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yeogeo
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Fines for Bag-Carriers in Emergency Evacuations?

Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:30 pm

“Apparently the threat of death by incineration fueled by thousands of gallons of jet fuel isn’t enough of a deterrent to stop passengers from taking time to grab carry-on bags during an emergency evacuation.” Sara Nelson, Association of Flight Attendants

https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/ohare ... acuations/

Ms Nelson also said that “The FAA should use existing laws to crack down on passengers endangering themselves and countless others as they put computers, cosmetics and clothing ahead of human life.”
An un-named FA suggested further fines, per the article.

yeo
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Fines for Bag-Carriers in Emergency Evacuations?

Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:18 am

Fines, possible imprisonment (as in other situations in life when your deliberate actions threaten human life) and, of course, a place on a global (all we a.netters wish there was one, don't we?) no-fly list for being unable/unwilling to follow basic safety instructions.
 
kalvado
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Re: Fines for Bag-Carriers in Emergency Evacuations?

Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:09 am

While fines, jail terms etc are a very simple and profitable way of doing things, how about some carrot instead of a stick.
Namely, what are the procedures to reunite people with their property once immediate threat is contained?
 
indcwby
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Re: Fines for Bag-Carriers in Emergency Evacuations?

Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:54 am

kalvado wrote:
While fines, jail terms etc are a very simple and profitable way of doing things, how about some carrot instead of a stick.
Namely, what are the procedures to reunite people with their property once immediate threat is contained?


That would be more well received. But then also focus should be on the corporate world of business travelers. Many who tell their employees not to leave their laptops unattended or risk of losing their jobs because of the data.
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MalevTU134
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Re: Fines for Bag-Carriers in Emergency Evacuations?

Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:55 am

kalvado wrote:
While fines, jail terms etc are a very simple and profitable way of doing things, how about some carrot instead of a stick.
Namely, what are the procedures to reunite people with their property once immediate threat is contained?

The one time I have had to evacuate through the slides (back in 1995 at good old Kai Tak from a CX 743), we were taken back onto the aircraft the next morning in small groups of 10-15 people (according to our original seating on board) and very kind flight attendants made sure that we got all our (and only our) belongings with us.
However, I think you are missing the point. The point is that it doesn't matter even a bit how, when or if I will get my belongings back. They are not worth risking my or somebody else's life. Don't get that? Then take the bus!!
 
lowfareair
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Re: Fines for Bag-Carriers in Emergency Evacuations?

Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:57 am

I can't see that being enforced until there is more education done. People are trained to grab their stuff when leaving the aircraft as they do that at the end of every flight; never being told otherwise before being in the middle of an incident is likely a big reason why they do it.

A good start to rectify the action would be a simple line to have in the safety demonstration. Something like "In the event of an evacuation, leave all carry-on baggage on the plane and it will be returned to you at the earliest opportunity". Get that hammered into people beforehand so it's at least bouncing around somewhere in their head before they are in the middle of evacuation chaos.
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Fines for Bag-Carriers in Emergency Evacuations?

Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:04 am

indcwby wrote:
kalvado wrote:
While fines, jail terms etc are a very simple and profitable way of doing things, how about some carrot instead of a stick.
Namely, what are the procedures to reunite people with their property once immediate threat is contained?


That would be more well received. But then also focus should be on the corporate world of business travelers. Many who tell their employees not to leave their laptops unattended or risk of losing their jobs because of the data.

You must be joking. If state-of-the-art encryption can't protect your data, then you leaving your laptop "attended" (does that mean taking it with you to the bathroom?) can't either. And if your worry is about losing the data, well...ever heard of laptops crashing? Backup, backup, backup....
 
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yeogeo
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Re: Fines for Bag-Carriers in Emergency Evacuations?

Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:29 am

Check out the footage. Many evacuees with bags - even one with a roller bag! (AA 383, ORD, Oct 2016)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTC-8duZXOk
 
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spiah
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Re: Fines for Bag-Carriers in Emergency Evacuations?

Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:58 am

There seems to be such an obsession with crucifying luggage carriers. Make it easier to reunite with bags after an incident and I bet you'll see fewer and fewer people try to carry them out with them. Also realize that people in shock/panic don't necessarily think about what they're doing in the heat of the moment.


Side question: Roller-bags or opening bins is one thing, but as someone who always keeps a small backpack (really just passport, medicine, documents, and some snacks) under the seat in front of them, is it really an issue to leave the aircraft with said bag if I am not impeding others by doing so?
 
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Goodbye
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Re: Fines for Bag-Carriers in Emergency Evacuations?

Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:24 am

So who do you expect to police such a crackdown? Have a group of people stationed at each airport whose job it is to go to any evacuating aircraft and hand out fines as people slide down with their belongings in a state of complete panic?
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neomax
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Re: Fines for Bag-Carriers in Emergency Evacuations?

Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:25 am

spiah wrote:
There seems to be such an obsession with crucifying luggage carriers. Make it easier to reunite with bags after an incident and I bet you'll see fewer and fewer people try to carry them out with them. Also realize that people in shock/panic don't necessarily think about what they're doing in the heat of the moment.


Side question: Roller-bags or opening bins is one thing, but as someone who always keeps a small backpack (really just passport, medicine, documents, and some snacks) under the seat in front of them, is it really an issue to leave the aircraft with said bag if I am not impeding others by doing so?


This is the real answer.
 
indcwby
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Re: Fines for Bag-Carriers in Emergency Evacuations?

Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:28 am

MalevTU134 wrote:
indcwby wrote:
kalvado wrote:
While fines, jail terms etc are a very simple and profitable way of doing things, how about some carrot instead of a stick.
Namely, what are the procedures to reunite people with their property once immediate threat is contained?


That would be more well received. But then also focus should be on the corporate world of business travelers. Many who tell their employees not to leave their laptops unattended or risk of losing their jobs because of the data.

You must be joking. If state-of-the-art encryption can't protect your data, then you leaving your laptop "attended" (does that mean taking it with you to the bathroom?) can't either. And if your worry is about losing the data, well...ever heard of laptops crashing? Backup, backup, backup....


One would think. But then if you ask any IT Security Professional, an encrypted laptop can still hacked if it's not shutdown completely.
Direct memory access attacks:
Malicious devices can be used to manipulate or read your computer’s RAM, aka random access memory storage.

And yes, there's companies that tell people not to leave their laptops unattended. And make you sign contracts saying so. They say because they don't want proprietary data falling into the wrong hands.

I'm not saying that people should take them with them, but if you are going to extend punishment via fines/jail time, just don't forget to include the corporations who create this environment.

On a side note, I coincidentally know someone who was on the EK 521 (TVM-DXB) crash landing and even talked about the video of everyone grabbing their carry-on bags. His excuse was having to deal with local authorities for not having their passports in hand and in fear of being deported or losing their jobs. Apparently, trying to live a better life was greater than living period and was worth the risk.
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ltbewr
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Re: Fines for Bag-Carriers in Emergency Evacuations?

Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:48 am

First of all, your passport, wallet, ticket info, phone, critical drugs, maybe a UBS storage for critical laptop/tablet info, should be on your person in your pocket or a belt/neck pouch or a small purse/bag so if during your flight an emergency or crash landing occurs, you won't need your main carry on bag at all and not interfere with your and other's safe evacuation. As to employer and government owned computers and papers, there should be a defined exemption if not with you if an emergency or evacuation event.
 
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TheRedBaron
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Re: Fines for Bag-Carriers in Emergency Evacuations?

Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:57 am

Its beyond me how people can value more things that can be bought than things that can't, like your health, your life etc..I have been to 2 evacuations in 40 years of flying and even taking off the shoes to jump into the slides is a "problem" for some people....jeeezzz

TRB
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AirlineCritic
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Re: Fines for Bag-Carriers in Emergency Evacuations?

Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:04 am

I think it would be helpful for the ICAO, FAA etc to pass a rule that sets expectations on passengers being promptly united with their belongings when possible. That, and a fine/making it crime to take luggage in case of *slide* evacuations would help in with a carrot and a stick.

