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ADrum23
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WN and BA codeshare?

Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:29 am

In light of the most recent a.net debate about WN flying to Europe, it was said the only way realistically they could expand their network into Europe is through codesharing.

If WN begins to codeshare with foreign carriers (European or otherwise), BA would be a perfect partner. BA flies into almost every market WN has a major station/focus city in with the exception of SMF and STL (and BA could be adding the latter soon). Having a WN/BA codeshare would allow WN traffic to connect onto BA flights to Europe in smaller (non-international heavy) airports with a large WN presence such as BWI, PHX, AUS, BNA, and perhaps eventually STL. Thus, you could avoid connecting in the major (international heavy) airports such as LAX, ORD, JFK, etc. A WN/BA codeshare would also boost the loads/yields on these mid-sized market BA flights, thus making them more profitable than they would be simply on O&D traffic as they are now.

Of course, the AA/BA joint venture would be a obstacle to this happening, but it would be something to consider. AS codeshares with BA and they are an AA competitor (granted, they codeshare with AA, but even that is beginning to falter a bit). At some point, WN is going to have to figure out codeshares with international airlines, so this would be a nice place to start.
 
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stl07
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Re: WN and BA codeshare?

Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:14 am

Would be cool but I think with AS and AA they are covered in the continental US
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allegiantflyer
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Re: WN and BA codeshare?

Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:29 am

A BA codeshare seems like something WN would be interested in, but BA probably would not have the same interest. They seem satisfied with the AA network supporting their feed.
 
phljjs
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Re: WN and BA codeshare?

Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:31 am

I believe the WN Pilot contract has a Scope clause that prohibits codesharing. Don't expect the pilots to give that up anytime soon. If WN markets a flight, a WN pilot wants to fly it.
 
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Re: WN and BA codeshare?

Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:33 am

ADrum23 wrote:
At some point, WN is going to have to figure out codeshares with international airlines, so this would be a nice place to start.


They’ve got a long way to go, then, as they haven’t even figured out interline ticketing or baggage agreements yet. Those will have to come before even thinking about international codeshares.
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ADrum23
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Re: WN and BA codeshare?

Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:52 am

phljjs wrote:
I believe the WN Pilot contract has a Scope clause that prohibits codesharing. Don't expect the pilots to give that up anytime soon. If WN markets a flight, a WN pilot wants to fly it.


Even on potential overseas flights? WN isn’t going to fly to Europe anytime soon, so why would it matter?
 
ADrum23
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Re: WN and BA codeshare?

Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:56 am

allegiantflyer wrote:
A BA codeshare seems like something WN would be interested in, but BA probably would not have the same interest. They seem satisfied with the AA network supporting their feed.


But think of all the additional revenue that could come with access to all the mid sized airports with large WN stations outside of the big cities.
 
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Re: WN and BA codeshare?

Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:58 am

ADrum23 wrote:
allegiantflyer wrote:
A BA codeshare seems like something WN would be interested in, but BA probably would not have the same interest. They seem satisfied with the AA network supporting their feed.


But think of all the additional revenue that could come with access to all the mid sized airports with large WN stations outside of the big cities.


Doesn’t AA serve every one of those cities?
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phljjs
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Re: WN and BA codeshare?

Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:59 am

Pilots view codesharing as outsourcing. Their view is that if WN wants to sell tickets to Europe, Hawaii, Asia, etc, then WN needs to buy/ lease the planes that can handle that mission and let WN pilots fly the route.

It's the same reason why you don't see Mesa or Skywest flying 50 seat RJs with "Southwest Express" on the side. If WN sells/markets a flight, a WN pilot will be at the controls.
 
ADrum23
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Re: WN and BA codeshare?

Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:09 am

Cubsrule wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
allegiantflyer wrote:
A BA codeshare seems like something WN would be interested in, but BA probably would not have the same interest. They seem satisfied with the AA network supporting their feed.


But think of all the additional revenue that could come with access to all the mid sized airports with large WN stations outside of the big cities.


Doesn’t AA serve every one of those cities?


Yes, but the point is, they could sell even more connections with access to WN’s focus cities rather than routing everyone through ORD, DFW, JFK, etc.
Last edited by ADrum23 on Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
ADrum23
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Re: WN and BA codeshare?

Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:13 am

phljjs wrote:
Pilots view codesharing as outsourcing. Their view is that if WN wants to sell tickets to Europe, Hawaii, Asia, etc, then WN needs to buy/ lease the planes that can handle that mission and let WN pilots fly the route.

