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cpd
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Re: Lufthansa Lockheed Super Star Restoration Project

Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:34 am

conaly wrote:
Some bad news came in: http://www.aero.de/news-28784/Lufthansa ... hland.html (German)

Short summary: Lufthansa plans to relocate the Superstar to Germany and continue the restoration here. For that reason the wings have to be removed. It's uncertain, whether the plane can be brought back into the air afterwards, as the wings were not designed to be removed after assembly. There are even some speculations, that the Lufthansa concern is planning to stop the project, as the costs have already exceeded 200 million Euro and the money is coming directly from the mainline, while LH Technik is only the contractor.

As we know Lufthansa CEO Carsten Spohr is a penny pincher who loves to please the shareholders at all costs, I believe the project is currently on the verge of being abandoned. To bad, would have loved to have a ride on the Superstar.


Do those sponsors then get their money back:

http://superstar.lufthansa.com/en/sponsors.html

Or have they just thrown away a whole heap of money at a dead end project. In my view, it is a bad look for those sponsors to be associated with a failed project such as this one. I'm sure there are other operations with far less of a grand name who could get this thing going again.

mxaxai wrote:
It seems to be a very recent development seeing how they only posted a status update last December and again in February. But I guess if they found something that prohibits a restoration to a flyable condition, it is "better" to have the plane sit in Germany than in the US. The installation of the gear was planned for end of Q1.


This doesn't fit with all the talk of heavy modernisation of the plane in terms of systems and fuselage components that was mentioned earlier in this topic (from the project webpage):
As we leave nothing to chance, about 95 percent of the fuselage structure and approximately 85 percent of the wings have been replaced by new, state of the art material.
 
WIederling
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Re: Lufthansa Lockheed Super Star Restoration Project

Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:17 am

cpd wrote:
Do those sponsors then get their money back:

http://superstar.lufthansa.com/en/sponsors.html


If they can litigate the sh#t out of the subcontractors in Alabama?
Murphy is an optimist
 
boeing767300
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Re: Lufthansa Lockheed Super Star Restoration Project

Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:07 am

When LH first purchased the aircraft perhaps it would have been a better option to ferry the aircraft to Germany and restore it there. Undertaking a project of that magnitude so far from home base must have been very costly and time consuming. Whatever the cost one can only congratulate Lufthansa for attempting to put a 1649 back in the air.
 
ikramerica
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Re: Lufthansa Lockheed Super Star Restoration Project

Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:28 pm

Considering up to 95% of the plane was newly fabricated including modern material substitution and modern components, this was hardly a restoration but instead a shameful scrapping of 3 aircraft in order to try to build a replica. Now that it’s dead the result is losing 1 or 2 that could have been museum pieces and having one left that’s a replica museum piece.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
boeing767300
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Re: Lufthansa Lockheed Super Star Restoration Project

Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:45 pm

You make a very good point as 1649s are not exactly plentiful. That said one aircraft will leave Auburn and be on display at the new TWA hotel in JFK. Not sure if the entire aircraft will be moved there but hopefully it will. There is already a forum open on that topic.
 
Utah744
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Re: Lufthansa Lockheed Super Star Restoration Project

Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:13 pm

I consider myself lucky to have flown the Navy P-2 Neptune. Not because it was a great plane but because it had the 3350 engines. It made me feel like a more complete pilot. What a monster of an engine. The navy had a 3350 with 1/4 cut out of it so you could watch it as the engine turned by an electric motor very slowly. It was just amazing watching parts moving and try to imagine them moving at over 2000 rpm. I just had over 200 hours in P-2s and the only failure was a Power Recovery Turbine (PRT) explode on takeoff at NAS Barber's Point Hawaii. Boom, Fire Warning Light, Abort. Glad it wasn't in the air.
You are never too old to learn something stupid
 
cpd
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Re: Lufthansa Lockheed Super Star Restoration Project

Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:17 pm

ikramerica wrote:
Considering up to 95% of the plane was newly fabricated including modern material substitution and modern components, this was hardly a restoration but instead a shameful scrapping of 3 aircraft in order to try to build a replica. Now that it’s dead the result is losing 1 or 2 that could have been museum pieces and having one left that’s a replica museum piece.


