Here is an article from Bloomberg: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... yptr=yahoo

Personally, I would love for this to be the case. We shall see! I guess they actually need to design and build one first. May the 797 take flight and create 30 years more of threads on Airliners.net!!!!

Delta knows if they sour the relationship with Boeing much more, it will ruin any negotiation advantage they have with Airbus. Airbus has a captive audience with Delta on anything larger than a C-Series and will price accordingly.

Interesting.
Did they get tired of being called "traitors" for not buying more from Boeing??

Jokes aside this could definitely be the deciding factor for Boeing to go all in.

Sure, at the same price they paid for the C Series

I thought United was supposedly going to be the launch customer spearheading the development of the 797? Regardless, this is good news for Boeing!

I thought I read that UA and SW will be the launch customers; and more articles pointed to UA. Guess DL realized they missed the boat on the 787 and figure they better not be left all alone again.

Varsity1 wrote:

Delta knows if they sour the relationship with Boeing much more, it will ruin any negotiation advantage they have with Airbus. Airbus has a captive audience with Delta on anything larger than a C-Series and will price accordingly.

Or they are interested in this aircraft like all the other US3 have shown (including Delta) since the first talks of this aircraft.

Should probably buy some Dreamliners first, but this is an interesting development if true.

PixelPilot wrote:

Interesting.
Did they get tired of being called "traitors" for not buying more from Boeing??

Jokes aside this could definitely be the deciding factor for Boeing to go all in.

Jokes aside, DL has the Airbus initial response to the MOM market - A330 - and NMA and A321XX, Boeing needs a launch customer who will take the initial frames when produced not 10 to 15 years down the road after production starts.

ADrum23 wrote:

Should probably buy some Dreamliners first, but this is an interesting development if true.

DL canceled the order

It's always good to shop around, maybe Airbus will work hard to offer something else?

AS a huge user of 767 Delta and the world has been waiting too long for the 797. Boeing has been too worried about the "Emiratization" of the world's airplanes beling able to fly 8,000 miles. No one bothered to ask about the 5,000 mile market. The 787-9 and 777-9 fly up to 9,000 miles and that cost money in extra weight that has to be carried for all that extra fuel, one problem is many airlines use 777 & 787 on 5,000 flights. Seattle forgot about the 767, even though the A330 killed it. The 797 is a plane that should have been built circa 2005.

Not convinced there is a need for MOM. The need would arise from doing something meaningfully superior to A321LR as a narrowbody (unlikely) or instead doing something lighter/smaller than A330NEO for a price competitive with that fully depreciated, trouble free platform. It sounds extremely difficult, with the rewards small.

The 787 has too much range for a lot of the routes 767 s are doing. It makes sense that a mid-sized mid-ranged aircraft would be more appealing to DL than a mid-sized long range plane.

See also discussion that started three hours ago in:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1374685&start=950#p20170719

727200 wrote:

I thought I read that UA and SW will be the launch customers; and more articles pointed to UA. Guess DL realized they missed the boat on the 787 and figure they better not be left all alone again.

They missed the boat the same way AA is presumably going to "miss the boat" on the A350 when they are expected to cancel their A350 order. Certain aircraft meet certain demands, and DL realized that the 787 wasn't the right aircraft at the right time for them.

And SW isn't an airline code. It's funny how Delta chooses the right aircraft for their fleet and people lose their minds thinking they are abandoning Boeing. The 797 will fit well into Delta's fleet. Within the last few years it has made sense for Delta to order Airbus aircraft, but as with any large airline, a single brand will not meet their needs, so they are cyclicly going to gravitate towards Boeing aircraft that meet their needs. It's funny that DL has made an enemy in the Boeing fans on this website because they will still operate more Boeing aircraft in the future than Airbus aircraft.

Anyways, I feel that the 797 is a great fit for Deltas fleet based on everything we understand about it. They don't buy aircraft to appease to political standings...

jfk777 wrote:

AS a huge user of 767 Delta and the world has been waiting too long for the 797. Boeing has been too worried about the "Emiratization" of the world's airplanes beling able to fly 8,000 miles. No one bothered to ask about the 5,000 mile market. The 787-9 and 777-9 fly up to 9,000 miles and that cost money in extra weight that has to be carried for all that extra fuel, one problem is many airlines use 777 & 787 on 5,000 flights. Seattle forgot about the 767, even though the A330 killed it. The 797 is a plane that should have been built circa 2005.

