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USAOZ
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Rumour: NZ to fly AKL/DEN nonstop

Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:45 am

Just heard rumour that nz will fly akl den nonstop from end of year codeshsring with ua but no idea of frequency
Last edited by qf789 on Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Added rumour in title
 
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stl07
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Re: NZ to fly AKL/DEN nonstop

Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:53 am

USAOZ wrote:
Just heard rumour that nz will fly akl den nonstop from end of year codeshsring with ua but no idea of frequency

Wow, interesting. Any idea as to why ORD wasn't picked?
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planemanofnz
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Re: NZ to fly AKL/DEN nonstop

Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:55 am

Wow - it would be helpful if you elaborated on where you heard this rumour, and what exactly was said.

AKL - DEN is not an unrealistic proposition:

- DEN was considered in the past by NZ, along with LAS and IAH, but NZ eventually went with IAH.
- AKL - DEN is only slightly shorter than AKL - IAH, so the 772 could be used, unlike on AKL - ORD.
- QF is rumoured to be launching BNE - ORD soon, so NZ is unlikely to want to compete with them.

That being said, Colorado sends less visitors to New Zealand than Illinois, and O&D would be small.

Cheers,

C.
 
USAOZ
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Re: Rumour: NZ to fly AKL/DEN nonstop

Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:58 am

Presume aimed at the thousands of skiers from Australia & new Zealand who go to Colorado every week in northern winter plus den is a ua hub as now skiing is Much Cheaper in colorado than Canada despite the exchange rate
 
planemanofnz
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Re: Rumour: NZ to fly AKL/DEN nonstop

Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:08 am

USAOZ wrote:
Presume aimed at the thousands of skiers from Australia & new Zealand who go to Colorado every week in northern winter ...

In which case, would this be a seasonal route only?

Cheers,

C.
 
dia77
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Re: Rumour: NZ to fly AKL/DEN nonstop

Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:43 am

USAOZ wrote:
Just heard rumour that nz will fly akl den nonstop from end of year codeshsring with ua but no idea of frequency


Any sources?
 
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Re: Rumour: NZ to fly AKL/DEN nonstop

Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:52 am

Not impossible (hub to hub), but this seems sketchy without any official source.

How would a 772ER do from DEN-AKL? Gotta imagine that would push it to its limits with the elevation departing DEN?
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Rumour: NZ to fly AKL/DEN nonstop

Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:30 am

Sounds like a stretch, what's the source?

Not sure what they gain from DEN that the combo of LAX+IAH can't grant... other than performance issues on the westbound. :-/
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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Re: Rumour: NZ to fly AKL/DEN nonstop

Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:59 am

LAX772LR wrote:

Not sure what they gain from DEN that the combo of LAX+IAH can't grant... other than performance issues on the westbound. :-/


DEN will gain them seamless access to the Rockies for winter and summer sports. Many prime spots do not have direct flights from LAX, SFO or IAH. But whether this in itself justifies the service I'm not sure. Perhaps 3 x weekly?
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USAOZ
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Re: Rumour: NZ to fly AKL/DEN nonstop

Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:43 am

Didn't nz start yvr with around 3 per week initially?
 
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intotheair
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Re: Rumour: NZ to fly AKL/DEN nonstop

Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:51 am

This is one of those that has been rumored/speculated for a while. It still seems like a stretch to me even on the backdrop of DEN's recent international explosion.
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USAOZ
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Re: Rumour: NZ to fly AKL/DEN nonstop

Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:51 am

intotheair wrote:
This is one of those that has been rumored/speculated for a while. It still seems like a stretch to me even on the backdrop of DEN's recent international explosion.
source who can't reveal

implied it's more than a rumour & will start later this year. Only question was when & how often.

Surely a 787 wouldn't be weight restricted den akl ?
 
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Re: Rumour: NZ to fly AKL/DEN nonstop

Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:59 am

USAOZ wrote:
source who can't reveal implied it's more than a rumour & will start later this year. Only question was when & how often.

So you didn't start the rumour?