I'm with you on that. Shameful of Lufthansa to do that and then kill the project. How inept are they!
 
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NWAROOSTER
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Re: Lufthansa Lockheed Super Star Restoration Project

Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:03 pm

Channex757 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
stratocruiser wrote:
There is also the fact that its Wright R-3350 Turbo Compound engines are arguably the most complex piston engines ever installed on an airliner and were a bit of a maintenance headache even for the experienced and skilled engineers of the piston era.


How does the spare parts market look for these engines?

Probably better than you might think. A large number of these engines were produced for differing applications, and as aircraft were retired and broken up then engines would have been put into deep storage by specialist salvage companies for later use in things such as air racing or industrial adaptation. They certainly would not have been scrapped if there was a decent amount of life left in the motor.

In warehouses across the USA there is probably a viable supply of this magnificent if a bit cranky at times engine, all preserved under speciality oils and greases and slumbering next to Merlins and other legendary piston engines.

If I am not mistaken there are couple of spark plugs that are extremely difficult to replace due to the work required to access them. Also these engines are maintenance hogs requiring intensive routine maintenance and and short time on the wing as overhauls must done with low operating times. I do not remember the hours at which the engine needed an overhaul. Piston engines did not stay on the wing long hours.
Luithansa has too much money invested in this aircraft to totally abandon its restoration, if only as a static display aircraft. :old:
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
cpd
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Re: Lufthansa Lockheed Super Star Restoration Project

Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:19 am

NWAROOSTER wrote:
Channex757 wrote:
WIederling wrote:

How does the spare parts market look for these engines?

Probably better than you might think. A large number of these engines were produced for differing applications, and as aircraft were retired and broken up then engines would have been put into deep storage by specialist salvage companies for later use in things such as air racing or industrial adaptation. They certainly would not have been scrapped if there was a decent amount of life left in the motor.

In warehouses across the USA there is probably a viable supply of this magnificent if a bit cranky at times engine, all preserved under speciality oils and greases and slumbering next to Merlins and other legendary piston engines.

If I am not mistaken there are couple of spark plugs that are extremely difficult to replace due to the work required to access them. Also these engines are maintenance hogs requiring intensive routine maintenance and and short time on the wing as overhauls must done with low operating times. I do not remember the hours at which the engine needed an overhaul. Piston engines did not stay on the wing long hours.
Luithansa has too much money invested in this aircraft to totally abandon its restoration, if only as a static display aircraft. :old:


LH Technik designing interiors for it, work on slide rafts, fabricating new versions of old parts. It's like was Porsche Classic might do for vintage Porsche sports cars from the 50s and 60s,, only this is a complicated aircraft with demanding certification requirements. I can't believe they'll just throw all that away now. At least finish it off properly and get it flying and try to have it make money for itself. Or otherwise close down the project immediately and donate the unfinished plane to fire services as a fire trainer and forget the whole sorry saga ever happened.
 
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NWAROOSTER
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Re: Lufthansa Lockheed Super Star Restoration Project

Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:07 am

Luthansa WILL finish the restoration of this aircraft. It is just that they did NOT plan that it would take as long as it is taking to complete. LH Technik most likely has decided that finishing this restoration would better to do in Germany where they have better control of it's completion rather than have the aircraft in the State of Maine across the Atlantic Ocean from Germany. :old:
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
columba
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Re: Lufthansa Lockheed Super Star Restoration Project

Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:00 am

@nwarooster
As they have to take off the wings in order to ship it to Germany it is likely that it will never be able to fly again......
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
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CARST
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Re: Lufthansa Lockheed Super Star Restoration Project

Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:36 am

columba wrote:
@nwarooster
As they have to take off the wings in order to ship it to Germany it is likely that it will never be able to fly again......