They have too much going on. Until recently the 787-10 and 787 rampup projects, the 737MAX design and production, and 777X preproduction have been going on. They've had their hands full for a while

Just my opinion. Delta has little or no interest in the Boeing 787. They cancelled their orders that they picked up due to their merger with Northwest Airlines. Delta took extra 737s. Delta had sufficient aircraft so the 787 did not fit into their needs. Now their is a need developing and and will retire aircraft that are starting to get long in the tooth when something like the 797 will be available.

jubguy3 wrote:

DL realized that the 787 wasn't the right aircraft at the right time for them.

Which honestly is a little surprising, with all the p2p TATL flying they do. It just seems the 787-8 would have been a perfect replacement for the 767's they had on those routes. The order they had must not have been a good deal I guess. Perhaps the 797 will be in lieu of ordering the 787.

Antarius wrote:

727200 wrote:

I thought I read that UA and SW will be the launch customers; and more articles pointed to UA. Guess DL realized they missed the boat on the 787 and figure they better not be left all alone again.

SW like Southwest?

I highly doubt WN/Southwest is abandoning its successful single type rating model to introduce a 797.

If they want to grow internationally, the 797 will be logical next step for them and honestly I think it’s absolute perfect timing for them with when the 797 is expected to EIS.

jubguy3 wrote:

727200 wrote:

I thought I read that UA and SW will be the launch customers; and more articles pointed to UA. Guess DL realized they missed the boat on the 787 and figure they better not be left all alone again.

They missed the boat the same way AA is presumably going to "miss the boat" on the A350 when they are expected to cancel their A350 order. Certain aircraft meet certain demands, and DL realized that the 787 wasn't the right aircraft at the right time for them.

And SW isn't an airline code. It's funny how Delta chooses the right aircraft for their fleet and people lose their minds thinking they are abandoning Boeing. The 797 will fit well into Delta's fleet. Within the last few years it has made sense for Delta to order Airbus aircraft, but as with any large airline, a single brand will not meet their needs, so they are cyclicly going to gravitate towards Boeing aircraft that meet their needs. It's funny that DL has made an enemy in the Boeing fans on this website because they will still operate more Boeing aircraft in the future than Airbus aircraft.

Anyways, I feel that the 797 is a great fit for Deltas fleet based on everything we understand about it. They don't buy aircraft to appease to political standings...

Perfectly stated. Delta seems to always choose the right plane for their routes. While it ticks off fans from A and B, the shareholders love it. Plus, Delta does a good job on the personnel side of things as well.

NWAROOSTER wrote:

Just my opinion. Delta has little or no interest in the Boeing 787. They cancelled their orders that they picked up due to their merger with Northwest Airlines. Delta took extra 737s. Delta had sufficient aircraft so the 787 did not fit into their needs. Now their is a need developing and and will retire aircraft that are starting to get long in the tooth when something like the 797 will be available.

I am genuinely curious. I'd love to know Delta's rationale for not flying the 787, considering they are the only major North American airline (that has long haul operations) that is not flying it or has any on order (even most, if not all of their JV partners are flying it). With all the p2p TATL flying they do, you'd think there would be a need for some to replace their 767's, but I guess they feel the A330neo and the A350 will replace those (even though one could make an argument both may be too much plane for those routes). I thought their order for 18 or so 787's was reasonable, it just must not have been a good deal for them.

ADrum23 wrote:

jubguy3 wrote:

DL realized that the 787 wasn't the right aircraft at the right time for them.

Which honestly is a little surprising, with all the p2p TATL flying they do. It just seems the 787-8 would have been a perfect replacement for the 767's they had on those routes. The order they had must not have been a good deal I guess. Perhaps the 797 will be in lieu of ordering the 787.

I think they're on record saying that they actually felt the 787 was a superior / capable aircraft, but the deal Northwest struck with Boeing and the delivery timeframe did not meet their needs, which is why they deferred and then cancelled the order. It sounds like Airbus cut a good deal. I'm sad about the 787-8 cancellation because it would have been a perfect aircraft for Salt Lake City.

ikolkyo wrote:

Antarius wrote:

727200 wrote:

I thought I read that UA and SW will be the launch customers; and more articles pointed to UA. Guess DL realized they missed the boat on the 787 and figure they better not be left all alone again.

SW like Southwest?