However, nothing will solve this issue entirely. It is largely a problem of psychology in a traumatic situation. Faced with a crash or even an overrun, people will do odd things, and will not have all their brain power and logic usable.

As an aside, *I* think the roller-type handluggage should be prohibited entirely. Or, at the very least, checkin in a luggage that fits current hand luggage size restrictions should be free of charge. Or the same price as handluggage, charge for both! The airlines, given their pricing model, have driven a model where everybody drags supersized hard objects into the cabin. Even if they might not be dragging on the chutes during an evacuation, the luggage will rain down in a crash on top of the passangers, and will surely cause additional injuries. There is *no* reason that junk needs to be above our heads, instead of the cargo compartment where it belongs.

There, I've said it.
 
vahancrazy
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Re: Fines for Bag-Carriers in Emergency Evacuations?

Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:20 am

TheRedBaron wrote:
Its beyond me how people can value more things that can be bought than things that can't, like your health, your life etc..I have been to 2 evacuations in 40 years of flying and even taking off the shoes to jump into the slides is a "problem" for some people....jeeezzz

TRB


that's intresting!
I was under the impression that just ladies with high shoes needed to remove their shoes, is that not true?
I am an average man and I wear most of the time boots. I could remove them if required but I would definitely waste many valuable seconds for my life (especially if there might be some panic due to fire or similar) and possible slow down the other people too.
 
vahancrazy
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Re: Fines for Bag-Carriers in Emergency Evacuations?

Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:24 am

I am quite negative. I do not think people can be educated enough to prevent the case.
Therefore, only way to avoid people taking trolleys / hand luggage is to prohibit them onboard (if you are happy to store all the Li-on batteries downstairs). Average Joe could possibly even accept it, businessmen... no way!
 
mast2407
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Re: Fines for Bag-Carriers in Emergency Evacuations?

Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:33 am

spiah wrote:
There seems to be such an obsession with crucifying luggage carriers. Make it easier to reunite with bags after an incident and I bet you'll see fewer and fewer people try to carry them out with them. Also realize that people in shock/panic don't necessarily think about what they're doing in the heat of the moment.


I was part of an emergency evacuation of a double decker bus last week (was on fire, everyone fine). I had 2 bags with me, one was an over the head bag, (a satchel/man bag), this was empty, the other (a back pack) had my laptop and wallet and everything of any value in it. I grabbed the satchel, and left the back pack. Not for any good reason but for the fact that it was in my visual range. The back pack was was in the overhead locker, and completely forgot I even had it until I saw it being offloaded by the fire brigade crew.

I can confirm what you’re saying, there is very little thought involved in the actions of a passenger in an evacuation. In saying that, objects of value (passport, documents), particularly when flying, should be always kept on the person, in a pocket or bumbag. Things like theft, or a passenger being left without documents can escalate scenarios quite radically when dealing with airport security. Even with identification in the event of an plane crash, having a passport physically on your person can speed up identification and prevent confusion. (I’ve read reports of survivors not even being able to remember their own name in the aftermath of plane crashes).
 
77H
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Re: Fines for Bag-Carriers in Emergency Evacuations?

Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:04 am

spiah wrote:
There seems to be such an obsession with crucifying luggage carriers. Make it easier to reunite with bags after an incident and I bet you'll see fewer and fewer people try to carry them out with them. Also realize that people in shock/panic don't necessarily think about what they're doing in the heat of the moment.


Side question: Roller-bags or opening bins is one thing, but as someone who always keeps a small backpack (really just passport, medicine, documents, and some snacks) under the seat in front of them, is it really an issue to leave the aircraft with said bag if I am not impeding others by doing so?


People “crucify” those who would take their luggage in an emergency are potentially threatening the lives of others. The time it takes for people to grab bags from overheads could be preventing others from making it when seconds can make all the difference.

While I think stiff penalties could deter the behavior how would it be enforced? In an emergency people are trying to get out, not keep tabs what others are doing. Fines and or criminal charges only work if they can be proved in a courtroom. At least in the US.