It's not that big, the could put it on a barge and ship it to Hamburg without taking off the wings I guess...
 
columba
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Re: Lufthansa Lockheed Super Star Restoration Project

Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:20 am

CARST wrote:
columba wrote:
@nwarooster
As they have to take off the wings in order to ship it to Germany it is likely that it will never be able to fly again......


It's not that big, the could put it on a barge and ship it to Hamburg without taking off the wings I guess...

It is said on various articles that they will take off the wings and therefore it is uncertain if it ever will be able to fly again
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
PanHAM
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Re: Lufthansa Lockheed Super Star Restoration Project

Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:26 am

The Problem is, how to get her to the barge in one piece. Auburn Airport is some distance from the water and even if shipped to Hamburg on a suitable vessel, offloading her at XFW would not be that easy either and she would be stuck there unless LHT manages to get her flyable.
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PanHAM
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Re: Lufthansa Lockheed Super Star Restoration Project

Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:41 am

PanHAM wrote:
The Problem is, how to get her to the barge in one piece. Auburn Airport is some distance from the water and even if shipped to Hamburg on a suitable vessel, offloading her at XFW would not be that easy either and she would be stuck there unless LHT manages to get her flyable.


The span is 45,70 meters, that should be viable as deck load, properly packed and sealed against sea water, but then how to get her to and from the water. If they are really that short from making her flyable again may be a short hop could be authorized. But that is wild guessing
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
Silverstreak
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Re: Lufthansa Lockheed Super Star Restoration Project

Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:24 am

Every effort must be made to safe aircraft like the Starlifter. I applaud Lufthansa for taking up this challenge. I've seen great airplanes all over the world eventually sent to the crusher. The worst incident? The beautiful Aeroflot Tu-114 located at the entrance to Domodedovo Airport at Moscow - sent to the crusher! It was a majestic monument to Russian aircraft that should have been saved. A tragic loss for sure.
 
WIederling
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Re: Lufthansa Lockheed Super Star Restoration Project

Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:33 am

cpd wrote:
I'm with you on that. Shameful of Lufthansa to do that and then kill the project. How inept are they!


From afar it looks like the boys at Auburn couldn't jump.
capabilities overstated?
Murphy is an optimist
 
KLDC10
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Re: Lufthansa Lockheed Super Star Restoration Project

Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:40 am

WIederling wrote:
From afar it looks like the boys at Auburn couldn't jump.
capabilities overstated?


It sounds like there is blame to be shared. It's quite possible that Auburn overstated their capabilities, but perhaps there was also a lack of due diligence on the part of those awarding the contract. Either way, the outcome is less than ideal. Hopefully salvageable, but we'll have to wait and see what Lufthansa can come up with.
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WIederling
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Re: Lufthansa Lockheed Super Star Restoration Project

Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:01 pm

KLDC10 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
From afar it looks like the boys at Auburn couldn't jump.
capabilities overstated?


It sounds like there is blame to be shared. It's quite possible that Auburn overstated their capabilities, but perhaps there was also a lack of due diligence on the part of those awarding the contract. Either way, the outcome is less than ideal. Hopefully salvageable, but we'll have to wait and see what Lufthansa can come up with.

Yup. lack of qualified supervision falls back on LH. ..
Murphy is an optimist
 
RJWNL
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Re: Lufthansa Lockheed Super Star Restoration Project

Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:47 pm

Another German project failing miserably, just like the Berlin airport and Volkswagen cars. Throwing lots of money at it or cheating can only get you so far in the real world. "Wir schaffen das (nicht)"
 
columba
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Re: Lufthansa Lockheed Super Star Restoration Project

Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:44 am

According to another forum the project is cancelled - source Lufthansa Intranet
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
RalXWB
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Re: Lufthansa Lockheed Super Star Restoration Project

Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:17 am

Is there a possibility to restore the Super Constellation at Munich Visitor Park to flying condition?
 
cpd
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Re: Lufthansa Lockheed Super Star Restoration Project

Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:16 am

columba wrote:
According to another forum the project is cancelled - source Lufthansa Intranet


Well, I guess that's it then. They might as well kill the public facing website.