I highly doubt WN/Southwest is abandoning its successful single type rating model to introduce a 797.

If they want to grow internationally, the 797 will be logical next step for them and honestly I think it’s absolute perfect timing for them with when the 797 is expected to EIS.

Exactly. They don't need to abandon their business model that has made them successful, but there are certains areas where WN needs to grow up and start acting like other airlines. Codesharing with foreign carriers and expanding international service are among those areas. The 797 would be the perfect plane for them to start TATL service with.

Delta flys aircraft whether purchased new or used until they become uneconomical to operate due to higher maintenance costs and the availability of of parts at a price Delta is willing to pay. Delta will continue to buy used aircraft at the right price whether it is for parts or to use in revenue service.. Delta is always looking for the biggest bang for the buck.

Antarius wrote:

ADrum23 wrote:

Exactly. They don't need to abandon their business model that has made them successful, but there are certains areas where WN needs to grow up and start acting like other airlines. Codesharing with foreign carriers and expanding international service are among those areas. The 797 would be the perfect plane for them to start TATL service with.

Why do they need to "grow up and start acting like other airlines"? If they have happy shareholders, happy customers and happy crew/staff then why break from your mold to try to flight with competitors while adding a large cost structure?

Codesharing would be great, but IMO, every airline does not need to fly the latest and greatest and expand internationally. \

WN is great if you need a quick trip within the lower 48, but as they expand from being a niche LCC to a major domestic airline, their tiny international service and lack of codeshare options to connect outside of the lower 48 makes them a much less attractive option.

SWA is interested in the 797 because it will have a lot in common with the 737 replacement.

Antarius wrote:

ADrum23 wrote:

Exactly. They don't need to abandon their business model that has made them successful, but there are certains areas where WN needs to grow up and start acting like other airlines. Codesharing with foreign carriers and expanding international service are among those areas. The 797 would be the perfect plane for them to start TATL service with.

Why do they need to "grow up and start acting like other airlines"? If they have happy shareholders, happy customers and happy crew/staff then why break from your mold to try to flight with competitors while adding a large cost structure?

Codesharing would be great, but IMO, every airline does not need to fly the latest and greatest and expand internationally. \

Seconded. Even in the case of codesharing, which I would consider a relatively low hanging fruit held up by technical and labor issues, it's would still entail a heck of a lot less incremental risk, complexity, and cost than TATL expansion. WN succeeds through executing what it's good at, not following for the sake of following.

As for DL, the 767 fleet still collectively has a fair amount of life in it. And as the 330neos come in and move into the JV hub-to-hub space in places like ATL, DTW, and JFK, that'll free up additional 767 flying for places like RDU and other "focus cities". I still think that the 797 could definitely fill a distuct and useful role in that same kind of flying but it's too early to read too far into it while things are still so speculative.

jfk777 wrote:

AS a huge user of 767 Delta and the world has been waiting too long for the 797. Boeing has been too worried about the "Emiratization" of the world's airplanes beling able to fly 8,000 miles. No one bothered to ask about the 5,000 mile market. The 787-9 and 777-9 fly up to 9,000 miles and that cost money in extra weight that has to be carried for all that extra fuel, one problem is many airlines use 777 & 787 on 5,000 flights. Seattle forgot about the 767, even though the A330 killed it. The 797 is a plane that should have been built circa 2005.

The Emiratization of airplanes? You just said yourself the MOM should of been built in 2005. Boeing made the cock up by not re engining the 757 and/or 767 earlier. Not sure what Emirates has to do with this?

ikolkyo wrote:

Varsity1 wrote:

Delta knows if they sour the relationship with Boeing much more, it will ruin any negotiation advantage they have with Airbus. Airbus has a captive audience with Delta on anything larger than a C-Series and will price accordingly.

Or they are interested in this aircraft like all the other US3 have shown (including Delta) since the first talks of this aircraft.

So we have major airlines from around the world who have seen the preliminary specs for this aircraft are gushing about it. Boeing may have another order “euphoria” like they experienced with the 787.

Revelation wrote:

See also discussion that started three hours ago in:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1374685&start=950#p20170719

That post almost cost me a new keyboard when I first read it.

Antarius wrote:

I highly doubt WN/Southwest is abandoning its successful single type rating model to introduce a 797.

Never ?
Or will they transition to another single type over a period of years ?

william wrote:

So we have major airlines from around the world who have seen the preliminary specs for this aircraft are gushing about it. Boeing may have another order “euphoria” like they experienced with the 787.

