In the span of one week WW has cancelled service to MIA and now two other airlines (VS & EI) are rumored to be struggling on their flights as well. Personally I’ve never understood the allure of Miami/S Fla (and I grew up and lived in FL the first 25 years of my life).

http://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/ ... mi-flight/

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1386713

I’ve also read posts speculating KL is also struggling. Is the attraction for leisure traffic to MIA just wearing off and the market too saturated?

Your topic claims several European airlines are struggling, yet your post offers no actual proof.

Europeans love Miami. Always have, and continue to. And a weaker U.S. dollar will help driving more European tourists to South Florida.

Not every airline is going to be super successful in South Florida-Europe, there's a lot of competition and capacity. Some airlines will not succeed, but not for lack of demand.

What is your claim based on?

MAH4546 wrote:

Your topic claims several European airlines are struggling, yet your post offers no actual proof.

Europeans love Miami. Always have, and continue to. And a weaker U.S. dollar will help driving more European tourists to South Florida.

Not every airline is going to be super successful in South Florida-Europe, there's a lot of competition and capacity. Some airlines will not succeed, but not for lack of demand.

So an airline cancelling service (that hasn’t cancelled any other station) doesn’t offer any proof that a destination isn’t so popular with Europeans as many claim it is?

What proof do you have that it IS popular?

MAH4546 wrote:

Not every airline is going to be super successful in South Florida-Europe, there's a lot of competition and capacity. Some airlines will not succeed, but not for lack of demand.

So yields are junk?

jmscsc wrote:

What is your claim based on?

The only claim I made was my own experience of MIA from growing up in Florida. If you actually read my post you’ll see that I ASKED if the market was over saturated due to WW cancelling service there and 2 other airlines RUMORED to be struggling.

I suspect the main reason leading to the MIA cancellation of WW is very poor aircraft utilization :

WW131 Reykjavik to Miami departing 6:30PM arriving 10:30PM
WW132 Miami to Reykjavik departing 4:30PM arriving 4:05AM (+1 day)
As you can see, the aircraft utilization for this route is pretty bad, as the plane sits on the ground in Miami for 18 hours.

Aircraft on the ground are not making money...

Yes, the airport with the most European service in the US after JFK is really struggling. Where do these nonsense rumors arise from? Let's get a few things straight, WOW is failing because A) it's competing with Norwegian, who flies nonstop to most major European destinations B) it's flying seat blocked A320's with poor utilization and C) there's so much competition in Miami that WOW's cost savings are almost nonexistent versus a nonstop; next up, VS, Virgin struggling on the MIA route because they had a sweepstakes is flimsy logic, VS has been in Miami for three decades and competes with BA on a fortress to fortress route, if VA was really struggling at MIA, they would've dropped it a couple years ago during their bout of consolidation; in regards to EI, they just launched the route and have pretty low profile in Miami, but I'm sure they're probably doing fine given that they've been going at it for a year, are considering adding more US destinations, and that it's hub to hub. Take a look at the amount of Euro carriers that serve MIA, I'm sure you'll be shocked how competitive it is.

People love to over glorify MIA, but there's also a trend to destroy it for no reason. For some reason a large body of people fail to realize Miami is more than just a beach, it's the 25th largest city in terms of GDP too. Keep your biases at bay, and stick to the facts.

I think Europeans are bored with a Miami , it’s like a tiny overpriced version of Havana - unless they’re going on cruises

clrd4t8koff wrote:

In the span of one week WW has cancelled service to MIA and now two other airlines (VS & EI) are rumored to be struggling on their flights as well. Personally I’ve never understood the allure of Miami/S Fla (and I grew up and lived in FL the first 25 years of my life).

http://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/ ... mi-flight/

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1386713

I’ve also read posts speculating KL is also struggling. Is the attraction for leisure traffic to MIA just wearing off and the market too saturated?

I think WOW struggles are more due to the success of DY at FLL more than anything. The types of markets WOW have targeted for the most part they got to first before Norwegian.

Miami struggling otherwise is news to me. But VS I can see because of the saturation of the market by One World carriers. Virgin's product isn't thought to be as good in terms of service as in the past thus those who flew VS for that purpose now can fly AA or BA, get a similar customer experience and rack up FF miles. DL does have a FF base in South Florida dating back to the days (now seemingly ages ago) when they were the No.1 carrier at FLL by a distance. But that base alone won't keep a VS, aka DL UK competitive on the MIA-LHR routing.