If I seem disappointed, then yes, I am. It really looked promising. It's a shame it won't make it.
 
giblets
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Re: Lufthansa Lockheed Super Star Restoration Project

Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:23 am

Will be interesting to see when this is finally completed, I went round the Connie at the Munich Aviation park (you can go on board (it's free) and it's quite an experience! The also have a Ju-52 you can go onboard, a nice little trip if you have a couple of hours layover (or before a flight in my case!)
146, ATR72, Q400, Saab 340, PA-46 Jetprop, Jetstream, E175/195, 707/727/737/747/757/767/777, DC-3/9/10, MD-11/80, A300/310/319/320/321/330/340/350/380 Tristar, BAC 1-11, Trident, Chipmunk, Bell 206/222, Chinook, Puma, Cessna 172, Fokker 70, 100, SRN4!
 
columba
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Re: Lufthansa Lockheed Super Star Restoration Project

Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:26 am

There is an online petition that demands to complete the restoration:

https://www.change.org/p/support-this-p ... e_petition
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
aw70
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Re: Lufthansa Lockheed Super Star Restoration Project

Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:06 am

Silverstreak wrote:
Every effort must be made to safe aircraft like the Starlifter. I applaud Lufthansa for taking up this challenge. I've seen great airplanes all over the world eventually sent to the crusher. The worst incident? The beautiful Aeroflot Tu-114 located at the entrance to Domodedovo Airport at Moscow - sent to the crusher! It was a majestic monument to Russian aircraft that should have been saved. A tragic loss for sure.


Destroying that Tu-114 was an act of barbarism.
 
FW200
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Re: Lufthansa Lockheed Super Star Restoration Project

Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:31 pm

NWAROOSTER wrote:
Also these engines are maintenance hogs requiring intensive routine maintenance and and short time on the wing as overhauls must done with low operating times. I do not remember the hours at which the engine needed an overhaul. Piston engines did not stay on the wing long hours.


I fully agree. Extremely sophisticated engine-technology which makes it extremely costly to operate such a plane in today's conditions, lacking the know-how and the experience of the skilled technicians familiar with those engines.

What a incredible waste of money - 200 Mio. $!

What could have been done with such an amount of money for the restauration of the FW 200 Condor:

https://www.dlbs.de/en/Projects/Focke-Wulf-Condor/index.php

http://doblinger-reportage.de/bergung-fw-200.html

http://www.fzt.haw-hamburg.de/pers/Scholz/dglr/hh/text_2008_03_13_Fw200_Restauration_Teil2.pdf

http://www.fzt.haw-hamburg.de/pers/Scholz/dglr/hh/text_2008_03_13_Fw200_Restauration_Teil1.pdf
 
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anfromme
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Re: Lufthansa Lockheed Super Star Restoration Project

Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:21 pm

WIederling wrote:
Maybe they were "played"? The Me262 replica project shew that it can't be general incompetence. But the Me262 also had local interests.
Spending $200m on an uncertain outcome doesn't really sound like LH kind of spending.

It doesn't indeed.
I think that there was a lot of good will for the project in LH and they considered it an engineering challenge that they wanted to master - not least because of the image that Lufthansa Technik has of itself.
But really, at some point - 200m and ten years into a programme that was supposed to take five at worst, with still no end in sight - reality has to set in.
There is still so much to do to get the plane back in the air - integration of modern avionics, old engines, control surfaces, etc., to not mention certification - that I can easily see another 100-150m and 5-7 years going into this.
Reading their annual Connie Chronicle, the amount of work and reverse-engineering still required (and the level at which it's required) in 2017 is mind-boggling.
I would have loved to see this happen (and fly on it), but seriously... this seems like a lost cause.