PA515
 
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Re: Rumour: NZ to fly AKL/DEN nonstop

Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:36 pm

The ORD rumor seemed to have more teeth and plausibility than this one.
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BC77008
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Re: Rumour: NZ to fly AKL/DEN nonstop

Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:59 pm

Why would a source “who can’t reveal” run and tell you all about it so you can post it up on a-net?
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Re: Rumour: NZ to fly AKL/DEN nonstop

Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:00 pm

Starting this route for ski traffic is beyond idiotic. There would have to be more to it then that.
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Thenoflyzone
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Re: Rumour: NZ to fly AKL/DEN nonstop

Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:02 pm

I don't think DEN-AKL is doable non stop without heavy payload restrictions, either on the 789 or B77E.

Specifically for the B789, it's a 40,000 lb payload hit on departure.
Last edited by Thenoflyzone on Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rumour: NZ to fly AKL/DEN nonstop

Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:33 pm

First Aer Lingus and now Air New Zealand can an Emirates rumor be far behind.
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mariner
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Re: Rumour: NZ to fly AKL/DEN nonstop

Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:18 pm

USAOZ wrote:
Just heard rumour that nz will fly akl den nonstop from end of year codeshsring with ua but no idea of frequency


I think this is bulldust.

New Zealand is a very small country with a total population of less than five million. If the national airline were planning a major route, such as AKL-DEN would be, I think we'd have heard about it. The jungle drums beat loud down here and there has been not a peep in the local news.

There was some mention of it some years ago when a delegation from Denver Interational Airport came to town to "sell" Denver, but Air NZ said then that they have "no plans" for such a service. I understand that things can change but I don't think this is one of them.

There have also been questions about payload restrictions on the return DEN-AKL because of the high altitude of DIA.

Not to say it won't happen one day, but it doesn't presently appear in many of the discussions that Air New Zealand has about future destinations. ORD and NYC, yes, but not DEN. So I'm going to need rather more than an unsourced rumour on a.net to buy it.

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Re: Rumour: NZ to fly AKL/DEN nonstop

Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:24 pm

klm617 wrote:
First Aer Lingus and now Air New Zealand can an Emirates rumor be far behind.


That Emirates rumor has been going around for a year. DEN sent their reps to Dubai to lure them, and the mayor even has an Emirates model on his desk.
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Re: Rumour: NZ to fly AKL/DEN nonstop

Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:24 pm

Seems to me, between LAX, SFO and IAH, NZ can get you to most places that UA flies to for connections. ORD would likely happen first, if ever, but I don't see it happening..
 
winginit
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Re: Rumour: NZ to fly AKL/DEN nonstop

Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:55 pm

mariner wrote:
USAOZ wrote:
Just heard rumour that nz will fly akl den nonstop from end of year codeshsring with ua but no idea of frequency


I think this is bulldust.


Here here. Nonsense - the economics simply don't work and NZ has better places to deploy a widebody.
 
trexel94
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Re: Rumour: NZ to fly AKL/DEN nonstop

Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:07 pm

Fake News

Where are people getting these "rumors"? Its getting tiring. DEN officials met with NZ in 2014 to discuss potential service but NZ stated they had no interest in serving DEN anytime soon (i'm assuming small market, aircraft performance issues, LAX, SFO and IAH, costs etc). The status quo most likely still remains and NZ has better places to fly. At least Aer Lingus has some credibility with actual news sources.
 
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Re: Rumour: NZ to fly AKL/DEN nonstop

Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:04 am

somewhat related i wonder how syd iah and akl iah will hold up given no oz/nz service at all until very recently.
 
USAOZ
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Re: Rumour: NZ to fly AKL/DEN nonstop

Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:17 am

Makes perfect sense to.me say 2 or 3 times a week in dec-jan. Just like qf did syd yvr.
 
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Re: Rumour: NZ to fly AKL/DEN nonstop

Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:31 am

Not sure how true this rumor is or not, but just before NZ took delivery of their brand new 787-9's a few years ago they did bring one to DEN for a couple days and had it parked at B32. Would love to see them here on a regular basis, even then there was talk of DEN being on the short list for service
 
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Re: Rumour: NZ to fly AKL/DEN nonstop

Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:15 am

Hhttp://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/new ... d=11256224

Here’s an article from 4 years ago saying no ‘current’ plans for DEN.

mariner wrote:
USAOZ wrote:
Just heard rumour that nz will fly akl den nonstop from end of year codeshsring with ua but no idea of frequency


I think this is bulldust.