I have to wonder why WW thought MIA would be a good idea, when the trend for LCCs there (other than F9) is to go to FLL, the low-cost hub in the region. That said, this route should have not been started until the A321neo came online.

Plus, those A321s are dropping into Bangor, Maine because they don’t have the legs to do the route without that stop.

LXwing wrote:

I suspect the main reason leading to the MIA cancellation of WW is very poor aircraft utilization :

WW131 Reykjavik to Miami departing 6:30PM arriving 10:30PM
WW132 Miami to Reykjavik departing 4:30PM arriving 4:05AM (+1 day)
As you can see, the aircraft utilization for this route is pretty bad, as the plane sits on the ground in Miami for 18 hours.

Aircraft on the ground are not making money...

Then why did they start DFW with a A330 on the ground for almost 24 hours

The attraction of MIA is the cruise traffic but I would venture to say that most Europeans doing a tour of Florida are flying into MCO near Disney and then motor caching around Florida and then back to MCO for their flight home.

clrd4t8koff wrote:

So an airline cancelling service (that hasn’t cancelled any other station) doesn’t offer any proof that a destination isn’t so popular with Europeans as many claim it is?

Correct, it is absolutely not proof. Miami is the second largest market between the U.S. and Europe. Larger than Chicago, Boston, Los Angeles or San Francisco. It is served by over two dozen trans-Atlantic carriers to around 24-26 different cities. The appeal of WOW is quick connections to the first of Europe in one-stop, but from Miami those cities are reached non-stop, and Keflavik isn't a quick hop like it is from the Northeast.

WOW seasonally suspends Miami service and you think the market has cratered? You are nuts.

klm617 wrote:

The attraction of MIA is the cruise traffic but I would venture to say that most Europeans doing a tour of Florida are flying into MCO near Disney and then motor caching around Florida and then back to MCO for their flight home.

Brits and Irish aside, most Europeans visiting Florida don't leave Miami.

In recent years Miami has added airlines which should have arrived 20 years ago like TAP, SAS and Aer Lingus. The main Miami to Europe route of course is London with 5 daily flights on AA, Virgina and BA. What is hard to Phathom is Miami didn't have a flights to Europe in the Propeller Era of the1950's and early jets of 1960's. One Miami based airline which never flew to Lain America( its Miami) saw the need for Europe and much to Pan Am;s chagrin started flying in 1970 from MIA to LHR with 2 leased Dc-8's. National flew a whole portfolio to europe with Dc-10-30, it started with 2 747-100 after the Dc-8's. National merged with PA and as they say the rest is history.

Based on comments on this site, apart from NYC, no other market is a large and important in all of North America to Europe as Miami is. I am going to assume most, if not all European carriers in Miami have no issue filling their planes up and doing so at a solid yield.

MAH4546 wrote:

Brits and Irish aside, most Europeans visiting Florida don't leave Miami.

Can anyone blame them?

clrd4t8koff wrote:

jmscsc wrote:

What is your claim based on?

The only claim I made was my own experience of MIA from growing up in Florida. If you actually read my post you’ll see that I ASKED if the market was over saturated due to WW cancelling service there and 2 other airlines RUMORED to be struggling.

Growing up in Florida doesn't instantly make you an expert in the logistics of flying in and out of Miami, nor is galley FM a reliable rumour source. Also, I wouldn't say that european airlines are 'struggling,' seeing as many of them fly A380s and 747s. If demand was softer than expected, then they would simply down gauge, not cancel the route.

clrd4t8koff wrote:

In the span of one week WW has cancelled service to MIA and now two other airlines (VS & EI) are rumored to be struggling on their flights as well. Personally I’ve never understood the allure of Miami/S Fla (and I grew up and lived in FL the first 25 years of my life).

http://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/ ... mi-flight/

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1386713

I’ve also read posts speculating KL is also struggling. Is the attraction for leisure traffic to MIA just wearing off and the market too saturated?

This is just a thread to get traffic over to that crappy website of yours!

Galwayman wrote:

I think Europeans are bored with a Miami , it’s like a tiny overpriced version of Havana - unless they’re going on cruises

Right...so bored that we're adding European airlines in MIA and FLL.

Wish I didn't click the link.