Someone floated locking mechanisms for the OBs after the AA383 incident. Could work but it would add weight and is one more thing that can malfunction.

77H
 
rbavfan
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Re: Fines for Bag-Carriers in Emergency Evacuations?

Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:42 am

spiah wrote:
There seems to be such an obsession with crucifying luggage carriers. Make it easier to reunite with bags after an incident and I bet you'll see fewer and fewer people try to carry them out with them. Also realize that people in shock/panic don't necessarily think about what they're doing in the heat of the moment.


Side question: Roller-bags or opening bins is one thing, but as someone who always keeps a small backpack (really just passport, medicine, documents, and some snacks) under the seat in front of them, is it really an issue to leave the aircraft with said bag if I am not impeding others by doing so?


Except that looking at footage over the years. Taking carry on bags & such is a newer issue. Old video shows people do it in much larger numbers now. Also when they get ready for the emergency landing the FA's not ego take of certain kinds of shoes due to possibility of deflating the slides and to NOT TAKE any items with you. So how do they forget that? It's because they do not bother listening to the announcement's because we are all two self centered and entitled these day to give a damn.
 
chrisMUC
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Re: Fines for Bag-Carriers in Emergency Evacuations?

Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:56 am

Those people are in panic and not professionals trained for the situation.
That said - at least in Europe - it would be impossible to fine them or even send them to jail.

Many people on a.net are to much into punishing people all the time - at least for my taste.
Passenger makes a mistake, send him/her to prison.
Pilot makes a mistake, send him/her to prison, take his license, fire him/her, etc.
That's not how you make aviation safer.
 
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cougar15
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Re: Fines for Bag-Carriers in Emergency Evacuations?

Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:58 am

yeogeo wrote:
Check out the footage. Many evacuees with bags - even one with a roller bag! (AA 383, ORD, Oct 2016)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTC-8duZXOk


Interesting that at or about 02:51, you see a cabin crew member , AA lanyard around his neck telling/yelling (at) people to get back, WITH his carry on in his hand......
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brad1823
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Re: Fines for Bag-Carriers in Emergency Evacuations?

Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:22 am

Well fines are in place to deter people from repeating their actions, the same with prison scentances. The fact is it is very unlikely that a passenger will be involved in two emergency evacuations.

People also do strange things in a panic and in the heat of the moment I don’t think people are going to care or think about fines or prison scentances. I know the only thing I would care about is my safety.

I think people’s biggest fear is lossing their belonging such as passport or wallet. As others have said there needs to be a proper system in place to recover belongings.

That being said I don’t really have a problem with people getting their small bags from under the seat infront of them if they can do it quickly and not block any one. Roller bags or getting anything from the over head bins are another situation though.
 
Clydenairways
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Re: Fines for Bag-Carriers in Emergency Evacuations?

Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:16 am

yeogeo wrote:
“Apparently the threat of death by incineration fueled by thousands of gallons of jet fuel isn’t enough of a deterrent to stop passengers from taking time to grab carry-on bags during an emergency evacuation.” Sara Nelson, Association of Flight Attendants

https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/ohare ... acuations/

Ms Nelson also said that “The FAA should use existing laws to crack down on passengers endangering themselves and countless others as they put computers, cosmetics and clothing ahead of human life.”
An un-named FA suggested further fines, per the article.

yeo


Fines are never going to happen. Imagine trying to fine a passenger after they have been in an accident that may have been caused by the airline. You will get nowhere with this in court.

The biggest problem is caused by airlines themselves charging for hold luggage. This has forced the cabin baggage problem we see today. Back in the 70's there was just a coat or a bag of duty free in the overhead.
 
afgeneral
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Re: Fines for Bag-Carriers in Emergency Evacuations?

Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:06 am

Maybe locking overhead bins until landing could work. See a FA to ask for the bin to be temporarily unlocked during the flight if you really need something.
 
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JBusworth
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Re: Fines for Bag-Carriers in Emergency Evacuations?

Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:08 am

afgeneral wrote:
Maybe locking overhead bins until landing could work. See a FA to ask for the bin to be temporarily unlocked during the flight if you really need something.


Not sure this would work. No floor storage at emergency rows means items overhead or blocking the exit. If the overhead lockers were locked, id put my bags at my feet during the flight.
 
AvroLanc
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Re: Fines for Bag-Carriers in Emergency Evacuations?

Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:09 am

We seem to focus too much on punative steps here. Not to sure about other parts of the world but here in North America charges would never stick as you would claim "could not think clearly due to overwhelming stress and environmental factors". From my observations of
flying over the last 30 years, the problem appears to be the size of carry on. This has been created by the industry in cost saving measures. What ever happened to those baggage check racks before boarding? Sorry to digress that is likely a whole other topic. I agree with above writers you should always have travel docs and meds on you at all times and carry a small personal bag not luggage for 10 day trip or entire business presentation.
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zkojq
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Re: Fines for Bag-Carriers in Emergency Evacuations?

Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:47 am

I support fines for bringing big bags/luggage off during an evacuation. If for no other reason, the first time this happens the media will be plastered with stories of some poor "innocent" nobody getting fined $2,000 for bringing their massive roller bag down the slide. The media coverage will hopefully raise awareness of why bringing out massive bags during an evacuation is unsafe. After a few years worth of accidents, people will start to get the message.

Also, when someone takes a big roller bag down the slide and it hits someone else at the bottom, there should be a set schedule of compensation for the victim who gets injured. Maybe all related healthcare expenses + $1,000 for every kilogram that the rollerbag weighs?

indcwby wrote:
One would think. But then if you ask any IT Security Professional, an encrypted laptop can still hacked if it's not shutdown completely.
Direct memory access attacks:
Malicious devices can be used to manipulate or read your computer’s RAM, aka random access memory storage.


Why wouldn't the laptop be shutdown for landing? Cabin crew tell you to put them away for takeoff/landing, so shutting them down is the logical extension of that.

ltbewr wrote:
First of all, your passport, wallet, ticket info, phone, critical drugs, maybe a UBS storage for critical laptop/tablet info, should be on your person in your pocket or a belt/neck pouch or a small purse/bag so if during your flight an emergency or crash landing occurs

:checkmark: This is just plain common sense.

77H wrote:
While I think stiff penalties could deter the behavior how would it be enforced? In an emergency people are trying to get out, not keep tabs what others are doing. Fines and or criminal charges only work if they can be proved in a courtroom. At least in the US.

There's usually plenty of footage of evacuations from passengers themselves (which invariably makes it onto TV/Youtube etc) and most new aircraft have an internal CCTV system.

cougar15 wrote:
Interesting that at or about 02:51, you see a cabin crew member , AA lanyard around his neck telling/yelling (at) people to get back, WITH his carry on in his hand......

Do we know that it is his? Maybe he found it at the bottom of the slide and was clearing it out of the way?

brad1823 wrote:
I think people’s biggest fear is lossing their belonging such as passport or wallet. As others have said there needs to be a proper system in place to recover belongings.


This would be a great step for sure.
First to fly the 787-9
 
mikeinatlanta
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Re: Fines for Bag-Carriers in Emergency Evacuations?

Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:32 pm

If the airlines really cared they would stop with the massive OH bins, limit carry on (for real), and stop charging for a checked bag. Stop stealing from checked bags would be helpful as well.
Aircraft Maintenance Professional since 1979.
 
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ACCS300
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Re: Fines for Bag-Carriers in Emergency Evacuations?

Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:05 pm

afgeneral wrote:
Maybe locking overhead bins until landing could work. See a FA to ask for the bin to be temporarily unlocked during the flight if you really need something.


Or better yet, have a system where flight attendants could lock bins with a single switch in the event of an evacuation.
 
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yeogeo
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Re: Fines for Bag-Carriers in Emergency Evacuations?

Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:40 pm

zkojq wrote:
...When someone takes a big roller bag down the slide and it hits someone else at the bottom, there should be a set schedule of compensation for the victim who gets injured...