New Zealand is a very small country with a total population of less than five million. If the national airline were planning a major route, such as AKL-DEN would be, I think we'd have heard about it. The jungle drums beat loud down here and there has been not a peep in the local news.

There was some mention of it some years ago when a delegation from Denver Interational Airport came to town to "sell" Denver, but Air NZ said then that they have "no plans" for such a service. I understand that things can change but I don't think this is one of them.

There have also been questions about payload restrictions on the return DEN-AKL because of the high altitude of DIA.

Not to say it won't happen one day, but it doesn't presently appear in many of the discussions that Air New Zealand has about future destinations. ORD and NYC, yes, but not DEN. So I'm going to need rather more than an unsourced rumour on a.net to buy it.

mariner


The poster is quite unreliable and focused on markets like The IVC hub to Australia. There is however speculation of a new US route announcement in March, maybe it’s 2 routes? Or none?

There is talk in the current NZ thread about new seasonal routes or a seasonal route outside of the current focus area like DPS/SGN, who knows what it is but this is more plausible than a hub at IVC. Or probably more plausible imo than an NZ service to ICN competing head to head with KE.

Or maybe I’m reading to much into it. Like I say not the most reliable poster to be takin bait from and given DEN altitude for the return? I can see a DEC-MAR 3 weekly seasonal with some incentives from DEN for NZ to operate such a flight.
 
planemanofnz
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Re: Rumour: NZ to fly AKL/DEN nonstop

Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:18 am

Thenoflyzone wrote:
I don't think DEN-AKL is doable non stop without heavy payload restrictions, either on the 789 or B77E.

Specifically for the B789, it's a 40,000 lb payload hit on departure.

For the 777-200ER, at 5,000 ft and a normal temperature of +15 C, a 777-200ER is limited to about 580K lbs MTOW (normal is close to 660K lbs). With a ~6500 nm route, the aircraft then only has capacity to carry about 200 - 250 passengers. NZ’s 777-200ERs have ~300 seats, so that would be a big weight restriction.

Cheers,

C.
 
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Re: Rumour: NZ to fly AKL/DEN nonstop

Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:31 am

Forget the payload, the 777 more importantly is tire speed limited at DEN. Thats why UA never could launch NRT with the 777 and its short attempt at seasonal DEN-LHR was also restricted.
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caverunner17
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Re: Rumour: NZ to fly AKL/DEN nonstop

Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:04 am

LAXintl wrote:
Forget the payload, the 777 more importantly is tire speed limited at DEN. Thats why UA never could launch NRT with the 777 and its short attempt at seasonal DEN-LHR was also restricted.

That's not true. BA flew the 777 into DEN for a long time. It's the 767 that is tire speed limited at Denver.

Also AM used to fly the 77E from MEX-MAD which is only 100 miles or so shorter than DEN-NRT and MEX is almost 2000' higher than DEN.

It most likely had to do with the 777 being too big for either LHR or NRT at the time to start the route plus UA's 777's were premium heavy with a first class and business that DEN might not have been able to fill profitably.

Also, both ANA and Air Mexico fly MEX-NRT non-stop on the 787 which is only 350 miles shorter than DEN-AKL at 2000' higher. I don't think it's a stretch of the imagination to see that it is possible on the 787 at least.
Last edited by caverunner17 on Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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mariner
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Re: Rumour: NZ to fly AKL/DEN nonstop

Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:10 am

USAOZ wrote:
Makes perfect sense to.me say 2 or 3 times a week in dec-jan. Just like qf did syd yvr.


It would make sense to me, too, I've long advocated the route. I think NZ and QF are missing out by ignoring DEN, whose fortunes I've followed since 1998, but my advocacy can't ignore the physics of aircraft, the altitude of DEN and the economics of the route. It wouldn't be easy.