Wasn't the rush for the 787 driven by the seriously low prices, driven by the belief that production costs would be so low with the new technology ?

I do hear a lot of mention of production technology for the 797, so I suspect that the offering price is also low on account of that.

Maybe this time they can do it, just as the A350 seems to have benefited from the lessons on the A380

re dl and the 787, i think you can make the case that their 350s will fit into almost all the routes where they could have deployed the 787. Given the sizable 757/767 fleets in the US3, I think they are all ideal 797 candidates, the gap (that the 757/767 currently occupy) between the 321 and 330 is large, both in capacity and range. Also I think 787 use on northeast TATL routes is overkill, it was not designed for those missions.

The 797 is a 757 replacement. Now that Bloomberg let the cat out of the bag Delta and Boeing have kissed and made up and Delta will be the exclusive launch customer for the 797.

DaufuskieGuy wrote:

re dl and the 787, i think you can make the case that their 350s will fit into almost all the routes where they could have deployed the 787. Given the sizable 757/767 fleets in the US3, I think they are all ideal 797 candidates, the gap (that the 757/767 currently occupy) between the 321 and 330 is large, both in capacity and range. Also I think 787 use on northeast TATL routes is overkill, it was not designed for those missions.

A350 is too big for most mid-sized market TATL routes. A350 is closer to a 777 replacement than a 767 replacement (what the 787 is).

MIflyer12 wrote:

Varsity1 wrote:

Delta knows if they sour the relationship with Boeing much more, it will ruin any negotiation advantage they have with Airbus. Airbus has a captive audience with Delta on anything larger than a C-Series and will price accordingly.

I would offer a different rationale: they think 788s and 338/339 aren't quite right for many of the TATL routes that see 763s today. Premium cabin passengers want non-stop. They can't push everything thru Paris and Amsterdam and have good yields.

Bingo. Hence the market for the MoM/797. It is not just DL. You have AA/UA/AC/NH/JL. That is hundreds of frames. I am not saying that is the only market, but that is a lot of planes that have yet to be replaced. A321NEOLR is a great plane, nut mainline carriers are not going to downsize their INTL birds that much, those will be more fringe use cases. There is a market.

MIflyer12 wrote:

Varsity1 wrote:

Delta knows if they sour the relationship with Boeing much more, it will ruin any negotiation advantage they have with Airbus. Airbus has a captive audience with Delta on anything larger than a C-Series and will price accordingly.

I would offer a different rationale: they think 788s and 338/339 aren't quite right for many of the TATL routes that see 763s today. Premium cabin passengers want non-stop. They can't push everything thru Paris and Amsterdam and have good yields.

As long as you don't call it point-to-point.

dochawk2 wrote:

Here is an article from Bloomberg: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... yptr=yahoo

Personally, I would love for this to be the case. We shall see! I guess they actually need to design and build one first. May the 797 take flight and create 30 years more of threads on Airliners.net!!!!

has to be #FakeNews.

The armchair CEOs and airbus fan boys of anet have made it clear Delta loves Airbus and hates Boeing.

william wrote:

Revelation wrote:

See also discussion that started three hours ago in:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1374685&start=950#p20170719

That post almost cost me a new keyboard when I first read it.

LOL, though it must be a worst case scenario for Airbus fanbois.

DL is supposed to be Airbus's BFF but all of a sudden DL's touting the '797'.

What's next, DL's MAX-10 order?

Revelation wrote:

See also discussion that started three hours ago in:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1374685&start=950#p20170719

It's fair for this to have its own topic (even if there is some duplication with the 797 thread), but thank you for posting it — it's a good reference, if nothing else.

✈️ atcsundevil

jubguy3 wrote:

And SW isn't an airline code.

It is...just for Air Namibia.

They started as South West Air Transport way back in 1946, hence why they have SW and Southwest have WN.

On topic, this is certainly an interesting U-turn for Delta vs. Boeing. However, it seems that DL doesn't have a clear allegiance towards any manufacturer but just buys the best product available for each function (as any airline should!).