While I do t like seeing WOW leave I never thought it made much sense. It's a cheap one-stop to Europe. Miami can get to Europe to almost all major destinations non-stop. And then you have DY out of FLL.

You think Europeans don't come to Miami? You clearly don't live here anymore. Did you not notice BA starting FLL-LGW? Not every European airline will do well, because there is TONS of competition.

MAH4546 wrote:

WOW seasonally suspends Miami service and you think the market has cratered? You are nuts

You are the one that’s nuts. Please shows us where it says the route is going seasonal. In fact the exact quote from the WW rep said - “Service from Miami will be paused starting in April, with the possibility of becoming a seasonal route in the future.”

MAH4647 I’ll be waiting for your source that states it’s going seasonal.

MAH4546 wrote:

Europeans love Miami. Always have, and continue to. And a weaker U.S. dollar will help driving more European tourists to South Florida.

Lots of Europeans are avoiding the U.S. now because of Trump's policies, those that are avoiding won't be lured by a weaker dollar.

I thought that links to competing sites weren't allowed?

Isn’t MIA rather over served? I mean it has a large population to draw from, but it’s geographical location maybe makes it more difficult for connecting pax.

This guy is a troll, people.

Making wild suppositions and then rudely telling your skeptics to foot proof of the blatently obvious - that MIA is a major transatlantic market - is too rich.

clrd4t8koff wrote:

I’ve also read posts speculating KL is also struggling.

The AF/KL/DL join-venture recently added MCO-AMS, I can't see them doing that if KL was struggling at MIA.

Maybe South Florida is losing some allure. At least from my nearby experience, I know more acquittances in Europe taking now holidays in California than in the past. Clearly Norwegian/LEVEL help. Now it is often the same price to fly to California than to the East Coast.

A few years ago the combo was New York + South Florida, but this might be changing to New York + California. In a way, California (at least the Bay Area) is a more millennial destination than South Florida. For European millennials, South Florida might be almost tacky.... the I-95, Mar-a-Lago and Enrique Iglesias is not their dream ... vegan places in Mission, wine in Napa Valley and the Pacific Coast Highway are probably a cooler proposition.

Unrelated (or not), LEVEL has cancelled BCN-PUJ (not the same, but still the Caribbean). 10 years ago that flight would work fine... now this has been chopped and they are adding more flights to California.

LAXLHR wrote:

clrd4t8koff wrote:

In the span of one week WW has cancelled service to MIA and now two other airlines (VS & EI) are rumored to be struggling on their flights as well. Personally I’ve never understood the allure of Miami/S Fla (and I grew up and lived in FL the first 25 years of my life).

http://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/ ... mi-flight/

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1386713

I’ve also read posts speculating KL is also struggling. Is the attraction for leisure traffic to MIA just wearing off and the market too saturated?

This is just a thread to get traffic over to that crappy website of yours!

Amen. It's nothing but clickbait.

F100Flyer wrote:

clrd4t8koff wrote:

jmscsc wrote:

What is your claim based on?

The only claim I made was my own experience of MIA from growing up in Florida. If you actually read my post you’ll see that I ASKED if the market was over saturated due to WW cancelling service there and 2 other airlines RUMORED to be struggling.

Growing up in Florida doesn't instantly make you an expert in the logistics of flying in and out of Miami, nor is galley FM a reliable rumour source. Also, I wouldn't say that european airlines are 'struggling,' seeing as many of them fly A380s and 747s. If demand was softer than expected, then they would simply down gauge, not cancel the route.

That is not factually true, the only 747 consistently these days are the BA ones which are two in the summer and one in the winter plus an winter A380. AF flies an A380 and a summer 777. LH is the only consistent A380 365 days. Everything else is a mix of 777, A330 plus some 787 and an ocasional A340.

klm617 wrote:

LXwing wrote:

I suspect the main reason leading to the MIA cancellation of WW is very poor aircraft utilization :

WW131 Reykjavik to Miami departing 6:30PM arriving 10:30PM
WW132 Miami to Reykjavik departing 4:30PM arriving 4:05AM (+1 day)
As you can see, the aircraft utilization for this route is pretty bad, as the plane sits on the ground in Miami for 18 hours.

Aircraft on the ground are not making money...

Then why did they start DFW with a A330 on the ground for almost 24 hours

If you look at the two Icelandic carriers, it's common the RON 20ish hours for any route not from the east coast.

runway23 wrote:

MAH4546 wrote:

Europeans love Miami. Always have, and continue to. And a weaker U.S. dollar will help driving more European tourists to South Florida.