It's the same reason why you don't see Mesa or Skywest flying 50 seat RJs with "Southwest Express" on the side. If WN sells/markets a flight, a WN pilot will be at the controls.


Do they realize every other airline does it because it’s simply not plausable to fly everywhere? The lack of WN codeshares is handcuffing those who want onward international connections (which is more than you think).

And I don’t think that scope exists. I thought WN could do codeshare, it was just subject to pilot approval.
 
FlyHappy
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Re: WN and BA codeshare?

Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:57 am

Considering that WN got to be, by various measures, one of the largest AND most profitable carriers in the world, flying only narrowbodies in all-econonmy configuration, in worlds largest, most lucrative, most protected singular market........ why would they feel the need to cooperate with anyone?

Getting pax from Tulsa to Paris once isn't what makes WN money. Getting them to STL frequently does.

And what would be BA's motivation? Are their clientele actively clamoring to avoid the large AA hubs? Enough for them to care?
 
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Re: WN and BA codeshare?

Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:15 am

They would have to double or triple connect me to get me to an airport where BA flies. Remember that WN flies to lots of secondary airports that are smaller and don't have the long runways needed by widebodies for transoceanic flights. I could drive to IAH or AUS in less time than it would take to fly from my home airport to an airport that BA or othe foreign carriers also fly to.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: WN and BA codeshare?

Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:22 am

What is the value of this, other than some AvGeek fantasy concerning the unusual?

BA doesn't gain anything from this, as there's essentially nowhere of intercon value that WN flies to but AA doesn't.

And yes, WN is the largest domestic pax carrier, but that's more a factor of volume than destinations; which again is of decreased value to a longhaul operator.

Besides, all of the cities where WN has major ops (e.g. CHI, LAS, PHX, WAS, MCO, FLL, OAK, etc) BA itself already flies to.
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Midwestindy
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Re: WN and BA codeshare?

Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:13 am

ADrum23 wrote:
allegiantflyer wrote:
A BA codeshare seems like something WN would be interested in, but BA probably would not have the same interest. They seem satisfied with the AA network supporting their feed.


But think of all the additional revenue that could come with access to all the mid sized airports with large WN stations outside of the big cities.


Wait what? How would it be more profitable?
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PatrickZ80
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Re: WN and BA codeshare?

Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:52 am

It wouldn't be possible even if they wanted it. If I'm not mistaken, somewhere in the joint venture agreement between IAG and American Airlines it's written that American is the sole codeshare partner for IAG in the USA. There's no room for other codeshare agreements.

Sure Southwest could use a codeshare partner in Europe, but it cannot possibly be British Airways. It cannot be Iberia or Aer Lingus either as they're also part of IAG. Air France/KLM have a similar agreement with Delta so that's also not an option, and I believe the Lufthansa group exclusively codeshares with United.

Then what airlines remain for Southwest to codeshare with in Europe? Not a lot, the only one I can think of that makes sense is Norwegian. All other options are simply impossible.
 
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cougar15
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Re: WN and BA codeshare?

Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:02 am

Why do we always have these totally out of whack hypothetical threads? And before I get asked why I read it, well because I thought I had missed some (to me) unbelievable news that makes neither strategic nor simple business sense for both operators! I am sure the BA pax would love the song & dance on WN after a TATL flight........ :cry2:
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CarlosSi
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Re: WN and BA codeshare?

Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:37 am

Are their products comparable though? For one WN only offers one class, I’m not sure if that would be a turn off for business flyers who typically fly with many more frills and perks. It may benefit WN flyers to be able to connect long haul, but probably not so much those who fly OW since they can just connect via American to just about anywhere if the hub is big like DFW.
 
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Re: WN and BA codeshare?

Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:03 am

phljjs wrote:
I believe the WN Pilot contract has a Scope clause that prohibits codesharing. Don't expect the pilots to give that up anytime soon. If WN markets a flight, a WN pilot wants to fly it.

The current contract has a detailed section that allows for “far international” codeshare. So there is a way for WN to codeshare to Europe, Asia, South America. and Africa. However codeshare with a flag of convienance carrier is not allowed. That means there would be no codeshare with Norwegian.
 
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Re: WN and BA codeshare?

Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:53 pm

Has they ever codeshare with B6 yet?
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Re: WN and BA codeshare?

Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:41 pm

SQ789 wrote:
Has they ever codeshare with B6 yet?


Domestic destinations that are served by B6 but not by WN include ANC, BTV, ORD, DFW, DAB, HYA, MVY, ACK, JFK, SWF, SRQ, SAV, HPN, and ORH.

While WN isn't at ORD, DFW, and JFK, WN does serve MDW, DAL, and LGA. In addition, both MDW and DAL already have nonstop service to BOS, FLL, LAX, LGA, and MCO on WN.

A WN-B6 codeshare is unlikely to occur since WN already serves most of the destinations that B6 does.
 
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Re: WN and BA codeshare?

Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:47 pm

CarlosSi wrote:
Are their products comparable though? For one WN only offers one class, I’m not sure if that would be a turn off for business flyers who typically fly with many more frills and perks. It may benefit WN flyers to be able to connect long haul, but probably not so much those who fly OW since they can just connect via American to just about anywhere if the hub is big like DFW.
No. Economy on WN is better than economy on BA or AA domestic or intra European :D
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Re: WN and BA codeshare?

Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:33 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
CarlosSi wrote:
Are their products comparable though? For one WN only offers one class, I’m not sure if that would be a turn off for business flyers who typically fly with many more frills and perks. It may benefit WN flyers to be able to connect long haul, but probably not so much those who fly OW since they can just connect via American to just about anywhere if the hub is big like DFW.
No. Economy on WN is better than economy on BA or AA domestic or intra European :D


There is no basic economy on WN. The seats have about 32" pitch on the 738 or 31" on the 737, so they have more leg room than legacy carriers in economy. All tickets include up to 2 free 50 pound (23 Kg) bags and use of the overhead bins. I often will check my roll aboard bag, because the second checked bag is free. This makes connections easier, because I don't have carry so much carryon luggage.

The main perk for business travelers is that they get to board in the first groups. Because there is no assigned seating, the people in the earlier boarding groups will normally get the seats near the front of the plane and can deboard more quickly when arriving at the destination. They also might get a free alcoholic drink or snacks.
 
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Re: WN and BA codeshare?

Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:52 pm

WN is at DAL and MDW, but not at DFW and ORD. BA and AA are both at DFW and ORD, but not at DAL or MDW. WN operating out of different airports from AA and BA in the Chicago and Dallas markets is one factor that makes it difficult for WN to codeshare with BA.

The Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006 prohibits nonstop international service out of DAL, and in addition to that, AA, WN, the DFW International Airport Board, the City of Dallas, and the City of Fort Worth all agreed to restrict nonstop international service in the Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex to DFW International Airport.
 
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Re: WN and BA codeshare?

Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:01 pm

Southwest is a good airline for tourists to use once in the US if not immediately connecting from or to an international flight on another carrier. I just would not schedule a flight on WN on the same day as an international flight on another airline. Due to the really generous baggage allowance, people coming from overseas can bring lots of luggage with them with no additional baggage fees. Also I like not tying travel within the US to the international roundtrip ticket. If something gets messed up, it doesn't result in cancellation of the return ticket.
 
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Re: WN and BA codeshare?

Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:26 pm

jplatts wrote:
WN is at DAL and MDW, but not at DFW and ORD. BA and AA are both at DFW and ORD, but not at DAL or MDW. WN operating out of different airports from AA and BA in the Chicago and Dallas markets is one factor that makes it difficult for WN to codeshare with BA.

The Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006 prohibits nonstop international service out of DAL, and in addition to that, AA, WN, the DFW International Airport Board, the City of Dallas, and the City of Fort Worth all agreed to restrict nonstop international service in the Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex to DFW International Airport.


And HOU, LGA, etc. That's why I said earlier that I would need to double or triple connect in order to get from my home airport, CRP, to an airport where there are tansoceanic flights via WN.
 
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Re: WN and BA codeshare?

Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:36 pm

I actually think Norwegian or FI would be a better fit as a WN codeshare partner.
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Re: WN and BA codeshare?

Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:59 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
I actually think Norwegian or FI would be a better fit as a WN codeshare partner.



Our contract prohibits codeshare with any FOC (Flag of Convenience) carriers - so Norwegian is out. It also applies to any State owned carriers like Emirates.
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wenders825
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Re: WN and BA codeshare?

Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:14 pm

why is this a thread at all? BA are literally in a joint venture with AA and have a longstanding partnership with AS. WN would literally add nothing, and it’s not even possible in the first place.
 