WIederling wrote:
Unintended release of the fire protection foam system probably didn't help either.

It probably didn't.
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Pilawt
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Re: Lufthansa Lockheed Super Star Restoration Project

Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:34 pm

 
KLDC10
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Re: Lufthansa Lockheed Super Star Restoration Project

Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:43 pm

Pilawt wrote:


I'd be a bit more careful if I were him, given German laws on public defamation.
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anfromme
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Re: Lufthansa Lockheed Super Star Restoration Project

Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:03 pm

KLDC10 wrote:
Pilawt wrote:


I'd be a bit more careful if I were him, given German laws on public defamation.


Meh - Germany has free speech laws as well, and with what he's written he's being harsh but well within his rights under German law.
Also, himself and his blog being US-based, German law wouldn't really be applicable to begin with I believe.
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KLDC10
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Re: Lufthansa Lockheed Super Star Restoration Project

Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:54 pm

anfromme wrote:
Meh - Germany has free speech laws as well, and with what he's written he's being harsh but well within his rights under German law.
Also, himself and his blog being US-based, German law wouldn't really be applicable to begin with I believe.


It's an odd law. Sometimes it is enforced, sometimes it isn't. It really depends if someone complains, because of course the police don't have time to go around checking if people might have been defamed. But as far as I know, the law applies to anything which is disseminated/available to view in Germany.

If you ever browse a German Newspaper, they often use a form of the language called "Konjunktiv I" to describe allegations in order to avoid potential allegations of defamation. E.g. "Der Polizist sagte, Hans X sei ein gefährlicher Mann." Instead of "Der Polizist sagte, Hans X ist ein gefährlicher Mann." In English, we would just say "The Policeman said that Hans X is a dangerous man", but in German the "sei" form is more akin to "is apparently" or "is alleged to be". It is not a statement of certainty.
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N14AZ
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Re: Lufthansa Lockheed Super Star Restoration Project

Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:54 pm

Can anyone explain for what they spent 200 million $? All I see is an incomplete fuselage. It’s hard to imagine where they spent the 200 million $...
 
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scbriml
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Re: Lufthansa Lockheed Super Star Restoration Project

Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:04 pm

aw70 wrote:
Silverstreak wrote:
Every effort must be made to safe aircraft like the Starlifter. I applaud Lufthansa for taking up this challenge. I've seen great airplanes all over the world eventually sent to the crusher. The worst incident? The beautiful Aeroflot Tu-114 located at the entrance to Domodedovo Airport at Moscow - sent to the crusher! It was a majestic monument to Russian aircraft that should have been saved. A tragic loss for sure.


Destroying that Tu-114 was an act of barbarism.


It was, so glad I saw it before it went.


The one at VKO also got the chop. Very sad.
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anfromme
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Re: Lufthansa Lockheed Super Star Restoration Project

Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:04 pm

KLDC10 wrote:
anfromme wrote:
Meh - Germany has free speech laws as well, and with what he's written he's being harsh but well within his rights under German law.
Also, himself and his blog being US-based, German law wouldn't really be applicable to begin with I believe.


If you ever browse a German Newspaper, they often use a form of the language called "Konjunktiv I" to describe allegations in order to avoid potential allegations of defamation. E.g. "Der Polizist sagte, Hans X sei ein gefährlicher Mann." Instead of "Der Polizist sagte, Hans X ist ein gefährlicher Mann."