If you have a linkable source that confirms the route, that would go some way to alleviating my cynicism and I'm quite ready to eat humble pie. But as I said, I need rather more than an unsourced post on a.net.

mariner
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janders
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Re: Rumour: NZ to fly AKL/DEN nonstop

Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:34 am

Just looked at my company 777-200ER performance from Denver and it's indeed limited with tire speed and takes a pretty good performance hit especially warmer days. In other words all the runway in the world won't help lift more weight when you hit the tire speed limitation.
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jubguy3
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Re: Rumour: NZ to fly AKL/DEN nonstop

Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:36 am

LAXintl wrote:
Forget the payload, the 777 more importantly is tire speed limited at DEN. Thats why UA never could launch NRT with the 777 and its short attempt at seasonal DEN-LHR was also restricted.


Does the 777 have a relatively low tire speed limit?
 
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janders
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Re: Rumour: NZ to fly AKL/DEN nonstop

Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:00 am

I believe all 777 family is 235mph/(~204kts) limited.

Here is a spec sheet from Bridgestone which includes tire speeds for its various tire model for various aircraft types.
https://www.bridgestone.com/products/sp ... ations.pdf
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LAX772LR
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Re: Rumour: NZ to fly AKL/DEN nonstop

Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:01 am

NZ321 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:

Not sure what they gain from DEN that the combo of LAX+IAH can't grant... other than performance issues on the westbound. :-/


DEN will gain them seamless access to the Rockies for winter and summer sports. Many prime spots do not have direct flights from LAX, SFO or IAH. But whether this in itself justifies the service I'm not sure. Perhaps 3 x weekly?

Can you give examples of such "prime spots" that somehow can't be easily reached through LAX/IAH... but would generate sufficient 1stop traffic to New Zealand such that a carrier operating 14hr+ flights would care?


janders wrote:
I believe all 777 family is 235mph/(~204kts) limited.

Here is a spec sheet from Bridgestone which includes tire speeds for its various tire model for various aircraft types.
https://www.bridgestone.com/products/sp ... ations.pdf

DL worked with Boeing, regulators, and Goodyear for (what was then) a custom tire for its JNB nonstop ops on the 77L.... not sure what its speed rating was though.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
caverunner17
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Re: Rumour: NZ to fly AKL/DEN nonstop

Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:05 am

janders wrote:
I believe all 777 family is 235mph/(~204kts) limited.

Here is a spec sheet from Bridgestone which includes tire speeds for its various tire model for various aircraft types.
https://www.bridgestone.com/products/sp ... ations.pdf

Does the LR has significantly more lift than the ER model? The wing area of the LR with the wingtips is only 2% larger than the ER model.

Otherwise, how does DL fly JNB-ATL with the LR without hitting these limits?
 
USAOZ
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Re: Rumour: NZ to fly AKL/DEN nonstop

Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:17 am

Who said 777 ? What about 787 ?
 
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Re: Rumour: NZ to fly AKL/DEN nonstop

Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:04 am

LAX772LR wrote:
NZ321 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:

Not sure what they gain from DEN that the combo of LAX+IAH can't grant... other than performance issues on the westbound. :-/


DEN will gain them seamless access to the Rockies for winter and summer sports. Many prime spots do not have direct flights from LAX, SFO or IAH. But whether this in itself justifies the service I'm not sure. Perhaps 3 x weekly?

Can you give examples of such "prime spots" that somehow can't be easily reached through LAX/IAH... but would generate sufficient 1stop traffic to New Zealand such that a carrier operating 14hr+ flights would care?


It’s deja vu, all over again, with turned tables.
 
NTLDaz
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Re: Rumour: NZ to fly AKL/DEN nonstop

Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:15 am

Whilst this rumour probably has no legs and notwithstanding any performance issues out of Denver it's not completely bonkers.

QF do Vancouver for the ski crowd so there is a precedent of sorts.
 
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Re: Rumour: NZ to fly AKL/DEN nonstop

Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:43 am

NTLDaz wrote:
Whilst this rumour probably has no legs and notwithstanding any performance issues out of Denver it's not completely bonkers.

QF do Vancouver for the ski crowd so there is a precedent of sorts.

NZ also do Vancouver, for what it's worth.