One airline I'm 100% will order the 797 the minute it comes out is FI, at least if the specs that have been floating around do become a reality then it's a match made in heaven.

regards!
Sveinn

Arion640 wrote:

jfk777 wrote:

AS a huge user of 767 Delta and the world has been waiting too long for the 797. Boeing has been too worried about the "Emiratization" of the world's airplanes beling able to fly 8,000 miles. No one bothered to ask about the 5,000 mile market. The 787-9 and 777-9 fly up to 9,000 miles and that cost money in extra weight that has to be carried for all that extra fuel, one problem is many airlines use 777 & 787 on 5,000 flights. Seattle forgot about the 767, even though the A330 killed it. The 797 is a plane that should have been built circa 2005.

The Emiratization of airplanes? You just said yourself the MOM should of been built in 2005. Boeing made the cock up by not re engining the 757 and/or 767 earlier. Not sure what Emirates has to do with this?

The "Emiratization " refers to what a Lufthansa executive says about the 777-9, its builts for harsh takeoff conditions in Dubai to fly 9,000 miles. LH operates longest sector is to Buenos Aires which is about 7,000 miles. LH is paying for extra takeoff performance and extra infrastructue (weight) on the 777-9 to handle the Capability Emirates needs. Boeing built the 777-9 to the capability needs by the ME3 since they placed a huge launch order for over 200 777-8/9.

Raise your hand if you find Delta wanting to be a launch customer for the 797 hard to be believe. (My hand is not raised.) I have no idea why this is so shocking to those on this forum. During the RFP for the 767/747 replacements, Delta executives said they were looking for an aircraft of a range of 5500 nm to replace the 767 fleet. Airbus launched the A330 NEO no thanks in large part due to Delta desiring a cost efficient aircraft for shorter ranges. Notice I am not mentioning the 787 or A350. While we can debate how the 787-8 could have fit into Delta's longhaul fleet, in fact I think it would have been perfect for Delta to establish the SEA hub with the 787-8, but it did not factor into Delta's plans for the 767 replacement as the 767 predominately flies on TATL/Deep South America flights. Delta executives repeatedly stated that it was in their view that the airline should not fly aircraft with near ULH on shorter routes such as DL's 767 routes. Delta only ordered 25 A330 NEOs as they will replace the oldest 37 767-300ERs. (The 10 deferred A350s will either be delivered or converted into more A330 NEOS.) There are 21 GE powered 767-300ERs that were delivered to Delta in between the summer of 1998 and the summer of 2001. These aircraft have about ten years of life left in them before the boneyard. The 75S fleet is about two years older on average than the 21 youngest 767-300ERs, although I believe they have had more down time as AA stored some of them after the TWA merger. So Delta will be looking at a replacement for these 39 aircraft with deliveries occurring in the last years of the next decade.

Delta could have ordered the A321 NEO LR when they placed the order for 100 A321 NEOs in December. But they didn't. Its possible they could convert some of the order to the A321 NEO LR but there is warranted scepticism among the US 3 over the viability of the A321 NEO LR as an International 757 replacement.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say Delta eventually orders 40+ 797s as they replace their international 757s/767s. As for a replacement for the 21 767-400ERs and 21 PMNW A330-300s, I'd look to the 787-10.

Nothing complicated about Delta's comments. IMO they would love to be a launch customer for a Boeing offered in a similar size, or maybe with an extra 16 seats, to the 767-300ER, with a similar range, as long as each is priced to Delta at between $74 and $80mm each (price to Delta, after discounts and launch pricing), provided said 797 has CASM economics about 25% lower than 767-300ER. And they would like Tech Ops to have a roll in maintenance for this aircraft and the engines. As yes they would order about 100-120 of them for delivery spread over about 7 years to replace the existing 767-300ER, 767-400 and 757-300 fleets. Keep in mind they are getting the A339 for about $87-$93mm each, per my calculations, , as launch customer, so that in my mind is the basis of their Capex target for a 797.

Nothing complicated about Delta's comments. IMO they would love to be a launch customer for a Boeing offered in a similar size, or maybe with an extra 16 seats, to the 767-300ER, with a similar range, as long as each is priced to Delta at between $74 and $80mm each (price to Delta, after discounts and launch pricing), provided said 797 has CASM economics about 25% lower than 767-300ER. And they would like Tech Ops to have a roll in maintenance for this aircraft and the engines. As yes they would order about 100-120 of them for delivery spread over about 7 years to replace the existing 767-300ER, 767-400 and 757-300 fleets. Keep in mind they are getting the A339 for about $87-$93mm each, per my calculations, , as launch customer, so that in my mind is the basis of their Capex target for a 797.