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CarlosSi
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Re: WN and BA codeshare?

Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:20 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
CarlosSi wrote:
Are their products comparable though? For one WN only offers one class, I’m not sure if that would be a turn off for business flyers who typically fly with many more frills and perks. It may benefit WN flyers to be able to connect long haul, but probably not so much those who fly OW since they can just connect via American to just about anywhere if the hub is big like DFW.
No. Economy on WN is better than economy on BA or AA domestic or intra European :D

By far I have to say. Who else lets you change time and date of departure only paying fare difference (or given credit for booking cheaper flights), two free bags, plus a carryon and personal item for no extra charge, am I missing anything?

I guess the difference I was poking at was Southwest's lack of first and business class, but perhaps their only product is already pretty good anyways.
 
Galwayman
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Re: WN and BA codeshare?

Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:00 pm

WN passengers would get a real culture shock with BA’s crap economy service , cramped seating and nasty mixed fleet crews . Could damage the WN brand by association
 
PDX88
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Re: WN and BA codeshare?

Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:54 am

The WN fanboys are coming out in droves to toot their own horns on this thread. Yeesh.
 
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stl07
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Re: WN and BA codeshare?

Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:44 am

LAX772LR wrote:

Besides, all of the cities where WN has major ops (e.g. CHI, LAS, PHX, WAS, MCO, FLL, OAK, etc) BA itself already flies to.

+ BNA. And btw, thats the point. They already fly to many of the same cities so it would make a codeshare easy. Yes its a fantasy, but I'm missing the point of that statement.
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LAX772LR
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Re: WN and BA codeshare?

Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:15 am

stl07 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:

Besides, all of the cities where WN has major ops (e.g. CHI, LAS, PHX, WAS, MCO, FLL, OAK, etc) BA itself already flies to.

+ BNA. And btw, thats the point. They already fly to many of the same cities so it would make a codeshare easy.

Easy sure, but again, for what purpose? Where is WN going to send their pax from those markets where BA cannot already get them?

...nowhere.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
AirbusMDCFAN
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Re: WN and BA codeshare?

Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:46 am

SQ789 wrote:
Has they ever codeshare with B6 yet?



No but WN almost inked a codeshare/interline at 1 time with WestJet and Volaris or Interjet of Mexico, but the deal fell through at the last minute.
 
Andy33
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Re: WN and BA codeshare?

Mon Feb 19, 2018 7:33 am

LAX772LR wrote:
stl07 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:

Besides, all of the cities where WN has major ops (e.g. CHI, LAS, PHX, WAS, MCO, FLL, OAK, etc) BA itself already flies to.

+ BNA. And btw, thats the point. They already fly to many of the same cities so it would make a codeshare easy.

Easy sure, but again, for what purpose? Where is WN going to send their pax from those markets where BA cannot already get them?

...nowhere.


I agree. What precisely would be in it for BA to make them tear up their deals with AA and AS and get into bed with WN instead? Where are the destinations you can reach on WN's network that don't have non-stop flights on BA's own network, or one-stop connections across an AA hub? Where are the transhipped cargo volumes?
And many European travellers simply won't accept WN's free seating model as part of a longer journey - several European airlines copied WN because they thought it was more efficient, but the passenger backlash against free seating means that every single airline serving Europe now uses assigned seating. WN probably feels its system is highly successful and allows them to make fast turns, so changing it would damage their business, but it would damage BA's business if they partnered with an airline using it.
 
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Re: WN and BA codeshare?

Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:51 pm

wenders825 wrote:
why is this a thread at all? BA are literally in a joint venture with AA and have a longstanding partnership with AS. WN would literally add nothing, and it’s not even possible in the first place.


Wenders, you are right, but I guess that it is always a good thing for us A-netters to remind ourselves that many of us treat these forums as a place to indulge in airline fantasies, not unlike those enjoyed by fantasy football or fantasy baseball players. There's no harm done, and it can be fun, so long as one can endure the occasional "ARE YOU INSANE?!?!" -type flames. (I'm guilty, I admit to both fantasies and flames myself!)
"Tough times never last. Tough people do." - Dr. Robert H. Schuller
 
czek6
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Re: WN and BA codeshare?

Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:45 pm

AirbusMDCFAN wrote:
SQ789 wrote:
Has they ever codeshare with B6 yet?