V/F
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NTLDaz
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Re: Rumour: NZ to fly AKL/DEN nonstop

Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:46 am

VirginFlyer wrote:
NTLDaz wrote:
Whilst this rumour probably has no legs and notwithstanding any performance issues out of Denver it's not completely bonkers.

QF do Vancouver for the ski crowd so there is a precedent of sorts.

NZ also do Vancouver, for what it's worth.

V/F


Yes I know. I was referencing QF to show a possible ' ski express ' seasonal service may be possible. Didn't make that clear.
 
Motorhussy
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Re: Rumour: NZ to fly AKL/DEN nonstop

Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:41 am

Before NZ launched IAH rumours were circulating promoting LAS and ORD as the front runners for 5he new destination launch announcement. I suspected at the time that this was misinformation promoted by NZ as red herrings for the competition. Perhaps a similar tactic is being employed prior to the announcement next month of ORD.

DEN is highly unlikely without the A359.
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Thenoflyzone
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Re: Rumour: NZ to fly AKL/DEN nonstop

Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:23 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Forget the payload, the 777 more importantly is tire speed limited at DEN. Thats why UA never could launch NRT with the 777 and its short attempt at seasonal DEN-LHR was also restricted.


The payload hit is directly related to max tire speed on departure.

USAOZ wrote:
Who said 777 ? What about 787 ?


Slghtly better performance out of DEN, but still a heavy payload hit. Assuming ISA conditions (which for DEN is about +3 C), the 789 will leave 40,000 lb of payload at DEN, as opposed to 60 to 65,000 lb for the 77E.

Obviously on warmer days, the payload hit will be greater.

planemanofnz previously posted that if the temp at DEN is +15C, the 77E will leave close to 80,000 lb of payload at DEN.

USAOZ wrote:
Makes perfect sense to.me say 2 or 3 times a week in dec-jan. Just like qf did syd yvr.


YVR-Australia is a far larger market than DEN-NZ.

YVR-NZ is also much larger than DEN-NZ, which is why Air New Zealand operates the former, and not the latter.
Last edited by Thenoflyzone on Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:42 pm, edited 9 times in total.
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MIflyer12
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Re: Rumour: NZ to fly AKL/DEN nonstop

Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:24 pm

USAOZ wrote:
Presume aimed at the thousands of skiers from Australia & new Zealand who go to Colorado every week in northern winter plus den is a ua hub as now skiing is Much Cheaper in colorado than Canada despite the exchange rate


Can you point to a source for that ski visitor count?
 
NZ321
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Re: Rumour: NZ to fly AKL/DEN nonstop

Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:40 pm

The point about DEN would be that NZ market won't sustain it on it's own so it's about connectivity at AKL.
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Re: Rumour: NZ to fly AKL/DEN nonstop

Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:16 pm

[*]
NZ321 wrote:
The point about DEN would be that NZ market won't sustain it on it's own so it's about connectivity at AKL.


It won’t be able to sustain it either way.
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ZK-NBT
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Re: Rumour: NZ to fly AKL/DEN nonstop

Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:10 pm

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news ... d=11256224

It does say there are 61 destinations not reached from LAX/SFO, this was before IAH however, sure they won’t be huge cities though with much more than a small handful of pax per day to NZ or Australia.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Rumour: NZ to fly AKL/DEN nonstop

Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:25 pm

Sorry but this rumor is nonsense...
 
Kden95
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Re: Rumour: NZ to fly AKL/DEN nonstop

Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:49 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
Sorry but this rumor is nonsense...



Then stop feeding the thread with useless comments.
 
Airlinepilot129
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Re: Rumour: NZ to fly AKL/DEN nonstop

Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:09 pm

NZ321 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:

Not sure what they gain from DEN that the combo of LAX+IAH can't grant... other than performance issues on the westbound. :-/


DEN will gain them seamless access to the Rockies for winter and summer sports. Many prime spots do not have direct flights from LAX, SFO or IAH. But whether this in itself justifies the service I'm not sure. Perhaps 3 x weekly?


LAX, SFO, and IAH all have multiple flights across the Rockies? United also regularly touts being the best choice for a Skiers vacation because they serve the most cities in Colorado and the surrounding area to include Gunnison, Steamboat Springs, Vail, Aspen, and Montrose from non-DEN hubs.
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