Lots of Europeans are avoiding the U.S. now because of Trump's policies, those that are avoiding won't be lured by a weaker dollar.

What Trump's policies would affect Europeans so much, they'd actually cancel their US vacation plans? Please elaborate

MAH4546 wrote:

Brits and Irish aside, most Europeans visiting Florida don't leave Miami.

I'd say over here in Tampa/St. Pete we get a fair amount of German and Russian.

Jetty wrote:

clrd4t8koff wrote:

I’ve also read posts speculating KL is also struggling.

The AF/KL/DL join-venture recently added MCO-AMS, I can't see them doing that if KL was struggling at MIA.

MCO is a focus city/quasi hub for DL. MIA is not. You do realize the new DL service to AMS from MCO will be daily whereas MIA-AMS on KL is only 3x weekly?

http://news.delta.com/orlando-amsterdam ... s-march-30

That should be an indicator of how weak MIA-AMS is.

Jetty wrote:

clrd4t8koff wrote:

I’ve also read posts speculating KL is also struggling.

The AF/KL/DL join-venture recently added MCO-AMS, I can't see them doing that if KL was struggling at MIA.

To be fair, KL/AMS has historically struggled to make Florida work... so if they were, it'd be no surprise. But then again, there's no real evidence that they are.

http://www.travelweekly.com/Travel-News ... mi-service

This article isn't exactly clear...it initially mentions that the route is suspended but the later says it was planned and will be a seasonal route.

Either way, with the wrong aircraft and a long time sitting in MIA, it's not hard to see how it would be difficult for them to make anything on that route.

Mark

Many people also use Fort Lauderdale to go to Miami as well. And afaik most European airlines fly to both MIA and FLL, so you can really see the market is crowded. And MIA has been doing quite well for however long it has existed. I doubt it's true. And last thing, if you noticed, WW was flying a 350-seater A330 on the route. For an LCC that's really hard to fill. And VS has to compete with BA and DY in the MIA/FLL market, so it's not all that surprising one of the 3 may run into trouble.

Thing about florida is that culturally anything outside of the major cities is going to be a huge turnoff to most europeans. Miami itself may draw in Europeans but I have a hard time picturing them planning trips too far outside of the city. Also I don't think it's as much of a business destination as it once was.

That's not to say all European routes are doomed, just that I find it plausible it can't support more routes from Europe.

I found this interesting article from 2013 and it shows that Miami is the third most popular destination for Europeans, right after New York and Las Vegas. These are the most popular tourist nationalities that visit Miami:

3. Miami
30% German
18% French
15% British
13% Italian
4% Spanish
4% Swedish
3% Dutch
13% Other

You can find more interesting information here: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/trivago/ ... 65836.html

As a European who regularly goes to the US, it's beyond me why anyone would waste his money to visit Florida when Cuba and certain Asian destinations offer better value for money. If I wanted a beach destination then I would go to California. Southern California is just perfect, especially if your point of entry is Long Beach Airport.

KLM seems to be "haunted" in MIA, but why is this ? KLM flies to many cities in America on both coasts served by the same list of European airlines you expect but seems successful in those other cities. KLM has been flying to some cities for 50 years and more like Houston, a huge Star alliance hub. The question has to be how much does AF- KLM support MIA ? Does the Air France A380 have anything to do with it ?

It is the same with Austrian Airlines. Their only route to the US they are struggling with they said.

There can be various reasons. For me the most accurate reason may be that there are no rare outbound flights options. As OS has no relations to AA there are hardly any connections bookable (if there are some, they are very rare and expensive).

That there are more direct/non-stop flights to destinations some used to hub/transfer via MIA may be a factor. Throw in the hassles of our TSA, exchange rates, the unwelcoming attitude to foreigners led by in part by Pres. Trump's policies, it is no wonder there could be a reduction in some demand at some airports like MIA.

How is Aeroflot doing in Miami? They have been here for almost six years and have gone to six times weekly in the winter season. Also how about SAS?

This is not a political discussion, so please don't turn it into one.