On this subject, what struck me when watching the video (in post 8) was the mishaps on the slides- people bumping into each other, turning backwards, falling over every which way, that and the fact that there are many people on the slide simultaneously was shocking (naive, I know)... and then to bring a roller bag into the mix! Ouch - that has to hurt! No wonder they are so many injuries in evacuations.

yeo
 
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Re: Fines for Bag-Carriers in Emergency Evacuations?

Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:16 pm

We could also stop charging so much foe checked bags. If people don't feel the net to carry on such largesse and cumbersome bags, the problem would be somewhat mitigated.
 
Samrnpage
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Re: Fines for Bag-Carriers in Emergency Evacuations?

Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:47 pm

It wouldnt be enforceable. Nobody knows how they will act during a crash, one of the first things people do is grab for comfort so to speak. There is also issues behind how serious of an incident does it need to be? A plane that accidently taxi onto grass thats perfectly fine do you get fined then if you grab your overnight bag?
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Fines for Bag-Carriers in Emergency Evacuations?

Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:50 pm

Just out of interest I weighed my messenger bag: wallets, cards, medications (quite a few - enough to share), phone, Kindle, charger, keys, snacks (candy) 2300 grams. If I were on a trip it could go up a thousand grams.

Rather than punitive measures an announcement that any large luggage would be confiscated.
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kalvado
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Re: Fines for Bag-Carriers in Emergency Evacuations?

Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:01 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Just out of interest I weighed my messenger bag: wallets, cards, medications (quite a few - enough to share), phone, Kindle, charger, keys, snacks (candy) 2300 grams. If I were on a trip it could go up a thousand grams.

Rather than punitive measures an announcement that any large luggage would be confiscated.

Since your messenger bag is over 5 lb, it will be confiscated and destroyed.
Nope, you're not allowed to remove your passport before destruction.
 
caverunner17
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Re: Fines for Bag-Carriers in Emergency Evacuations?

Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:16 pm

No rules are going to be enforceable in a time of crisis.

Also, has anyone actually died due to this? My understanding is that no one actually has.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Fines for Bag-Carriers in Emergency Evacuations?

Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:30 pm

kalvado wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
Just out of interest I weighed my messenger bag: wallets, cards, medications (quite a few - enough to share), phone, Kindle, charger, keys, snacks (candy) 2300 grams. If I were on a trip it could go up a thousand grams.

Rather than punitive measures an announcement that any large luggage would be confiscated.

Since your messenger bag is over 5 lb, it will be confiscated and destroyed.
Nope, you're not allowed to remove your passport before destruction.
Unduly snarky post

Actually I weighed it to see how far I need to lighten it up.

caverunner17 wrote:
No rules are going to be enforceable in a time of crisis.

Also, has anyone actually died due to this? My understanding is that no one actually has.


This is one of those things that might be called Accepted Wisdom or Urban Legends. Common sense would say that getting bags out of overhead bins could cause fatalities in the worst sort of survivable crashes, but common sense is often not reliable. There should probably be some tests.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
kalvado
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Re: Fines for Bag-Carriers in Emergency Evacuations?

Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:40 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
kalvado wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
Just out of interest I weighed my messenger bag: wallets, cards, medications (quite a few - enough to share), phone, Kindle, charger, keys, snacks (candy) 2300 grams. If I were on a trip it could go up a thousand grams.

Rather than punitive measures an announcement that any large luggage would be confiscated.

Since your messenger bag is over 5 lb, it will be confiscated and destroyed.
Nope, you're not allowed to remove your passport before destruction.
Unduly snarky post

In line with the rest of the post - and just showing how such regulations may bite a random person.
 
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hOMSaR
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Re: Fines for Bag-Carriers in Emergency Evacuations?

Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:58 pm

I agree with the few posters here who have commented that, when suddenly faced with an extreme and stressful situation, most people (having never faced such a situation before) are not going to be thinking about laws / policies / previous announcements, and are just going to do what they are going to do without really thinking about the full situation. They already announce, during the pre-flight safety briefing, to leave all carry-on bags behind in an evacuation. Adding a quadrillion dollar fine isn't going to make any difference, nor is announcing how you're going to be reunited with your bags after (not that the latter would matter; in a truly life-threatening situation, odds are the aircraft and any luggage inside would be destroyed anyway). People will do what they will do, and the only way to determine how someone will react when faced with an unfamiliar and frightening situation is to put them in that situation, not to pass laws or make announcements about it ahead of time.

So, to that end, I'm not sure what any new laws/regulations would accomplish, other than to make people not involved in the emergency feel better about themselves.
I was raised by a cup of coffee.
 
qf002
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Re: Fines for Bag-Carriers in Emergency Evacuations?

Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:00 pm

yeogeo wrote:
On this subject, what struck me when watching the video (in post 8) was the mishaps on the slides- people bumping into each other, turning backwards, falling over every which way, that and the fact that there are many people on the slide simultaneously was shocking (naive, I know)... and then to bring a roller bag into the mix! Ouch - that has to hurt! No wonder they are so many injuries in evacuations.


I'm wondering what impact this could (or should) have on the way evacuation capacity is measured/tested. It's all well and good proving that 500 people can get off in under 90 seconds but what about 500 people plus 500 large suitcases?
 
FGITD
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Re: Fines for Bag-Carriers in Emergency Evacuations?

Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:26 pm

qf002 wrote:

I'm wondering what impact this could (or should) have on the way evacuation capacity is measured/tested. It's all well and good proving that 500 people can get off in under 90 seconds but what about 500 people plus 500 large suitcases?


The manufacturers and aviation authorities will never take that into account. It's not important in an emergency evacuation.

Perhaps they'll take it into consideration to figure out a way to stop it, but that's it.



It's like saying homes need to be built fireproof enough to give the owner time to remove all their belongings.
 
kalvado
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Re: Fines for Bag-Carriers in Emergency Evacuations?

Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:27 pm

qf002 wrote:
yeogeo wrote:
On this subject, what struck me when watching the video (in post 8) was the mishaps on the slides- people bumping into each other, turning backwards, falling over every which way, that and the fact that there are many people on the slide simultaneously was shocking (naive, I know)... and then to bring a roller bag into the mix! Ouch - that has to hurt! No wonder they are so many injuries in evacuations.


I'm wondering what impact this could (or should) have on the way evacuation capacity is measured/tested. It's all well and good proving that 500 people can get off in under 90 seconds but what about 500 people plus 500 large suitcases?

And what is so special about 90 seconds anyway?
Sounds like more or less random number. 90 seconds is pretty fast; but why not aim at 60 or 120, why 90 was chosen? Something may explode 30 seconds after evacuation started, or it may take 5 minutes for things to go north. Or problem can be contained without actually endangering anyone in the cabin to begin with...
 
Alias1024
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Re: Fines for Bag-Carriers in Emergency Evacuations?

Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:45 pm

ACCS300 wrote:
afgeneral wrote:
Maybe locking overhead bins until landing could work. See a FA to ask for the bin to be temporarily unlocked during the flight if you really need something.


Or better yet, have a system where flight attendants could lock bins with a single switch in the event of an evacuation.

I don’t think locking bins will help. When the evacuation occurs people will just waste time and clog the aisle trying to rip the door off the bin to get their bag, or stand in the aisle trying to waive down a flight attendant to unlock the bin because they “need” what’s in their bag.
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
Italianflyer
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Re: Fines for Bag-Carriers in Emergency Evacuations?

Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:42 pm

"I don’t think locking bins will help. When the evacuation occurs people will just waste time and clog the aisle trying to rip the door off the bin to get their bag, or stand in the aisle trying to waive down a flight attendant to unlock the bin because they “need” what’s in their bag.[/quote] -Alias 1024

Not to mention many people place 'high value' items (laptops, tablets, media players, bags with medications etc) under the seat anyway.
As much as I respect Ms. Nelson, I disagree we can regulate ourselves out of bad behavior. Exhibit A: how many people try and sneek a smoke or vape in the lav each day.
 
jeffrey1970
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Re: Fines for Bag-Carriers in Emergency Evacuations?

Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:55 pm

spiah wrote:
There seems to be such an obsession with crucifying luggage carriers. Make it easier to reunite with bags after an incident and I bet you'll see fewer and fewer people try to carry them out with them. Also realize that people in shock/panic don't necessarily think about what they're doing in the heat of the moment.


Side question: Roller-bags or opening bins is one thing, but as someone who always keeps a small backpack (really just passport, medicine, documents, and some snacks) under the seat in front of them, is it really an issue to leave the aircraft with said bag if I am not impeding others by doing so?


I think they have to tell everyone not to carry any bags with you in the case of an emergency because they only have a little over a minute to get everyone off if there is a fire. If they let people take small bags with them there would be arguments as to what constitutes a small bag.
God bless through Jesus, Jeff
 
qf002
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Re: Fines for Bag-Carriers in Emergency Evacuations?

Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:58 pm

FGITD wrote:
The manufacturers and aviation authorities will never take that into account. It's not important in an emergency evacuation.


It will seem pretty important if/when people die in an emergency because they couldn't get off the plane fast enough due to other passengers blocking aisles/exits with their bags.

It will seems so obvious in hindsight, and sadly it will probably take a serious incident (hopefully not too serious) for any real action to be taken.
 
FGITD
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Re: Fines for Bag-Carriers in Emergency Evacuations?

Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:00 pm

qf002 wrote:
FGITD wrote:
The manufacturers and aviation authorities will never take that into account. It's not important in an emergency evacuation.


It will seem pretty important if/when people die in an emergency because they couldn't get off the plane fast enough due to other passengers blocking aisles/exits with their bags.

It will seems so obvious in hindsight, and sadly it will probably take a serious incident (hopefully not too serious) for any real action to be taken.



Unfortunately, I think you're right.

As terrible as it would be, I'd be curious to see how the industry would proceed if deaths occurred due to bags being carried off in an evac. The manufacturer would blame the airline, who would blame the passengers.
 
MKIAZ
Posts: 287
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Re: Fines for Bag-Carriers in Emergency Evacuations?

Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:06 pm

The problem with fines/criminalizing it would be intent. I think the issue here really is that people aren't thinking to themselves "screw those people behind me, my bag is worth more than their life". They probably haven't paid attention to the safety briefing in 20 years, and their first normal instinct when leaving somewhere is to take their stuff with them.

There should probably be some better education on the topic for passengers. Sadly I don't think anything will really happen until there is an instance where people actually die because of it.

As for punishing the bad passengers who do this, I think the most efficient method would be to have some language in the COC that disobeying crewmember instructions during an emergency situation results in forfeiture of all compensation related to the incident and any legal claim against the airline.
 
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rikkus67
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Re: Fines for Bag-Carriers in Emergency Evacuations?

Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:16 pm

Simple rule for myself: Wallet, Passport, and Phone on my body. F*** everything else in an emergency evac.
AC.WA.CP.DL.RW.CO.WG.WJ.WN.KI.FL.SK.ACL.UA.US.F9
 
HeeseokKoo
Posts: 831
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 5:54 pm

Re: Fines for Bag-Carriers in Emergency Evacuations?

Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:24 pm

ltbewr wrote:
First of all, your passport, wallet, ticket info, phone, critical drugs, maybe a UBS storage for critical laptop/tablet info, should be on your person in your pocket or a belt/neck pouch or a small purse/bag so if during your flight an emergency or crash landing occurs, you won't need your main carry on bag at all and not interfere with your and other's safe evacuation. As to employer and government owned computers and papers, there should be a defined exemption if not with you if an emergency or evacuation event.

Pocket, which may not even exist for women's clothes, or seat pocket would work but small purse/bag won't be allowed for those sitting at bulkhead or exit rows if an incident occurs during take off or landing. Regardless, I support the fines/jail/penalty idea.

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