You'll read the former because it's the gramatically correct form.
You're confusing the Konjunktiv with indirect speech.
Grammatically, the first version you posted ("...sei...") is the only way to correctly quote somebody indirectly. Your second version is doubly wrong - firstly, because "sagte" is past tense and "ist" is present.. Secondly, because when you don't quote somebody directly, you have to shift the verb to subjunctive mode - which just so happens to also be employed in the Konjunktiv, but it isn't necessarily identical with it.
Funnily enough, if you just added additional quotes to your sentence, making it a direct quote, it would have been perfectly fine, and perfectly printable - except it just reads a bit... clunky:
"Der Polizist sagte: 'Hans X ist ein gefährlicher Mann.' "

Lastly, "dangerous" is an assessment anyway, i.e. an opinion, which is hard to sue against, and there are all sorts of nonsense being written about this or that person being dangerous, all protected by free speech, in whatever grammatical form.

Lastly, by German law, it's usually not the person (or newspaper) doing the quoting that would be subject to legal action, but the person who made the actual statement in question.

In short: When you read "Der Polizist sagte, Hans X sei ein gefährlicher Mann." it has everything to do with German grammar laws, and nothing whatsoever with German law.

You can find more about German indirect speech here (explanations in English, examples obviously in German):
https://deutsch.lingolia.com/en/grammar ... ect-speech

Back on topic:
N14AZ wrote:
Can anyone explain for what they spent 200 million $? All I see is an incomplete fuselage. It’s hard to imagine where they spent the 200 million $...

Well, according to one of the project leads in 2016, they had to re-manufacture 95% of the fuselage.
https://www.airspacemag.com/history-of- ... 180960064/
They had little documentation, had to develop test rigs and procedures for pretty much everything... And some of the remanufacturing involved molecular analysis of the existing parts in order to get all the properties right... Remember the objective was to not just get her back in the air, but certified for pax travel.
The latest official annual chronicle published by the project gives you an idea what the money was spent on and just how much work was required:
http://www.conniesurvivors.com/Lufthans ... 202017.pdf

I agree with your statement "All I see is an incomplete fuselage", by the way, and I cannot stress this enough, as some people - Leeham and Conniesurvivors, among others - now say "hey, this close to the finishing line...". It's absolutely not close to the finishing line. No cockpit equipment, no gear, no engines, no integration of old and new technology e.g. for avionics and engine control/monitoring, no control surfaces… And then there was the foam incident earlier this year, which surely didn't help.

I just watched a documentary about the Flying Bulls DC-6 that was restored a few years ago (shorter English version here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4PlcKf-XRw). That was in flyable condition when bought and on closer inspection required a lot of work, with the restoration taking over 4 years. This gives you an idea of what's involved in a restoration project like this. It doesn't really mention money, but when you look at the work undertaken, you can basically imagine the $ counter going up.
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cpd
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Re: Lufthansa Lockheed Super Star Restoration Project

Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:11 pm

KLDC10 wrote:
Pilawt wrote:


I'd be a bit more careful if I were him, given German laws on public defamation.


I don't think that is defamation. Otherwise it'd be impossible to report anything negative about any organisation. What this is expressing is the general mood of disgust at how this project has seemingly gone off the rails.
 
Noshow
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Re: Lufthansa Lockheed Super Star Restoration Project

Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:49 am

I think it is a little unfair to Lufthansa who have spent so much of their money on the project. They just got carried away. Technically they would be capable to have done it but the costs just skyrocketed beyound anything. Triple digit million dollars. No surprise: New cockpit and cabin, commercial passenger transport capable, four complicated engines brought to top quality again. The project was overambitious given that they are working for profits. How could LH have operated it? Transatlantic? Some piston-oldie-quad?
CEO Spohr just had the balls to stop what others should have stopped before him.

I hope the airframe will be stored in a way that it could be made airworthy in the future if somebody should fund another try. I understand people feeling bitter about it now but at least they have tried this whole venture.
 
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Wurgerwulf
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Re: Lufthansa Lockheed Super Star Restoration Project

Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:40 pm

From a friend (who requests their name not be used) working on the project from the very beginning and the comment below in correspondence.

“We involved in the effort who have worked on this project for almost 10 years are all beside ourselves with frustration and sadness at this utterly asinine decision. I can tell you for certain ***** the Starliner’s “remanufacturing” was just over 90% complete and no more than 15 months from flying, inspite of what others may have alluded too! She would have been a state of the art shining example and the last of her kind to take to the air. The decision now to dismantle and transport was completely counter to the original plan to complete her mechanically, obtain airworthy status here and then fly her to Germany for final outfitting of her interior components. I must tell you ***** I am heartbroken as she was already better than the day she rolled of the assembly line all those years ago.. Such a waste. All the best to you and yours my friend”…
 
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anfromme
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Re: Lufthansa Lockheed Super Star Restoration Project

Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:14 pm

Noshow wrote:
I think it is a little unfair to Lufthansa who have spent so much of their money on the project. They just got carried away. Technically they would be capable to have done it but the costs just skyrocketed beyound anything. Triple digit million dollars. No surprise: New cockpit and cabin, commercial passenger transport capable, four complicated engines brought to top quality again. The project was overambitious given that they are working for profits. How could LH have operated it? Transatlantic? Some piston-oldie-quad?
CEO Spohr just had the balls to stop what others should have stopped before him.


Fully agree.

Wurgerwulf wrote:
From a friend (who requests their name not be used) working on the project from the very beginning and the comment below in correspondence.

“We involved in the effort who have worked on this project for almost 10 years are all beside ourselves with frustration and sadness at this utterly asinine decision. I can tell you for certain ***** the Starliner’s “remanufacturing” was just over 90% complete and no more than 15 months from flying, inspite of what others may have alluded too! She would have been a state of the art shining example and the last of her kind to take to the air. The decision now to dismantle and transport was completely counter to the original plan to complete her mechanically, obtain airworthy status here and then fly her to Germany for final outfitting of her interior components. I must tell you ***** I am heartbroken as she was already better than the day she rolled of the assembly line all those years ago.. Such a waste. All the best to you and yours my friend”…


As said before, I have no inside knowledge of the restoration, but looking at the latest available photos, I only believe that the fuselage was 90% done. The whole aircraft, no way. And I'd definitely take the 15 months figure with a grain of salt - back in 2016, we were told that she'd be ready to fly in 2018 at the latest. In 2012, it was 2014.
But see my previous post as to where we are now and how much still has to be dine. But assuming it was finished now, with another, say $100m spent. Then what? You'd have a top-notch historic plane that's one of a kind with rather complicated engines and which cost you about as much as a new-built A350-900 at list price.
I'm sure everybody expected this to go much more smoothly (and quickly) than it did, and fair dues to everybody for not throwing in the towel way sooner. But the whole exercise seems a bit frivolous now, not just by, by especially by LH's standards.

That said, I'd of course also be heartbroken if I had been involved in the project.
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Re: Lufthansa Lockheed Super Star Restoration Project

Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:41 pm

conaly wrote:
Some bad news came in: http://www.aero.de/news-28784/Lufthansa ... hland.html (German)

Short summary: Lufthansa plans to relocate the Superstar to Germany and continue the restoration here. For that reason the wings have to be removed. It's uncertain, whether the plane can be brought back into the air afterwards, as the wings were not designed to be removed after assembly.


columba wrote:
@nwarooster
As they have to take off the wings in order to ship it to Germany it is likely that it will never be able to fly again......


Hm, when reading the article linked below, I as a non-expert wonder, if it is really impossible to get her in the air again after once having removed the wings. Does anybody know, whether the work described in the above mentioned article could be done without removing the wings from the fuselage?

»it was determined in June 2015 that the main frames attaching the wing to the fuselage would have to be replaced. The main frames are located in front and behind the wing and are critical as they transfer the flight loads from the wing to the fuselage. It was originally thought that they could be repaired but corrosion and drill holes made this impossible and new main frames had to be designed and fabricated. Guido Piette of Lufthansa Technik Hamburg led the team that performed the installation of the new main frames. This team was also responsible for the complex installation of the wing-to-body fittings.«
http://www.conniesurvivors.com/1-luftha ... e-2016.htm
 
texl1649
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Re: Lufthansa Lockheed Super Star Restoration Project

Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:25 pm

Has anything happened in 4 months with this aircraft? I would think some news should have been available, at least in Germany.
 