No but WN almost inked a codeshare/interline at 1 time with WestJet and Volaris or Interjet of Mexico, but the deal fell through at the last minute.



Southwest did have a codeshare with Volaris that was somehow cobbled together. It basically fell apart when Southwest bought AirTran and started their own flights to Mexico.

Southwest also had codeshares with AirTran and ATA.

The announced, but never started, codeshare with Westjet was entirely cancelled because of Southwest’s terrible reservation and IT systems. It was continuously delayed by Southwest and Westjet basically said screw it, hello Delta.

FYI, I believe the cargo/freight interline between Southwest and Westjet was never cancelled and remains in place.
 
solution
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Re: WN and BA codeshare?

Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:48 am

The IT situation is another one of the many (many, many, many...) reasons this would never happen. Southwest not only has a very unique IT and reservation system, but their corporate culture wants them to build on it, and they really don't like third party bookings anyway. BA will get a lot of its business through search and the like; WN keeps it in-house. It just isn't a cultural fit, and that's on top of the many other reasons.
 
ADrum23
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Re: WN and BA codeshare?

Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:25 am

SkyVoice wrote:
wenders825 wrote:
why is this a thread at all? BA are literally in a joint venture with AA and have a longstanding partnership with AS. WN would literally add nothing, and it’s not even possible in the first place.


Wenders, you are right, but I guess that it is always a good thing for us A-netters to remind ourselves that many of us treat these forums as a place to indulge in airline fantasies, not unlike those enjoyed by fantasy football or fantasy baseball players. There's no harm done, and it can be fun, so long as one can endure the occasional "ARE YOU INSANE?!?!" -type flames. (I'm guilty, I admit to both fantasies and flames myself!)


Frankly, I wish there was a fictional section on this forum where users can go and post these fictional/hypothetical threads (like this one), and the threads would only be visible to those logged in.

The AARoads forum (a forum for road/highway geeks which I am also a member of) has something just like that. A.net ought to consider something like that (I hope the mods are reading this).
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: WN and BA codeshare?

Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:59 am

ADrum23 wrote:
SkyVoice wrote:
Wenders, you are right, but I guess that it is always a good thing for us A-netters to remind ourselves that many of us treat these forums as a place to indulge in airline fantasies, not unlike those enjoyed by fantasy football or fantasy baseball players. There's no harm done, and it can be fun, so long as one can endure the occasional "ARE YOU INSANE?!?!" -type flames. (I'm guilty, I admit to both fantasies and flames myself!)

Frankly, I wish there was a fictional section on this forum where users can go and post these fictional/hypothetical threads (like this one)

:checkmark: :checkmark: ^This
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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Rookie87
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Re: WN and BA codeshare?

Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:21 pm

solution wrote:
The IT situation is another one of the many (many, many, many...) reasons this would never happen. Southwest not only has a very unique IT and reservation system, but their corporate culture wants them to build on it, and they really don't like third party bookings anyway. BA will get a lot of its business through search and the like; WN keeps it in-house. It just isn't a cultural fit, and that's on top of the many other reasons.


I’ve read about WN having IT issues regarding res and such. Is it due to these IT issues that they “can’t” charge for bags, avoid headaches over rebooking fees or is it a choice unrelated to lack of technology to implement these fees like everyone else can/does??
I just learned a lot about WN on this thread. Didn’t know about the pilots granting the company permission to codeshare and such.
 
solution
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Re: WN and BA codeshare?

Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:25 am

Rookie87 wrote:
solution wrote:
The IT situation is another one of the many (many, many, many...) reasons this would never happen. Southwest not only has a very unique IT and reservation system, but their corporate culture wants them to build on it, and they really don't like third party bookings anyway. BA will get a lot of its business through search and the like; WN keeps it in-house. It just isn't a cultural fit, and that's on top of the many other reasons.


I’ve read about WN having IT issues regarding res and such. Is it due to these IT issues that they “can’t” charge for bags, avoid headaches over rebooking fees or is it a choice unrelated to lack of technology to implement these fees like everyone else can/does??
I just learned a lot about WN on this thread. Didn’t know about the pilots granting the company permission to codeshare and such.


The free-rebooking fee is such a huge part of their marketing and reputation that I don't think they'll change that anytime soon, given that they remain healthily profitable even without it. Compared to some of their IT issues it would be absolutely trivial for them to add a flat-fee charge, even a low one, but they choose not to.

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