✈️ atcsundevil

Blerg wrote:

I found this interesting article from 2013 and it shows that Miami is the third most popular destination for Europeans, right after New York and Las Vegas. These are the most popular tourist nationalities that visit Miami:

3. Miami
30% German
18% French
15% British
13% Italian
4% Spanish
4% Swedish
3% Dutch
13% Other

You can find more interesting information here: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/trivago/ ... 65836.html

As a European who regularly goes to the US, it's beyond me why anyone would waste his money to visit Florida when Cuba and certain Asian destinations offer better value for money. If I wanted a beach destination then I would go to California. Southern California is just perfect, especially if your point of entry is Long Beach Airport.

appreciate your point of view, but not only are these choices highly subjective, but what weight "value for money" has to any leisure traveler is completely arbitrary. If "value for money" was of paramount importance, there would be no tourism to speak of to the US, Canada, Iceland or Western/Northern Europe. All provide low "value for money".

Obviously something in South Florida is appealing enough to large numbers of mid to affluent Europeans that they continue go to Miami in large numbers, even in this new era of quality facilities in the Caribbean and lower cost travel to the US west coast.

Personally, I find the beach and water experience in California less desirable; but hey - I'd choose Hawaii, SE Asia or Caribbean over either. I have and will continue to go to Florida for one reason - because I have young children, and in many ways, there are not equivalent choices elsewhere at any cost !

Blerg wrote:

I found this interesting article from 2013 and it shows that Miami is the third most popular destination for Europeans, right after New York and Las Vegas. These are the most popular tourist nationalities that visit Miami:

3. Miami
30% German
18% French
15% British
13% Italian
4% Spanish
4% Swedish
3% Dutch
13% Other

You can find more interesting information here: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/trivago/ ... 65836.html

As a European who regularly goes to the US, it's beyond me why anyone would waste his money to visit Florida when Cuba and certain Asian destinations offer better value for money. If I wanted a beach destination then I would go to California. Southern California is just perfect, especially if your point of entry is Long Beach Airport.

Dont go that far, we have Mallorca,Menorca, Canaries....within a few hours from Europe

Fact is that tourism to the US has been on a decline since 2015 when it peaked at 77.5mil visitors. Things like US Dollar have more to do with effecting demand than the new resident on Pennsylvania Avenue.
http://tinet.ita.doc.gov/view/f-2000-99 ... rivals.pdf

Having said that however, some regions like Los Angeles continue to set foreign visitor records still - for 7th year in row in case of LA.
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-l ... story.html

I am still waiting for some sort of empirical substance about the decline of MIA's EU carriers. There are over 20 EU flags touching down in MIA, second only to NYC. KEF service may be out the door (or not, to be determined), yet two new carriers are coming to town this year. In the last decade, MIA's passenger count has grown by over 30%.

What anecadotes have been offered in support of the OP's argument have been limited and are easily countered. WW has a limited fleet and a limited availability to match equipment to capacity; this is as much about the realities of their growth as it is about MIA. Declines in EU-USA travel have been noted, but how this relates to MIA specifically has not yet been articulated.

Markets are driven by specific airlines and macro/global economic fundamentals as much as individual travel markets, and understanding this demands more data and thoughtful, contextual analysis.

jfk777 wrote:

KLM seems to be "haunted" in MIA.

LAX772LR wrote:

Jetty wrote:

clrd4t8koff wrote:

I’ve also read posts speculating KL is also struggling.

Quite a bit of speculation here, let's take a closer look at some recent KLM AMS-MIA flights.
KLM operates both the A332 (268 seats) and A333 (292 seats) in its fleet.
This Winter schedule the airline is predominatly placing its larger A333 on the AMS-MIA route.
In recent weeks only 1x flight has been operated by the smaller A332 aircraft.
The flight is not daily, as AMS-Florida is a leisure market and KLM offers multiple daily connections on DL/KL over ATL, DTW, JFK, BOS, etc.

26 Feb 2018 KL627 AMS - MIA 333
24 Feb 2018 KL627 AMS - MIA 333
22 Feb 2018 KL627 AMS - MIA 333
19 Feb 2018 KL627 AMS - MIA A333 PH-AKB
17 Feb 2018 KL627 AMS - MIA A333 PH-AKF
15 Feb 2018 KL627 AMS - MIA A332 PH-AOC
12 Feb 2018 KL627 AMS - MIA A333 PH-AKD

Anyone see a sign that KLM is struggling?

I also see no hard facts about Aer Lingus Dublin - Miami service struggling. The flight only started a few months back. I’m VERY curious to see these assertions backed up with actual data and facts.