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SEPilot
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Re: Lufthansa Lockheed Super Star Restoration Project

Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:20 pm

Pilawt wrote:

The article srates that when the order was given to remove the wings it was also ordered that no notes be taken. This means that the logbooks cannot be properly filled out, which means that it can never legally fly again. This clearly was deliberate. There have been planes that have been scrapped that were perfectly flyable but had missing or incomplete logbooks.

But sad as we all are to see this end, after spending such an inordinate amount of money with much more still to go it gets extremely hard to justify. I cannot blame LH for pulling the plug. By the time it was done, had they completed it, it is likely they would have been able to buy 2 A350s for the money they had in it. That is very hard to justify. And that is not taking into account the money it would take on a continuous basis to fly and maintain it.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
cpd
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Re: Lufthansa Lockheed Super Star Restoration Project

Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:16 pm

SEPilot wrote:
Pilawt wrote:

The article srates that when the order was given to remove the wings it was also ordered that no notes be taken. This means that the logbooks cannot be properly filled out, which means that it can never legally fly again. This clearly was deliberate. There have been planes that have been scrapped that were perfectly flyable but had missing or incomplete logbooks.

But sad as we all are to see this end, after spending such an inordinate amount of money with much more still to go it gets extremely hard to justify. I cannot blame LH for pulling the plug. By the time it was done, had they completed it, it is likely they would have been able to buy 2 A350s for the money they had in it. That is very hard to justify. And that is not taking into account the money it would take on a continuous basis to fly and maintain it.


I'm going to suggest they use it for fire training or donate it as a target on a weapons testing range. It would be better than this end!
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: Lufthansa Lockheed Super Star Restoration Project

Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:27 am

I understand running out of money/willingness. That's all fair.

But, I do not understand deliberate destruction, taking off wings, demanding that no notes be taken, etc (if the reports are true). That is sabotage, a crime against historical artefacts.

If you can't proceed, at least do not destroy what you have.
 
redcap1962
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Re: Lufthansa Lockheed Super Star Restoration Project

Sat Dec 01, 2018 8:18 am

I cannot write here what my opinion is of guys like Mr. Spohr. It would violate the forum rules. :gnasher:
This is your pilot speaking. Welcome to flight one from here to there. We'll be flying at a height of ten feet, going up to twelve and a half feet if we see anything big. My copilot today is a flask of coffee.

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WIederling
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Re: Lufthansa Lockheed Super Star Restoration Project

Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:27 pm

redcap1962 wrote:
I cannot write here what my opinion is of guys like Mr. Spohr. It would violate the forum rules. :gnasher:

You may have to expand your ire to the company/people working on the Super Star in the US.
Did they act in good faith or was it a perfect path to suck a bunch of Euros dry?
Murphy is an optimist
 
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scbriml
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Re: Lufthansa Lockheed Super Star Restoration Project

Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:38 pm

redcap1962 wrote:
I cannot write here what my opinion is of guys like Mr. Spohr. It would violate the forum rules. :gnasher:


His responsibility is to Lufthansa's shareholders, not a bunch of plane nuts.

I say that as someone who thinks the Connie is simply the most beautiful thing to ever take to the skies. I would have loved to see this flying again. Sadly, it sounds like it will never happen now.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
PanHAM
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Re: Lufthansa Lockheed Super Star Restoration Project

Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:57 pm

Same as many here I am sad that this beautiful plane will never fly again, But for Mr. Spohr and the board members it was sinply no other choice.

Once ot became obvious that this was no longer a commercially viable undertaking they had to Close the Project.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!

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