best candidate, being politically immune, though I think they are far too sensible to want to wade into any possible mess, even if they have the appetite for financial risk; unless their is a strategic upside for them, that is. Though I'm pretty sure Iran could find very good financing terms on COMAC's for future delivery ;)

In the end, this isn't just about the unpredictability of the US government or President..... that is one aspect, but there is no ignoring the reality that Iran as a state continues to stir the pot in the middle east. The carriers and A&B are captive to these geopolitical realities.
 
User avatar
persiangulf93
Posts: 246
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:42 am

Re: Iran Takes Closer Look At Russian Passenger Jet As Airbus And Boeing Deals Face Ongoing Delays

Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:00 pm

I've tried to put IR livery on SSJ100

Image
 
Wayfarer515
Posts: 636
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:56 pm

Re: Iran Takes Closer Look At Russian Passenger Jet As Airbus And Boeing Deals Face Ongoing Delays

Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:45 am

alfa164 wrote:
Samrnpage wrote:
Id love some new SSJ100s in the Sky.


I'd love it, too - if the all actually stayed flying. Right now 4 of Interjet's 22 SSJ100's are on the ground, being taken apart for parts to keep the other planes flying.

These aircraft may - one day - turn out to be great planes. For now, reliability - and the availability of spare parts - seems to be a real bugaboo.


This story about Interjet's SSJs not flying is getting old. First, they dont fly because of the engine, and second the part of the engine not being produced/overhauled fast enough is made by Safran in France(hot section), in several occasions the Russian side of Powerjet has requested approval to do it by themselves, but Safran has denied this request. That is the reason they are kicking them out from the SSJ-75. And third, out of the 4 that were not flying the only one pending to do so got smashed against a gate @MMMX.

I dont see people blaming Airbus for the P&W fiasco, yet the same doesnt seem to apply for Sukhoi.
 
User avatar
gdg9
Posts: 861
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 9:42 am

Re: Iran Takes Closer Look At Russian Passenger Jet As Airbus And Boeing Deals Face Ongoing Delays

Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:30 am

Maybe they should ask Interjet how good the support is in regards to parts etc...
@dfwtower

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos